Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[josiane]

Firstly, welcome Florena!

Secondly, getting us back on track with the rewatch...

Banner by Regularamanda

Synopsis:

Daniel's former Archaeology professor dies in an explosion in his lab and Daniel returns to Chicago for the funeral, where he meets up with some of his former colleagues. When investigating further, he discovers that the canopic jar that Dr Jordan was working on has Goa'uld hieroglyphs on it. He brings it back to the SGC where they discover it was one of a pair (Isis and Osiris), and it contains a dead Goa'uld symbiote, but the other one is missing. On further digging they find that Dr Jordan's files had been wiped and he had discovered evidence that supports Daniel's old theories. Back at the SGC, Sam and Janet have discovered that the canopic jar was actually a stasis chamber and that the symbiote was alive until the seal was damaged, which means that there is potentially a second Goa'uld around from the missing jar. Daniel suspects his former colleague Steven Rayner, who has been behaving oddly. Sam, Janet and Daniel head off to Egypt in search of Steven, but when they get to the temple, they discover Steven's not the Goa'uld after all, but Sarah. She is Osiris, and she disappears in a pyramid ship that was hidden in the temple.

Favourite quote:

We have caught nothing. We are fishing.

Review/Analysis:

This is a very Daniel-centric episode, but it's great to see him plunged back into his former life and dealing with the culture clash between his academic past and his Goa'uld-fighting present. For me, the most interesting aspect of Daniel's character is this transformation that he undergoes, and this is one of the best episodes that really throws into sharp relief the life he left behind as compared to the life he leads now.

Of course this is the episode that sets up the Osiris storyline that will run through the next couple of seasons, continuing Daniel's rather unfortunate streak of girlfriends turning into Goa'ulds. The Sarah/Osiris storyline is rather like a less angsty re-run of the Sha're/Amaunet storyline, and I think does show up how Daniel has changed over the course of the last few seasons - he takes it less personally now, having been burnt so hard with Sha're (and Sha're is of course portrayed as the love of his life as opposed to Sarah who is just an ex-girlfriend ), and I think this does show how he's taught himself not to feel things quite so intently, over the course of all his experiences up to now. Which kind of leads in to his whole ascension storyline, as he starts to feel both that he can't win and also that he's losing himself a little - the way he reacts in Menace I think supports this too when his empathy really goes on a collision course with Jack's pragmatism.

Otherwise this episode is mostly notable for the almost complete absence of Jack and Teal'c. I'm not sure quite why it was decided to sideline them in this way, but it does make for a very different feel - much more of a mystery with the brains of the outfit rather than an action-focused episode. And I have to admit the scene with Jack and Teal'c at the cabin is highly entertaining, with Teal'c's boredom, mozzie-fighting, and quite incredible (for him) loss of composure in his pleading to be allowed to return to the SGC.

Implications for Sam and Jack:

Not much, aside from the fishing invitation. This is the second one (I think, unless I've missed one), and of course, since the last one we've had the events of Upgrades/Divide & Conquer, which imbues this one with a whole load of different context. Jack is quite clearly not expecting Sam to actually accept (and I suspect that if she had he would still have turned right round to Teal'c and invited him too), and Sam also quite clearly was never going to - both unlike the one in Nemesis where they really were teetering on the brink. So why does he do it? I think that it's his way of effectively saying that as far as he's concerned they're OK, and testing out that she feels the same, and the tone of both of their conversation and their mannerisms are decidely on the flirty side. It's kind of a microcosm of where their relationship is at at this point - they've left it in the room, agreed not to bring it up, but they both know it's there underneath and are trying so hard not to let it affect their interactions and make sure that even though they can't actually say anything (or not-say anything, as is more their style), they want to still somehow give each other some kind of clue that it is still there and it is still OK. It's sort of their code, I guess. Hence it not really being about the fish

[Cagranosalis]

Firstly... Welcome Florena

Implications for Sam and Jack:

Not much, aside from the fishing invitation. This is the second one (I think, unless I've missed one), and of course, since the last one we've had the events of Upgrades/Divide & Conquer, which imbues this one with a whole load of different context. Jack is quite clearly not expecting Sam to actually accept (and I suspect that if she had he would still have turned right round to Teal'c and invited him too), and Sam also quite clearly was never going to - both unlike the one in Nemesis where they really were teetering on the brink. So why does he do it? I think that it's his way of effectively saying that as far as he's concerned they're OK, and testing out that she feels the same, and the tone of both of their conversation and their mannerisms are decidely on the flirty side. It's kind of a microcosm of where their relationship is at at this point - they've left it in the room, agreed not to bring it up, but they both know it's there underneath and are trying so hard not to let it affect their interactions and make sure that even though they can't actually say anything (or not-say anything, as is more their style), they want to still somehow give each other some kind of clue that it is still there and it is still OK. It's sort of their code, I guess. Hence it not really being about the fish

I want to green you for that but I think I must have greened you for something else earlier... damn fridge!

