Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Zoser]

No rotten-vegetable throwing, I promise.

But I did want to just comment on this because I partly agree with you on "acting like myself" meaning to refer to himself and what he used to do, how he used to be. Totally agree in fact that he is referring to the fact that he is used to playing in the grey, in the morally dubious arena, that distasteful things were par for the course for him.

However, I think the thing that makes that statement personal to Sam is that he actually doesn't say 'I haven't been acting like myself since I came here/joined the SGC' - he does say 'since I met you'.

Now whether that's a slip of the tongue or his words were chosen - it makes that statement all about Sam for me.

Since he met her, he's not been doing those things, acting that way, wanting to be in the morally dubious ground anymore. And maybe part of that is that she has inspired him to want to take the moral high ground, to be a better man; that Sam has impacted his behaviour as a person.

And actually thinking about it, given I do interpret that scene as a personal reference comparison (in simplistic terms, she's good, he's not), for me it's another indicator that he wouldn't suspect her.

I know I'm a little late but...
I thought Jack was pushing Sam away (to protect her) and saying 'You're a little miss goody two shoes and I'm one of the big boys so get out of my way" and I think it was meant to hurt. The old 'cruel to be kind'

I love New Ground and CS.
Even my husband laughs when Teal'c 'assists' Jack back to his bed. Dr. Frasier is usually right!

[Rachel500]

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Nemesis

Synopsis:
Jack visits Daniel in the infirmary after his operation and checks the other man is OK. Daniel is resigned to staying in the infirmary for a while. Jack leaves him and goes to see Sam. He invites her fishing; Sam is surprised at the invitation and turns him down. When he leaves her lab, Sam seems to reconsider and follows him into the corridor but loses her courage again, wishing him a happy vacation. Jack realises she’s tempted and tries to coax her into accepting his invitation but he is suddenly beamed aboard Thor’s ship.

Jack finds Thor dying and Thor’s ship, the Beliskner over-run by metallic bugs the Asgard have named Replicators, whose only purpose is to self-replicate and who are attracted to technology. Jack contacts a worried SGC via the hologram technology and tells Hammond, Sam and a recalled Teal’c what has happened. He tells them they cannot beam to the ship because it’s a one-way trip; if they give him the explosives he has asked for, he’ll destroy the ship and keep Earth safe. A stunned Sam watches as Jack’s hologram disappears.

Jack sets the beaming technology and runs to the cargo hold to take delivery of the explosives before the Replicators get to them; he is aghast to see Sam and Teal’c beam in. Sam tells him that Hammond countermanded his order; they have a way off the ship – a shuttle will be deployed from Earth to get them. As they make their way back to Thor, they do battle with the Replicators; bullets shatter the bugs but energy weapons like the zat have no effect. Thor tells them that blowing the ship will not be as easy as Jack thinks. Back on Earth, Daniel heads to the control room having heard the news, telling Hammond he just feels he needs to be there – or more exactly with his friends.

SG1 come up with a plan to cause the ship to have an uncontrolled entry into Earth’s atmosphere, breaking it apart. But when they try to get to the navigational array on the ship, the place is overrun by Replicators. Plan B is to set an explosive device outside of the ship on the hull. Teal’c offers to do the space walk. They put him in a space suit and he heads out. But after he sets the explosive, the Replicators lock Teal’c out of the ship, his tank blows a leak and Sam has to beam him back. Back in the control room, Teal’c notes that they will die after all – they have to stay to ensure the explosives blow up at the right moment. Sam gets an idea.

The SGC watches as the Stargate is beamed away; Daniel realises that they will use it to escape. Hammond orders the second gate they found in Antarctica unpacked and made operational. On the ship, Jack and Teal’c take delivery of the Stargate and Teal’c starts dialling as Jack shoots the advancing Replicators. When the wormhole activates, Sam joins them and sends Thor’s stasis pod through. They wait until the last possible moment and blow the ship. It breaks up in the atmosphere, falling into the sea. As Major Davis tries to comfort Daniel, assuring the archaeologist that he’s sure his theory is correct, a lone Replicator clings to a piece of wreckage floating in the sea.

