Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[JenniferJF]

Now I agree Jack could never just come out and say it himself explicitly given his position in their professional relationship because that could have been seen to be placing undue pressure on her but Sam did give him a couple of openings to say something - to give a hint, a sign - and IMO he let them pass on the belief that she would be happier with someone else, to let her go. It's not until it's clear that Sam was going to talk to him explicitly, and the implications of that, that he steps up and admits the truth to her.

I agree with this absolutely. Sam (intentionally I think though it's debateable) gave Jack several chances and openings in which he could have spoken up, such as the ring scene in Affinity or his living room in Lost City, and every time he deflected her, implying he was satisfied with the status quo.

Though I tend to think it was more than simply belief she'd be happier with someone else - that it was mixed with his own fear of loving and losing her and of even possibly being the cause of her death. But other than that, complete agreement here with Rachel.

[josiane]

Hmm, so you think Sam and Jack got together at some point in this timeline and it didn't work out?

I must say I never got this impression. I've always attributed a lot of Jack's resentment to the fact that he and Sam went nowhere, so to speak. I think that she got so distracted by the Aschen and Joe that she never gave Jack chance in her personal life, especially if he was the distrustful one, trying to convince her (and rest of the team) that they were wrong. I think they must have had some huge falling out in which they mixed professional reasons of their disagreement with personal ones, hurt each other and then Jack left and Sam turned to Joe. It probably happned right before or right after Jack was thrown out of the Oval Office. I just don't see their tension and regret as "I regret we screw it up" but rather "I regret that we missed our chance".

Personally, I think they did, but I think what you describe here is equally possible. But I think it happened much like Rachel described, and the thing that sways me to that idea is this:

On a slightly different note, I don't remember Jack being (or RDA playing him) quite as hostile to anyone else on the series, not even Kinsey or the fanatic guy from Red Sky.

That says to me that it really is something personal, and I think, as Bekki said, comparing that to the way we see Jack when Sam is due to get married to Pete shows that there's even more here. Granted we never see Jack and Pete together really, so we're only going on his interactions with Sam and he's trying very hard not to let her see his hurt because he wants her to be happy (or so he thinks), but I can't see him ever quite reaching that level of bitterness with Sam in another alternate future where she does marry Pete. Although granted the Aschen thing will have exacerbated it so the feelings of betrayal over that would get all mixed up in the personal ones.

The scene in the lab when Joe turns up and sees Jack also indicates that Joe and Jack knew each other; that there is a rivalry there (just in terms of body language); and that the point of contention is Sam.

It always irritated me that Joe effectively decides Sam is out of the mission and blackmails Jack into agreeing (it's a very controlling thing to do). But I've come to the conclusion since that the subsequent agreement by Jack and the look/words he exchanges with Sam over it are very much a silent communication of "we need to go along with this right now because we need the GDO; once we have it, up to you".

Sam's actions after Joe comes out of the terminal substantiate this for me. She basically tells him; forget it. She chooses her mission, her team and Jack over Joe in the instant she runs back into the terminal to help them.

Great catch!

I also agree with much of this:

Not that I think Sam necessarily doesn't want marriage and kids (cause I do think a part of Grace was about her unacknowledged subconscious desire for those things), but that here we see Sam putting the cart-before-the-horse again as we later see her trying to do with Pete as well. She knows that aspect of her life is unfulfilled so she tries to fulfill it rather than accepting the man she loves and building whatever life they can together.

Or, in other words, it's Sam trying to fulfill expected roles again rather than simply accepting and being the person she is.

Yes - and this is kind of what I had in mind when I said that this episode shows that part of Sam does want these things, although our Sam suppresses those desires for the most part - Grace shows us this. And I agree that Joe is a foreshadowing of Pete in this respect, so I can entirely see how she ended up marrying him.

I think in our own timeline there's a fine line between Sam being rejected (which I agree Jack never explicitly does reject Sam) and her feeling rejected by him. Clearly by Grace she was deeply unsure whether his feelings for her were simply friendship or not - and in fact she's too scared to put herself in the position of actually being rejected by him so never outright asks the real Jack until she's on the verge of marrying someone else (and Jack himself is making an effort to move on although she doesn't know that).

Now I agree Jack could never just come out and say it himself explicitly given his position in their professional relationship because that could have been seen to be placing undue pressure on her but Sam did give him a couple of openings to say something - to give a hint, a sign - and IMO he let them pass on the belief that she would be happier with someone else, to let her go. It's not until it's clear that Sam was going to talk to him explicitly, and the implications of that, that he steps up and admits the truth to her.

And I can't see Sam in the 2010 timeline being any different. I think she would only move on from Jack if she believed he didn't feel the same way about her anymore. Now whether like our Sam she'd ever had the courage to find out for certain...

