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    Okaay, folks, ok, you have convinced me

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      Sorry I'm late with this, again, no internet access.

      The Tok’ra Part 2
      Favorite Quote: “That’s great, Dad. You can spend all day cracking yourself up.”
      Favorite Scene: When the spy is eaten up by the tunnel collapse

      Thanks, jasminago!


      Is it just me or is there less ship in season 2? And if there is less, why would that be? The writers thinking they moved too fast in season 1, or are the characters just getting more used to one another and getting a grip on that initial physical attraction? I think it’s a little of both. For one thing, I hardly have any briefing room scenes to count, but so far they’ve actually tended to sit apart, though it seems to me that the framing in other settings is continuing.

      This story opens with the SG1&3 being held captive by the Tok’ra. I don’t think I mentioned last time that I really like the Tok’ra leader, Garshaw. I wish we’d have seen her more often. Also, I think AT does a really great job in this episode. As she departs after telling them once again they can’t leave, Jack turns his head to look at Sam sitting over in the corner all by himself. At first, I thought it was a “See what you’ve gotten us into,” look but that just isn’t his style. I think he’s trying to see how she’s doing without being overly intrusive. And he does it again more obviously just a few seconds later after Sam’s discussion with Makepeace.

      Daniel doesn’t get to do much in this episode, though I notice he still has the James Spader thing going. He tries to reason with the tok’ra, but I think he doesn’t understand how set in one’s ways one gets after a few hundred years.

      Sam comes up with the idea of Jacob becoming a host, and Garshaw allows two people to go back and retrieve him- of course the other one is Jack, which struck me as unusual because I thought he’d want to stay back to watch out for the remaining team members. But I think he wants to look out for Sam as well as perhaps present his assessment of the situation at hand. Does he not trust her to do that, thinking she’s too influenced by Martouf and her desire for her father to live? At any rate, Jacob returns with Jack and Sam back to the tok’ra hiding place, where they find it’s under attack.

      There Jacob meets Selmak and takes him as a host, a scene which is probably in my top five least favorite. Why do Garshaw and Jack allow Martouf and Sam to stay behind? For both of them, the risk of losing their people far outweighs the benefits of saving someone who might die anyway. I think they just whould have tried to take Jacob along.

      Of course, we have a happy ending and Jacob goes to live with the tok’ra, and it seems his relationship with Sam is also on the mend.

      Implications for Sam and Jack: I think that it's important that Sam fixed her relationship with Jacob because a dysfunctional relationship in one area might lead to problems with other close personal relationships as well. Perhaps that's why there were problems with Jonas- i think it'd be very difficult to go through life being close with no one, and that might have led her to overlook his flaws. However, there still seem to be persistent problems and insecurities with Sam, though, as we find out in Grace. Almost as if she doesn't trust her own judgement- but her dad twice tells her what she needs to do- once in Grace, and again in Threads. So having him, the career military man, tell her how important it is to have someone has to have an enormous impact on her. I wonder if Jacob had died, especially with their relationship in such a shambles, would Jack and Sam have gotten together?

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        Originally posted by VSS View Post
        Implications for Sam and Jack: I think that it's important that Sam fixed her relationship with Jacob because a dysfunctional relationship in one area might lead to problems with other close personal relationships as well. Perhaps that's why there were problems with Jonas- i think it'd be very difficult to go through life being close with no one, and that might have led her to overlook his flaws. However, there still seem to be persistent problems and insecurities with Sam, though, as we find out in Grace. Almost as if she doesn't trust her own judgement- but her dad twice tells her what she needs to do- once in Grace, and again in Threads. So having him, the career military man, tell her how important it is to have someone has to have an enormous impact on her. I wonder if Jacob had died, especially with their relationship in such a shambles, would Jack and Sam have gotten together?
        I was wondering the same thing myself the other day. I think Jacob's death confronted Sam with her own mortality. I'm not sure Jacob would have stopped the wedding - he didn't say anything about her being happy until he was on her death bed (if I'm recalling correctly), as though he was *trying* to get her to face her own mortality. "You can still have everything you want." - take the risk, it's worth it. Also, I think that off-screen, Jack's reaction to Sam hurting is something Kerry witnessed which led her to see that Jack had his heart elsewhere, someplace she couldn't reach.

        They were both dancing around each other, each had things preventing the other one from connecting with them (Jack = Kerry, Sam = Pete) and Jacob's death tore that down in a lot of ways. There are certainly other ways the writers could have brought them together, but I think it would still have needed to be a very emotional event that caused them both to realize that time is short and they deserve to be happy.

