Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Tachyon]

Watergate -

Even though the episode was okay for me, it has one of my favorite Jack and Sam moments in it. It is about 15 minutes into the episode when they are taking off their masks. Markov has tears for the men and women that died . . .

Sam - you okay?
Markov - I knew these men and women, Major, some of them quite well.

Sam has a look of pure understanding and empathy on her face. Jack looks at her and you can see that he knows exactly what she is feeling and thinking. They had just said how they felt about each other a few episodes earlier, so you know they felt Markov's pain. It is a very touching moment.

Hmmm... I have not paid this particular scene any special attention... So shame on me. I'm definitely gonna check this scene out soon.

[Rachel500]

*hugs Twi*


Ditto that. I thought her character had interesting potential but alas it was not to be. My main complaint about this episode is that it's another "bash" at the Russians and they did that rather a lot around that time. It got a bit tiresome that these pesky Russians were so inept with their Stargate programme and Jack's abhorance of them (which I always found odd - history between the U.S. and USSR aside, Jack's always shown to be relatively tolerant of aliens so why so negative toward fellow humans).

My favourite line is Daniel's: "So they occasionally catch fire but they keep perfect time?"

Followed by: "Sorry, I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much."


I did like Jack's slight disapointment that he can't go on the submarine too though, and Maybourne is always nice to see. I kind of want to give a little cheer when he appears on screen.

I think the US/USSR dynamic was meant to provide a contrast - we're out in the galaxy and trying to make friends out there but we still can't sort ourselves out back home.

But this is the first time the Russian and their Stargate really make an appearance in the show isn't it? Beyond the submarine thing in Small Victories? The other Russian episodes don't come until the 5th season - The Tomb (which is my own personal worst episode of Stargate ever), 48 Hours; and the 6th with Redemption and Metamorphosis.

I always think Jack's intolerance of the Russians comes from being on the opposite side of the Cold War and probably running Black Ops against them in the early '80s before the wall came down and the Cold War as such 'ended'. I'm sure there were probably field situations where the two sides collided unofficially and Jack remembers those tussles. So for a long time, it was probably the 'Russians' that were the enemy for Jack. Until the Goa'uld and the Stargate programme came along.

So I kind of see the way he is with Markov to be systematic of that; deny everything even though you know they know you know...

[Petra]

"Watergate" is one of my guilty pleasures I know it isn't loved in the fandom but I really like it. Sam, Daniel and Markov (and I agree she was a great character) got some science quality time together, Jack and Teal'c handled the military side of things and Maybourne is one of those characters that elevate each episode they are in just by being in it. Add to that that I love the idea of intelligent water (it's one of the few Stargate episodes where the aliens are really alien) and I'm a sucker for SG-1, and especially Jack, in black BDUs and voila, I can't not like it oh yeah, and it's probably the only episode in the entire series where Teal'c is scared of something the rest of the team finds perfectly normal.

Sam & Jack

They are split up for most of this and I think the main moment that I remember is when they meet Markov. There's some nice looks between them as Markov briefs them both outside and inside the plane, and when she asks them if Jack is always like 'this' and Sam calls Jack 'quite charming.'

There's not much on the S/J front but I love their interactions outside and inside the plane, as you mentioned. The scene Treknik mentioned always stood out for me as well, but I'm afraid my reasons were much, much shallower. I think your interpretation is interesting, although personally I don't see anything shippy in it. I thought Sam and Jack understood Markov because of the people they both lost during their service and that's what they were thinking about.

[Petra]

Sorry for the double post.