Favourite Lines:

Teal’c: One small step for Jaffa.

And

Teal’c: Thor was correct; we are going to die.

Jack: Oh, come on, Teal'c. Lighten up! We’ve been in these situations before.

Sam: No, sir. We haven’t.

Jack: We haven’t?

Favourite Scene:

Yep, it’s the fishing invite.

General Review/Analysis:

Despite the shippy beginning with the fishing invite, Nemesis was never a favourite of mine although it has grown on me.

After so many years, it’s easy to forget that actually this is the first time that we see the Replicators and while the CGI is more apparent now than it was at the time, the bugs are still reasonably scary in their first outing. There’s a great moment where one crawls over Jack when he first beams aboard and he shakes it off in a very visceral fashion as if it were a real bug. I love when the zat doesn’t work; when the bugs reform after being shot. There is the sense they are overwhelming en masse. In many ways the mechanical bugs are a much more terrifying enemy than their human Replicator descendents later in the series; there is no reasoning with them, no way of stopping them beyond shooting them – they’re really just an unstoppable force. The Replicator clinging to the wreckage is a great ending.

There’s some good Jack/Teal’c stuff when Teal’c does the EVA. Some lovely shots out-to-in, and in-to-out of Jack looking at Teal’c, Teal’c looking at Jack. There’s a fantastic sweep in from space, across the Asgard ship to the tiny figure of Teal’c on the outside. Great direction from MW. Jack’s concern for Teal’c is lovely as he sees his friend off in part I think because Jack really would rather be taking the dangerous job himself but has acquiesced to Teal’c doing it. His relief when Teal’c is OK is really well played by RDA.

There is also some nice stuff back at the SGC with Daniel left behind because of his operation and worrying about his team-mates with Hammond and Davis especially with the ending. It’s a great decision not to show SG1 escaping the ship because certainly when it first aired as the S3 finale, it did give a frisson of worry about who was returning in S4...rumours abounded that RDA wasn’t coming back, etc. And I like how they beam up the Stargate and use it to escape which is a nice call-back to Daniel’s escape in the S2 opener.

And, of course, the missing week between Nemesis and Small Victories will give rise to much fanfic on what happened during the missing time...

Sam and Jack

This episode is the climax of the closeness that has been building all season. It’s not just the fishing invite although that’s part of it. The fishing invitation is the beginning though, so let me start there.

The invite from Jack is deliberately masked in teasing her about what she considers fun (a bit of a call back to Learning Curve). And she’s genuinely surprised by the invitation indicating to me that while she’s aware of her own feelings, she’s not aware at this point of his.

For me, Jack is aware enough of his own feelings and suspects enough of hers to offer her the invite in the first place. It’s very much precariously balanced right on the fine line the regulations allow. And the fact that he even says ‘nothing inappropriate in that’ and tries to sell it on the basis of co-workers and friends, gives away to me that Jack has thought about it. A LOT. While I wouldn’t go as far as to say that Jack invited Sam fishing with the intent of more than that happening (although consciously/subconsciously he may have even hoped, fantasised for more), and would have been pleased if she’d accepted and all they had done was spend time together, I do think he was testing the water. And I think one of the reasons why he’s so quick to accept her initial decline is because he knows the very fine line he’s balanced on and is trying hard not to pressurise her in any way (along with a need to hide his own disappointment).

Her initial decline though is rooted for me in her innate desire to play by the rules (and I do think she was genuinely looking forward to playing with the naquadah reactor). Regardless of how thrilled she is about getting the invite, she knows how inappropriate it will look despite his assurances – but I also think she considers the danger of being alone with him giving away her feelings. It’s only when he’s so quick to accept her decline that she has second thoughts – that she considers that if he only sees her as a friend, if it doesn’t truly matter to him, then maybe it’s OK, it’s safe to go because nothing will happen – and she hurries after him but loses her nerve.