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          Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
          I was wondering the same thing myself the other day. I think Jacob's death confronted Sam with her own mortality. I'm not sure Jacob would have stopped the wedding - he didn't say anything about her being happy until he was on her death bed (if I'm recalling correctly), as though he was *trying* to get her to face her own mortality. "You can still have everything you want." - take the risk, it's worth it. Also, I think that off-screen, Jack's reaction to Sam hurting is something Kerry witnessed which led her to see that Jack had his heart elsewhere, someplace she couldn't reach.

          They were both dancing around each other, each had things preventing the other one from connecting with them (Jack = Kerry, Sam = Pete) and Jacob's death tore that down in a lot of ways. There are certainly other ways the writers could have brought them together, but I think it would still have needed to be a very emotional event that caused them both to realize that time is short and they deserve to be happy.
          I think it would have happened, I mean, Sam had already gone to Jack's house to confront him before Jacob collapsed. I think Jacob may have stepped in anyway, he wanted Sam to be happy and he could clearly see she wasn't, I think if Sam hadn't done anythingand finished her talk with Jack Jacob may have said *something*
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            Originally posted by Aveo_amacus View Post
            I think it would have happened, I mean, Sam had already gone to Jack's house to confront him before Jacob collapsed. I think Jacob may have stepped in anyway, he wanted Sam to be happy and he could clearly see she wasn't, I think if Sam hadn't done anythingand finished her talk with Jack Jacob may have said *something*
            I agree. While Jacob's death had a huge impact on Sam's life, I really don't think him not dying would have kept Sam and Jack from getting together. As you say, Sam already had big doubts about the whole Pete relationship, and just the fact that she was going to Jack with her doubts would have kept her thinking along those lines even after Kerry appeared on the scene. I really don't believe Sam would have gone ahead and married Pete, even if she thought Jack had moved on with Kerry. I don't think she would have settled for "second best" (she, herself, would likely have stepped back and finally done some serious thinking about the issue, realizing she ws getting married for the wrong reasons, and then had a long talk with Pete and either postponed or called off the wedding entirely). And, even if the call about Jacob had not happened, Kerry could see there was "something" between Jack and Sam and was smart enough to know she just might not want to get caught in the middle of that. After all, she and Jack had only been together for about a month, they weren't "serious" at that point, and since she's the one that pointed out to Jack he had issues, I think she still might have and then stepped out of that relationship, and pushed him to "go for it". We don't know how long (really) she had been working at the SGC, but I'm quite sure she had heard some of the rumors about Jack and Sam, and was putting two and two together about them.

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              Originally posted by hedwig View Post
              I agree. While Jacob's death had a huge impact on Sam's life, I really don't think him not dying would have kept Sam and Jack from getting together. As you say, Sam already had big doubts about the whole Pete relationship, and just the fact that she was going to Jack with her doubts would have kept her thinking along those lines even after Kerry appeared on the scene. I really don't believe Sam would have gone ahead and married Pete, even if she thought Jack had moved on with Kerry. I don't think she would have settled for "second best" (she, herself, would likely have stepped back and finally done some serious thinking about the issue, realizing she ws getting married for the wrong reasons, and then had a long talk with Pete and either postponed or called off the wedding entirely). And, even if the call about Jacob had not happened, Kerry could see there was "something" between Jack and Sam and was smart enough to know she just might not want to get caught in the middle of that. After all, she and Jack had only been together for about a month, they weren't "serious" at that point, and since she's the one that pointed out to Jack he had issues, I think she still might have and then stepped out of that relationship, and pushed him to "go for it". We don't know how long (really) she had been working at the SGC, but I'm quite sure she had heard some of the rumors about Jack and Sam, and was putting two and two together about them.
              I've always been curious what happened that caused Kerry to break up with Jack because I agree that it wasn't just the phone call to Sam that caused her to realize something else was going on.

              I think I can agree that the wedding wouldn't have happened... but maybe I'll revise my thoughts and say that it probably would have taken longer for the two of them to get together if Jacob hadn't died. Sam was having serious doubts and hopefully she would have been smart enough to not force herself down the aisle. I mean, she was smart enough to break up with Jonas.

              So revision thoughts: Yeah they would've gotten together, but maybe not as quickly.

              although...

              sg-3 thoughts
              Spoiler:
              If they're just getting together in the movie, I'll scream And this conversation will be moot point...

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                Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                I've always been curious what happened that caused Kerry to break up with Jack because I agree that it wasn't just the phone call to Sam that caused her to realize something else was going on.

                I think I can agree that the wedding wouldn't have happened... but maybe I'll revise my thoughts and say that it probably would have taken longer for the two of them to get together if Jacob hadn't died. Sam was having serious doubts and hopefully she would have been smart enough to not force herself down the aisle. I mean, she was smart enough to break up with Jonas.