I know we started discussing Watergate just yesterday but I figured it's better to stick to the original schedule, especially given that both Watergate and The First Ones aren't overly shippy and I may have trouble with the Internet access over the next few days. So, without furter ado:

Thanks Oma-1 for the lovely banner

Recap: Daniel is with SG11 on P3X888 uncovering early Goa’uld fossils when he is taken hostage by a young male Unas. Robert Rothman returns to the SGC to gather help and SG1 go with SG2 to find Daniel. They arrive on the planet only to find a shell-shocked Major Hawkins and noone else.
A newly conscious Daniel tries to use his radio but it is slapped from his hands. The Unas performs some kind of chant, and is startled when Daniel seems to correctly identify his name as Chaka. Daniel tries to escape when he gets a drink of water but when he wades into the lake something comes at him. He runs out to Chaka who catches a Goa’uld symbiote and kills it. Daniel stays with the Unas and is led into some caves.
Meanwhile, Jack is concerned by Major Hawkins’ behaviour. In the morning, Teal’c kills a Goa’uld and tells the others to drop their weapons; he believes one or more have been taken as hosts. He restrains the team and heads off to find Daniel. Jack grumpily yells that everyone who is a Goa’uld should raise their hand. Hawkins snaps his restraints and rises, advancing on Jack. Jack yells for Teal’c. Teal’c eventually shows up and kills Hawkins. Sam notes that Teal’c knew the Goa’uld would be strong enough to release themselves as the Jaffa removes their bonds. He suddenly realises Rothman is also a Goa’uld. Jack shoots Rothman. SG2 stay behind to deal with the bodies while SG1 continue on their mission to find Daniel.
Daniel has bonded with the Unas over their night-time fire. But the Unas leads him further into the caves. As SG1 turn up, the Alpha Male Unas tries to kill Daniel but is stopped by Chaka who kills him and becomes the Alpha Male. He seems to offer Daniel the chance to stay but Daniel says goodbye.
All credit goes to Rachel500 and her “Aftershocks” series.


Favourite line:
Jack: “Ok, anybody with a snake in your head raise your hand!”

Favourite scene:
Actually there are several scenes that I really, really like. I guess I’ll go with 1) “toss-the-head-of-a-symbiote-game/dinner” scene and 2) Teal’c shooting a symbiote.

Episode Review:
I must admit that I’m not a big fan of either Unas stories (although I do like Thor’s Hammer, Demons and Beast of Burden, strangely) or Daniel episodes so this one is not a favourite of mine. Still, it’s by no means a bad episode, just my least favourite of season 4.

I always wonder why Daniel and Rothman are digging up fossils at the beginning. Aren’t they archeologists? Since when do they study other species’ remains? It’s like an egyptologist studying dinosaurs – not very likely. However once Daniel gets captured things improve. It’s fun to see him being so himself, trying to learn and communicate even when his life’s in danger. I miss this Daniel.

Plot B with SG-1 trying to find him is much more interesting and enjoyable to me. It’s good to see them working with another SG team, it’s great to see the team’s concern and readiness to do everything possible to find Daniel, regardless of danger. I especially love Jack here: it’s clear he’s in command and everybody respects him; he’s smart, observant, focused. I love how gentle and understanding he is when Hawkins realizes his people are dead (which nicely ties in with his reaction in Watergate to finding all Markov’s people dead) and later when he realizes something’s not right and prods Rothman for information.

Sam has the least to do and remains rather in the background while Teal’c gets a few cool scenes. Overall then, an enjoyable episode for those who like SG-1 in the military mode and a great one for Daniel/Unas fans.

S/J implications: Hmm, I walked into this one. I wanted an episode with very little ship and I got one in which I can’t really see anything shippy Not a great start, huh?
This is very much a Daniel episode, with a side order of the team. Sam and Jack don’t interact much with each other apart from being in a perfect military synch, which is kind of their trademark anyway. In the first scene we see them they don’t even stand close – Teal’c is between them. Upon arrival on the planet Sam’s focused on her readings and comes up to Jack only to report her findings or lack of thereof. Actually the only time she touches him is when she touches his elbow to get his attention when they stop for the night. And they don’t rest next to each other either, putting Rothman between them. What’s more Sam doesn’t seem to react in any way when goa’ulded Hawkins charges at Jack. I know it was done for dramatic suspense but I still find it a little odd. Yet despite their professionalism and maintaining distance – which might have been caused by the company of other AF officers – she still smiles a little at his jokes and he still looks up for her for explanations and trusts her implicitly. So all in all, it’s business as usual.