And the fact that she hurries after him, gives Jack the confidence to put some pressure on her, and try and coax her into going because she’s given away that she’s tempted. And it’s in his coaxing of her that I think Sam begins to realise he really does want her to go fishing with him. Of course, Thor beams him up before he can convince her.

This scene more than any other has them standing on the edge of the cliff for me; one side is the inextricable slide to D&C, one side is the step back to safety.

The second scene which I think is of importance between them is the briefing room where Jack beams down as a hologram to inform them that basically he’s going to sacrifice his life to blow up the ship. All through that scene it is as though Jack is speaking to Sam, his attention is on her, not on Hammond or Teal’c. Her protest when she realises what he’s going to do and the way he cuts her off suggests to me that he knows her feelings about his sacrifice are very personal and he invokes their professional relationship to stop her doing anything to help him, giving her a direct order and calling her Major. He is absolutely horrified when he sees her and Teal’c aboard the Asgard ship and yells that he gave them a direct order, and she is quick to tell him Hammond overruled him.

There are two things for me about this. One is the desperate plan which allows Sam and Teal’c to join Jack (shuttle coming up to rendezvous with the Asgard). It kind of feels like it was a plan Sam came up with as a last ditch attempt to get herself on board the ship because she would rather die with him than lose him. I think the fact that Teal’c is with her and that Hammond agreed to it gives away that she has at least convinced herself that the plan will work or that they would think of something else when aboard but still, it’s very risky and gives away that she’s too close to Jack to make objective decisions.

Secondly, as they begin to plan how to blow up Thor’s ship, it is evident that Jack needed her – or someone with her skills – onboard. I’m not suggesting Jack isn’t smart enough and while he could have come up with a solution perhaps with Thor, having someone who has the patience to read through and understand the technical specs as quickly as she can (where he did get bored), who can come up with the plans (she pretty much drives that whole planning exercise – and in each discussion there are some lovely shots of Sam and Jack sat together, stood next to each other), certainly increases the chances of success and survival. Really, if Jack was being completely objective he would have requested that she, or someone else, beam aboard rather than trying to go it alone.

The final point I want to make is around the EVA. Sam very quickly jumps on Teal’c’s offer of being the one to do the EVA and comes up with a reason why it shouldn’t be Jack when he notes he was going to do it. Now while I’m sure it’s a perfectly valid reason and Sam wouldn’t have said it if it wasn’t, there is a general air of Sam not wanting it to be Jack, Teal’c (First Shipper) understanding that and backing her up, and Jack acquiescing not because of the reason she’s given but because he knows she doesn’t want him to do it.

Which I think then underpins his whole angst about Teal’c being the one to do it – because I think internally Jack knows he hasn’t made the decision for the right reason and that bothers him – because the frat regs are there to ensure there is no favouritism and that the other members of the team aren’t disadvantaged. Equally, I think Sam feels that pressure too in trying to get Teal’c back on board and in looking after him when they return to the room – because she was the one who effectively determined it was Teal’c.

All of which goes to show just how inappropriately close the two of them had become given their working relationship and military ranks. While the fishing invitation itself might have been just on the line, their feelings are already way over it.

[gater62]

That was lovely analysis Rachel! I hadn't thought of the EVA thing in this way. This is why I love this thread-getting a new way to look at old scenes.

[JenniferJF]

All of which goes to show just how inappropriately close the two of them had become given their working relationship and military ranks. While the fishing invitation itself might have been just on the line, their feelings are already way over it.

And that, to me, summarizes the significance of this episode to their relationship. Beyond that.. robot spiders! The is one of my kids' absolute favorite episodes and I have but to turn it on for a good hour of family time.

[EvenstarSRV]

I'm woefully behind on these episodes, but I'm still enjoying following the discussion. Maybe after New Years I'll be able to catch up.

