Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

In my personal canon of the show, I do have Hammond and Jack knowing it was Makepeace who was the mole and that they had suspected him for some time (given after Medrona they had to have realised that there was a leak because the gate travel was so well coordinated with their own). And for me, Makepeace being given SG1 to lead and the show about Jack leaving for Edora in front of Makepeace is very much part of that. I guess I assume Hammond and Jack has some way of communicating (possibly via the Asgard beaming them both to a ship in Earth's orbit) to debate how to play it once Jack knows he needs to get offworld. And they arrange to do it in front of Makepeace to solidify Jack's cover.

I forgot about that part in bold. I'd always suspected it was a rather contrived coincidence that SG-1 ended up with Makepeace and they all ended up on the planet where the drop was made. But if I look at it as a planned set up to trap Makepeace specifically, it's much easier to believe. In addition they needed to ferret out the whole tech-jacking organization from top to bottom, and probably needed more evidence than on Makepeace than what they had. So just arresting him would have been problematic.

[josiane]

Looks like you've had a great discussion on Shades of Grey - will have to catch up later, but am off out in a bit so I should post this first:

Banner by Jumble

Synopsis:

The SGC gets its first hit on Sam's 'cold dialling' programme, whereby the dialling computer periodically attempts to dial addresses from the Abydos cartouche that they haven't been able to get through to before. The planet they discover is one where the stargate has just been uncovered by two archaeologists. SG1 go through to discover that this world is in the midst of a war between the Bedrosians, who believe life originated there, and the Optricans, who believe it originated 'out there' () and that humans were brought to the planet through a 'gateway' which was said to be on the Bedrosian continent. This is therefore a somewhat sticky political situation to find themselves in, and Jack is all for beating a hasty retreat, but then the Bedrosian military turn up, having been tipped off by one of the archaeologists that aliens have shown up. The Bedrosians take Jack, Sam and Daniel into custody, but Teal'c, who was a little distance away in the undergrowth, manages to escape. However he gets shot by a Bedrosian soldier and is blinded shortly afterwards. Nyan, the 'good' archaeologist, rescues Teal'c and takes him to a safe cave where he uses a device to start to heal Teal's eyesight. Meanwhile Jack, Sam and Daniel are being interrogated by Rigar, the chief Bedrosian guy, about where they come from. He is determined that they are Optrican spies and that the stargate activation is an illusion. Eventually Teal'c and Nyan come up with a plan to rescue SG1 and they all manage to make it back to Earth, taking Nyan with them.

Favourite quotes:

Rigar: Wormhole?
Giant worms. Huge.

You know that 'we come in peace' business? Bite me.

Analysis:

This is one of those episodes that I tend to overlook, but on watching it again I noticed that most of what happens is explored again in the future - we have similarities with Nyan to Jonas and the Kelownan civil war, and also to Memento in season 6 and Icon in season 8, where SG1 initiate first contact with people who are long abandoned by the Goa'uld and set off all sorts of political and warlike problems when their history and the gate are uncovered. It's one of the things I quite like about SG1 is that you can see how themes and ideas like this progress throughout the series, as the writers return to essentially the same basic material again but treat it differently according to the point that SG1's story has reached. We never see Nyan again but I can't help seeing in him an early form of Jonas.

It's also a good solid team episode, with Teal'c's determination to rescue the rest of his team, and the rest of the team refusing to give up Teal'c to the Bedrosians, and I think no coincidence that we have an episode like this right after the stresses of Shades of Grey - nothing particularly outstanding, just a good, solid, 'recovery' episode for the team.

But most of all it's a great Teal'c episode, watching him struggle with being helpless after being blinded, and having to trust Nyan, but all the while determined that he will rescue SG1. I do love Teal'c so much sometimes

I think my favourite scene, and this is supporting the teaminess of it, is the tri-fold interrogation of Jack, Sam and Daniel about the gate, where Sam is focused on the physics, Daniel on the mythology, and Jack is just a smart-a$$ - just makes me smile

And one teeny tiny thing I have to mention - the Bedrosians have the weirdest and most impractical looking guns of any alien race, surely? They look like irons strapped on the end of hoover attachments!


Implications for Sam/Jack:

None, really. A couple of things to mention perhaps:

I thought Sam was a little snarky with Jack right at the start, explaining the cold dialling programme (or maybe that was just me) - all not quite 100% forgiven from Shades of Grey yet?

