Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

I have to admit New Ground is actually one of my top 10 favourite episodes. Primarily because it's just a great Stargate episode - and a great team episode which they needed after the turmoil of Shades of Grey.

I have to admit that New Ground was always my least favourite episode of season 3 (yes, I preferred even Seth and Demons to NG ) and so consequently wasn't high on my rewatch list..But now, after seeing it for the first time in years I gotta say you guys are right; it *is* a great team episode and I loved it. The importance of its positioning after SoG had also never occured to me before so thanks for pointing it out.

I do think Nyan was used as the blueprint for Jonas Quinn later - and Teal'c's mentoring of Jonas kind of echoes the dynamic he had with Nyan. In fact, back around when S6 aired for the first time, I remember noting the similarity and wondering why they couldn't have just gone with Nyan as the fourth member of SG1 (this was in the first couple of episodes when Jonas hadn't completely won me over as he later did).

I agree to an extent. When the news first came about Daniel's replacement I immidiately thought of Nyan and I was kinda hoping they'd bring his character back (I like him very much too, in case someone was wondering ). On paper Jonas and Nyan seemed very alike but when I actually saw Jonas/CN for the first time I didn't notice any similarities. In my mind they were two very different characters right from the beginning (just like I never thought Jonas was only a guy filling Daniel's place but a great character in his own right) and I agree that Jonas was better suited to be on the SG team.

Hence you do get this overall professionalism vibe between the two of them rather than the easy camaraderie and closeness of Urgo, and other earlier episodes. And can I just fangurl over how wonderful that is? Because realistically, this is how the characters would react given previous events, and for a show that never really did bother with showing the impact of events in a big way, this more subtle showing -whether accidental or deliberate - is just fantastic.

Again, never before had I seen any cooling in S/J relations after SoG but after reading your post I paid special attention and I guess you are right. Again, thanks for pointing it out. Still, I like all the looks Sam gives Jack when he's mouthing off to Rigar.

[Nefer]

Catching up! I'm catching up!
Slowly but surely.

Seriously guys, I love this thread. Finally some serious discussion.

Did I already miss A hundred day? Darn. Is it possible to add thoughts later when I get there?

Keep up the intriguing discussion.

*Nefer*

[JenniferJF]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but in New Ground (which I rewatched today just to make sure) I didn't see anything snarky in Sam's attitude towards Jack at the beginning. I even tried to this time . Her reaction is a bit more restrained than it was before 100 Days, but I think she's genuinely amused (her smile seems genuine right at the end of her comment). I've always thought her reserve was caused by an increased awareness of her own feelings for Jack and knowing she needed to keep those contained and hidden, so she is less openly demonstrative than she had been before that awareness.

Overall, given the relatively dark subject matter of becoming a prisoner of war in a small cage and torture, I think the more subdued humor and reactions throughout is only fitting and not really fallout from the end of Shades of Grey. I sort of always felt Daniel and Sam (and Teal'c, too, as a warrior) would be able to separate emotion from the situation and understand why Jack did what he did and not take it personally.

But that's just my $.02, of course

EDIT: Though, I love Seth (I think Jacob and Jack would be entertaining discussing cardboard), so what do I know

[Buc252]

I have to admit, everything else aside, I love New Ground for five minutes of the episode: when the military guy shoots and stuns Sam and then Jack. Yes, first and foremost, it's whumping, which I like. But in addition, it tells me a few things: firstly, that Jack is stronger than we think. Sam gets shot only moments before Jack and *doesn't* land against the grate, getting an extended charge from that, and yet she and Jack awaken at about the same time. I prefer to think that it's because Jack is strong and not that Sam is weak. <g> The other thing is Daniel's reaction while Jack is lying against the grate being electrocuted. Any doubt we had about lingering animosity between them is gone when you hear how frantic he is. "YOU'LL KILL HIM!"

And lastly regarding this incident, I wish we'd seen some kind of afteraffect in Jack, because it's hard to believe even he could take the jolts he took and not have any afteraffect whatsoever. I prefer to imagine that adrenalin got him through the gate where he promptly collapsed and had to be treated for the trauma with Sam at his side while Daniel kept an eye on Teal'c and Nyan, who also needed treatment.

