Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Cagranosalis]

Shipper Rewatch: Season 4

Hi folks. VSS has handed over organising the Shipper rewatch to me.

If you want to join in and write up some of the reviews please can you PM me the following information:

• *How many episodes you can commit to doing?
  *Maximum number per week you can do (and any dates you'd prefer to avoid)?
  *Any epsiodes you would specifically like to do?
  *Any epsiodes you would specifically prefer to avoid doing?

(Obviously, it being The Season Of The Ship I imagine most of us are going to pick the same two of three episodes as favourites, so I will try and divvy it up fairly. If you have a preference for angst/fluff/gutter it might be worth stating so too. )

The more people writing reviews, the merrier. Please don't be shy; sign up if you want to do it!

Remember you can write as much or as little as you like; there's no set format but I can provide you guidance if it's your first time, or you can have a look back through recent discussions here for an idea of the sort of thing we discuss.

Provided we get enough interest I am going to start the rewatch around mid January so I need all sign ups by the 4th January.

[Leucothea29]

Well, according to the transcript Jack actually says "I guess" in response to that question from Freya/Anise. Perhaps there weren't more force-fields directly in front of him before he turned around to go back for Sam, so he may have guessed he could still escape but wasn't certain about it.

Maybe, but there another way that could explain the 'I guess' response:

He was still in partial shock because of his realizing his feelings for Sam. So the I guess was a way to hedge and try to avoid admitting his outright feelings for her. In one word - denial

Still...I'm completely new to this thread, and have only seen through season six. (but I'm working on seven, so I'm getting there) Actually, I'm fairly new to the whole 'gateworld' experience, so no offense meant at all.

Happy New Year everyone.

[Nynaeve506]

Maybe, but there another way that could explain the 'I guess' response:

He was still in partial shock because of his realizing his feelings for Sam. So the I guess was a way to hedge and try to avoid admitting his outright feelings for her. In one word - denial

Still...I'm completely new to this thread, and have only seen through season six. (but I'm working on seven, so I'm getting there) Actually, I'm fairly new to the whole 'gateworld' experience, so no offense meant at all.

Happy New Year everyone.

Welcome welcome!!! There's no offense here we're a pretty informal bunch So feel free to jump on in and just be warned that we're all a bit crazy

[Leucothea29]

Welcome welcome!!! There's no offense here we're a pretty informal bunch So feel free to jump on in and just be warned that we're all a bit crazy

Thanks... crazy, I (think I) can handle!

[Cagranosalis]

Welcome Leocothea29! The more the merrier. We're starting the season 4 rewatch on the 11th January so plenty to discuss then but, meantime, feel free to add any thoughts on anything here already.


Have you found the Ship Appreciation thread yet? The one where we really are crazy?

[kusanagi]

Welcome!!!

[kusanagi]

Welcome Leocothea29! The more the merrier. We're starting the season 4 rewatch on the 11th January so plenty to discuss then but, meantime, feel free to add any thoughts on anything here already.


Have you found the Ship Appreciation thread yet? The one where we really are crazy?

Much more crazy then you could ever imagine

[Leucothea29]

Much more crazy then you could ever imagine

Thanks everyone and I think so... *goes to look* Yup, I've found it.

[Nynaeve506]

Thanks everyone and I think so... *goes to look* Yup, I've found it.

You can get more of our insanity over on the Appreciation Thread (2.0) - here we stick to in depth semi-serious discussions (except when it's my turn to summarize the episode, in which case, sarcasm reigns free) - but over there we let our obsession loose in ways that make our spouses threaten to have us committed. And the rest of the world mocks us. But hey, let them live in the dreary world of no love.

[JenniferJF]

You can get more of our insanity over on the Appreciation Thread (2.0) - here we stick to in depth semi-serious discussions (except when it's my turn to summarize the episode, in which case, sarcasm reigns free) - but over there we let our obsession loose in ways that make our spouses threaten to have us committed. And the rest of the world mocks us. But hey, let them live in the dreary world of no love.

Sarcasm is *deadly* serious. Never take it lightly. Ever. That way path leads to utter damnation.

Speaking of which, I was watching Redemption last night (some of you can possibly guess why ) and - not for the first time - was reminded of that wonderful exchange between Sam and Jack when he's about to push the hyperdrive button towards the end of the epi. It's been something of a running gag up until that point that everyone keeps wishing Jack good luck, but right before he's about to do this terribly dangerous thing, and she's trying to explain to him ... haltingly cause it's hard for her... how dangerous it is, and he keeps saying, "I know... I know..." and then, finally, she simply says, "Good luck" and he accepts it with a single nod as he pulls on his glasses...