And of course we have what now feels like a terribly incongruous use of the S/J theme, in the scene in the cave with Teal'c and Nyan. Of course at this point the S/J theme hasn't really become such, having only been used in Points of View, so I guess they just thought it was some nice angsty music for the scene where Teal'c worries about being helpless, but in hindsight it does seem weird to hear those familiar notes playing out with no S/J in sight!

[slurredspeech]

And of course we have what now feels like a terribly incongruous use of the S/J theme, in the scene in the cave with Teal'c and Nyan. Of course at this point the S/J theme hasn't really become such, having only been used in Points of View, so I guess they just thought it was some nice angsty music for the scene where Teal'c worries about being helpless, but in hindsight it does seem weird to hear those familiar notes playing out with no S/J in sight!

Very nice review, and I apologize for having nothing of substance to add yet, but I just have to say -- YES.

It's really funny, but when I first watched the episode - which was after Sam and Jack became SamandJack and their feelings have been brought to light - I was like... lolwut? Are Teal'c and Nyan to become an item? And if so, why are they stealing Sam and Jack theme, OMG GET YOUR OWN.

I'm amused by simple things. Obviously.

[hedwig]

And of course we have what now feels like a terribly incongruous use of the S/J theme, in the scene in the cave with Teal'c and Nyan. Of course at this point the S/J theme hasn't really become such, having only been used in Points of View, so I guess they just thought it was some nice angsty music for the scene where Teal'c worries about being helpless, but in hindsight it does seem weird to hear those familiar notes playing out with no S/J in sight!

Just popping in to note that the s/j theme has been used in other episodes, too. As well as on SGA for Elizabeth and Simon (The Intruder I believe it was, in the scene where Elizabeth has fixed dinner for them and is trying to convince him to come to Atlantis). And in SG1, Enemies(?) on the bridge of the mothership when Jack and Daniel are talking about what happened to Teal'c when he and Jack went after the gliders that attacked their ship and they thought Teal'c was dead. If it wasn't the s/j theme in those instances, it was so darned close it was difficult to tell.

[EvenstarSRV]

I really like New Ground, it's a great team ep, and coming right after Shades of Grey I think shows just how well they work together and trust each other, despite rocky times. It's great to see Teal'c get a strong storyline that doesn't involve the Jaffa or Goa'uld, and like you mentioned, the interrogation scene switching between Jack, Sam, and Daniel is great.

Very nice review, and I apologize for having nothing of substance to add yet, but I just have to say -- YES.

It's really funny, but when I first watched the episode - which was after Sam and Jack became SamandJack and their feelings have been brought to light - I was like... lolwut? Are Teal'c and Nyan to become an item? And if so, why are they stealing Sam and Jack theme, OMG GET YOUR OWN.

I'm amused by simple things. Obviously.

Ok, really showing my ship ignorance here, but Sam/Jack has theme music??

[slurredspeech]

Ok, really showing my ship ignorance here, but Sam/Jack has theme music??

GASP!

Yes. Yes, they do. Joel The Music Wizzard of Stargate is a genius.

[Cagranosalis]

I really like New Ground, it's a great team ep, and coming right after Shades of Grey I think shows just how well they work together and trust each other, despite rocky times. It's great to see Teal'c get a strong storyline that doesn't involve the Jaffa or Goa'uld, and like you mentioned, the interrogation scene switching between Jack, Sam, and Daniel is great.

I'll ditto that. I could never work up the enthusiasm for the Jaffa mythology so Teal'c stories often bored me - which is a shame because this episode does show what a great character he is when given something non Jaffa centric to do. I liked Chimera and Avatr for similar reasons.


Great review Josi. I saw the slight snark too and I do think for a couple of episodes after Shades of Grey there was an undercurrent. I think the team probably accepted what Jack did but full forgivness didn't come for a while.

[VSS]

GASP!

Yes. Yes, they do. Joel The Music Wizzard of Stargate is a genius.

I really love the music in Stargate, Goldsmith is a Wizzard!

APA called it the S/J angst theme, because they don't play it in Threads (which I had always noticed but couldn't figure out why) because they're finally getting their act together in that ep, but you can hear it when Jack dies in Continuum. Occasionally I also hear a few bars of it played here and there but definitely the entirety of the song is reserved for S/J.