[josiane]

My favourite line is Daniel's: "So they occasionally catch fire but they keep perfect time?"

Followed by: "Sorry, I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much."

This is my favourite line of the episode, closely followed by Jack's "Holy Frozen Bad Guy!" on seeing Maybourne for the first time

I really like Watergate. It's one of those episodes that tends to get overlooked, but I think it's really a very solid episode - good teamy-ness, underlying shippiness in Sam and Jack's interactions, and Maybourne! I take the points about the Russian episodes, and the us-and-them attitude that we see in the US-Russia interactions throughout the series almost seems a little old-fashioned to me, but as Rachel says, this was really the first one, so I've never minded so much in this one.

[josiane]

My favourite line is Daniel's: "So they occasionally catch fire but they keep perfect time?"

Followed by: "Sorry, I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much."

This is my favourite line of the episode, closely followed by Jack's "Holy Frozen Bad Guy!" on seeing Maybourne for the first time

I really like Watergate. It's one of those episodes that tends to get overlooked, but I think it's really a very solid episode - good teamy-ness, underlying shippiness in Sam and Jack's interactions, and Maybourne! I take the points about the Russian episodes, and the us-and-them attitude that we see in the US-Russia interactions throughout the series almost seems a little old-fashioned to me, but as Rachel says, this was really the first one, so I've never minded so much in this one.

[Treknik]

There's not much on the S/J front but I love their interactions outside and inside the plane, as you mentioned. The scene Treknik mentioned always stood out for me as well, but I'm afraid my reasons were much, much shallower. I think your interpretation is interesting, although personally I don't see anything shippy in it. I thought Sam and Jack understood Markov because of the people they both lost during their service and that's what they were thinking about.

col aga, I can understand that Jack would think about the men and women he lost during his service, but what makes it a moment between Sam and Jack is that he "looks" at her. If Jack was just thinking of the past, he wouldn't have looked at Sam. IOW, he wouldn't have focused on her. Jack turning to Sam tells me that she was the one in his thoughts.

[Rachel500]

The First Ones

Nice review, col aga!

Generally...

This is actually one of my favourite Daniel episodes mainly because it really takes Daniel back to his roots - starts out digging in the dirt for fossils and artefacts, moves on to anthropology and cultural observation before heading into linguistics, diplomacy and making friends. It really showcases all aspects of Daniel's roles. It also showcases how smart and resourceful he is - he tries to escape, he leaves messages for the others. I have to admit I love the friendship that develops between Daniel and Chaka (although lets ignore that Chaka does kill at least one SGC guy) - love the fire scene, the power bar and call-back to the movie on 'this is how I met my father-in-law'.

Also love the fact that although Daniel is separated from the team, it's all about the team being there for him, not giving up the search for him. It's great team-y episode in that regard.

My favourite bit of the whole episode though is when SG1 get to the caves and Teal'c (who has been the primary tracker) finds Daniel's arrow pointing in the direction they should follow, and Jack turns to him and says 'You're good.'

Sam & Jack

Yes. There's not a lot of interaction at all and what there is, is very much "professional" - they're out in the field, in a situation.

I do love the bit at night where Jack is questioning Rothman (and getting nowhere) and Sam's tracking their conversation - and you can almost mentally hear her thinking 'what's set the Colonel's alarms going'.

[Cagranosalis]

I always thought Jack's behavior about not getting to go on the submarine had to do with his and Teal'c's experience on the Russian submarine with the replicators in "Small Victories". He was relieved and happy to not get to go on this one. (He fibbed to Markova about never having been on a submarine...)

Oh huh, you know that never, ever occured to me. Doh! You're probably right though.