*big shippy sigh*

Cause it's like the scene later in Lost City. She simply can't under those circumstances express her worry and fear for *him* personally, and his "I know" is referring to her feelings, not the danger. And her final "Good luck" is, effectively, "Take care because you're special to me" and his calm acceptance of her saying it proves he understands what she's really saying... it's the closest she can come. It's very sweet

I know... not an episode we're discussing. But I wanted to share anyway.

[Rachel500]

Banner By Josiane

Synopsis:

In the ocean, a Russian sub is boarded by the remaining Replicator from Thor’s ship while SG1 return to Earth and are reunited with Daniel. A relaxed Jack invites Sam fishing again but she refuses with a smile; as he heads out into the corridor, she chases after him – Hammond has cancelled the leave. Major Davis arrives and tells them about the sub. Both Jack and Sam recommend blowing it up but Davis tells them that the political situation may be too volatile for them to take that action. It’s decided a small team will board the sub and take out the Replicators with guns.

The Stargate activates; Thor arrives and asks for their help in dealing with a Replicator invasion in the Asgard galaxy. Sam volunteers to go with the Asgard while the rest of SG1 deal with the sub. Jack and Teal’c board the sub with two other soldiers, while Daniel watches at a nearby base of operations. The Replicators attack, killing the other two men and injuring Teal’c; Davis agrees they need to blow the ship. Daniel notes that the material from the new Replicators is different; that they’re eating the submarine but that they need to deal with the original Replicator from Thor’s ship which might be able to survive the explosion. Jack and Teal’c agree to go back aboard having come up with a plan.

Meanwhile, Sam boards an Asgard ship and admires a new ship in the same dock; Thor tells her that the O’Neill is the latest design but it is not completely ready. As their battle with the Replicators becomes precarious and Sam struggles to understand the Asgard technology, she eventually comes up with a plan; bait a trap – send the O’Neill into hyperspace, the Replicator ships will follow and when they do, blow the O’Neill remotely wiping out the Replicator ships. The plan works brilliantly.

On Earth, Jack and Teal’c have been successful at destroying the mother bug, but are trapped on the sub and being overrun by Replicators; Jack tells Daniel to blow the sub and when the archaeologist hesitates, Jack orders Davis to do it. A horrified and upset Daniel agrees but just as the missiles hit the sub, Daniel sees a flash of white light and realises the Agard have beamed them out. On Thor’s ship, Jack thanks Sam and Thor for the rescue; Thor thanks them for their help and beams them back to Earth.

Favourite Lines:

Jack: Where's the fanfare, General?
Sam: We did kind of save the planet, sir.
Jack: Again, this should not get old, General.

Later...

Sam: Sir, if there are still a small enough number of replicators on board, a properly equipped team could possibly…
Jack: Save the world?
Sam: Getting old for you, sir?

Favourite Scene:

Not to repeat myself from my Nemesis review but...yep, it’s the fishing invite. Although Sam hugging Thor comes close.

General Review/Analysis:

I’m probably going to sound like a broken record because again, like with Nemesis, despite the shippy beginning with the fishing invite, Small Victories has never been one of my favourites. Mostly, I lose interest just after Sam leaves with Thor (I hate the splitting up of the team – given they had to do it in Nemesis because of Michael Shanks’s needing surgery, I was looking forward to SG1 being together in Small Victories so was hugely disappointed that they weren’t).

The opening is great – I love Janet and Daniel’s scene where she’s examining the scar (which is real), love the reunion of the team and Teal’c’s new facial hair, love the fishing invite and the briefing with Davis, the arrival of Thor...
But for me the pacing goes to pieces as they shift between the close-quarter dark action-y pieces with the men of SG1 and the bright rather static stillness of Sam with Thor (where even the special effects are mostly static with the Replicator battle looking like a space invaders game as they watch it on the screen).

I will concede that it’s nice to see Sam have to argue for her plan – by this point, most of the time Jack just accepts that her plan will save the day and here we get to see her fighting to convince Thor. And I will also concede that Jack looks yummy in the black. But this episode has never had the action required for a series’ opener for me and the timing of the rescue and the fact that they’re all still separated at the end (poor Daniel is on the ground – and why the heck does he get the final say on blowing them up – shouldn’t Davis have had command??) just doesn’t strike the right note for me.