That's quite beautifully observed. Although techincally it's might be a third invite since he invited her in Nemesis and then again (sort of) in Small Victories. Or did he? It was a kind of half invite wasn't it?
I think you're spot on with the observation about it's intent though. And no, I don't think he ever intended her to say yes and proabbly would have been a bit gobsmacked if she had. He makes far too big a deal of making it sound like the most uninteretsing thing in the world for her to do. The interesting thing is, flash forward to the next invite (Sight Unseen) and she openly refers to the fact he only asks when he knows she's going to say no. So yes, this is almost a water-testing exercise because they have been through a lot of tumultous emotions and I think they both need to know that it's ok for them to work together and just be around each other without longing for more. Any maybe, just maybe Jack's trying to recapture a little of the previous seemingly innocent (except we know it wasn't so innocent after all) flirtyness of their relationship. It's a strategy that does seem to work to an extent; at least right up until Entity, because the next few episodes - dream sequences and alternate realities aside - there's a lot more of the old flirty Sam and Jack about.

[JenniferJF]

Just piggy-backing on what Josi said (and Cag agreed with) on the fishing invite. The casualness in the way they do it here, before Entity, makes it so much more heartbreaking in Sight Unseen when she assumes he's just doing it perfunctorily and doesn't really mean it anymore

*sob*

Sorry.. just had to say

[Cagranosalis]

Just piggy-backing on what Josi said (and Cag agreed with) on the fishing invite. The casualness in the way they do it here, before Entity, makes it so much more heartbreaking in Sight Unseen when she assumes he's just doing it perfunctorily and doesn't really mean it anymore

*sob*

Sorry.. just had to say

Yeah, it's official. Jenn can angsterise anything, no matter how outwardly fluffy...

[JenniferJF]

Yeah, it's official. Jenn can angsterise anything, no matter how outwardly fluffy...

Aw... come on... This invite's angsty, too. Cause she has to say *no* no matter how much part of her might want to

It's funny, though, cause I actually want to make a fluffy sig for VDay (I've got an angsty one) and couldn't think of a single reallyl fluffy picture that was right to use (fluffy contextually within canon, of course ) So.. yeah. What you said. lol

[yessika]

I really liked The Curse...
I have always enjoyed the Osiris storyline and comparing it to the Sha're storyline.

And I enjoy Sam and Jack going back to the flirty side, it makes the angst that much more poignant

[Rachel500]

The Curse

Generally

I really don't like this episode. While the idea of Daniel reconnecting with his past and being faced with the old opposition to his theories versus what he knows and who he is now is a great idea, I just think this story just doesn't do that enough. It doesn't make that at the heart of it. Rather it's all a bit of a meandering tale to simply build up to the reveal of Osiris.

And I hate that it's a basis replay of Sha're/Ammonet. Because seriously; couldn't they have thought of a different scenario for Daniel than to simply give him a replay of a storyline he had already been through? But one that actually has less importance because it's an ex not a current love even? Originality would have been to have made Steven the Goa'uld - to have had Daniel face off over an old rival with Osiris not a lover.

And I hate that Jack and Teal'c are just allowed to go fishing and aren't recalled - because it's just unbelievable that there's a possible Goa'uld running around on Earth and they don't get recalled. And I hate that Jack is portrayed as not caring about the situation because all he wants his vacation and to hell with duty. Because that's not Jack.

Did I mention I don't like this episode?

Sam and Jack

Based on Tangent, I have to believe that Jack has been prompted to think about him and Sam, and I think while he expects her to say no, I think secretly the reason why he's been prompted into asking again is because he's testing the water - have you changed your mind?

Sam's reaction always comes across to me as slightly *off*, slightly snappish or surprised in a 'OMG I can't believe you're asking me that' kind of way. And for me I've put this almost angry/panicked very quick 'No' to be also because of Tangent - because she's almost lost him and her fears of getting involved, of losing him are driving her refusal.

I actually don't see this scene as flirty at all. For me it's very angsty.