I really like Watergate. It's one of those episodes that tends to get overlooked, but I think it's really a very solid episode - good teamy-ness, underlying shippiness in Sam and Jack's interactions, and Maybourne! I take the points about the Russian episodes, and the us-and-them attitude that we see in the US-Russia interactions throughout the series almost seems a little old-fashioned to me, but as Rachel says, this was really the first one, so I've never minded so much in this one.

Well in all my getting a bit annoyed at the Russian thing I did forget to mention that yes, actually, I did really enjoy the episode in general, and a lot of that is because of Maybourne, who is always watchable IMO.

The First Ones

I do love the bit at night where Jack is questioning Rothman (and getting nowhere) and Sam's tracking their conversation - and you can almost mentally hear her thinking 'what's set the Colonel's alarms going'.

I just like the way that bit is shot. There's just something really nice about it; can't put it inot words tonight (brain not functioning! )

S/J implications: Hmm, I walked into this one. I wanted an episode with very little ship and I got one in which I can’t really see anything shippy Not a great start, huh?

Heh, well you said give me a ship lite one...
Next time (oh I hope there will be a next time because it's a great review) you can have the big ship episodes...

... hmm, hang on, season 5 is next. Maybe not...

Actually the only time she touches him is when she touches his elbow to get his attention when they stop for the night. And they don’t rest next to each other either, putting Rothman between them.

The fact she touches him at all is fairly shippy since it implies a level of closeness beyond that which a normal CO/2IC might enjoy.
I think they probably put Rothman in the middle because that's the logical place to put a not terribly military minded civillian so that doesn't bother me.
The fact they are all business as usual just goes to highlight how deeply they have already buried their recently acknowledged feelings. They just seem to think it's OK to carry on as if there's not this thign between them. Now when I watch this epsiode I almost feel like screaming at the screen "Jack, Sam, you idiots. This is all going to end in tears of you're not careful." *sigh* which of course it does, a few episodes down when Jack has to do the unthinkable and realises it's not quite so OK to just live with those feelings buried after all. But that's a discussion for another day.

[EvenstarSRV]

There's not much on the S/J front but I love their interactions outside and inside the plane, as you mentioned. The scene Treknik mentioned always stood out for me as well, but I'm afraid my reasons were much, much shallower. I think your interpretation is interesting, although personally I don't see anything shippy in it. I thought Sam and Jack understood Markov because of the people they both lost during their service and that's what they were thinking about.

I liked that scene as well and I agree with your interpretation of it. To me in plays on what I feel is one of the strongest connections between Jack and Sam, their career of service in the Air Force. Beyond their time on SG-1, they both know what it's like to get to know people during a mission and then lose some of them, Jack especially but likely Sam as well during the Gulf War.

The fact she touches him at all is fairly shippy since it implies a level of closeness beyond that which a normal CO/2IC might enjoy.

This confuses me. Sam touches Jack's elbow to quietly get his attention at night while in hostile territory, and that's not something a 2IC would normally do with their CO? Sam and Jack do share a closeness beyond the usual relationship between officers, which I feel is an extension of the extra closeness between all of SG-1. I just don't get this example of it since to me what Sam did is exactly what a 2IC should do in that situation, irregardless of any feelings between them.

[JenniferJF]

Nothing to add except The First Ones is one of my husband's favorite episodes which means anytime I've got S4 out in the bedroom to watch while we're sleeping (he sleeps with the TV on - well we both do, obviously, but he's the one who insists while I simply adapt) I end up with The First Ones if I'm not careful *sigh*

That's all I've got.

[hedwig]

The fact she touches him at all is fairly shippy since it implies a level of closeness beyond that which a normal CO/2IC might enjoy.

I'm not sure what sort of opinion I have about the touching, especially since there have been numerous instances where Sam has touched Jack (on the leg, on his back, arm) on a few occasions. And Jack has certainly touched Sam on numerous occasions (patting her shoulder in "Descent" comes immediately to mind), and in several other episodes. There have certainly been times when he's touched Daniel or Teal'c in several episodes. I'm not sure there's anything shippy (at least in this episode) about Sam touching Jack in this episode. Or is it different simply because it's Sam touching Jack?