                So revision thoughts: Yeah they would've gotten together, but maybe not as quickly.

                although...

                sg-3 thoughts
                Spoiler:
                If they're just getting together in the movie, I'll scream And this conversation will be moot point...
                There is just no way. There were way too many shippy hints and tidbits in S9 and 10 and also on Atlantis.
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                  Originally posted by Aveo_amacus View Post
                  I think it would have happened, I mean, Sam had already gone to Jack's house to confront him before Jacob collapsed. I think Jacob may have stepped in anyway, he wanted Sam to be happy and he could clearly see she wasn't, I think if Sam hadn't done anythingand finished her talk with Jack Jacob may have said *something*
                  Well, now that's a very good point.

                  I think a little depends on when Jacob died (or didn't). If he did die here at the time of The Tok'ra then would Sam have imagined him in Grace? I don't think so- they'd never have reconciled and she wouldn't have turned to him for advice even in her hallucinations.

                  But it was that hallucination that ultimately ended up causing her to quit pining for Jack and try to move on. So if Jacob had died the whole scene at Jack's house would have never happened, because there'd have been no Pete. Most likely, Sam and Jack would have simply gotten together when he was promoted to Washington and we'd all have been spared the whole doomed Pete situation.

                  You could say that Jacob was indirectly the cause of her problems with Jack- not the solution. Frankly, he (or rather, Sam's hallucination of him) caused a lot of the problem, and in Threads he helps straighten it out.

                  I agree that his death during Threads might have sped things up a little, but had he lived, Sam would either have come around on her own or he'd simply have talked some sense into her in a more direct way than he did in the briefing room and mess hall scenes.

                  So I guess I'm of the opinion that Jacob ultimately didn't tell her anything she didn't already know, and his death either earlier or later made for a lot of angst, but overall no long-term impact on S/J.

                  Originally posted by gater62 View Post
                  There is just no way. There were way too many shippy hints and tidbits in S9 and 10 and also on Atlantis.
                  I think you're right. If not, not only will I dislike that from a shipper's viewpoint, I'd be disappointed about the writing not making any sense, either.
                  Last edited by VSS; June 17, 2009, 09:45 PM.

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                    Originally posted by gater62 View Post
                    There is just no way. There were way too many shippy hints and tidbits in S9 and 10 and also on Atlantis.
                    Originally posted by VSS View Post
                    I think you're right. If not, not only will I dislike that from a shipper's viewpoint, I'd be disappointed about the writing not making any sense, either.
                    exactly. I'm not worried

                    about that, anyway
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                      VSS, good thoughts about Jacob.

                      I think that Jacob put into words exactly (though phrased differently) what she was looking for from Jack. Sam had her doubts but she'd never voiced them. Jacob actually voiced those doubts and Sam realized that she wasn't imagining her own self doubt, others were seeing it, too.
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                        Does anyone know when S/j shipday is ?
                        Or did I miss it this year?
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                          Ship Day is on 28th July
                          There will be a specially dedicated thread for the day, with links to it in both this thread and the appreciation thread
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                            If Jacob had died around the time of The Tok'ra from his cancer, it may well gone either way. It may have freed Sam from any internal expectations or desires of pleasing her father by being a perfect Air Force officer. I do think some of Sam's adherence to the rules for so long is in part because she doesn't want to let down her father and believed he wouldn't have approved of her feelings for Jack. Freed from that by Jacob's death as he wouldn't have been around anymore to approve or disprove of her choices, she may have moved forward with Jack earlier around the time of D&C when it became obvious they had mutual feelings.

                            On the other hand, Sam may well have emotionally hampered by her father's death; unable in her eyes to please him in life, she may have tried even harder in death and even more fiercely rejected her feelings for Jack as being wrong as an Air Force officer. Without Jacob around to state how proud he was of her, and to drop the big hint that he didn't care that it was Jack or whether she was in the Air Force, he just wanted her to be happy, she may never have taken the leap, dumped Pete and moved forward with Jack. Indeed, a 'Pete' may have happened much earlier.

                            With 'Grace', I think it's important to remember it was never Jacob who said what he said: it was Sam talking to herself. She wants what her father and mother had but she's acknowledging that she's scared of losing someone and that she needs to make a change (to let go of things preventing her from finding happiness) if she's to truly experience the type of love her parents enjoyed. Her hallucination never explicitly tells her to let go of Jack - and is more likely telling her to let go of her fears of losing someone. If Jacob had been dead at the point of Grace, it's likely Sam would have still had the same conversation, she just may have substituted Mark for Jacob or maybe Hammond for Jacob.

                            As for Threads, I've stated before on the Appreciation thread that I truly think Sam would not have married Pete even if Jacob had lived. For me, Sam had already made her decision when she goes to see Jack in his backyard because that look in her face when she takes in the house Pete buys is 'oh my God, what the hell am I doing?'