[Pol]

Awesome sig, Buc!

[Rachel500]

Catching up! I'm catching up!
Slowly but surely.

Seriously guys, I love this thread. Finally some serious discussion.

Did I already miss A hundred day? Darn. Is it possible to add thoughts later when I get there?

Keep up the intriguing discussion.

*Nefer*

Absolutely possible to continue to post anything you want to discuss about Sam/Jack

[Cagranosalis]

Banner by Jumble.

Synopsis

The episode opens with Bra’tac coming through the gate with a wounded (later to die) jaffa and reports that Chulak has been attacked by Apophis who appears to be indiscriminately wiping out jaffa. Cue lots of jaffa angst between Teal’c and Bra’tac. The work out that Apophis is trying to find the harcesis child. Daniel tells them the child was taken to Kheb which Bra’tac reveals is a sacred forbidden place
that the goa’uld fear. A bit of nifty research later and between them they work out which planet was Kheb. Hammond agrees a mission there for SGs 1 and 2.
SG-2 remain at the gate while SG-1 and Bra’tac track movements of people on the planet. The come across the bodies of some jaffa that have been mysteriously burnt. They also find the body of a priestess which they deduce had been carrying a child.
The carry on exploring and find a temple, which Daniel, Bra’tac and Jack enter only to find a monk who asks them if they seek oneness with Desala.
After some discussion Jack decides not to seek enlightenment, Bra’tac is disqualified because he has a symbiote so Daniel settles down with the monk for some quasi Buddhist enlightenment chit chat in order to find out where the child is.
Daniel, meditates, tries to light candles with his mind etc. Eventually succeeding. Except he doesn’t but more of that later.
Cutting to the very long chase, it turns out that the monk isn’t really a monk, but is Oma Desala - an ascended ancient (although we don’t find that out until much later) and she is looking after and protecting the child with her vast powers. Oma needs Daniel to figure out for himself that she can protect the child better than him, hence all the ruse.
Meanwhile, outside the forces of Apophis have descended on the planet and the rest of the team are overrun and penned in. There’s a showdown between them and Daniel tells Jack and the others to drop their weapons. They do so, the jaffa fire but they weapons fire is mysteriously deflected and the jaffa killed with some kind of electrical weapon (ah, so that’s what killed the ones in the forest).
Then Oma makes her way to the gate, with the child taking him to safety.




Favourite Line

Jack: "If we happen to make it out in one piece, remind me to harm Daniel severely."



Favourite moment

Daniel’s little speech at the end to convince Jack and the others to put down arms, and the rather oddly regretful way he says "bye" to the jaffa who are about to be killed.



Review

You can probably tell this isn’t a favourite of mine, which is a bit of a shame given how significant both the harcesis child is and (as we later learn) Oma Desala and who/what she is. I just find myself a bit bored by all the enlightenment stuff in the middle. Having said all that, this is neatly dovetailed by the action at both the start and the end so it paces the episode out well.
It also bothered me how the child is very obviously Caucasian here despite the fact neither Sha’re or Apophis’ host are. Later on he’s Eurasian though, so that’s OK.
Although as mentioned the actual character development for both Daniel and Bra’tac here is fairly significant and there are repercussions here that stretch right through into season 8.
Jack’s in good form here with the odd one liner and comment, and Daniel and Jack’s relationship and banter gets a good airing too which is always lovely to see.
This not being a high tech episode, or one focused on her development, Sam really doesn’t do much beyond turn up and follow orders and maybe that’s part if the reason why I don’t like it - because I’ll freely admit to being biased towards Sam-centric episodes.


General Observations

We learn a lot about the Jaffa here - that they are cremated on death and that Bra’tac is 135 years old and will not be able to carry a symbiote for much longer.

Kheb is a holy place of theirs.

They are exceptionally good at tracking skills. A bit too good IMO!

Bra’tac, who starts the episode thinking he’s weary and wondering about his mortality comes out of the temple feeling invigorated for the struggle against the goa’uld. It’s a very underplayed moment but hugely significant to Bra’tac character development.

Why oh why had Daniel never mentioned that the harcesis was taken to Kheb before? You’d think something like that might be relevant?