Maybe I'll have to go back and watch it, since I haven't seen the episode in awhile.

[Cagranosalis]

This confuses me. Sam touches Jack's elbow to quietly get his attention at night while in hostile territory, and that's not something a 2IC would normally do with their CO? Sam and Jack do share a closeness beyond the usual relationship between officers, which I feel is an extension of the extra closeness between all of SG-1. I just don't get this example of it since to me what Sam did is exactly what a 2IC should do in that situation, irregardless of any feelings between them.

I'm not sure what sort of opinion I have about the touching, especially since there have been numerous instances where Sam has touched Jack (on the leg, on his back, arm) on a few occasions. And Jack has certainly touched Sam on numerous occasions (patting her shoulder in "Descent" comes immediately to mind), and in several other episodes. There have certainly been times when he's touched Daniel or Teal'c in several episodes. I'm not sure there's anything shippy (at least in this episode) about Sam touching Jack in this episode. Or is it different simply because it's Sam touching Jack?

Maybe I'll have to go back and watch it, since I haven't seen the episode in awhile.

Well, that's perhaps because I was saying it mostly in jest to make col aga feel better about having a ship lite episode.
(I ought to know by now that sarcasm does not translate well on a computer screen ).

Although, if you want to talk about touching in general, I think it does depend on the context of the situation. You can look at (for example) this touch and think nothing of it since the do touch fairly frequently, or you can think, given what recently happened and the revelations they have had about their feelings for each other, would they not pull back from this kind of interaction somewhat and be, maybe, a little awkward around each other, at least for a while?
I suppose if I really wanted to see ship in this scene I'd say that above, and suggest I was expecting them to be a bit more shy of doing their usualy touchy thing.

Jack and Sam do touch each other an awful lot though, even for a close team and, ok maybe it is my shippy glasses but more than they touch the others. I think Jack's quite a hands on kind of man anyway, since even from very early on he did a lot of shoulder and arm patting to and general touching all of them. Personally, if I'd worked with a man that touchy with me I think I might have found it disconcerting. Sam, on the other hand, doesn't really reach out and touch people randomly that much at all - that was one of the clues Sam wasn't quite Sam in In The Line Of Duty (she punch-taps Jack on the arm). In trying to think of examples of when she's touched the others, I can really only think of hugging Teal'c in Heroes and a whole load of times with Jack. I don't know if that's significant or not (depends on how rosey your shippy spectacles happen to be) but she might just be taking her cue from Jack's touchyness. I am sure someone can come along and correct me and point me to a dozen times Sam's touched the others though. See, those pesky shippy glasses...

[m_wendy_r]

The first time that I watched The First Ones, I spent my time just watching Sam and Jack. Remnants of watching the awesome ship episodes before, and still looking to see how they adapt to their "confession".

You can definitely see that they slip into professional mode and they don't break it at all. The scene at night that you've mentioned is one of my favourites.

Just my teeny thought on it.

[josiane]

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Synopsis
SG1 are visiting a community of people that they relocated to a planet that offered a suitable environment for their unique physiology. However a huge alien ship is spotted in the sky heading towards their village, destroying everything in its wake. It will reach the Stargate and then the Enkaran village in a matter of hours. SG1 get beamed up to the ship where they are met by a being, created in the image of the Enkarans in order to communicate with them. He explains the ship is an ark, containing the entire record of civilisation and culture of a very advanced alien race, and that it is terraforming the planet in order to create a new home for them. Now that the terraforming process has begun, it cannot be stopped and begun elsewhere, and besides, no other planet met the criteria needed for the process. However the Enkarans aren't able to live elsewhere either and there isn't time to relocate them in any case. Jack orders Sam to create a bomb out of a naquadah reactor, in order to try and blow up the ship. Daniel isn't happy and goes back up to the ship to talk to Lotan, who beams up the bomb and sends it into the upper atmosphere to explode. Daniel then persuades Lotan to come down to the planet's surface and see it for himself in its current state, and meet the Enkarans. Eventually, Daniel and Lotan realise that the ship scanned many millions of planets and find one that would suit the physiology of the Enkarans - the Enkaran homeworld, presumed lost and without a Stargate. Lotan halts the terraforming process temporarily, and offers to take the Enkarans back to their original planet before the ship will return (without him) to this planet to complete the terraforming process.