                            I think she would have been hurt over Kerry and maybe tempted for a long moment to wonder if she shouldn't go ahead with Pete anyway but I think Sam would have come to the conclusion herself that it wasn't fair to Pete to marry him when she was so clearly in love with Jack even if Jack had moved on and was with someone else. And I think Jacob alive would have equally encouraged her to do what made her happy, that it would be OK if she changed her mind and didn't marry Pete.

                            I also agree that I think after the backyard tableau, Kerry had put two and two together and realised Jack was in love with Sam regardless and had decided to get out before she got too involved with him. So I think both Jack and Sam would have ended up single still. Although it may have taken another 'event' or push to really prompt them into admitting their feelings for each other given no opportunity for Jack to comfort Sam and tell her 'always.'
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                              Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                              Spoiler:
                              If Jacob had died around the time of The Tok'ra from his cancer, it may well gone either way. It may have freed Sam from any internal expectations or desires of pleasing her father by being a perfect Air Force officer. I do think some of Sam's adherence to the rules for so long is in part because she doesn't want to let down her father and believed he wouldn't have approved of her feelings for Jack. Freed from that by Jacob's death as he wouldn't have been around anymore to approve or disprove of her choices, she may have moved forward with Jack earlier around the time of D&C when it became obvious they had mutual feelings.

                              On the other hand, Sam may well have emotionally hampered by her father's death; unable in her eyes to please him in life, she may have tried even harder in death and even more fiercely rejected her feelings for Jack as being wrong as an Air Force officer. Without Jacob around to state how proud he was of her, and to drop the big hint that he didn't care that it was Jack or whether she was in the Air Force, he just wanted her to be happy, she may never have taken the leap, dumped Pete and moved forward with Jack. Indeed, a 'Pete' may have happened much earlier.

                              With 'Grace', I think it's important to remember it was never Jacob who said what he said: it was Sam talking to herself. She wants what her father and mother had but she's acknowledging that she's scared of losing someone and that she needs to make a change (to let go of things preventing her from finding happiness) if she's to truly experience the type of love her parents enjoyed. Her hallucination never explicitly tells her to let go of Jack - and is more likely telling her to let go of her fears of losing someone. If Jacob had been dead at the point of Grace, it's likely Sam would have still had the same conversation, she just may have substituted Mark for Jacob or maybe Hammond for Jacob.

                              As for Threads, I've stated before on the Appreciation thread that I truly think Sam would not have married Pete even if Jacob had lived. For me, Sam had already made her decision when she goes to see Jack in his backyard because that look in her face when she takes in the house Pete buys is 'oh my God, what the hell am I doing?'
                              sp for space, Completely agree with this Rachel. Especially the bolded last part

                              I think she would have been hurt over Kerry and maybe tempted for a long moment to wonder if she shouldn't go ahead with Pete anyway but I think Sam would have come to the conclusion herself that it wasn't fair to Pete to marry him when she was so clearly in love with Jack even if Jack had moved on and was with someone else. And I think Jacob alive would have equally encouraged her to do what made her happy, that it would be OK if she changed her mind and didn't marry Pete.
                              I also agree with this, Jacob knows this is his last chance to make sure his little girl is happy, he knows he's not going to be around to ask her again so he drops hints all day before really trying to tell her in the infirmary. However, the exact timing and location would be the only thing that could change if Jacob was dying. He meets Pete and we can all - including Sam, at least to an extent - see how much he doesn't approve, I firmly agree that even if he wasn't dying he'd do all in his power to make sure she's happy and not just settling.

                              I also agree that I think after the backyard tableau, Kerry had put two and two together and realised Jack was in love with Sam regardless and had decided to get out before she got too involved with him. So I think both Jack and Sam would have ended up single still. Although it may have taken another 'event' or push to really prompt them into admitting their feelings for each other given no opportunity for Jack to comfort Sam and tell her 'always.'
                              I agree with the Kerry section, although it would have been interesting how Sam would have gotten out of it without her phone ringing the way it did.
                              You make a good point here on the timing of 'Always', I can see this possibly changing if Jacob didn't die. But if Kerry is pushing Jack and Sam's broken up with Pete I can't see it taking long - especially if Jacob still has his oar in.
                              Last edited by Aveo_amacus; June 19, 2009, 08:42 AM.
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                                Nice discussion about Jacob!
                                OT excuses
                                Spoiler:
                                I wish I could contribute something but now not only do I not have regular internet access, I've been blasted with prednisone which is actually kind of fun as long as I don't have to think or sleep.

                                I should be able to get Spirits done but if anyone out there cares to do a little writeup on Touchstone over the weekend, PM me. Otherwise, we'll just go ahead with The Fifth Man on Monday because I'm not doing that one. Luckily.
                                Last edited by VSS; June 19, 2009, 12:14 PM.

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