*nods* Absolutely. Because while one of Sam and Jack's great strengths is their ability to communicate without actually saying anything, it's also one of their great weaknesses, that because they hardly ever use actual words, they can misunderstand each other horribly on occasion.

Anyway, Sam and Jack. Their relationship is so unlike anything we have seen from them before. Which, I think, means that something mujst have transpired between them that is unlike anything we have seen before. Although, I think there are glimpses of the tension from both Shades of Grey and The Other Side, both of which show Sam's reaction to Jack going too far, her disagreeing with his judgement, etc. So maybe Jack pulled a huge stunt to get Earth to see the truth. A stunt that Sam thought went way too far.

Oh that's a good idea - I hadn't thought of that but yes, I can just see that happening.

[JenniferJF]

That says to me that it really is something personal, and I think, as Bekki said, comparing that to the way we see Jack when Sam is due to get married to Pete shows that there's even more here. Granted we never see Jack and Pete together really, so we're only going on his interactions with Sam and he's trying very hard not to let her see his hurt because he wants her to be happy (or so he thinks), but I can't see him ever quite reaching that level of bitterness with Sam in another alternate future where she does marry Pete. Although granted the Aschen thing will have exacerbated it so the feelings of betrayal over that would get all mixed up in the personal ones.

See, I actually see the beginnings of that same sort of bitterness towards Sam (especially in, for example, the beginning of IgtbK, most of The Reckoning except for a bit at the end when they seem to 'forget' for a few minutes before remembering and slamming back into angst again, and most of Threads. So, add the professional betrayal (she disagreed with him - her teammate and mentor - and 'sided' with 'the other guys') to the personal 'betrayal' (at least, I think that's how it felt emotinally) and the professional distance we see in S8 and I can absolutely see them ending up like that.

Because - frankly - I think the angst and bitterness of that betrayal and of having never had anything would be worse than if they had tried to make something work and it had ended up not working (for whatever reason). Also, Joe's reaction to Jack (and Jack's to Sam, really) indicate to me Jack *still* owns Sam - effectively - and she still owns him. Even in that alternate timeline of 2010, despite her being married to Joe and all the bitterness, the core of Sam and Jack's relationship remains. If they had gotten together and then broke up, I think it would have been a more complete breakup than the bitterness of never having gone foreward simply drawn out years into the future.

But all IMHO, of course

[Cagranosalis]

I had a stack of MQs lined up but gave up on them. Suffic e to say I think everyone has made some wonderful points here.


I, personally, love alternate timelines because they get to give us a glance of what could be and, well, exploring the "What if" is always fascinating to me.

It's interesting that this episode creates a paradox. OK... *hands out AU asprin* ...what I mean is, it's clear that in the original timeline Jack is highly suspicious of the Aschen. Perhaps it's a case of "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is" but, anyway, for whatever reason in the orignial timeline the rest of his team don't have the same scepticism. I could speculate forever about the whys and wherefores of that but I think, for Sam at least (who is normally a lot more likely to follow Jack's lead) some of that has to do with Joe.
Without the benefit of the warning note, there's no basis to Jack's suspicions; Daniel tends to disagree with him anyway but Sam? Well maybe she allowed her personal feelings for Joe to sway her from "believing" Jack. In the orignal timeline, things come to a head, something happens to make Jack estranged from the rest of them but to take it personallly on Sam. I don't know if they did have a moment. Maybe he retired (which is hinted he'd do in 2001 and then made a move for Sam and there was a bit of a triangle there and she had a choice and she chose Joe - professionally and personally. And perhaps this is why Jack's reaction towards Joe is particularly hostile; in essence not only did the man win his girl but he won her loyalty causing her to reject Jack (as Jack would undoubtedly see it) and, actually, had Sam not been so luvved up, she might have been a little more suspicious too and Jack would have had the weight of her views to back him up and they might have found out exactly what the Aschen were up to.
In that reality Joe is actually, completely responsible for everything.

Flip realities to the new timeline. The note arrives and plants the seeds of doubt in everyone's minds, which means Jack's suspicions carry more weight to start with and they do investigate further and manage to claws themselves back from the jaws of disaster.

But is the original timeline hadn't existed, the note would never have been sent and the new timeline not established...so a paradox... oh are you getting a headache yet?

I love time travel stories.



A couple of other raandom comments:

Sam's reaction when Janet is telling her about her infertility. Outstanding acting from AT. She could have had histronics, breaking down in a classic overreaction TVworld way that people do when they're given bad news. But no, this was spot on and just heartbreaking and handled very sensitively.

I also think Jack's reaction she she tells him the news is quite lovely. He softens completely and, there's a moment there where the ice might have been broken but, Jack's not a man who fogives rasily and he obviously feels deeply and personally betrayed by Sam.