The final point I want to make is around the EVA. Sam very quickly jumps on Teal’c’s offer of being the one to do the EVA and comes up with a reason why it shouldn’t be Jack when he notes he was going to do it. Now while I’m sure it’s a perfectly valid reason and Sam wouldn’t have said it if it wasn’t, there is a general air of Sam not wanting it to be Jack, Teal’c (First Shipper) understanding that and backing her up, and Jack acquiescing not because of the reason she’s given but because he knows she doesn’t want him to do it.

Which I think then underpins his whole angst about Teal’c being the one to do it – because I think internally Jack knows he hasn’t made the decision for the right reason and that bothers him – because the frat regs are there to ensure there is no favouritism and that the other members of the team aren’t disadvantaged. Equally, I think Sam feels that pressure too in trying to get Teal’c back on board and in looking after him when they return to the room – because she was the one who effectively determined it was Teal’c.

I gotta say, I really don't understand this line of reasoning. There's been several instances where Teal'c has done the dangerous stuff rather than someone else because of the protection offered by his symbiote (Crystal Skull being the most recent). The radiation concern meant that Teal'c would be the least harmed doing the EVA, ergo, Jack did make the right decision to let him do it. I just really don't see Jack letting Teal'c do the EVA just because Sam doesn't want him to go it, which I don't see either. She explained the risks involved in the EVA, Teal'c volunteered because he knew he'd be least at risk doing it, and Jack agreed with his logic and let him do it. That was just plain good teamwork to me.

While I obviously don't ship them, I generally don't mind the Sam/Jack relationship on the show because, IMHO, they never allowed their potential romantic feelings for each to interfere with the mission.

I think if, as you suggest, Jack and Sam really did feel they'd put Teal'c into danger because of their feelings for each other, then as soon as they got home one or the other would have requested a transfer to remove that threat from the team. I think they both care far too much about Daniel, Teal'c and the team and mission as a whole to do anything else. Because that never happened, I'm left to assume that wasn't an issue on this mission.

[JenniferJF]

I think if, as you suggest, Jack and Sam really did feel they'd put Teal'c into danger because of their feelings for each other, then as soon as they got home one or the other would have requested a transfer to remove that threat from the team. I think they both care far too much about Daniel, Teal'c and the team and mission as a whole to do anything else. Because that never happened, I'm left to assume that wasn't an issue on this mission.

It's interesting you should say that. Because my husband (he and I are both veterans) has a terrible problem with D&C. In reality, after D&C, Sam and Jack would have been put on different teams. Regardless of whether or not they acted on those feelings. It was the right thing to do for everyone.

The important thing is, once we learn that the reason Jack stayed there at the forcefield to die there with Sam was because he *loved* her.. then we know that love is already endangering the rest of the team. Daniel and Teal'c were waiting within the blast area, too, because they didn't know what was happening and because neither Sam nor Jack had come out to them yet. If Jack hadn't been unwilling to leave Sam because of his inappropriate feelings, he would have done the reasonable thing, run out, and saved not only himself but Teal'c and Daniel.

Of course, he might still have stayed but for different motivations. The point is, though, we'll never know. And he *did* stay because of his feelings... Which means those feelings are already too strong for them to be on the same team anymore.

That said, if you assume from D&C that Teal'c (at least) knows this and isn't willing to make a fuss about it, then I guess it's their choice whether or not to make an issue of it...

And this is probably thinking way more into this than is necessary... Only I do think the right thing to do would have been to go to separate teams and it was for personal reasons beyond the regs that they chose to let the regs be a barrier.

Plus, you know, the show's SG1 staring those four actors.

[Rachel500]

I'm woefully behind on these episodes, but I'm still enjoying following the discussion. Maybe after New Years I'll be able to catch up.



I gotta say, I really don't understand this line of reasoning. There's been several instances where Teal'c has done the dangerous stuff rather than someone else because of the protection offered by his symbiote (Crystal Skull being the most recent). The radiation concern meant that Teal'c would be the least harmed doing the EVA, ergo, Jack did make the right decision to let him do it. <snip>

While I obviously don't ship them, I generally don't mind the Sam/Jack relationship on the show because, IMHO, they never allowed their potential romantic feelings for each to interfere with the mission.