Review and analysis
I like this episode, but it does seem to have a rather large logical flaw, in that it suffers from small-planet-syndrome. The alien ship doing the terraforming is only two miles across, so surely all the Enkarans would have to do to avoid getting incinerated would be to move 'sidewards'? Plus how can they change the atmosphere with only a two mile wide curtain and not have the other air leak back in? Hmmm, maybe I'm nitpicking here

More seriously, I felt when watching this back that it's interesting to compare it with The Other Side. Both show Jack at odds with Daniel, with Sam kind of in the middle but ending up on Jack's side because of her obligation to follow his orders, and Teal'c observing the whole thing. Jack also feels I think a certain discomfort with the situation he finds himself in - he knows it's distasteful and there are consequences to his decision, so he just grits his teeth and gets on with it. I think the reaction of the other members of SG1 to that both here and in The Other Side are interesting too. Daniel can't see eye-to-eye with Jack, and gets frustrated at Jack's inability to see what he does (and vice Versa, actually). Sam understands both sides (for The Other Side this applies more to the end decision Jack makes rather than earlier on, as she genuinely agrees with Jack at first), but in the end will do what Jack orders her to do, despite her reservations. And Teal'c also understands but kind of keeps out of it.

I think this episode also plays with some interesting ideas about hierarchy of civilisations, almost. SG1 are introduced as heroes to the Enkarans, looked up to, and as a result they feel rather protective and paternalistic towards them when they discover they're threatened. Whereas the Gadmeer are portrayed as very advanced and almost incomprehensible to us, putting SG1 on the back foot, and this isn't helped by the way they're very inhuman, both physically and also emotionally - Lotan is created, and robot-like, and the rest of the Gadmeer are frozen/in stasis/otherwise not really present - it's all automated. We're clearly being asked to make a judgement between the value of their culture as preserved, and the Enkarans lives as being lived. Which I think also really explains why it's Daniel that has the most sympathy for the plight of the Gadmeer - they are archaeology, really. Jack is always more concerned with the here and now, and also clearly has a preference for the cultures where SG1 are more advanced and therefore not at a disadvantage, so it's not surprising his sympathies are firmly with the Enkarans.

Implications for Sam and Jack
This is one of the few episodes where we really see Jack pull rank on Sam - he doesn't do it often, certainly not past the early ones, and after our discussions from earlier this season where we've been talking about how equal they seem, it stands out somewhat. I guess it's good to be reminded of their military relationship, but I think even with this it's really obvious how much they are actually only playing lip service to that idea. Jack is clearly uncomfortable at having to actually order Sam to make the bomb, and Sam is equally uncomfortable at him having to do that, although of course she does submit. The lingering focus on Jack's reaction after giving her the order really emphasises his discomfort. But even after this Sam gets very close to arguing with Jack with this exchange:
You wanna talk me out of this?
Yes, Sir!
The immediacy with which she says this reveals how she's only just keeping it in, and the look between them right after that speaks volumes - they don't argue, because they look at each other and suddenly they both understand how the other feels and that they both understand and so there's no point. I think we see in their interactions here just how thinly they are managing to hold on to their military relationship at this point.

And finally, a couple of teeny tiny other shippy things to mention:
- Sam gives Jack a real 'my hero' look when they're eating the meal at the beginning and the Enkarans are singing SG1's praises.
- And I like how Jack lets Sam get in the dinghy first when they head back after setting the bomb - the military experts will doubtless correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems far more chivalrous than I'd expect from a CO