I also love the moment of betrayal; when Sam finds out her husband knew all about the sterilisation programme and realises what a dreadful mistake they have made. I'd feel more sorry for Joe at this point if he hadn't been so complicit in the betrayal of his planet. And, feeding in to what I said above about Sam having made a choice for Joe both professionally and personally, how awful must the betrayal have been for Sam? Not only was Jack - the man she'd turned her back on and hurt badly in the process - right after all, but the man she'd chosen when she turned her back on him - that she trusted and loved - was actually part of the problem.
Rachel said it but I think it's true and this is the point their relationship was over no matter what. Regardless of what Joe demanding Sam be kept out of it, Sam had already made her mind up about that.

And, finally, I love the fact they all die at the end. In a way, it feels more comforting that it should be this way, given that this is a reality that's about to be wiped out of existence.

[Petra]

But of course, there's the obvious disdain Jack shows for Sam's relationship with Joe. A disdain that, interestingly, we never see from Jack for Pete. I think this shows that something may have gone on between Sam and Jack, or that they were both aware, had talked about, or more likely had skirted around the fact that they could be together if they signe the treaty with the Aschen.

Nope, I still can't see their behaviour as a result of previous failed relationship. But I already explained it so no reason to repeat myself.

My take on Jack feelings about Joe and Pete.

I think Jack's disdain, as you put it, towards Joe is caused by 5 things:
1. Joe is a diplomat, politician - the exact kind of person Jack hates the most. Show me a politician in the series (except presidents) that Jack respects...
2. Joe is not only a random politician, but also an ambassador to the Aschen. He's sort of the face of the enemy in Jack's mind, the guy who probably played a big part in bringing Jack down and ignoring Jack's objections.
3. He took Sam away from him. Again, Sam's and Joe's agreement over the Aschen must have played a big part and I agree with whoever said that Joe was the type of guy to be a shoulder to cry on and comfort Sam when things between her and Jack were falling apart. I think Joe is a little like Daniel and Pete in that that he's good with managing and articulating his feelings - total opposite of Jack.
4. He took away Jack's team, so to speak. Daniel, Teal'c and Janet all seem to have left Jack to his own devices but apparently they were good friends with Joe. Jack subconsiously could blame him for their friendships.
5. Let's remember that it had all happened before Jack was forced to kill Sam, before Daniel died etc. - in other words, before all the angst started and before he started to think that he's the last guy who should be with Sam.

Now Pete...ok, so Pete was an extremely bad, but still, a cap. Someone who wears uniform and is in service of his country so Jack's likely to have more respect for him. Pete barely, if at all, knew Jack's (and Sam's) friends.
And finally, he and Sam started dating after all the angst and I guess Jack genuinely saw him as a better candidate for Sam than himself. He was younger, unburdened and unlikely to kill her , he was good with romantic gestures and showing his feelings and Sam seemed to be happy with him - I don't see Jack being hostile to the guy with this picture in his head.

Also, I'm assuming it would have killed Jack to see Sam agreeing with Kinsey that maybe Jack was only fighting the treaty so that SG1 would still be needed...if that ever happened. We know Kinsey would have hammered Jack for wanting to be the hero, even though Earth didn't need him anymore. If Jack had ever thought that Sam had agreed with Kinsey on that, I imagine he would think that betrayal was beyong reparable.

That's a very good point, I haven't thought of that.

Wheras, Sam would also think Jack had betrayed her. Subconciously at least, she would have known that the Aschen would have made it possible for her and Jack to be together, and though she might not have ever brought it up with him, she would have known that he knew the implications of that. And then Jack was so bitter toward Joe. What would Sam have thought then? If Jack knew that the Aschen could let them be together, but wouldn't open up to the idea, obviously (at least to her) she just wasn't that important to him. Heartbreak. But then to be so rude to the guy that she did end up with? To her, that would seem so unlike him.

Exactly, this is so unlike him. In fact in their scenes together, Jack is a perfectly polite gentleman and Joe comes across as a bit rude Neanderthal So again, the theory of them being together and breaking up doesn't work for me.

What also doesn't work for me is the bolded part. If that was the case, then Sam would have been a terribly selfish and naive person, who she is not. I don't think that she would ever expect him to ignore his suspicions and disregard his opinions on the chance that doing so could enable them to be together. One of the things I've admired the most about our pair is their lack of selfishness and staying true to their beliefs, no matter what.

[JenniferJF]

I also think Jack's reaction she she tells him the news is quite lovely. He softens completely and, there's a moment there where the ice might have been broken but, Jack's not a man who fogives rasily and he obviously feels deeply and personally betrayed by Sam.

And what I find absolutely beautiful is that, despite this, he *still*, effectively, comes when she calls.

I also love the moment of betrayal; when Sam finds out her husband knew all about the sterilisation programme and realises what a dreadful mistake Not only was Jack - the man she'd turned her back on and hurt badly in the process - right after all, but the man she'd chosen when she turned her back on him - that she trusted and loved - was actually part of the problem.