Sam and Jack

Given previous discussions in the thread, I’m going to go out on a limb and say most of you will disagree with me here.

Where to begin...with A for Attitude I think. Sam and Jack return from their vacation away with Sam having a brand new attitude where Jack is concerned. For me, there is an equality that hasn’t been there before. She’s not at all deferential to him in attitude – both during the opening scene, the fishing invite, the briefing, and leaving with Thor. Yes, she calls him ‘sir’ but the way she says it is different. As though it is there as a mark of respect for his rank but her tone is one of an equal. It’s incredibly subtle and I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well but for me it stands out. (The favourite lines I’ve picked out kind of highlight the new dynamic).

Overall, for me, this is an indicator that *something* occurred in the time they were away that changed their relationship from the uneasy tension of Nemesis where Sam is *very* aware of the ranks issue, to this warm camaraderie we see in Small Victories where both of them seem very relaxed with the status quo. I do think something happened that got them on the same page of thinking ‘yes we both acknowledge we like each other that way but nothing can happen and we’re OK with that because we can be friends’. I’m not saying it was a full out in depth conversation or that anything physical happened – but I think something happened for them to reach that understanding.

In terms of the action in Small Victories, the opening from when they return to when Sam leaves definitely shows they are in synch. They’re both so relaxed and happy in the fishing invitation scene (wonderful redux of Nemesis); just gorgeously bantering. In the briefing they are sitting closely together, and back each other up fully. He’s concerned when she offers to go with Thor and can’t help but watch her leave.

I also love the little scene where Sam is distracted, worrying about the action back on Earth and Thor notes that Jack is a very capable human being. In many ways, because of the ship being called O’Neill Sam is constantly being reminded of him. (And it’s quite a nice note that a ship named after Jack offers Sam her solution, and she turns up to save him – ie they save each other as always).

The ending when Teal’c and Jack get beamed back to Thor’s ship just in time is also nice and he does look proud of her when Thor praises her for saving the Asgard, just as she’s thrilled to tell him about the ship and relieved to see he’s OK.

As a shippy beginning to S4, there are hints here at their new closeness that provide a signpost for what will happen later.

[josiane]

<snip>
Sam and Jack

Given previous discussions in the thread, I’m going to go out on a limb and say most of you will disagree with me here.

Where to begin...with A for Attitude I think. Sam and Jack return from their vacation away with Sam having a brand new attitude where Jack is concerned. For me, there is an equality that hasn’t been there before. She’s not at all deferential to him in attitude – both during the opening scene, the fishing invite, the briefing, and leaving with Thor. Yes, she calls him ‘sir’ but the way she says it is different. As though it is there as a mark of respect for his rank but her tone is one of an equal. It’s incredibly subtle and I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well but for me it stands out. (The favourite lines I’ve picked out kind of highlight the new dynamic).

Overall, for me, this is an indicator that *something* occurred in the time they were away that changed their relationship from the uneasy tension of Nemesis where Sam is *very* aware of the ranks issue, to this warm camaraderie we see in Small Victories where both of them seem very relaxed with the status quo. I do think something happened that got them on the same page of thinking ‘yes we both acknowledge we like each other that way but nothing can happen and we’re OK with that because we can be friends’. I’m not saying it was a full out in depth conversation or that anything physical happened – but I think something happened for them to reach that understanding.

Well, before everyone else comes on and shoots you down, I'm going to stick my hand up and say I completely agree with you. In fact, your Aftershock at this point is totally my personal canon on this point IMO the change in their attitude to one another is just too striking for there to be any other explanation - and I think you explained it brilliantly there that Sam is much more of an equal suddenly, and both of them treat her as such. IIRC (since I haven't seen the episode since we watched it last week on the other thread), there's the slightest pause before the 'Sir' in that exchange you quoted about the 'getting old for you' which I think is emblematic of this, and I can't see the Sam of S3 or before coming back at Jack with the 'yeahsureyoubetcha' when she goes off with Thor, let alone smiling so openly and affectionately at Jack in the scene in her lab. Likewise the way Jack peers through her magnifying glass is altogether more playful than we've seen him before. They say in the commentary for this scene that this is them ramping up the shippy aspect in preparation for the storylines to come with Upgrades/D&C, but the only in-universe explanation seems to me to be the theory that something happened while they were stranded offworld. Like you, I don't think that necessarily was anything overt - no in-depth conversations, and I can't see anything physical happening either - that's not their style. But you don't have to have either of those things for both of them to realise what's going on.

