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    Originally posted by VSS View Post
    Nice discussion about Jacob!
    OT excuses
    Spoiler:
    I wish I could contribute something but now not only do I not have regular internet access, I've been blasted with prednisone which is actually kind of fun as long as I don't have to think or sleep.

    I should be able to get Spirits done but if anyone out there cares to do a little writeup on Touchstone over the weekend, PM me. Otherwise, we'll just go ahead with The Fifth Man on Monday because I'm not doing that one. Luckily.
    Actually we (I) will be doing Fifth Race not Fifth Man

    Comment


      Originally posted by silly sally View Post
      Actually we (I) will be doing Fifth Race not Fifth Man
      Hah! I told you these meds mess with my brain! You are absolutely right.
      That is just too funny.
      Last edited by VSS; June 19, 2009, 12:01 PM.

      Comment


        Spirits
        Favorite Quote:
        Jack: How do I know you're really Daniel?
        Daniel: "Because."
        Jack: (Shrugs) "Yeah, Okay."

        Favorite scene: In the beginning when Jack is shot, even though I strongly dislike whump. It was probably quite a shock seeing it for the first time.


        Thanks, jumble!

        According to the GW ranking, Spirits is one of the least-liked episodes of SG-1. Scrolling through the comments, it looks like fans didn’t care for the moralizing, but what really surprised me was how many people did like Tonane. I didn’t like him because he never made any sense to me.
        Spoiler:
        Why did they write a character who used so many modern American turns of phrase when he was supposedly from a pre-contact civilization? And what about all the gestures, and simple fact he talked so darn much around people he’d never met? If you’re Native American or know anyone who is, the way Tonane acted might seem weird to you, especially since he was in an NA community. It did to me. So it occurred to me that there’s some reason why the writer wrote him that way, but I don’t know what it is. Does anyone know what it might be? Maybe there’s no deeper reason, but the characterization just seemed off. Maybe that was the point, to prod people into not to making assumptions. If so, it was by far the most subtle and creative point of the entire episode.


        Anyway, Tonane aside, the opening scene was outstanding for its shock value, and poor Jack’s face when he realized what happened- to me it seemed as if his expression was saying, “Oh great, not again.” I think no one gets whumped more than Jack does. Daniel may die a lot, but Jack is the one who gets abused. RDA did a wonderful job acting just a little mellow on the painkillers. I think he’s been banged up a little himself, hasn’t he?

        Anyway, the infirmary scene was very nice, lots of mutual support there with Sam worried about Jack’s injury and Jack wishing her well with the command. Contrast this with how he acted in Season 8 during Zero Hour. Wow, did he become overprotective! Here, he even knows there could be some significant danger ahead for the team, but she goes off with just a virtual pat on the back. In Season 8 he won’t even let her go until there’s a backup team, despite her years of experience. I found that very interesting.

        Spoiler:
        I liked the way the tribe had integrated the trinium into their lives, but since metalworking was extremely rare among Native Americans (the Salish didn’t, did they?) and we know the refined trinium was very hard, it would’ve been nice to see how they did it just for continuity’s sake.
        It was great to see Connor again, having recovered after his ordeal in the First Commandment, and now he’s team leader. Still a captain, though. Was this particular mission supposed to be low-risk, and that’s why his team was sent in initially?

        Finally, there’s a real briefing room scene! That makes four total this season, with even odds regarding Jack and Sam sitting together. Not nearly as obvious as Season 1. No one answered my question from The Tok’ra- but why did they seem to cut down on the obvious ship in this season? And it’s different- more subtle, I think, as if they’re moving past the physical attraction that’s evident in season 1.

        Is it me or does Jack seem to kind of lose it a little when Sam gets zapped away? That seemed a little odd considering how many times he's been in situations as bad or worse than this. Or was it because it's Sam who's gone missing?

