Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Coela Bellatore]

Also, Toomi- love the rancher and bull comment. I get the feeling we live really close to each other. LOL! I can so see that!

I don't know about that. Ranchers look at bulls to see if they are healthy and will produce good steaks for someone else (I worked at a cattle ranch one summer). It would be more akin to a pimp looking at his whore. Pirus is looking at Sam like a fine connoisseur looks at an expensive wine he found, a rare one that is going into his private collection, and he will enjoy it very much at a later date.

[VSS]

I don't know about that. Ranchers look at bulls to see if they are healthy and will produce good steaks for someone else (I worked at a cattle ranch one summer). It would be more akin to a pimp looking at his whore. Pirus is looking at Sam like a fine connoisseur looks at an expensive wine he found, a rare one that is going into his private collection, and he will enjoy it very much at a later date.

Well, in that case Jack's evidently decided that particular varietal is private reserve.

[Aveo_amacus]

So this is kind of Daniel's Argosian Cake episode, Shyla drugs Daniel into doing what she wants;

I never noticed that before, but it did affect him right away- I noticed that when he comes to see SG-1 for the first time he gives this little smile about the "royal robes"- he kind of likes them. In normal circumstances he'd have rolled his eyes at them as being a total nuisance. IS the effect of a sarcophagus somewhat cumulative- that is, he's more vulnerable because he's been in one before?

I think it is supposed to be cumulative, maybe because he's been in them before and because he wasn't actually dead it affected him more than before

Agreed. Big mistake there. It's not like it magically casts a spell and drags people in there- they know enough to stay out of it, and yet still study it. Or use it in an emergency.

I think that's exactly why the writers did it that way, the sarcophagus is an easy way to heal someone so I'm guessing they're trying to get rid of this particular deus ex machina. Another reason for "the Tok'ra don't use them"

There's something about this episode that makes me go, "Hmmm". I think her reaction there is pretty significant, because she makes no attempt to deny it. He's clearly hit a nerve and he did it deliberately. I think that's the first hint that we get about Sam and her attachment difficulties- which is one of her themes throughout the series, too, and has a major impact on the ship, of course, even though it's just the tip of the iceberg here.

I find it interesting that when Sam reminds him that he has a wife he has this rant about waiting for her. It's been just over a year - Sam and Jack will wait years to be together. I think in some ways it does show us that although Sam may have some attachment difficulties, if Daniel thinks she's never really been in love despite her engagement, but she does think that a marriage should be long term (probably hence the broken engagement), it's an interesting foreshadowing of what Sam would do to get Jack back and how long and hard she'd look for him (well it is for me!).

Also, I think Jack's reaction to Pirus in the first minutes of the episode is interesting- or maybe it's the way they choose to highlight Jack's reaction. But that little bit of a scene has always made a big impact on me and I'm not sure why. Maybe because it's so much more obvious than it's been in the past.

I think it is important, thinking of parallels in the choice of shots with the scene in The First Commandment, they deliberately cut to Jack rather than anyone else.


On a slightly unrelated note, how many times do you think the crew played tricks on MS locking him in the sarcophagus??

[josiane]

This scene really stands out in my mind. Pirus is attracted to her- the way he lets go of her head and then runs his hand through her hair shows that. And the camera pans to Jack (and only Jack) twice- once when Pirus grabs her hair and pulls her back the first time and then when he runs his hand through her hair. I think that (like in Prisoners) he has a pretty clear idea of what might be going through this guy's head, and he doesn't like it. So, again, it's that protective streak that seems to have surfaced ever since ItLoD. And if you watch really closely when they're escaping, he puts his hand on her back and pushes her ahead of him. Not sure if that's a gratuitous touching moment, but he doesn't need to do that- there's only one way out and she's moving as fast as she can.

Absolutely. When I watch this episode I get that same protective vibe from Jack towards Sam that we see in Prisoners, and I think it is because we're so soon after ItLOD. It's this kind of subtle interaction that I love as the series goes on, because they way they behave towards each other does change depending on what's happened and happening. And another example of how organic the ship is. He loses it again, gradually, as time goes on and he realises she's dealing with the experience and moving on, but then it comes back in full force when they're in a situation that brings it to the forefront - when they meet the Tok'ra, whenever Martouf's around (part of which I think is jealousy, but I think it's as much protectiveness of her feelings as of his), during Jolinar's Memories/TDYK, and even in the way he looks at her at the end of Seth after she uses the hand device.