Which gets down to what I said in the other thread because, regardless of everything that had happened, Sam and Jack *still* act more like a couple here than she and Joe do. They are - essentially - still a team. Which is why I think Joe is so deeply jealous of Jack. Sam is still his more than she is Joe's. Formal vows and betrayal couldn't change that.

[Rachel500]

For me, I tend to think both scenarios of something happening between Sam/Jack and something not happening are equally valid interpretations from how Sam and Jack's relationship is portrayed. I personally end up somewhere in the middle, believing that they knew explicitly that they wanted to be together but ultimately didn't get together as an official couple because they drift apart and come to believe different things about the Aschen, which is compounded by Sam's friendship with Joe and later her relationship with him, and because of their inherent fears (of losing someone they love) anyway.

That said, I cannot see the team completely unsupporting Jack in his suspicions from the get-go. I think initially they would have perhaps been more sceptical and thinking Jack was just being Jack, but I also think they all would have thought that it wouldn't hurt to double-check. But there is no evidence. And this is the crucial difference between 2010 and 2001 for me. In 2001, there's evidence to back up Jack's suspicions both the note from the future and the buried Vyuan(?) city with the newspaper reports. In the original 2010 timeline there's nothing.

Moreover, I think you have to consider what else was happening apart from the Aschen. It's very likely that Apophis and the Goa'uld war happened just after the Aschen alliance (Jack mentions the war at one point). I personally think SG1 was broken up in the run up to the alliance agreement, Jack probably given another command, and the ties between them all stretched.

We see Joe in 2001 is eager to retain Sam's presence in terms of the Aschen and, if that too happened originally, what you end up with is Jack separated from Sam who is spending a lot of time with Joe who makes his interest clear and it's not unreasonable to assume that Jack may jump to conclusions about their relationship and how much Joe is influencing Sam over the Aschen.

However, I also firmly believe Sam tried hard to believe in Jack's position but without proof it was hard to continue to support him professionally. And I truly don't believe on a personal level she even considered getting together with Joe despite his interest until she believed Jack no longer felt anything for her/didn't want to know (in 2001 she's more receptive to Joe but this is after Jack has taken a step back after Entity and has practically encouraged her to get a life/date in Ascension).

I think fundamentally in 2010, there is a fundamental bitterness and anger that she didn't believe him about the Aschen; that she ended up with Joe; that she made a choice and there was a lost opportunity and a personal betrayal. And that she knew he felt that way about her before she got to the cabin. He blames her for what became of the possibility of them, and I think conversely, Sam believes that's unfair charge - that he didn't want her. The lines at the end about Joe have the feeling for me of an old argument.

In terms of Jack's feelings for Joe versus Pete. I do think Jack is much more scathing in his thoughts and his behaviour about Sam being with Joe than Pete. Fundamentally, I think in the original timeline, I think Jack views Joe as a romantic rival for Sam (and vice versa) because at this point there was still the thought they could be together at some point; this is compounded by their being on opposite sides of the Aschen debate. In the revised timeline with Pete, Jack is actively trying to let Sam go - and I think his opinion of Pete is that he tries not have one - so long as Sam is happy, he'll try to convince himself he's OK with her being with someone else. I think these underlying motivations behind Jack's approach to them both explains the difference more than anything.

I'm not sure I agree that Jack would have ended up with the same level of bitterness regarding Sam if she had ended up with Pete. His attitude towards Sam in Reckoning and Threads for me is partly driven by Jack trying to move his loyalty from Sam, the woman he loves, to Kerry, the woman he's with. I do think had they both ended up with "others" they would have drifted in terms of their friendship because the "what if" might have been too painful for them to face on a daily basis. And if Jack had ended up alone I can see him withdrawing as he tries to deal with his own loneliness, but I think he's self-aware enough to realise he had a hand in Sam's choice. But the level of bitterness 2010 Jack levels at 2010 Sam? I don't think so.

[Cagranosalis]

Hastily concoted banner by me!




Absolute Power: AKA It Happened In Daniel’s Mind Only!