[Rac80]

You know, it wasn't until this discussion that I really thought about it, because watching it I'd always sort of assumed Makepeace was suspected all along, if only because of that little bit of theater performed in Hammond's office by Jack and Hammond over his going to Endora.. in front of Makepeace. That seemed an awfully large scene to act out unless Makepeace was specifically targeted. Plus, as you say, the way he was stuck on SG-1 seems to indicate it was a test of him. If they'd really been concerned about SG-1's loyalty, and not more specifically about Makepeace, I'd think they would have promoted Sam (testing her loyalty) and kept Makepeace where he was. Just mho, of course.

In my personal canon of the show, I do have Hammond and Jack knowing it was Makepeace who was the mole and that they had suspected him for some time (given after Medrona they had to have realised that there was a leak because the gate travel was so well coordinated with their own). And for me, Makepeace being given SG1 to lead and the show about Jack leaving for Edora in front of Makepeace is very much part of that. I guess I assume Hammond and Jack has some way of communicating (possibly via the Asgard beaming them both to a ship in Earth's orbit) to debate how to play it once Jack knows he needs to get offworld. And they arrange to do it in front of Makepeace to solidify Jack's cover.

I agree with you two. well said.



as to the next show (New Ground) I too noticed the increased snarkiness... like they haven't quite forgiven him for keeping a secret from them.....

[Rachel500]

<snippety-snip>

Analysis:

This is one of those episodes that I tend to overlook, but on watching it again I noticed that most of what happens is explored again in the future - we have similarities with Nyan to Jonas and the Kelownan civil war, and also to Memento in season 6 and Icon in season 8, where SG1 initiate first contact with people who are long abandoned by the Goa'uld and set off all sorts of political and warlike problems when their history and the gate are uncovered. It's one of the things I quite like about SG1 is that you can see how themes and ideas like this progress throughout the series, as the writers return to essentially the same basic material again but treat it differently according to the point that SG1's story has reached. We never see Nyan again but I can't help seeing in him an early form of Jonas.

It's also a good solid team episode, with Teal'c's determination to rescue the rest of his team, and the rest of the team refusing to give up Teal'c to the Bedrosians, and I think no coincidence that we have an episode like this right after the stresses of Shades of Grey - nothing particularly outstanding, just a good, solid, 'recovery' episode for the team.

But most of all it's a great Teal'c episode, watching him struggle with being helpless after being blinded, and having to trust Nyan, but all the while determined that he will rescue SG1. I do love Teal'c so much sometimes

<snip>

I have to admit New Ground is actually one of my top 10 favourite episodes. Primarily because it's just a great Stargate episode - and a great team episode which they needed after the turmoil of Shades of Grey.

I do think the scene at the beginning hints that there is lingering tension. Jack's attempt to lighten everything by playing dumb with the cold dialling programme doesn't elicit it's normal appreciation; he and Daniel clash over going initially.

But once they get on the planet and things go pear-shaped, they fall back into being SG1. And they needed that, I think, to move on.

This is a great Teal'c episode. I love Teal'c in this. And Nyan is a great foil for him - Daniel-esque but very much his own character, and there is a lovely dynamic between Teal'c and Nyan. Admittedly, yes, Nyan is one of my favourite guest characters and given that he only ever appears in this one episode, I think that says a lot for how successful he is drawn and acted in New Ground.

I do think Nyan was used as the blueprint for Jonas Quinn later - and Teal'c's mentoring of Jonas kind of echoes the dynamic he had with Nyan. In fact, back around when S6 aired for the first time, I remember noting the similarity and wondering why they couldn't have just gone with Nyan as the fourth member of SG1 (this was in the first couple of episodes when Jonas hadn't completely won me over as he later did).

Sam & Jack

I actually think from Sam's perspective, given the emotional turmoil of A Hundred Days and Shades of Grey, she would have retreated behind her professional mask to protect herself. IMO, Sam now knows she loves Jack (A Hundred Days) but she's convinced he doesn't feel anything for her beyond what's appropriate (his relationship with Laira, his ability to shut them all out so effectively in Shades of Grey), and I think she has thought about it and determined that she's not going to let her feelings interfere with her being on SG1 and working with him.

At this point, I think Jack suspects Sam has feelings for him (given how hard she worked to get him home in A Hundred Days), is aware of his own (and had been for some time), but is working off the basis that he has a lot of making up to do with everyone including Sam if SG1 is going to get back to normal - and that's the priority. And that perhaps whatever Sam did feel for him, whether it was hero worship or something more, has maybe been destroyed by the events of Shades of Grey.