        Spoiler:
        Anyway, after infiltrating and attacking the base, X’els and the other spirits reach a deal with the SGC and their true nature is revealed to Tonane, who seems to accept it. Personally, I don’t think these aliens are as beneficient as the Asgard, because not only were they fooling the people, they were not allowing them to develop on their own, despite what they said. The Asgard only protected the Cimmerians and expected them to advance to the point where they’d start asking questions about the gods themselves, but these aliens seemed to be getting quite a lot out of the arrangement, including a place to live, I think. I wonder if there was something in their past (like the Tollan had experienced) that made them want the tribe to avoid technology altogether? Or is the point the writer was trying to make simply that technology is bad? I wasn't a big fan of how these aliens looked, either. I like my eye candy, what can I say. The goa'uld may be evil, but at least most of them are very attractive.


        Implications for Sam and Jack: It’s nice to see how supportive Jack is of Sam and her first command. He really seems quite sure of her abilities, and if he’s worried he doesn’t show it much. The contrast between this and Exodus and even more so, Zero Hour, is pretty striking. And, IIRC “over my dead body” came up at the beginning of Gemini as well.

        I think it was probably a good thing he’s been in Washington and far removed from the action since season 9, and I wonder how much of that little chat with Landry in Beachhead was really just a joke. There’s a very real possibility she could get killed, and I wonder if that factored into his reluctance all along. Is that part of the reason why Sam ended up at area 51? It was a safer place- at the time anyway.

        Comment


          I didn't like "Spirits" much myself (agreeing with many fans). For one, you're right about Tonane. I kind of felt that while they were trying to make it seem like he was wise because he believed in the spirits, he also seemed a little dumb IMO. The moralizing did get on my nerves as well because despite what happened, nothing really changes at the SGC. We don't see them rallying for better, more natural ways of mining. The mindset to acquire off-world resources is still hot and heavy seasons later. So what exactly was the point of all that moralizing anyway?

          It's been a few months since I last saw the episode, so my memory of it maybe shady. While there has been some debate, I think the official word is that the chemistry between Jack and Sam was put there by RDA and AT and the writers later picked up on it. One could ask whether or not the kissing scene from Broca Divide was meant to be "shippy" initially. I'm sure on some level the writers picked up the chemistry, but the ship is built on a lot of moments from a lot of seasons. I think they could have hypothetically let the matter drop after BD and been done with it, never to return (they did that to John/Teyla).

          On another note - the fact that Connor is a captain and a leader of a team is a little bit of a break from later when Daniel moves for Sam to be team leader and they assign Colonel Makepeace because of rank. Could it have been that the program was too new and they couldn't pull in enough senior officers? Or was it that they suspected Makepeace and wanted to put him in play to smoke him out?

          Comment


            Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post

            It's been a few months since I last saw the episode, so my memory of it maybe shady. While there has been some debate, I think the official word is that the chemistry between Jack and Sam was put there by RDA and AT and the writers later picked up on it. One could ask whether or not the kissing scene from Broca Divide was meant to be "shippy" initially. I'm sure on some level the writers picked up the chemistry, but the ship is built on a lot of moments from a lot of seasons. I think they could have hypothetically let the matter drop after BD and been done with it, never to return (they did that to John/Teyla).
            in my opinion, 'broca divide' was the ptb *officially* coming out with which ship they were sponsoring. that ep could have went any way (sam could have jumped any of the guys, and an excuse would have been given), but they 'chose' sam and jack as their couple.

            all this amanda and rick started it is silly, only in that *they*, the ptb, 'started' it, but it was prob amanda and rick that enhanced it to such a degree that the ptb decided to up the ante by writing it in stronger and more.

            so yeah, it IS amanda and rick's fault. for having such chemistry together.
            sally

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              Hey, can you blame RDA? He has to beat of the chicks with a stick!

              Spoiler:
              Speaking of Jack, I'm super jacked up on adrenaline right now, I have to go on a combat patrol in like an hour and I haven't slept since Thursday. I'm freakin' just through the roof! )#&)! @)#$*! Wow I am wired today
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                Spirits

                I think the reason I don't particularly like this episode is that it just doesn't feel 'right' to me.