Synopsis

SG1 arrive at Abydos and are taken by Kasuf into the desert where a wind spoke the name of his daughter. A tornado suddenly springs up in front of them. It whispers Daniel's name and when Daniel responds, the wind dies down and a young boy appears. He claims he is 'Shifu' and he is the Harcesis child. SG1 take him back to Earth where Janet confirms that the boy had nanites which helped him age prematurely but which have been rendered inactive. Daniel believes the alien from Kheb 'Oma Desala' has helped Shifu with the nanites and also to forget the Goa'uld genetic memory within his subconscious. Hammond says that the Tok'ra have requested they use the memory device to retrieve the information. They debate the ethics of asking the boy to go through with it but in believing that perhaps Shifu's adopted mother 'Oma' would be able to help him forget again, Daniel approaches Shifu, explaining the situation and why it is important. Shifu touches him and Daniel falls unconscious.
Daniel appears to wake in the infirmary. He realises that he has the Goa'uld knowledge. He and Sam quickly put together a plan for planetary satellites. As time passes, Daniel becomes more arrogant in his behaviour; making personal demands, sending Teal'c on a mission from which he does not return, demoting his team-mates involvement. Eventually a year after gaining the knowledge, Sam who has been kicked off the project visits him and claims she knows why; Daniel is planning to take over the world. He has her imprisoned and watches as Jack visits. Sam manages to convince Jack to visit Daniel. Daniel welcomes Jack and invites him to watch the launch of the satellites. In the control room, the launch is successful but when Moscow threatens to retaliate, having known nothing of the satellites construction, and the US government seems about to cave. Daniel takes control of the system. Jack tries to stop him but his weapon is useless as Daniel is protected by a Goa'uld forceshield. Daniel wipes out Moscow…
Daniel though is dreaming. Back in the infirmary, Janet watches over him as Jack wonders why he's in a coma. The Tok'ra Aldwin suggests they use the za'tarc machine at least to verify whether the child is Harcesis and to discover what he did to Daniel. In the test, Shifu confirms he is Harcesis and tells them he is teaching Daniel. As he explains why, Daniel himself appears having woken. He tells Shifu that he understands and the two see goodbye. Aldwin protests as it is evident Shifu is about to leave, and Sam notes she doesn't think they have a choice. Shifu turns into a glowing energy being like Oma and Jack tells Hammond to have everyone stand down as Shifu makes his way to the Stargate. SG1 watch as Shifu leaves and the wormhole blinks out.
Synopsis bu Rache500



Favourite Line

Jack: “Basically what it means is, that's it's always better to have a big long wick.”


Favourite moment

The bit where Jack shoots Daniel.



Review

Although I’m fairly meh about this episode, it is great to see the Harcesis storyline come to fruition and, by extension, Daniel’s arc in that respect be fulfilled too. It’s also good to see there’s a good reason why we can’t use the knowledge of the Harcesis after all (which actually, became a bit of a “so what” for me anyway since the Tok’ra are our allies and we have a treaty with them so, technically, we have all their technological knowledge and, anyway the Goa’uld pretty much steal and scavenge technology rather than create it.)
What I can’t reconcile is the bits that happen in Daniel’s dream; that Daniel would ever actually go that bad. He just would not, regardless of the stakes. He’s proven over and over again that, morally, he’ll always take the high ground. And yes, I know this is a vision implanted by Shifu to show what might happen but I still don’t really buy it and neither should Daniel. In any event the SGC seem to roll over and take Daniel’s word for it rather too easily which, again given the stakes and the fact that, historically, they’ve been forced into doing stuff they haven’t wanted to, I find a little hard. In essence I think so much time is spent telling the tale of Daniel’s dream that very little is given over to the actual plot of whether we should use this tainted knowledge to defeat an enemy – but then again, if they had doen so t would be a simple rehash of The Other Side I imagine.
Something else I don’t like about this episode is the fact that the whole team is really segregated throughout. I think there’s a couple of shots at the very start and very end where they’re all together but, aside from that there’s very little team interaction. Teal’c in particular, suffers from fading-into-the-wallpaper syndrome here; he doesn’t say much anyway but he’s pretty quickly dispatched in the dream sequence and barely heard from after that.
I’ll also grumble about the casting of Shifu. Not because he’s a bad actor (he isn’t) but because there’s absolutely no genetic resemblance to either of his genetic parents. Then again, there wasn’t in Maternal Instinct and that always bugged me too.
On the other hand, the things I liked about this episode, albeit somewhat shallow, was the chance to see them all (except Teal’c because, frankly, he’s just not around enough) out of uniform and off base in some different settings. And to really notch up the shallowness Jack, in particular, looks extremely, um, nice, in that blue shirt. And Sam must be the only person who can make an orange prison uniform look fantastic.
I also quite like the “what if” factor of the episode. Although this isn’t an alternate reality/timeline, I do like to see our heroes out of their normal situations and to explore alternative paths they may take and this episode does do that.


Implications for Sam and Jack

Uh, most of it happened in Daniel’s head so, um, none. Unless you count the fact that Daniel’s dream had a section of Jack going to see Sam in prison as somehow significant. Sam does say to Jack that her opinion used to mean something so that’s sort of shippy – or would be if it hadn’t happened in Daniel’s head only. Or maybe that just implies that, at least on some subliminal level (if not outright, although I happen to think he’s got an idea by now) that Daniel realises Sam and Jack have a special relationship.
There’s also a moment at the end where we see the Zatarc machine used and Sam directly references her time in it. When Shifu is having the Tok’ra device placed on him he doesn’t bat and eye but Jack winces, whether in remembered physical or emotional pain, who can say. And all that really proves is that I have ship tinted glasses and I can wear them when I have to!