It takes them almost no time at all to work out which address is Kheb. Which, again, calls to mind why they never really thought to look before.

Jack demonstrates an extraordinary amount of faith it Daniel almost from the start; disarming himself on Daniel’s instinct alone. This is a great demonstration of their friendship.




Implications for The Ship

Well, none really. Jack and Sam are very professional and all business all the way through and, actually, the focus on any relationships here would be better described as between Jack and Daniel and Bra’tac and Teal’c. Hardly any interaction between Sam and Jack at all beyond professional. I guess you might say that’s a knock on again from Shades Of Grey if they’ve not quite got the team equilibrium back but this is a really not an episode for dealing with their relationship at all.

[Devilish Me]

A-ha! I'm just running through...

[Rachel500]

Maternal Instinct

It is a Daniel episode with Bra'tac occupying the sub-plot.

I think what I love about the episode is the fact that it is the first introduction to Ascended beings. There is a real sense in this episode that they're very powerful (especially with the whole wiping out of the Jaffa with the clouds and the lighting) balanced by a greater knowledge and wisdom which is later somewhat eroded by the 'non-interference in the lower planes' and the revelation of their past as mortal Ancients. When Oma flies off in her glowy form and you get the reaction shots of the other SG team at the gate, there is just this sense that they (and therefore we) are seeing something awe-inspiring.

Actually, for me, the episode shows how Daniel and Jack come at things very differently and the usual push/pull between them. Jack finds the whole thing a waste of time but lets Daniel do his thing. He's very sceptical about Daniel having powers and while he lowers his weapon after Daniel's impassioned speech, he's way behind Bra'tac and Teal'c. I'm not sure Daniel would consider Jack's actions as a complete show of trust in him but it's clear the two men are working through any issues they had remaining after Shades of Grey.

Jack and Sam

While they are completely professional, what is emphasised is the similarity in viewpoint between them and their working well together.

She and Jack just work seamlessly together here and, if I recall right, there is a nice moment where she's helping him off with his pack when they first get to the temple.

Sam doesn't believe in 'magical' powers anymore than Jack does; she argues for his side of the debate when they check in with Daniel in the temple at one point. She follows Jack's lead here.

From a continuity perspective, whatever trust issues arose from Shades of Grey, I think have been put behind them as far as Sam and Jack are concerned. Which is a good set-up for the next episodes which effectively bring back the flirting...

[josiane]

Banner by luvnjack

Synopsis:

SG1 send a MALP through to a planet where there is an enormous pyramid, inside of which is a crystal skull on a pedestal. Daniel realises that the skull is the same as the one his grandfather, Nicholas Ballard, found in a ruined temple in Belize in 1971. SG1 go through the gate and into the pyramid, and Daniel bends down to examine the skull. When he looks into its eyes the radiation in the pyramid increases dramatically. Teal'c fires his zat at the skull, and Daniel collapses and seems to vanish. The radiation levels are still high and Sam collapses too, so the rest of SG1 run back to the gate. Teal'c recovers from the radiation sickness first, with the help of his symbiote, and returns to the planet to fetch the skull, in the hope that it might help them find out what happened to Daniel. Daniel wakes up when Teal'c is there and realises that Teal'c can't see him and he must be out of phase. He returns to Earth with Teal'c and observes as SG1, along with Siler and Dr Rothman, fail to come up with any answers. Eventually they go to visit Daniel's grandfather, who has been in a psychiatric institution for twenty years. No-one had believed his story of what happened to him when he found the first skull in Belize - that he was transported to a cavern where he met some giant aliens. Nick convinces SG1 to bring him to the SGC with them so he can see the skull they found. Daniel realises that Nick can see him (Nick had thought he was a hallucination at first) and the two of them convince General Hammond to let SG1 return to the planet and complete the process that Teal'c interrupted with his zat. This time everyone except for Teal'c goes out of phase - Teal'c returns to Earth, and then the giant aliens do come. They discover they are enemies of the Goa'uld, and the aliens ask that Nick stays with them.

Favourite moment:

When Jack gets out of bed and Teal'c 'helps' him back - SG1 doesn't often do pure slapstick, but it's done so deadpan and yet also entirely in character.