                There is too much moralising, to the point were I was shouting, "We get it!"
                I feel that, whilst on the planet, Sam is out-of-character with much of her dialogue. I know that RDA's time was reduced during this episode due to the impending birth of his daughter, so there was a lot of juggling around with the episode. To me, Sam is now spouting much of Jack's dialogue, which didn't feel right.

                It's been while since I last watched this episode, so I'll try to find time to view it again before slating it any more.
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                  Hmm, Spirits isn't one of my favourites either. I haven't watched it in years and I don't really remember it very well to comment in depth on anything

                  Originally posted by VSS View Post
                  Implications for Sam and Jack: It’s nice to see how supportive Jack is of Sam and her first command. He really seems quite sure of her abilities, and if he’s worried he doesn’t show it much. The contrast between this and Exodus and even more so, Zero Hour, is pretty striking. And, IIRC “over my dead body” came up at the beginning of Gemini as well.
                  But I do remember where Sam & Jack are at this point in S2 (how strange is that? ) so I can comment on this

                  It's a very valid point you make VSS. Jack's sure of Sam and her ability to command this mission. If anything by Zero Hour, he's even more sure of her ability. The mitigating factor imo, is the difference of his feelings for her in S2 and S8.

                  I think at this point, they are both under no illusion that they each find the another attractive, but it's been put aside for the sake of SG-1. I think TBFTGOG had a lot to do with that putting aside. They each saw the potential for their relationship, but realised that with the regs, and the war with the Goa'uld, that was never going to happen. I also think they're both unaware the other feels the same way. Instead they're carrying on building that very successful working relationship, and becoming....I wouldn't say friends because they are both too aware of the COC, but certainly friendly colleagues

                  So there is no personal relationship, it's all about work, and in that, Jack can be very openly proud and supportive of his Captain. His other feelings for her he's buried very deep, and if they do surface, he covers them up as swiftly as possible.

                  By S8, well, Jack knows full well he's completely in love with Sam, she's the other half of him, and he absolutely can't stand the thought of losing her out in the field. Especially since he's not there anymore to watch her back.

                  Like you said in The Tok'ra discussion, there's a lot less focus on the personal relationship between Sam and Jack. I think it was deliberate choice tptb made to cool it down a little, because of the regs and the war, plus a lot of S2 is about Sam and her character development; they adddressed all those issues we felt were missing from S1. They didn't want her being seen as Jack's girl, but wanted her to be independent, strong, and see her overcoming some of her personal demons.



                  Man, it feels good to exercise that brain cell with some S/J discussion! Just need to do it a little more to be more coherent instead of rambling I wish I had more time to hang out in here!!! *hugs shippers*
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                    I have to admit that I didn't really enjoy Spirits first time out. I think it was too "Star Trek" in its obvious socio-political messaging. It still feels more like an episode of TNG than Stargate in some ways to me in that sense.

                    I also think as a story a lot was really not well-thought out or executed in terms of the episode in terms of the aliens, their relationship with Tonane and his tribe, the danger to the SGC nor the way it was resolved. It all seemed too formularic and unoriginal in concept to me.

                    It always bemused me that this was Jack who talked the aliens down when Daniel is standing right there. It would have been more in character for him to have turned to Daniel more than he did. I put this down to 'must make the lead the hero' mentality that also had Mitchell talking the commander into letting them go in Bad Guys instead of Daniel.

                    I think Tonane for all of his unauthenticity is a very engaging character; he's very likeable, but naive and childlike in the way he trusts and his expressions. I think he was portrayed that way partially to illustrate why the aliens 'protect' him and the tribe as though they are young children and partially to draw the sympathy of the audience to Tonane and the aliens given the decision to deceive him.

                    I was always sorry more wasn't focused on Hammond's own struggle to reconcile what they were doing.