I never noticed that before, but it did affect him right away- I noticed that when he comes to see SG-1 for the first time he gives this little smile about the "royal robes"- he kind of likes them. In normal circumstances he'd have rolled his eyes at them as being a total nuisance. IS the effect of a sarcophagus somewhat cumulative- that is, he's more vulnerable because he's been in one before?
This is a key moment, I think. The sarcophagus seems to bring out the worst in people, but it's characteristics they already have. He does feel belittled by Jack, because he is. I wonder if Jack regrets the way he's treated Daniel- but I kind of doubt it.
Oh, definitely. This is one of Daniel's recurring themes- his basic lack of self-confidence. Even in Continuum AU Daniel can't even believe that someone else (Daniel) would believe in him! So when he gets a chance at power and respect, he goes for it. There must be deficiencies that the others have that they try to compensate for when the opportunity comes along- for Jack, I think it's peace and quiet (100 Days, Moebius), for Sam and Teal'c I'm not so sure.

Exactly - I'm thinking Absolute Power here too. The whole reason that could happen is because Daniel does have this tendency within him. I think you're right that it's linked to his lack of self-confidence, and is an overcompensation for that. It could also be linked to as you say his looking at the bigger picture and forgetting the individuals that make it up - he's always all about the culture and humanity in general.

As for Sam and Teal'c's deficiencies, well for Sam I think it's what Daniel makes reference to - her not knowing what love is. It goes back to the Sam as soldier/scientist/woman thing, and I think she not only views the latter as a potential weakness but also as an area where she's not very good, and for someone who is so brilliant and accomplished in the other areas of her life/personality, that makes it a weakness in herself again. And I think her relationship with Pete is the overcompensation there for this - remember that it happens right after Grace where she's been confronted with it.

To me, this is like the reference to prison that Jack made in the last episode- a vague reference to his dark and shadowy past. It's almost like he led some kind of double life- happy family man on the one hand and black ops, drug-addicted, POW on the other. That scene with Daniel shows such sensitivity I wonder why Jack isn't stark raving mad by now? I don't really know how a person can be like that and do all the things he's done. But, it's a great scene with Daniel and Jack, for sure.

I agree, I think that the writers felt the need to pull out bad Jack from time to time to stop us getting complacent with Jack the sarcastic joker - to remind us that he does have some really unpleasant things in his past. But it is a big part of his character, that he has this at his core (and overcompensates for it with his desire for peace and quiet and the simple life).

There's something about this episode that makes me go, "Hmmm". I think her reaction there is pretty significant, because she makes no attempt to deny it. He's clearly hit a nerve and he did it deliberately. I think that's the first hint that we get about Sam and her attachment difficulties- which is one of her themes throughout the series, too, and has a major impact on the ship, of course, even though it's just the tip of the iceberg here.

*nods* Exactly

I think that's exactly why the writers did it that way, the sarcophagus is an easy way to heal someone so I'm guessing they're trying to get rid of this particular deus ex machina. Another reason for "the Tok'ra don't use them"

Agreed You've always got to write in the flaw to anything too miraculous

I find it interesting that when Sam reminds him that he has a wife he has this rant about waiting for her. It's been just over a year - Sam and Jack will wait years to be together. I think in some ways it does show us that although Sam may have some attachment difficulties, if Daniel thinks she's never really been in love despite her engagement, but she does think that a marriage should be long term (probably hence the broken engagement), it's an interesting foreshadowing of what Sam would do to get Jack back and how long and hard she'd look for him (well it is for me!).

I hadn't thought of this before, but I think you're exactly right with this

I think it is important, thinking of parallels in the choice of shots with the scene in The First Commandment, they deliberately cut to Jack rather than anyone else.

The choice of cut-away shots is always a big giveaway I think - both the cutaways when one or the other is in jeopardy, but also the more light-hearted ones - I'm thinking Sam's hidden smiles to Jack's jokes which happens over and over. By cutting away to the other's reaction they set up the pairing subconsciously in the minds of the viewers - we learn that when something happens to Sam we need to take note of Jack's reaction and vice versa. Maybe someone should be keeping track of this too, but I'm certain it happens way more with the two of them than it does with Daniel and Teal'c too.

[Coela Bellatore]

Well, in that case Jack's evidently decided that particular varietal is private reserve.

Don't you just love euphemisms.

[VSS]

So this is kind of Daniel's Argosian Cake episode, Shyla drugs Daniel into doing what she wants;

That's a nice parallel.