Hence you do get this overall professionalism vibe between the two of them rather than the easy camaraderie and closeness of Urgo, and other earlier episodes. And can I just fangurl over how wonderful that is? Because realistically, this is how the characters would react given previous events, and for a show that never really did bother with showing the impact of events in a big way, this more subtle showing -whether accidental or deliberate - is just fantastic.

[hedwig]

In fact, back around when S6 aired for the first time, I remember noting the similarity and wondering why they couldn't have just gone with Nyan as the fourth member of SG1 (this was in the first couple of episodes when Jonas hadn't completely won me over as he later did).

I never had the feeling that Nyan would have worked as an SG1 team member. I think he would have fit into that group of 8 or 9 try-outs that tried and failed. He just didn't have whatever it takes to be on an SG team, especially the "frontline, premier" team. Even in Meridian, I thought the character of Jonas did. To me, Nyan just seemed way more naive or innocent(?)/childlike(?) than Jonas ever did, and Nyan would have wound up being traumatized(?) by things a team member had to do in order to survive ... and would likely have gotten himself killed (as well as maybe one or two of the other team members). (IMO) Nyan would have made a good scientist at the SGC, but nothing more.

Sam & Jack

Hence you do get this overall professionalism vibe between the two of them rather than the easy camaraderie and closeness of Urgo, and other earlier episodes. And can I just fangurl over how wonderful that is? Because realistically, this is how the characters would react given previous events, and for a show that never really did bother with showing the impact of events in a big way, this more subtle showing -whether accidental or deliberate - is just fantastic.

I don't think the professionalism would ever go away. They did still have to work together. But the reserve and hesitation is still there. "Understanding" and "forgiveness" do not always go hand in hand. While I think Jack's teammates understood what he did and why, the forgiveness part took a lot longer to achieve. But since they are teammates, they are not going to let lack of forgiveness get in the way of being there for each other in a situation like this. The forgiveness bit gets shoved into the background while they are all in danger, and getting out of danger safely trumps the whole forgiveness part for the time being.

[Rachel500]

I never had the feeling that Nyan would have worked as an SG1 team member. I think he would have fit into that group of 8 or 9 try-outs that tried and failed. He just didn't have whatever it takes to be on an SG team, especially the "frontline, premier" team. Even in Meridian, I thought the character of Jonas did. To me, Nyan just seemed way more naive or innocent(?)/childlike(?) than Jonas ever did, and Nyan would have wound up being traumatized(?) by things a team member had to do in order to survive ... and would likely have gotten himself killed (as well as maybe one or two of the other team members). (IMO) Nyan would have made a good scientist at the SGC, but nothing more.

See, Jonas in the early episode seemed just as naive as Nyan. Don't get me wrong, I love Jonas as a character, but the artificial similarity between his early character and Nyan was pronounced for me to kind of prompt the question - why create a new character when they could have just used Nyan?

And I'm not sure I agree with you on Nyan. When we meet him he's an archaeologist used to working in the field; he was passionate about finding the truth; brave and courageous in helping Teal'c. I agree there was a naivety about him but had his character been further developed, I could see how he might have worked as SG1's replacement for Daniel.

Having said that, in Aftershocks, I kind of have Nyan quite happy that his helping SG1 escape is his only adventure and he's happy just as part of the base science staff so I do appreciate where you're coming from.

I don't think the professionalism would ever go away. They did still have to work together. But the reserve and hesitation is still there. "Understanding" and "forgiveness" do not always go hand in hand. While I think Jack's teammates understood what he did and why, the forgiveness part took a lot longer to achieve. But since they are teammates, they are not going to let lack of forgiveness get in the way of being there for each other in a situation like this. The forgiveness bit gets shoved into the background while they are all in danger, and getting out of danger safely trumps the whole forgiveness part for the time being.

I agree that they'd never lose being professional with each other but I think for me its degrees of professionalism.

Urgo is one watermark of how flirty/close they are with each other while still being 'professional' overall; New Ground by contrast shows a retreat from that, IMO.

[slurredspeech]

I agree that they'd never lose being professional with each other but I think for me its degrees of professionalism.

Urgo is one watermark of how flirty/close they are with each other while still being 'professional' overall; New Ground by contrast shows a retreat from that, IMO.