                    Jack and Sam's relationship in Spirits is set up as one of mentee/mentor professional pride at the beginning. She's about to head out on her first solo command; he's confident in her and proud. But later when he's upset he dismisses her angrily and walks off: she even comments tp Teal'c that she's upset too. Yet from a work point of view once they meet up later, they're in perfect harmony.

                    ---

                    From a production perspective, I read somewhere along time ago that S2 was meant to set-up a Sam-Martouf relationship to effectively move away from the Jack-Sam chemistry that had been shown in S1. Only then TPTB saw the S2 finale with Jack glancing at Sam's naked back and as they felt that had more chemistry than Sam/Martouf, decided to go the route of setting up an actual love story between Sam and Jack.

                    I think Jack and Sam were always meant to have chemistry; AT was very obviously told to stand by RDA in her audition to see how the two of them looked together and a lot of S1 showcases that the two are attracted to each other but its equally made clear that there are regs and they can't be together unless in an alternate reality or under an alien influence.

                    From a character perspective (rather than TPTB decision making!) I can see in S2 both characters focusing on their work relationship. I do think Jack had realised that he had come to care about Sam more than he should (and had done since ITLOD) but resolutely ignores his feelings (seeing them as inappropriate and deeming them to be unreciprocated) in favour of being there as her CO and a team-mate to help her through the whole Jolinar thing, and I think Sam is so focused on getting over Jolinar and proving herself again to him and others, that's she's completely unknowing to falling more and more for Jack. Yet everything kind of builds and comes together in Out of Mind/Into the Fire where both their feelings surface momentarily.
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                      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                      From a production perspective, I read somewhere along time ago that S2 was meant to set-up a Sam-Martouf relationship to effectively move away from the Jack-Sam chemistry that had been shown in S1. Only then TPTB saw the S2 finale with Jack glancing at Sam's naked back and as they felt that had more chemistry than Sam/Martouf, decided to go the route of setting up an actual love story between Sam and Jack.

                      I think Jack and Sam were always meant to have chemistry; AT was very obviously told to stand by RDA in her audition to see how the two of them looked together and a lot of S1 showcases that the two are attracted to each other but its equally made clear that there are regs and they can't be together unless in an alternate reality or under an alien influence.

                      From a character perspective (rather than TPTB decision making!) I can see in S2 both characters focusing on their work relationship. I do think Jack had realised that he had come to care about Sam more than he should (and had done since ITLOD) but resolutely ignores his feelings (seeing them as inappropriate and deeming them to be unreciprocated) in favour of being there as her CO and a team-mate to help her through the whole Jolinar thing, and I think Sam is so focused on getting over Jolinar and proving herself again to him and others, that's she's completely unknowing to falling more and more for Jack. Yet everything kind of builds and comes together in Out of Mind/Into the Fire where both their feelings surface momentarily.
                      I have no doubt TPTB really liked the chemistry between the two. Like you mention, they were thinking of going another way with the characters - but from a tv perspective, it always helps to have some level of chemistry between two opposite sex characters. I don't think they were thinking of such an involved story line for S/J at the beginning (and your production note supports that) but it did end up being that way

                      Good for us shippers.

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                        Originally posted by majorsal View Post
                        all this amanda and rick started it is silly, only in that *they*, the ptb, 'started' it, but it was prob amanda and rick that enhanced it to such a degree that the ptb decided to up the ante by writing it in stronger and more.
                        I never quite bought that excuse, either, although that particular PTB may have thought it to be true. That's one thing I set out to look at when I started this rewatch, and I was truly amazed by how much scripted ship was in S1- too much, IMHO. (Yes, there can be too much ship). And that's why I did the seating arrangement statistic- which BTW, showed that they were deliberately framed together, it wasn't random chance by a long shot. Less than a 5% chance that it was random, actually.
                        I think that's a pretty good objective measurement of their intentions.
                        It was not just chemistry that, somewhere along the line, planted the idea of the S/J ship in their creative little heads. It was there all along.

                        Originally posted by dipsofjazz View Post
                        Spirits
                        To me, Sam is now spouting much of Jack's dialogue, which didn't feel right.
                        Now, I thought this, too. But I guess I thought that she was now in command, and was doing her version of "WWJD".