Anyway, now everyone else can have their say and disagree!

In terms of the action in Small Victories, the opening from when they return to when Sam leaves definitely shows they are in synch. They’re both so relaxed and happy in the fishing invitation scene (wonderful redux of Nemesis); just gorgeously bantering. In the briefing they are sitting closely together, and back each other up fully. He’s concerned when she offers to go with Thor and can’t help but watch her leave.

I also love the little scene where Sam is distracted, worrying about the action back on Earth and Thor notes that Jack is a very capable human being. In many ways, because of the ship being called O’Neill Sam is constantly being reminded of him. (And it’s quite a nice note that a ship named after Jack offers Sam her solution, and she turns up to save him – ie they save each other as always).

Ooh, nice catch!

[hedwig]

Well, before everyone else comes on and shoots you down, I'm going to stick my hand up and say I completely agree with you. In fact, your Aftershock at this point is totally my personal canon on this point IMO the change in their attitude to one another is just too striking for there to be any other explanation - and I think you explained it brilliantly there that Sam is much more of an equal suddenly, and both of them treat her as such. IIRC (since I haven't seen the episode since we watched it last week on the other thread), there's the slightest pause before the 'Sir' in that exchange you quoted about the 'getting old for you' which I think is emblematic of this, and I can't see the Sam of S3 or before coming back at Jack with the 'yeahsureyoubetcha' when she goes off with Thor, let alone smiling so openly and affectionately at Jack in the scene in her lab. Likewise the way Jack peers through her magnifying glass is altogether more playful than we've seen him before. They say in the commentary for this scene that this is them ramping up the shippy aspect in preparation for the storylines to come with Upgrades/D&C, but the only in-universe explanation seems to me to be the theory that something happened while they were stranded offworld. Like you, I don't think that necessarily was anything overt - no in-depth conversations, and I can't see anything physical happening either - that's not their style. But you don't have to have either of those things for both of them to realise what's going on.

Anyway, now everyone else can have their say and disagree!

No disagreement from me, either. I've always thought something must have happened between those two episodes. Just a short discussion of some sort - nothing in depth. Just something that allowed them to be so very comfy with each other after that.

I also agree with the bit about why Daniel was in charge when Jack and Teal'c were on the sub and Jack gave the order to fire the torpedos. It was a military operation, and a civilian had no business being in charge there. Plus, Jack gave Davis a direct order to fire the torpedos, and Davis ignored it and looked to Daniel for guidance. Of course, had Davis instantly obeyed the order, the torpedos would have been fired and the sub blown up too soon for Jack and Teal'c to be rescued by Thor.

[Jumble]

I also agree with the bit about why Daniel was in charge when Jack and Teal'c were on the sub and Jack gave the order to fire the torpedos. It was a military operation, and a civilian had no business being in charge there. Plus, Jack gave Davis a direct order to fire the torpedos, and Davis ignored it and looked to Daniel for guidance. Of course, had Davis instantly obeyed the order, the torpedos would have been fired and the sub blown up too soon for Jack and Teal'c to be rescued by Thor.

My thinking on that is that Major Davis had seen and understood the bond that SG1 had built up, and knew how the situation must be affecting Daniel. I wood have been surprised if he hadn't paused to look at Daniel at the point where he had been effectively ordered to kill half of that team. It was a huge responsibility to put on him and I really think anyone wood have hesitated to carry out that order.

Besides which, that pause gave Thor just enough time to come to the rescue.

Hey, I'm a realist

[Rachel500]

Hopefully this makes it as GW has thrown me off three times since I tried to post...

Firstly, YAY! People agree with me.

Secondly, the Daniel situation actually shows just the type of issue that could arise because of feelings. And does underline for me that the whole team was over the line not just Sam and Jack.

To be fair to Davis, Jack initially gives the order to Daniel who hesitates so Jack then orders Davis to do it and it seems to me that Davis hesitates because Daniel is supposed to have command and he doesn't want to usurp his position...

But yes, poor Davis. Pausing not because he's a bad officer but because the plot required him to continue hesitating so Thor could beam them up...