[Tachyon]

The Curse is an alright episode for me. I kind of like the Osiris storyline, though I think the writers could have done more with the character. Poor Osiris was kind of left in the shadow of Anubis. Anywaty, Jack and Teal'C leaving the base was is still a funny scene for me, and fishing invitation to Sam is cute.

[josiane]

I want to green you for that but I think I must have greened you for something else earlier... damn fridge!

That's quite beautifully observed. Although techincally it's might be a third invite since he invited her in Nemesis and then again (sort of) in Small Victories. Or did he? It was a kind of half invite wasn't it?
I think you're spot on with the observation about it's intent though. And no, I don't think he ever intended her to say yes and proabbly would have been a bit gobsmacked if she had. He makes far too big a deal of making it sound like the most uninteretsing thing in the world for her to do. The interesting thing is, flash forward to the next invite (Sight Unseen) and she openly refers to the fact he only asks when he knows she's going to say no. So yes, this is almost a water-testing exercise because they have been through a lot of tumultous emotions and I think they both need to know that it's ok for them to work together and just be around each other without longing for more. Any maybe, just maybe Jack's trying to recapture a little of the previous seemingly innocent (except we know it wasn't so innocent after all) flirtyness of their relationship. It's a strategy that does seem to work to an extent; at least right up until Entity, because the next few episodes - dream sequences and alternate realities aside - there's a lot more of the old flirty Sam and Jack about.

Good point about trying to rewind a bit, almost, to get back to where we were, only knowing that they can't. So yeah, angsty flirting

And I hate that Jack and Teal'c are just allowed to go fishing and aren't recalled - because it's just unbelievable that there's a possible Goa'uld running around on Earth and they don't get recalled. And I hate that Jack is portrayed as not caring about the situation because all he wants his vacation and to hell with duty. Because that's not Jack.

Yeah I don't get why Jack and Teal'c were sidelined in this way - and I think I noticed it more watching this time than I had in the past. It's odd, and I can't think why, because you could still have the fishing invite and the comedy of Teal'c at the cabin and yet have them recalled for the business end of the episode. Oh well.

[Zoser]

*sigh* It's such a shame when trolls come along to try and ruin a perfectly decent conversation.

Anyway...



Earlier I was trying to formulate a reply because I picked a couple of bits from Col aga and Rachel's discussions that I wanted to agree with and examine in more detail. I was having a twisty wordy day today so didn't bother because I couldn't quite word it right but, heh, there you go, you've gone and said just what I wanted to say and the way I would have said it too.


Great review again Josi.


I do think there are paralells to be drawn between this episode and The Other Side not so much in the situation but in the conflict it generates between the team.
I think it's been said by more than one person that the thing they like about Jack and Sam is the natural progression and development of the relationhsip - i.e. it feels real. I can expand that here to include Jack and Daniel's relationship which we certainly see develop and change here. Actually there's almost a point where, as Jack's feelings for Sam come to the fore, his antagonistic relationship with Daniel gets more difficult. I don't know if the two are related of merely just conicidental character development for them all, but I can certainly understand why anti-shippers (especially those fond of the Jack and Daniel dynamic -and no, I don't mean slashers) find the whole Sam/Jack thing so distasteful if they relate the two. Personally I think it's just something that any relationship with anyone - friend or lover - they ebb and flow and sometimes you get on and sometimes you go through sticky patches. Jack and Daniel's friendship does go through a fairly extended sticky patch which seems borne mostly of changes Jack undergoes; Daniel is just being Daniel most of the time. Jack used to put up with much of Daniel's differing ways with a fairly good nature, only really calling him up on something when it became critical/dangerous, but his tolerance levels are really low at this point.
I think some of this is to do with Jack trying to put his own emotions in order - trying to prove to himself, almost, subconciously that he is still objective where his team - including Sam - is concerned. This explains why he seems able make a decision that would effectively kill Daniel so easily; it's not easy but he's convinced himself that it is and it would be for any of them for the greater good. Interestingly, even after Daniel does, actually die (well, ascend) his attitude is very much the same "we lose people all the time" get over it, although that happens long after he's actually had to face the emotional implications of losing someone he cares about.
I do think the Jack we see in these later S4 episodes is very much a man in conflict with his emotions and it governs a lot of his interaction with them all.

I know I'm very late to the dance but...
Yes, I agree there are ebbs and flows to Jack and Daniel's relationship. Usually Jack gets a lot less tolerant when the disaster of the week is about to hit the fan.

Have we remembered that the Gate was about to be over run but the Gadmeer ship. If Jack didn't do something they would all be dead.