                        In other words there's an in-universe reason for her to act like Jack, unlike, say in Season 9 where (some fans say- I wouldn't know) Jack's traits were divided up amongst the other characters.

                        Maybe she still has a little hero-worship going on, too?

                        Originally posted by Oma-1 View Post
                        It's a very valid point you make VSS. Jack's sure of Sam and her ability to command this mission. If anything by Zero Hour, he's even more sure of her ability. The mitigating factor imo, is the difference of his feelings for her in S2 and S8.

                        I think at this point, they are both under no illusion that they each find the another attractive, but it's been put aside for the sake of SG-1. I think TBFTGOG had a lot to do with that putting aside. They each saw the potential for their relationship, but realised that with the regs, and the war with the Goa'uld, that was never going to happen.

                        I also think they're both unaware the other feels the same way. Instead they're carrying on building that very successful working relationship, and becoming....I wouldn't say friends because they are both too aware of the COC, but certainly friendly colleagues

                        So there is no personal relationship, it's all about work, and in that, Jack can be very openly proud and supportive of his Captain. His other feelings for her he's buried very deep, and if they do surface, he covers them up as swiftly as possible.

                        By S8, well, Jack knows full well he's completely in love with Sam, she's the other half of him, and he absolutely can't stand the thought of losing her out in the field. Especially since he's not there anymore to watch her back.

                        Like you said in The Tok'ra discussion, there's a lot less focus on the personal relationship between Sam and Jack. I think it was deliberate choice tptb made to cool it down a little, because of the regs and the war, plus a lot of S2 is about Sam and her character development; they adddressed all those issues we felt were missing from S1. They didn't want her being seen as Jack's girl, but wanted her to be independent, strong, and see her overcoming some of her personal demons.

                        Man, it feels good to exercise that brain cell with some S/J discussion! Just need to do it a little more to be more coherent instead of rambling I wish I had more time to hang out in here!!! *hugs shippers*
                        Well, please come and ramble some more because I agree with everything you've written here- but I kind of think it was pretty subconscious. I'm not sure they thought about anything, considering that, as you say, it was truly out of the question.
                        But I really like the way you put this. I don't really think Jack was ever all that okay with her being in the field, despite what he said in Affinity.
                        Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                        I
                        It always bemused me that this was Jack who talked the aliens down when Daniel is standing right there. It would have been more in character for him to have turned to Daniel more than he did. I put this down to 'must make the lead the hero' mentality that also had Mitchell talking the commander into letting them go in Bad Guys instead of Daniel.
                        Yes was very OOC for Jack, I thought. In fact, he seemed to really vacillate throughout the episode with his thinking regarding what should be done so it seemed odd to me that he'd step forward in the end anyway. But, as you point out, this would have been a classic Daniel moment and it really made no sense, especially since earlier in the ep Jack did ask Daniel to step forward and discuss things with Tonane.
                        I was always sorry more wasn't focused on Hammond's own struggle to reconcile what they were doing.
                        Several people in the comments section for this episode thought he was quite out of character, so perhaps showing more of a struggle would have reconciled things better in that regard, too.
                        From a production perspective, I read somewhere along time ago that S2 was meant to set-up a Sam-Martouf relationship to effectively move away from the Jack-Sam chemistry that had been shown in S1. Only then TPTB saw the S2 finale with Jack glancing at Sam's naked back and as they felt that had more chemistry than Sam/Martouf, decided to go the route of setting up an actual love story between Sam and Jack
                        Well, if they felt that they had to develop a love interest for Sam (I don't think they could resist, honestly ) this makes sense. Do you happen to remember what the fan buzz was with that? Because I kind of like Martouf and I understand the reasons why they couldn't move forward on the J/S thing but there is the "screw the regs" contingent out there who might not have cared about that. Perhaps the S/J story was just more popular?
                        And then, of course, they did it in a much more heavy-handed and much less interesting and believable way with Pete later on.
                        I think Jack and Sam were always meant to have chemistry; AT was very obviously told to stand by RDA in her audition to see how the two of them looked together and a lot of S1 showcases that the two are attracted to each other but its equally made clear that there are regs and they can't be together unless in an alternate reality or under an alien influence.
                        I think TPTB's enthusiasm caused them to go a little overboard with the ship in season 1 and the writers themselves finally realized they couldn't move the S/J relationship forward due to the very things you mention. How are they going to drag it out for that many seasons otherwise? Oma's point about ItLoD comes to mind, and then the whole thing with Martouf as you mentioned. It could really have been an interesting story arc (heck of a lot more interesting than Pete!) but they never went that far with it, IMHO.