[yessika]

Thumbs up on the review Cags!!

This episode is one of those that I really like but I don't love
What I like the best about this episode is that it shows (at least in my mind) that Daniel is not so clueless about Sam and Jack.
Although, it could be that Shifu knows about Sam and Jack and decides to include it in Daniel's dream (to enlighten him )

[Rachel500]

Absolute Power

Generally

I actually really like this episode although there are elements of it were deeply unexplored (such as the morality of what the Tok'ra and the SGC were attempting to do in using Shifu which is touched upon but not in any detail). I actually think they set up the reason why Shifu's knowledge would be important back in Crossroads in the discussion of why having a Goa'uld come across to the Tok'ra would be valuable - the two lineages had separated over 3000 years ago; that's a lot of genetic history/memory that a Goa'uld or a Harcesis would have that the Tok'ra don't.

However, what they don't make clear enough is the difference between the genetic memory which has all of the Goa'uld's traits and evil seeped into it, and Goa'uld knowledge. Presumably, the knowledge is buried in the genetic memory and to get to one you have to embrace the other (ie embrace the Goa'uld heritage) but that is not made clear.

The point of Daniel's dream is that no-one - not even someone who has Daniel's inner morality which is hugely strong - could withstand the evil of the Goa'uld genetic memory; that by asking Shifu to provide them with the knowledge in the memories, they would destroy him. (Or in other words, what they're planning to do in questioning him is stupid).

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's the point of the episode and as someone who has studied that in history, this resonates with me hugely.

I really love Shifu who's simply on a journey to learn about his mother but who in many ways triggers Daniel's eventual journey to Ascension himself by making him question the path he's leading.

Sam and Jack

I agree there isn't a lot here. Outside of the dream, they both seem a little uncomfortable around the za'tarc machine but hardly unsurprising.

Daniel's dream though does reveal that he's aware that Sam and Jack do have a connection; that Jack values Sam's opinion, that she is able to sway him, that Jack would always go to Sam when called even if the rest of the world thinks she's nuts.

But then I've never subscribed to the theory that Daniel is clueless about them especially by this point. He's an anthropologist and the people person on the team. I just think Daniel prefers to disregard/deny Sam and Jack's more personal feelings for each other primarily because that's exactly the approach they themselves have taken, but also because he's subconsciously scared of losing the security of SG1.

[Petra]

Absolute Power is one of my least favourite episodes of season 4, but not because I don't like it or think the ep isn't good but because the whole season is amazing and there is a whole lot of episodes I love even more

What I can’t reconcile is the bits that happen in Daniel’s dream; that Daniel would ever actually go that bad. He just would not, regardless of the stakes. He’s proven over and over again that, morally, he’ll always take the high ground. And yes, I know this is a vision implanted by Shifu to show what might happen but I still don’t really buy it and neither should Daniel. In any event the SGC seem to roll over and take Daniel’s word for it rather too easily which, again given the stakes and the fact that, historically, they’ve been forced into doing stuff they haven’t wanted to, I find a little hard.

Except IMO (and I know quite a few Daniel fans who agree) it's totally in character for Daniel. Out of all SG-1 members, present and future, Daniel is the most arrogant one (nothing wrong with that, I prefer my heroes to have flaws). He's incredibly smart and he knows it, he also has a tendency to get tunnel vision, be convinced that he's right and everybody else is wrong and out of SG-1 members he likes having power the most (his behaviour in Need, Maternal Instinct, Menace, Full Circle etc.). Of course he is a good guy and one of the reasons I love him so much is that he knows that power is his weakness (even if it wasn't, absolute power corrupts absolutely, as we learn here) and therefore avoids the situations where he could be tempted. That's a very mature behaviour.
Plus he totally abandoned high moral ground in the last seasons, when he started killing people in cold blood when it wasn't necessary at all.

I agree though that the SGC agrees with him a little too fast.
For many years I had trouble with believing that Goa'uld technology could be so powerful (because if it is, why don't they use it?) but now I think that maybe it was a mix of Goa'uld and Ancient technology.

Teal’c in particular, suffers from fading-into-the-wallpaper syndrome here; he doesn’t say much anyway but he’s pretty quickly dispatched in the dream sequence and barely heard from after that.

Yep, but this ep uses his absence particularly well, when his death becomes the last straw to drive Jack away.

I’ll also grumble about the casting of Shifu. Not because he’s a bad actor (he isn’t) but because there’s absolutely no genetic resemblance to either of his genetic parents. Then again, there wasn’t in Maternal Instinct and that always bugged me too.

I wasn't overly bothered in MI, but here I agree that it's weird and doesn't fit the backstory.

Sam and Jack..