I think that's exactly why the writers did it that way, the sarcophagus is an easy way to heal someone so I'm guessing they're trying to get rid of this particular deus ex machina. Another reason for "the Tok'ra don't use them"

Yeah, but this is a real deus ex machina. Also, scifi is full of things like that- inertial dampeners and subspace are two biggies they made up IMHO. But I see your point- this strikes closer to the personal, because the ultimate threat is dying.

I find it interesting that when Sam reminds him that he has a wife he has this rant about waiting for her. It's been just over a year - Sam and Jack will wait years to be together.

I totally forgot about this. Yes, this is an important point. How could I have forgotten this?

As for Sam and Teal'c's deficiencies, well for Sam I think it's what Daniel makes reference to - her not knowing what love is. It goes back to the Sam as soldier/scientist/woman thing, and I think she not only views the latter as a potential weakness but also as an area where she's not very good, and for someone who is so brilliant and accomplished in the other areas of her life/personality, that makes it a weakness in herself again. And I think her relationship with Pete is the overcompensation there for this - remember that it happens right after Grace where she's been confronted with it.

That's kind of what I was thinking but I couldn't explain it since I'm as lame as Sam was regarding romance!

I agree, I think that the writers felt the need to pull out bad Jack from time to time to stop us getting complacent with Jack the sarcastic joker - to remind us that he does have some really unpleasant things in his past. But it is a big part of his character, that he has this at his core (and overcompensates for it with his desire for peace and quiet and the simple life).

That's very perceptive. I think they stopped doing this altogether in the later years. I wonder if they really think Jack is better now or if they just didn't care to bring it up. My personal feeling is they think he's put all that behind him, and the reason why I think that is the comment they made when they were describing the character of Everett Young in SGU

Spoiler:

As being the Jack O'Neill of ten years ago, only with the edges still sharp.

Which is too bad, until you figure maybe Sam has something to do with that.

The choice of cut-away shots is always a big giveaway I think - both the cutaways when one or the other is in jeopardy, but also the more light-hearted ones - I'm thinking Sam's hidden smiles to Jack's jokes which happens over and over. By cutting away to the other's reaction they set up the pairing subconsciously in the minds of the viewers - we learn that when something happens to Sam we need to take note of Jack's reaction and vice versa. Maybe someone should be keeping track of this too, but I'm certain it happens way more with the two of them than it does with Daniel and Teal'c too.

Building on ItLoD I think this is the start of their actual attempts to do exactly that part in bold. Before, they were paying attention to establishing friendship, but now I think they're moving a little further along than that.

I really love doing this rewatch with other people, otherwise I'd have missed all of this stuff.

[josiane]

T
That's very perceptive. I think they stopped doing this altogether in the later years. I wonder if they really think Jack is better now or if they just didn't care to bring it up. My personal feeling is they think he's put all that behind him, and the reason why I think that is the comment they made when they were describing the character of Everett Young in SGU

Spoiler:

As being the Jack O'Neill of ten years ago, only with the edges still sharp.

Which is too bad, until you figure maybe Sam has something to do with that.

I think this is the reason, especially when you consider his few appearances post S8. We pretty much only ever get goofy Jack now, full of wisecracks - yes I think this is because we don't see him so much, but also I think because he is genuinely happy now. Before S8 it was pretty balanced, although there was as you say less of the obvious highlighting of the bad Jack past even before that. I think it's a subtle way of showing that he has got over it - in the same way as they refer to Sam's experience with Jolinar less and less as time goes on.

Building on ItLoD I think this is the start of their actual attempts to do exactly that part in bold. Before, they were paying attention to establishing friendship, but now I think they're moving a little further along than that.

I really love doing this rewatch with other people, otherwise I'd have missed all of this stuff.

Agreed And me too!

[Rac80]

So this is kind of Daniel's Argosian Cake episode, Shyla drugs Daniel into doing what she wants;

I think it is supposed to be cumulative, maybe because he's been in them before and because he wasn't actually dead it affected him more than before

I think that's exactly why the writers did it that way, the sarcophagus is an easy way to heal someone so I'm guessing they're trying to get rid of this particular deus ex machina. Another reason for "the Tok'ra don't use them"

<snipped for relevance>

This was the second time Daniel has been at a woman's mercy...the first was Hathor where she drugged him as well.

I agree that the sarcophagus' effect is cumulative. In Abyss, daniel comments to jack that many more times in the sarcophagus and jack will lose himself.

as for why they didn't keep it, I can see jack not wanting some politician like Kinsey having access to it. He would be savvy enough to know that it could/would be irresistible to someone who was power-hungry. thus despite the good that it can do, he doesn't trust the guys in charge of the stargate program (above hammond in rank/influence) to not misuse it.



ditto on the rewatch, it's nice to discuss it with others who obsess enjoy it as much as I do!