I think if, as you suggest, Jack and Sam really did feel they'd put Teal'c into danger because of their feelings for each other, then as soon as they got home one or the other would have requested a transfer to remove that threat from the team. I think they both care far too much about Daniel, Teal'c and the team and mission as a whole to do anything else. Because that never happened, I'm left to assume that wasn't an issue on this mission.

As far as the EVA goes, for me, the subtext of the decision being more than a simple question of who is best for the job is there. Primarily because of the ordering of that discussion - Teal'c volunteers, Jack says he was going to do it, Sam suddenly mentions radiation is a concern (for the first time in the discussion) and looks uncomfortable with the idea of Jack doing it, Teal'c confirms his symbiote can protect him, Jack acquiesces almost unhappily.

For Sam and Jack, I'm not even sure they would explicitly know on a conscious level what's motivating them in that discussion beyond the radiation being a factor - and I'm fairly certain that if asked they would be in denial that it was anything more than Teal'c being the best person for the job that was a factor in the decision.

And I don't deny that the radiation concern was valid or that the right decision was made. But was the right decision made for the right reason or the wrong one?

And I do think subconsciously, Jack has that as a worry, and it rubs at him like a tiny stone in his shoe making him even more anxious about Teal'c doing the mission than he perhaps would have been otherwise. (Jack's concern for me here is much more than we see usually when he's sending someone to do something in the field that's risky).

And even then, Teal'c himself is complicit in the decision. Did he volunteer because he was the right person to do it or because he wanted to spare his human team-mates? Just as Teal'c and Daniel are complicit in the decision in D&C that Jenn mentions - they could have left and gone to the gate but they too choose to stay behind when Sam and Jack don't appear.

I tend to go with the view that as a team by the end of S2 all of them were over the line the regulations allow and should have really have been disbanded.

Which actually helped Sam and Jack to remain on the team despite their occasional worries about whether they were endangering the team. They could justify that they would do the same for Daniel or for Teal'c when they stayed behind or went back to save each other. The team's caring for each other gave Sam and Jack a false sense of where the line was for them as a couple when their feelings went beyond friendship.

[Cagranosalis]

For me, Jack is aware enough of his own feelings and suspects enough of hers to offer her the invite in the first place. It’s very much precariously balanced right on the fine line the regulations allow. And the fact that he even says ‘nothing inappropriate in that’ and tries to sell it on the basis of co-workers and friends, gives away to me that Jack has thought about it. A LOT. While I wouldn’t go as far as to say that Jack invited Sam fishing with the intent of more than that happening (although consciously/subconsciously he may have even hoped, fantasised for more), and would have been pleased if she’d accepted and all they had done was spend time together, I do think he was testing the water. And I think one of the reasons why he’s so quick to accept her initial decline is because he knows the very fine line he’s balanced on and is trying hard not to pressurise her in any way (along with a need to hide his own disappointment).

Her initial decline though is rooted for me in her innate desire to play by the rules (and I do think she was genuinely looking forward to playing with the naquadah reactor). Regardless of how thrilled she is about getting the invite, she knows how inappropriate it will look despite his assurances – but I also think she considers the danger of being alone with him giving away her feelings. It’s only when he’s so quick to accept her decline that she has second thoughts – that she considers that if he only sees her as a friend, if it doesn’t truly matter to him, then maybe it’s OK, it’s safe to go because nothing will happen – and she hurries after him but loses her nerve.