[Zoser]

Favorite Quote:
Uh, Murray? Listen um... I'm really sorry I tried to bite you and I realize it was totally out of line... And uh... I was wondering if, uh, maybe I cou-I could come out now? Or-or-or I could just... stay in here... that-that's good too. It's just, uh, um, I'm getting a little dizzy...

Ship Factor:
Big Fat ZERO

General Comments:
This seriously lacking ship episode actually is a nice balance to things. I like the story, dialog, look and feel of it all.

I love how Willie Garson (Martin) steals every scene!

Let's not forget Jack watching TV in the motel room while Teal'c is enjoying the vibrating bed. He's watching the old scifi movie "The Day the Earth Stool Still" - Klatu Brada Nictu

[Petra]

I really, really like The Curse. It's probably my favourite post-season 3 Daniel episode. Yes, I agree with Rachel that not recalling Jack and Teal'c is unbelievable and that the story is a rehash of Sha're's arch; however IMO this is how Sha're should have been used. Not as a damsel in distress that we never hear of but as an enemy, somebody our team has to fight. It's the same story but done much better. Sure, we got more angst with Sha're because Daniel still loved her while Sarah is "just" his ex, but I'm willing to overlook it in this case. I thoroughly enjoy her as a villain, I think she's the best, most menacing System Lord (together with early Baal and Niirti) ever shown on the show. I like the glimpse into Daniel's academic past. Plus this is the Daniel I love the most, he's smart, confident, in equal parts tough and sensitive and working as a part of the team.
And then there's Sam, working on her motorcycle, being all smart and cool and human. And Janet leaves the base! Yep, I love this ep.

I'd love to say more about S/J fishing invitation, but really, josiane said it all much better than I ever could.

Implications for Sam and Jack:

Not much, aside from the fishing invitation. This is the second one (I think, unless I've missed one), and of course, since the last one we've had the events of Upgrades/Divide & Conquer, which imbues this one with a whole load of different context. Jack is quite clearly not expecting Sam to actually accept (and I suspect that if she had he would still have turned right round to Teal'c and invited him too), and Sam also quite clearly was never going to - both unlike the one in Nemesis where they really were teetering on the brink. So why does he do it? I think that it's his way of effectively saying that as far as he's concerned they're OK, and testing out that she feels the same, and the tone of both of their conversation and their mannerisms are decidely on the flirty side. It's kind of a microcosm of where their relationship is at at this point - they've left it in the room, agreed not to bring it up, but they both know it's there underneath and are trying so hard not to let it affect their interactions and make sure that even though they can't actually say anything (or not-say anything, as is more their style), they want to still somehow give each other some kind of clue that it is still there and it is still OK. It's sort of their code, I guess. Hence it not really being about the fish

I don't see it as angsty at all, for me this is one of the biggest *watch out!flirting!* scenes on the series and I absolutely love it.

[Rachel500]

Banner by Josiane

Serpent’s Venom Recap: Teal’c is betrayed by a fellow Jaffa, Rak’nor, on Chulak and taken as a prisoner of Heru’ur. SG1 are unaware and leave on a mission with Jacob/Selmak to stop Heru’ur and Apophis from meeting and making an alliance that will only strengthen Apophis’s status. As the meeting is taking place near to an old Tobin mine-field, the team plan to reprogram one of the mines (which randomly can change position and is set off by weapons fire) and set it to impact Apophis’s ship; Apophis will think Heru’ur is attacking and respond; no alliance. They take the cargo ship, reach the minefield and beam a mine aboard.

Teal’c meets Terok who will torture Teal’c, recording the Jaffa’s pain and anticipated recanting of his beliefs. Terok subjects Teal’c to the pain stick. In a brief moment of respite, Rak’nor tells Teal’c about his father Delmar who Teal’c spared as First Prime. Delmar had joined the Jaffa rebellion but died. Rak’nor is angry and bitter. Terok returns and taunts Teal’c; the torture continues but Teal’c refuses to submit. Terok gets angry and bats the recording device away as he leaves. Teal’c talks to Rak’nor about the Goa’ulds and seems to make progress with the young Jaffa.

On the cargo ship, Jacob has to do some fancy flying and the combination to reset the mine doesn’t seem to work just as Apophis and Heru’ur arrive and meet. Jack takes over while Jacob tells Sam and Daniel to try again. As Apophis and Heru’ur talk, Jacob translates the discussion where Heru’ur offers Teal’c as a gift to Apophis. Sam and Daniel reprogram the mine as they all come to terms with the news. Jack tries to convince Jacob that they should rescue Teal’c but Jacob tells him that Teal’c is expendable given the mission; that he knows that losses in battle happen. They deploy the mine just as Apophis agrees to the alliance. Sam tells Jacob that they should rescue Teal’c and Daniel notes that Heru’ur will need to transport Teal’c to Apophis’s ship. They come up with a plan to intercept the matter stream.