I wish I could talk and talk about them, but Daniel episodes tend to have zero ship in them. I guess the only remotely shippy thing I can see is indeed Jack visiting Sam in prison when she's all but dead socially. People think she's insane, but Jack still comes when she calls him, and as evidenced by his later actions, believes her. Although you could argue that it's not shippy at all, cos Jack would come for every member of his team (he visited Daniel in Legacy after all) or that he's just a caring friend who already lost Teal'c and Daniel (in a manner of speaking) so doesn't want ot lose her too. I think though that visiting her took some guts and pulling strings.

I also agree that Daniel subconsciously picked up on the bond between them, but he may think it's a military thing.

[Rachel500]

Banner By Cags

The Light Recap: Jack is seeing Sam off on a mission to join Daniel and SG5 investigating a Goa'uld palace. He gives Lt. Barber of SG5 some money to give to Daniel. When Sam quizzes him about what the bet involved he deflects her but she works out that it was over whether she would join Daniel as they head into the gate room. Suddenly, as the wormhole blossoms out, Barber runs into the kawoosh, committing suicide. Daniel and SG5 are recalled from the planet.

Daniel has no explanation for what happened to Barber and Hammond sadly notes that sometimes there are no explanations. Daniel gets more and more frustrated at not being able to make progress with his translation on a device he found on the planet. He yells at Hammond and Jack has to step in. When Daniel fails to report in the morning, Jack goes to his apartment and finds him on the balcony, depressed and suicidal. Jack manages to get through to him and they return to the SGC.

Janet diagnoses that Daniel and SG5 are suffering from a chemical imbalance in their brains. The rest of SG1 return to the planet to try and find the cause. They find a young boy called Loren and are themselves transfixed by the light display Daniel had spoken about. Hammond contacts them to tell them SG5 are all dead and Jack returns to the SGC with samples. He soon shows the same behaviour as Daniel, snapping at Janet. When Daniel begins to crash, Jack races back to the planet with the other man.

Back in the palace and alive, Daniel switches the light off and Jack takes Sam and Teal'c out of the palace to investigate the whereabouts of Loren's parents. As he and Sam get into a heated debate by the beach, Teal'c finds graves. Back in the palace, Jack confronts Loren who reveals the inner workings of the light machine. As the others work it out, Loren confides his belief that his parents' death was his fault to Jack; Jack comforts him. Sam, Daniel and Teal'c confirm that the device can be dialled down incrementally allowing SG1 to return to normal and able to leave the planet in a few weeks – Loren included.

Favourite Lines:

Sam: Oh please, you think I'm keeping that up if we're stuck here forever?
Jack: Listen Major.
Sam: No way
Jack: That’s no way, Colonel.
Sam: I'm supposed to accept that. That's the way it's going to be?
Jack: That’s the way it is

Favourite Scene:

The beach scene between Sam and Jack although I also really like the Jack and Daniel balcony scene.

General Review/Analysis:

I’m not really fussed about this episode. I don’t hate it but it’s not on my own “like to rewatch” list. Despite the fact there are some nice moments, the whole story of addiction/abandoned kid just doesn’t appeal to me and, frankly, I think a large part of that is that I find Loren annoying.

I think partly it’s the casting because I think the actor is too old for Loren but partly it’s because the timing of Loren’s parents dying; his being on his own; stunted social growth; childish mannerisms all don’t seem to add up. I think if a slightly younger actor had been cast perhaps it would have come across better...

I also find the whole Jack-who-has-lost-a-son-and-blames-himself comforting Loren-who-has-lost-his-parents-and-blames-himself just too much of an obvious note to play. I will say that in the scene where Loren confides what happened to his parents, RDA’s acting is great and helps to sell it but...I find this episode too much writing by numbers, I guess.

There were a lot of interesting things they could have done with the scenario, a lot of interesting
avenues to have explored about their own suppressed emotions but ultimately it all becomes about Loren – and I think that’s why I’m not enamoured of it.

Sam and Jack

There are two stand-out scenes between them.

The first scene in the run-up to the suicide of Barber where they are so majorly flirting with each other as they banter about Jack’s bet with Daniel. I love the expression on Sam’s face when she realises she was the bet. There is a real vibe of two people who have a real friendship and really like each other.

What is interesting here for me is that Jack loses the bet as Sam decides against a weekend off to go look over the palace. She’s choosing work over a life outside work again. That Jack loses the bet kind of signals that he hoped he’d convince her to stay. Was there a fishing invitation maybe? Either way, although they’re joking about it, it underscores Sam’s position at this point in time is to place a priority on her work to the detriment of having a life outside of work. Which has to underscore to Jack that she’s valuing their professional relationship more than their personal regardless of the flirty, fluffy banter that they exchange.

The second scene is the one at the beach where in comparison to the opening scene of flirting here we have them effectively sniping at each other. Now, even considering that they are in withdrawal, the emotions that rise to the surface when they lose their inhibitions are quite revealing.