For me I never saw Jack as really being all that aware of his feelings, at least not overtly. I've always thought he has a very male mindset - one whereby feelings are really only thought about, disected and mulled over if and when there really is no choice. I just don't think he gave the fishing invite that much thought beyond taking someone - anyone, but Sam would be nice because he likes her - with him. Possibly after he asked and saw her reaction he might have realised that, oops, she thinks it's innapropriate and maybe it might be given she makes me feel a bit tingly sometimes. But I never ascribed him to be someone who gave the whole deal of his feelings much thought until the point at the forceshield where he's forced to realise that he loves her and what's more he loves her in an "I'm prepared to die for her" way and that he's so far over the line regulations wise there really isn't any going back.
Although I do see merit in what you are saying and I think my opinions have probably been swayed by some of the eloquent arguments that have been made in favour of Jack being a bit more savvy about it all. I still don't think he really was aware in the same way that I think Sam was at this point.

However, I imagine Sam being very aware of the danger during that invite. To me, what's going through her head is simply that if she goes, she will end up in a situation where something will happen that can't be ignored or undone - and by that I mean at the very least they'd end up in an overtly romantic/sexual situation. It's definite fork in the road moment: go fishing, most likely become lovers and risk it all (and I am not talking about career here - I am talking about their friendship, her heart etc.) Or... politely decline,things stay as they are but there's no personal or professional risks taken. I think I posted a fairly detailed analysis of this on the ship appreciation thread recently so I won't go into detail about it all again now but suffice to say I think it's about a lot more than just professional risk here.

The other thing I want to say about this scene is how beautifully lit it is. Both RDA and AT look absolutely gorgeous; Simply beautiful.

The second scene which I think is of importance between them is the briefing room where Jack beams down as a hologram to inform them that basically he’s going to sacrifice his life to blow up the ship. All through that scene it is as though Jack is speaking to Sam, his attention is on her, not on Hammond or Teal’c. Her protest when she realises what he’s going to do and the way he cuts her off suggests to me that he knows her feelings about his sacrifice are very personal and he invokes their professional relationship to stop her doing anything to help him, giving her a direct order and calling her Major. He is absolutely horrified when he sees her and Teal’c aboard the Asgard ship and yells that he gave them a direct order, and she is quick to tell him Hammond overruled him.

Yes, that scene is much more overt. Sam is clearly quite distressed at the thought of his life being forfiet, and Jack is very much aware of that, focussed on her and he does revert to the very professional forms of address, I think specifically to focus her back on the job.



I have to admit I've never looked at the EVA scene with a shippy mindset before but having read the comments here I might just have to go back and see if I see what Rachel sees.


I just love this episode all round for being a complete package. It is a bit of a pity that real life surgery necessitated Daniel not being with them on Thor's ship but aside from that I loved everythign about this episode.

[EvenstarSRV]

It's interesting you should say that. Because my husband (he and I are both veterans) has a terrible problem with D&C. In reality, after D&C, Sam and Jack would have been put on different teams. Regardless of whether or not they acted on those feelings. It was the right thing to do for everyone.

The important thing is, once we learn that the reason Jack stayed there at the forcefield to die there with Sam was because he *loved* her.. then we know that love is already endangering the rest of the team. Daniel and Teal'c were waiting within the blast area, too, because they didn't know what was happening and because neither Sam nor Jack had come out to them yet. If Jack hadn't been unwilling to leave Sam because of his inappropriate feelings, he would have done the reasonable thing, run out, and saved not only himself but Teal'c and Daniel.

But Jack couldn't leave either. There were still force-fields up between where he was and the outside of the ship where Daniel and Teal'c were (Teal'c was prevented from re-entering the ship by one). So Jack was trapped just as much as Sam, only he didn't have approaching Jaffa on his side.

So to me, the angst that Jack was feeling at that moment was that he was stuck there, unable to either escape or rescue Sam, and was likely going to soon see her killed in front of him by the incoming Jaffa. And in that agonizing moment, it crashed upon him that he cared for Sam a lot more than he was suppose to (as in more than teammates/friends). The shocked look on his face suggested to me that he had no idea the depth of his emotions until those extreme circumstances exposed them.