Teal’c tries to escape and Terok subjects him to the hand device; his continued torture of Teal’c drives Rak’nor to action. He knocks out Terok. The cargo ship attempts to intercept the matter stream between the ships but misses. Jacob says they have to get away despite Jack’s protests. The mine heads for Apophis’s ship as Apophis takes delivery of Terok. Apophis thinks Heru’ur is attacking and decloaks a fleet of motherships in position around Heru’ur. Heru’ur is destroyed and Apophis escapes. Jacob notes that there is a glider that escaped from Heru’ur. They contact the glider and discover it is Rak’nor and Teal’c, much to the delight of SG1 but the delight is tempered by the fact that Apophis will take control of Heru’ur’s fleet and is now an even bigger threat.

Favourite Lines:

Jacob: Obviously, I'll need Dr. Jackson, and there might be some complicated mathematical calculations to be done, Sam would be a big help, too.

Jack clears his throat.

Jacob: Of course, Colonel O'Neill is…always lots of fun to have around.

Favourite Scene:

The briefing scene closely followed by Daniel and his books.

General Review/Analysis:

On my first viewing, I admit that I really didn’t really like it. However, several rewatches later and I have to admit to a secret fond spot for this episode.
It’s beautifully balanced between the two threads of Teal’c being betrayed and tortured, and the rest of SG1 with Jacob setting up the mine. The mine thread has wonderfully judged light humour all the way through it which compares nicely with the serious and dark tone of the torture. When the two threads collide it’s done well.

I actually really like the Teal’c thread; his unswerving hold to his belief that the Goa’uld are False Gods with the tease of whether Bra’tac was captured and tortured. Rak’nor’s change from traitor to believer in Teal’c. It’s well done and Chris Judge acts his heart out.

But the mine thread is a welcome relief. There are just so many lovely funny moments from the initial briefing scenes through the mine reprogramming (where there is a rerun of Jacob being Dad with Sam and Daniel “Try again”) and Jack’s glee at getting to fly the ship.

Love the attempt to get Teal’c and love the fact that its one of the times they fail – and Teal’c escapes thanks to Rak’nor. (I also love that we get to see Rak’nor throughout the rest of SG1 grow and become a leader himself).

Sam and Jack

There are some nice moments. For me, this is really where the flirty, “we’re back to pretending we can handle this” demeanour returns.

Firstly, I just want mention the briefing between Jacob and the rest of SG1 in Daniel’s office. Love the interaction between the four of them. From a S/J perspective, I find it interesting that Selmak is asking Sam to accompany them on the mission and Jack immediately jumps in and basically snaps that he’s sick of the Tok’ra leaving stuff out and they aren’t going anywhere until he knows everything.

And Jack is still sceptical in the briefing (where interestingly, he’s opposite Sam). There’s a lovely look of exasperation Sam shoots at him at one point.

The elevator scene with the three of them (Jack, Sam and Jacob) is very cute. Love the shot from inside the elevator.

Then of course there is the more blatant flirty stuff on the ship; first the Phoenician joke Sam replies with to Jack when he asks her if she understands it, and of course the fact that Jack totally invades her personal space, practically puts his head on her stomach to take a look under the mine. He could have chosen somewhere else.

Love the moment where he yanks her out from under the mine and then shoves her behind him into the furthest part of the alcove protecting her from the mine. I find it interesting that he then makes his way to the front of the ship away from her as though to get some distance again.

The other shippyish thing that I notice is when Jack is fully determined that they should rescue Teal’c somehow even to the detriment of the rest of the mission, how Sam fully supports Jack, arguing with her father to sway him to their side of the argument. Up until the moment Sam gets involved Jacob is adamant they can’t do anything even calling Jack ‘Colonel’ to remind him of the mission and his duty.

And that’s it. Some nice interplay and support for one another.

[sg-1fanintn]

Valenship has begun! To join the party, go to:

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...3#post11215263

[Tachyon]

I like Serpent's Venom a lot. In fact, I have not seen an SG-1 episode featuring Jacob I didn't like. The favorite scene, of course, is the one where Jack pulls Sam out beneath the mine. But overall a great episode, which had an effect on the entire Goa'uld storyline later on.