                        I think you point out very well where JM perhaps got the idea for that near-kiss in RE, and the excuse he gave for it afterward. The writers maybe did envision some kind of unresolved romance with Martouf, didn't they? But most of the audience didn't seem to see it because they never really developed it.
                        Last edited by VSS; June 20, 2009, 04:35 PM.

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                          Originally posted by VSS View Post

                          <lots of snippage>

                          Well, if they felt that they had to develop a love interest for Sam (I don't think they could resist, honestly ) this makes sense. Do you happen to remember what the fan buzz was with that? Because I kind of like Martouf and I understand the reasons why they couldn't move forward on the J/S thing but there is the "screw the regs" contingent out there who might not have cared about that. Perhaps the S/J story was just more popular?
                          And then, of course, they did it in a much more heavy-handed and much less interesting and believable way with Pete later on.

                          I think TPTB's enthusiasm caused them to go a little overboard with the ship in season 1 and the writers themselves finally realized they couldn't move the S/J relationship forward due to the very things you mention. How are they going to drag it out for that many seasons otherwise? Oma's point about ItLoD comes to mind, and then the whole thing with Martouf as you mentioned. It could really have been an interesting story arc (heck of a lot more interesting than Pete!) but they never went that far with it, IMHO.

                          I think you point out very well where JM perhaps got the idea for that near-kiss in RE, and the excuse he gave for it afterward. The writers maybe did envision some kind of unresolved romance with Martouf, didn't they? But most of the audience didn't seem to see it because they never really developed it.
                          I wasn't really in the online fandom in S1/S2, just happily pottering about at home in my own little Stargate fandom!

                          I do remember thinking personally when I read interviews and Martouf was introduced that I could understand why to some degree as (a) Sam had no real personal link to the war so the whole Jolinar arc with her father and with Martouf was meant to address that, and (b) if there was to be a romantic sub-plot Daniel was with Sha're, Teal'c was with Drey'auc, RDA allegedly didn't want Jack being Kirk-esque although S1 had covered his marriage breakdown nor did they want to tie the lead hero into a long term ongoing romance arc so Sam was the only viable candidate.

                          I remember personally feeling disappointed that they were going to go with an 'other' rather than just continuing to hint at Sam/Jack but understanding because it had been made clear in S1 that while there was chemistry, it couldn't go anywhere because of the regs.

                          I wasn't keen on Martouf because I always felt the whole thing was too icky. That his feelings had nothing to do with Sam and everything to do with Jolinar. But I agree that S2 was probably the set-up of a storyline similar to the one relayed by Martouf to Sam in RE. On that subject, I thought the almost kiss was not actually scripted but was a directional decision? JM meant for Martouf's story of his and Sam's failed relationship to be bring resolution to that particular ship - full stop. The almost kiss was something PDL popped in apparently not understanding that JM had written the whole thing as a nod to Sam/Jack? But I could be wrong...I usually am
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                            Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                            I wasn't keen on Martouf because I always felt the whole thing was too icky. That his feelings had nothing to do with Sam and everything to do with Jolinar. But I agree that S2 was probably the set-up of a storyline similar to the one relayed by Martouf to Sam in RE. On that subject, I thought the almost kiss was not actually scripted but was a directional decision? JM meant for Martouf's story of his and Sam's failed relationship to be bring resolution to that particular ship - full stop. The almost kiss was something PDL popped in apparently not understanding that JM had written the whole thing as a nod to Sam/Jack? But I could be wrong...I usually am
                            I totally agree with the bolded parts Rachel! I'm not sure about who's decision it was although what you say sounds familiar.. I might check the commentary for the episode and see who did it...
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                              Originally posted by Aveo_amacus View Post
                              I totally agree with the bolded parts Rachel! I'm not sure about who's decision it was although what you say sounds familiar.. I might check the commentary for the episode and see who did it...
                              I'd like to see what you find.