Though I agree with you on principle, Urgo and New Ground are very different episodes, presenting very different situations the Team find themselves in. While an inconvenience, and beyond had he stayed with them, it was pretty clear Urgo had no intention of actually harming them. Whereas, in this ep, SG-1 finds themselves in peril on an unknown planet, with no immediate possibility of rescue. So that could be one way of looking at their interaction in this.

In such instances, where the situation is dire, I do think that a strict chain of command and discipline and professionalism - along with working together, of course - is more effective in getting them home alive and safe, than the more chummy attitude. And, trust me, I'm no big fan of either CoC or discipline, by nature.

That said. The order of the episodes - A Hundred Days then Shades of Grey followed by New Ground - does leave their interaction open to interpretation.

[josiane]

This is a great Teal'c episode. I love Teal'c in this. And Nyan is a great foil for him - Daniel-esque but very much his own character, and there is a lovely dynamic between Teal'c and Nyan. Admittedly, yes, Nyan is one of my favourite guest characters and given that he only ever appears in this one episode, I think that says a lot for how successful he is drawn and acted in New Ground.

I do think Nyan was used as the blueprint for Jonas Quinn later - and Teal'c's mentoring of Jonas kind of echoes the dynamic he had with Nyan. In fact, back around when S6 aired for the first time, I remember noting the similarity and wondering why they couldn't have just gone with Nyan as the fourth member of SG1 (this was in the first couple of episodes when Jonas hadn't completely won me over as he later did).

This is a good point, which I hadn't considered, but that aspect of Teal'c, the mentor, is something which always shines when it's allowed to come out. So often, because of the way Teal'c came into SG1 and because he's the alien, he is the one almost being mentored himself, and it's easy to forget that he was (and is) a leader among his people. So it's always nice to see it, and particularly with non-Jaffa characters where you don't expect it.

Sam & Jack

I actually think from Sam's perspective, given the emotional turmoil of A Hundred Days and Shades of Grey, she would have retreated behind her professional mask to protect herself. IMO, Sam now knows she loves Jack (A Hundred Days) but she's convinced he doesn't feel anything for her beyond what's appropriate (his relationship with Laira, his ability to shut them all out so effectively in Shades of Grey), and I think she has thought about it and determined that she's not going to let her feelings interfere with her being on SG1 and working with him.

At this point, I think Jack suspects Sam has feelings for him (given how hard she worked to get him home in A Hundred Days), is aware of his own (and had been for some time), but is working off the basis that he has a lot of making up to do with everyone including Sam if SG1 is going to get back to normal - and that's the priority. And that perhaps whatever Sam did feel for him, whether it was hero worship or something more, has maybe been destroyed by the events of Shades of Grey.

Hence you do get this overall professionalism vibe between the two of them rather than the easy camaraderie and closeness of Urgo, and other earlier episodes. And can I just fangurl over how wonderful that is? Because realistically, this is how the characters would react given previous events, and for a show that never really did bother with showing the impact of events in a big way, this more subtle showing -whether accidental or deliberate - is just fantastic.

Oh absolutely! Because the ship is all reading between the lines, and the subtleties like that. It's part of how it is allowed to grow as part of the characters as they develop, and doesn't feel forced, because it stems from their natural behaviour. And to be honest, it's the main reason I love SG1, because we have these incredibly real characters at the centre of it - we are not told how they feel; we are shown it, and it's far more realistic and powerful for it.

[EvenstarSRV]

GASP!

Yes. Yes, they do. Joel The Music Wizzard of Stargate is a genius.

Ah, that music. I always thought that was just Stargate's version of a 'cue the dramatic/tragic scene', rather like the musical cue they use for the funny scenes, and not something specific to Sam/Jack ship. Cool, something to listen for on rewatches.

I'll ditto that. I could never work up the enthusiasm for the Jaffa mythology so Teal'c stories often bored me - which is a shame because this episode does show what a great character he is when given something non Jaffa centric to do. I liked Chimera and Avatr for similar reasons.

Well, I've personally also generally enjoyed the Jaffa stories for Teal'c, Bloodlines, Serpent's Venom, Changling etc, but it's always nice when they're able highlight the character in non-Jaffa stories as well, like this and Avatar.

It's like I love sciency stories for Sam, like Matter of Time, Learning Curve, etc, but it's also nice to get other kinds of stories for her, like ITLOD, Nightwalkers, etc.