Favourite quote:

Nick: Now we must wait for the giant aliens.
Jack: That just has a nice ring to it.

Analysis:

I have always liked this episode - it stands out in my mind as something different. Daniel gets some great moments (Jack-esque sarcasm in full flow) and I like the Daniel backstory and the revelation that his grandfather experienced the same isolation from the academic community and dismissal of his alien-related theories. Having said that, there's not really all that much to analyse about it, as it's very much a self-contained one-off. I do like the way SG1 come to realise that someone whom society has labelled insane is actually really very much like them - it's nice to see the series picking up this theme from the movie.

Implications for Sam/Jack:

Not much overtly shippy, but this is the first episode after the Hundred Days/Shades of Grey sticky patch where Sam and Jack return to normal. We get several good looks between them, and an amused reaction from Sam (the classic duck head and smile) to Jack's 'Nintendos pass through everything' comment, plus there's the fact that in the scene in the briefing room at the beginning they are sitting so close that Sam's knee is practically in Jack's lap. There's also that lovely scene at the elevator, when they think they're alone, which I think encapsulates a lot of what makes Sam and Jack Sam and Jack. There's an understanding and an affection to it, and the way Jack responds to Sam's 'I guess it's because we miss him' with a flippant 'Or radiation sickness'. It's a perfect example of how he knows exactly how to make her smile, when he thinks she's feeling a bit down, every bit as much as it is Jack's way of not going there with anything vaguely emotional. I think the fact that they do this does hinder them a little in the long run - the automatic defaulting to humour doesn't help when they might actually be better off talking about their feelings, but then again, that's just not them.

[Nynaeve506]

Favorite part of Crystal Skull: Sam slung over Jack's shoulder, her bum in the air as they ran in front of the very obvious green screen LOL.

Seriously - I though this episode had some great subtle moments, the stuff this ship is made of, as it builds the foundation and shows us that everything is OKAY between them after 100 Days and Shades of Grey. I think. I'm tired...

[JenniferJF]

Favorite part of Crystal Skull: Sam slung over Jack's shoulder, her bum in the air as they ran in front of the very obvious green screen LOL.

Seriously - I though this episode had some great subtle moments, the stuff this ship is made of, as it builds the foundation and shows us that everything is OKAY between them after 100 Days and Shades of Grey. I think. I'm tired...

I agree completely. I think it's the beginning of The Long Days of submerging their feelings

[Rachel500]

Crystal Skull

I really enjoy this episode. It is a Daniel episode and while it is a little startling that he suddenly acquires a Grandfather we haven't heard of before, it's a great relationship to explore - the whole abandonment issues vs the academic paralleling.

Love the moment Jack tries to get up and falls flat on his face; it is just hilarious and Chris Judge plays it so straight as Teal'c in that scene.

I do think that this is where Daniel and Jack's relationship actually gets completely back to normal. Daniel gets to hear Jack's complete faith and belief in Daniel without Jack being aware of his presence so Daniel knows it's the unadorned truth. And I think that more than anything helps him over any remaining issues stirred by Shades of Grey.

Sam and Jack

This is also where Sam and Jack get back to their pre-A Hundred Days dynamic for me.

Apart from doing the whole carrying her to safety thing, hers is the first name out of his mouth when he wakes up.

There is just a lovely underlying flirtiness between them the whole way through. Love the scenes in the mental hospital when they're standing together in matching leather jackets and looking like a couple.

And the scene of them walking to the elevator together just shows that easy friendship they have at this point underpining their attraction.

It really builds and sets up for the fishing invite in the next episode really well.

[Cagranosalis]

Crystal Skull

There is just a lovely underlying flirtiness between them the whole way through. Love the scenes in the mental hospital when they're standing together in matching leather jackets and looking like a couple.

It really builds and sets up for the fishing invite in the next episode really well.

I was about to bring that up since I love that scene (all round but espcially for the closeness of Sam and Jack in it) but you said it before I did.

I don't have much else to add really, except yes on eveyrthing that's been said before and, great review Josiane

[gater62]

Yes, and yes. I agree with all of you.