                              I agree that that Martouf was a little icky, too, Rachel. I just wish they'd have done more with that story arc because the concept of Sam retaining feelings that aren't hers is just fascinating. It's like the reverse of a split personality- more of an overlapping personality.

                              Here's what I wrote a few pages back:
                              Although I like the scene with Martouf and Sam out on the dunes, it was an extremely manipulative thing for him to do, and in a lot of ways he reminds me of Pete- overwhelming her with these romantic overtures when she’s feeling vulnerable, just to get what he wants without taking into account how she feels about things. It might not be intentional, but it happens nonetheless, and it seems self-centered to me. Also, I wonder if this interrupted scene has some kind of parallel or resolution in the scene from the Ripple Effect. Isn’t that what JM indicated that particular near-kiss was all about? Something concerning unresolved issues?
                              After our discussion here, I'm starting to think both Pete and Martouf were intended to throw up obstacles for Jack and Sam (as if the regs aren't enough). One happened during the time the series ran on Showtime and ended with D & C, the other on Scifi, ending with Threads. (In fact, at my most cynical, I've referred to Threads as D&C Part 2.) And now we're into the third cycle of not showing any obvious resolution to this relationship. I wonder how much longer they can drag this out? It definitely is a repeating theme!

                              Well, at least we're not dealing with another doomed Sam/other relationship in the mean time.
                              Last edited by VSS; June 21, 2009, 06:42 AM.

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                                Originally posted by VSS View Post
                                I'd like to see what you find.

                                I agree that that Martouf was a little icky, too, Rachel. I just wish they'd have done more with that story arc because the concept of Sam retaining feelings that aren't hers is just fascinating. It's like the reverse of a split personality- more of an overlapping personality.

                                Here's what I wrote a few pages back:


                                After our discussion here, I'm starting to think both Pete and Martouf were intended to throw up obstacles for Jack and Sam (as if the regs aren't enough). One happened during the time the series ran on Showtime and ended with D & C, the other on Scifi, ending with Threads. (In fact, at my most cynical, I've referred to Threads as D&C Part 2.) And now we're into the third cycle of not showing any obvious resolution to this relationship. I wonder how much longer they can drag this out? It definitely is a repeating theme!

                                Well, at least we're not dealing with another doomed Sam/other relationship in the mean time.
                                I agree that it would have been fascinating to have explored it more. I think they did try to cover it in Jolinar's Memories/TDYK and again in Summit/Last Stand with Lantash.

                                I always equate it as being very similar to Narim's emotional recorder device. A sense of feeling feelings which aren't your own but in feeling them you can't distinguish that properly. I think time and knowing the difference through using the memory device in JM/TDYK helped Sam to distinguish between Jolinar's and her own.

                                I definitely think Pete was meant to be an obstacle but I tend to think Martouf was simply meant to be a distinct storyline originally - and then having created it, and deciding to go in another direction to fully explore Sam/Jack he became an obstacle. Laira, on the other hand, was definitely meant to be an obstacle!

                                I've always felt the ship had a pattern:

                                S1: Hints
                                S2: Hints
                                S3: Big hints!
                                S4: Ship!
                                S5: Hints
                                S6: Hints
                                S7: Big hints!
                                S8: Ship!
                                S9: Hints
                                S10/AoT: Hints
                                Continuum: Big hints!
                                So, M3: Ship????
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