When Sam complains that it would give Jack an excuse to do nothing for a while, I think it’s in part her own resentment at not having a life that seeps through; that she can’t go fishing with him – and probably an inner fear/resentment that he goes without her and enjoys himself anyway; that he doesn’t need her to be part of his personal downtime.

She’s quick to point out that she’s not going to continue calling him sir/Colonel if they’re stuck there for life (my favourite lines), and yet Jack insists contrarily on the protocol. Now I don’t think for one moment if they truly had been stuck for life Jack would have insisted she call him sir/Colonel for the rest of their lives but that he does pull her up has to smart a little; has to feel a little bit like he’s rejecting the possibility of a personal relationship with her.

So the next lines as they grab each other are the most revealing; Sam wondering if she’s just supposed to accept that and Jack pointing out that it’s the situation right then – because that’s the raw truth of where they are in terms of status quo for Jack. Again, this has to suggest to Sam that Jack values their professional relationship more than any chance of a personal one; it’s an underscoring to her that he’s for the status quo.

What is done beautifully in this scene is the racheting up of the UST. Because as they grab each other and get physical with one another, there is just that beautifully judged moment after the yelling when it looks like they’re gazing at each other like they gaze at the light as though addicted, and it feels for a long moment (which is actually less than a second) that they might even kiss...

And then Teal’c interrupts them.

And just the look on their faces as they turn to him is classic.

[Pol]

Loved your write-up.



to this



Absolutely right on.

Oh, and it goes on (the look between them) for almost 10 seconds! LOL, cool.

[AstraPerAspera]

I confess. When I first watched it, The Light wasn’t one of my favorite episodes either. Then, after watching it again, it struck me just what a significant episode it is, with regard to understanding the S/J relationship at that point. And it’s that walk on the beach which is the pivotal moment, because regardless of what they seem to be talking about, it’s not *really* what they’re talking about.

What they’re *really* talking about is them--the whole conversation isn't *just* about their situation of being stuck on the planet...it's about their situation of being stuck in this kind of emotional limbo…and Jack realizes it when he tells her that she’s in withdrawal…and so is he….except it's not from the Light…it’s from each other.

Everything that’s happened since D&C has built up to this point. Because, while they may have mutually agreed to leave it in the room, the simple fact is, they couldn’t. Not really. And throughout the episodes immediately after D&C, it leaked out here and there: WoO… Watergate…Scorched Earth…they all contained moments when that something more that’s between them slipped through. And then there’s BtS, which is really what “The Light” is counterpoint to (even contrasting imagery…the darkness and dullness of the subterranean mine vs the brightness and beauty of the psycho-addictive light). After finally…finally!...being able to sit beside each other and admit to feeling feelings—only to have it all wrenched away from them when they returned to earth…it had to be the absolutely worst thing that could have happened to them to try to go back to how they’d been *before*, knowing, as they did, that those feelings were just (yes…) beneath the surface. So…yeah…frustrated much? I think so.

I also believe there’s some evidence which further supports this at the beginning of this episode as well, because, imho, Sam really doesn’t take Jack’s betting on her very well at all. It’s more of a disgusted reaction than a bemused one, imho…like his antics are getting on her nerves. And the fact that he’d even wager about her work-a-holic-ness suggests almost a similar frame of mind, I think, because while Jack might normally tease her about it, betting on it takes it to a whole different level of almost mocking it…and mocking her along with it. So I almost see them as starting out the mission at swords ends, a result of the tension they’re feeling that’s been building in the months since they thought they’d had to try to tuck those feelings oh so carefully back into their respective boxes.

And that’s why, by the time they get to that walk on the beach, everything has reached a boiling point. Yes, the addiction to the light itself precipitates their reactions, but what it boils down to, in the end, is their absolute frustration with having to live the way they’ve been living since BtS…because, with the rare exception of Serpent’s Venom, they’ve been *very* careful to keep out of each other’s way, and in fact in almost every episode between BtS and The Light, the two of them haven’t really worked together at all…they’ve been split up. So when Jack finally tells her that she’s going thru withdrawal…and that he is too…it’s withdrawal from each other that he’s talking about…and the fact that they literally grab onto each other there only highlights, imho, the need they have for each other, both emotionally and physically, and, like Rachel, I really wonder what would have happened next had Teal’c not interrupted them.

And it’s worth noting, I think, after this release…after this acknowledgement of what’s really bothering them…they’re better. In the next ep, The Prodigy, Sam and Jack are very comfortable again with each other. And in Entity (*sob!*), it’s that comfort level which is so blatantly obvious that the entity takes advantage of it by choosing Sam.

Anyway…that’s why I love this episode…the scene is brief, but it’s so significant…and so layered in its meaning…that it’s brilliant. Really.

[Nynaeve506]

EDIT: Er... I need coffee posted in the wrong thread... SIGH....