As far as the EVA goes, for me, the subtext of the decision being more than a simple question of who is best for the job is there. Primarily because of the ordering of that discussion - Teal'c volunteers, Jack says he was going to do it, Sam suddenly mentions radiation is a concern (for the first time in the discussion) and looks uncomfortable with the idea of Jack doing it, Teal'c confirms his symbiote can protect him, Jack acquiesces almost unhappily.

For Sam and Jack, I'm not even sure they would explicitly know on a conscious level what's motivating them in that discussion beyond the radiation being a factor - and I'm fairly certain that if asked they would be in denial that it was anything more than Teal'c being the best person for the job that was a factor in the decision.

And I don't deny that the radiation concern was valid or that the right decision was made. But was the right decision made for the right reason or the wrong one?

For me, it was the right decision for the right reason. If the radiation hadn't been a significant concern, Sam wouldn't have brought it up, letting Jack and Teal'c then decide who'd go. Since it was one, she mentioned it to provide Jack with an important reason to let Teal'c go instead of him. Teal'c looked rather excited to be doing an EVA and jumped at the chance (his 'one small step for a Jaffa' joke), and Jack a little bummed that he couldn't do the cool EVA. IMHO, Sam and Teal'c would have been just as worried about Jack if he'd be the one to do the EVA, as Sam and Jack were about Teal'c.

And like I've said earlier, this is very likely simply my non-shipper mindset. I basically need to be hit over the head with rather obvious scenes in order to see a shippy motivation behind either Sam or Jack's actions. In the fishing invite scene I see it a bit, Sam's a little flustered because she's just recently coming to grips with her feelings for Jack, making being alone with Jack in such casual circumstances an awkward prospect. But the EVA scene, when the radiation is such a real, reasonable, and logical motivation, not so much.

And since I likely won't be able to get online much tomorrow, Merry Christmas everyone!! My present to the thread for tolerating a non-shipper like me, a smilie I never thought I'd ever use:

[penjab]

But Jack couldn't leave either. There were still force-fields up between where he was and the outside of the ship where Daniel and Teal'c were (Teal'c was prevented from re-entering the ship by one). So Jack was trapped just as much as Sam, only he didn't have approaching Jaffa on his side.

So to me, the angst that Jack was feeling at that moment was that he was stuck there, unable to either escape or rescue Sam, and was likely going to soon see her killed in front of him by the incoming Jaffa. And in that agonizing moment, it crashed upon him that he cared for Sam a lot more than he was suppose to (as in more than teammates/friends). The shocked look on his face suggested to me that he had no idea the depth of his emotions until those extreme circumstances exposed them.


For me, it was the right decision for the right reason. If the radiation hadn't been a significant concern, Sam wouldn't have brought it up, letting Jack and Teal'c then decide who'd go. Since it was one, she mentioned it to provide Jack with an important reason to let Teal'c go instead of him. Teal'c looked rather excited to be doing an EVA and jumped at the chance (his 'one small step for a Jaffa' joke), and Jack a little bummed that he couldn't do the cool EVA. IMHO, Sam and Teal'c would have been just as worried about Jack if he'd be the one to do the EVA, as Sam and Jack were about Teal'c.

And like I've said earlier, this is very likely simply my non-shipper mindset. I basically need to be hit over the head with rather obvious scenes in order to see a shippy motivation behind either Sam or Jack's actions. In the fishing invite scene I see it a bit, Sam's a little flustered because she's just recently coming to grips with her feelings for Jack, making being alone with Jack in such casual circumstances an awkward prospect. But the EVA scene, when the radiation is such a real, reasonable, and logical motivation, not so much.

And since I likely won't be able to get online much tomorrow, Merry Christmas everyone!! My present to the thread for tolerating a non-shipper like me, a smilie I never thought I'd ever use:

I am not so sure this is just because you are a non-shipper. I tend to agree with your perspective on both points. I don't think he had realized the depth of his feelings for Carter until that moment at the force field in D&C. I also don't think feelings necessarily had anything to do with the decision on who went EVA in Nemesis. I think it was practicality that prevailed. It made sense. That is how I have always seen it and I consider myself a shipper, at least up to a point.

[JenniferJF]

But Jack couldn't leave either. There were still force-fields up between where he was and the outside of the ship where Daniel and Teal'c were (Teal'c was prevented from re-entering the ship by one). So Jack was trapped just as much as Sam, only he didn't have approaching Jaffa on his side.

I don't think that's true. During D&C, Freya specifically asks him, "So you could still have saved yourself?" and he replies, "Yes," indicating there weren't other forcefields between himself and freedom and his choice, really, was between standing there and dying with Sam or living.

So to me, the angst that Jack was feeling at that moment was that he was stuck there, unable to either escape or rescue Sam, and was likely going to soon see her killed in front of him by the incoming Jaffa. And in that agonizing moment, it crashed upon him that he cared for Sam a lot more than he was suppose to (as in more than teammates/friends). The shocked look on his face suggested to me that he had no idea the depth of his emotions until those extreme circumstances exposed them.

I agree he didn't know the full depths of his emotions, but I think the shock and horror on his face and, in fact, the "more than he's supposed to" wasn't just referring to his emotions, but the results of those emotions. As Jack said in WoO when discussing losing Charlie with the man who'd lost his wife, he (Jack) "Couldn't go through that again". I think that was absolutely true - Jack couldn't face the pain of loss like that again. And that's why I think when he said, "I'd rather die myself than lose Carter," he meant that *literally*. In that instant at the forcefield he realized that he actually cared so much for her - more than he was 'supposed' to - because he knew that he couldn't survive her death, a repeat of the grief and black depression he was plunged into after Charlie died. So he was going to stand there and die rather than live through that again.

But, of course, that's based on my views as a 'shipper' and on the idea that Jack never quite got over Charlie's death and a lot of his humor and sarcasm were actually a self-protective means of hiding his own vulnerability and the way he treated Sam, especially - even down to allowing the regulations to remain a barrier - were largely attempts to protect himself from recurring loss.

[EvenstarSRV]

I don't think that's true. During D&C, Freya specifically asks him, "So you could still have saved yourself?" and he replies, "Yes," indicating there weren't other forcefields between himself and freedom and his choice, really, was between standing there and dying with Sam or living.

Well, according to the transcript Jack actually says "I guess" in response to that question from Freya/Anise. Perhaps there weren't more force-fields directly in front of him before he turned around to go back for Sam, so he may have guessed he could still escape but wasn't certain about it.

But based on the force-field that kept Teal'c from re-entering the ship as shown in Upgrades, even if Jack had tried to run and escape with Daniel and Teal'c he'd have been prevented from leaving the ship. If he'd tried, we'd likely have gotten another force-field moment but with Jack on one side and Daniel and Teal'c on the other, with Jack probably telling them to get to the Gate and them refusing to leave and asking what happened to Sam.

It is perhaps telling that Jack didn't even try to escape and instead remained at the force-field with Sam, though the majority of his actions in that moment were spent actively trying to rescue her, not simply waiting to die with her. In fact, I'd say it was Daniel and Teal'c who had the totally clear means of escape, but they didn't try to escape either and even though they could do nothing to rescue Sam and Jack, chose to stay and potentially die with them. That agonizing moment didn't bring up any deeper feelings for them like his deeper feelings for Sam were brought up for Jack, but in terms of staying and dying with their friends or living, Daniel and Teal'c had more of a choice than Jack did, IMHO.

[Rachel500]

So, Merry Christmas to all and a quick question:

Are we continuing the shipper rewatch into S4?

[Nynaeve506]

So, Merry Christmas to all and a quick question:

Are we continuing the shipper rewatch into S4?

I hope so!! I know I'm up for doing a couple reviews (if people can stand my irreverent recaps)

[Cagranosalis]

So, Merry Christmas to all and a quick question:

Are we continuing the shipper rewatch into S4?

Yes! VSS has asked me if I'd organise S4. I am going to post details and ask for later for volunteers a bit later tonight. Watch this space.