[VSS]

I think this is the reason, especially when you consider his few appearances post S8. We pretty much only ever get goofy Jack now, full of wisecracks - yes I think this is because we don't see him so much, but also I think because he is genuinely happy now.

Well, come to think of it, that's what he said in Continuum. And he almost seemed kind of surprised by that fact. Awww. . makes me want to just give him a big ol' hug. Well, I always want to, but for different reasons.

This was the second time Daniel has been at a woman's mercy...the first was Hathor where she drugged him as well.
ditto on the rewatch, it's nice to discuss it with others who obsess enjoy it as much as I do!

Throughout the series it seems to me that Daniel has to be either drugged, confined or otherwise manipulated to fall for anyone. I think he really meant it when he said Sha're was the only one for him. Which is why Unending must be horribly sad for D/V shippers. I mean, here the man finally has a shot at happiness and it's all taken away.

I think TPTB have a mean streak and I hope we don't get to see it again!

[Rac80]

ahhh but as a D/V shipper I got the enjoyment of realizing it wasn't an AU reality, with AU D/V but our D/V, so I know it WILL happen for them, it truly is inevitable. ( to tptb if they don't see it too )

[Toomi]

I never noticed that before, but it did affect him right away- I noticed that when he comes to see SG-1 for the first time he gives this little smile about the "royal robes"- he kind of likes them. In normal circumstances he'd have rolled his eyes at them as being a total nuisance. IS the effect of a sarcophagus somewhat cumulative- that is, he's more vulnerable because he's been in one before?

By cumulative do you mean adds up over years despite having breaks inbetween? I always thought it affected/changed you while you were using it and when you went through withdrawal it would start over again at the beginning.

This is a key moment, I think. The sarcophagus seems to bring out the worst in people, but it's characteristics they already have. He does feel belittled by Jack, because he is. I wonder if Jack regrets the way he's treated Daniel- but I kind of doubt it.

Other than Jack, does anyone else get the sarcophagus treatment during SG-1? I don't think so but my memory isn't great. In Abyss

Spoiler:

Jack has many many trips into the sarcophagus but doesn't change as dramatically as Daniel does in this episode. Is this because Jack is dead or near dead when he's put in the sarcophagus so it actually has something to heal, and Daniel doesn't have anything wrong with him when he starts re-entering the sarcophagus? I know Jack does change in Abyss, he gives up on life, but that could happen to anyone being tortured...

Also, Toomi- love the rancher and bull comment. I get the feeling we live really close to each other. LOL! I can so see that!

Yup, living in ranch country here.... The wine analogy is good but this was the first one that popped into my mind.

As for Sam and Teal'c's deficiencies, well for Sam I think it's what Daniel makes reference to - her not knowing what love is. It goes back to the Sam as soldier/scientist/woman thing, and I think she not only views the latter as a potential weakness but also as an area where she's not very good, and for someone who is so brilliant and accomplished in the other areas of her life/personality, that makes it a weakness in herself again. And I think her relationship with Pete is the overcompensation there for this - remember that it happens right after Grace where she's been confronted with it.

That's what I thought too. I think that Sam is the kind of person that when a relationship ends, she over analyses it. She wants to know what happened, what she could have done differently etc. It's an analytical mind that helps her be a great scientist but she probably thinks about it too hard and it gets skewed, she probably ends up blaming herself for something that is just one of those things that happens.

The choice of cut-away shots is always a big giveaway I think - both the cutaways when one or the other is in jeopardy, but also the more light-hearted ones - I'm thinking Sam's hidden smiles to Jack's jokes which happens over and over. By cutting away to the other's reaction they set up the pairing subconsciously in the minds of the viewers - we learn that when something happens to Sam we need to take note of Jack's reaction and vice versa. Maybe someone should be keeping track of this too, but I'm certain it happens way more with the two of them than it does with Daniel and Teal'c too.

TPTB definatly did a lot of strategic cuts to hint at the ship throughout the series. Why do they choose to cut to Jack when someone is manhandling Sam? They could have cut to Daniel, someone who is also a good friend, but most of the time they choose not to.

[Aveo_amacus]

Yeah I'd always taken it that if you went into the sarcophagus dead or near death (a la Abyss, Hathor, Original Movie etc) you didn't lose your soul or anything. The thing I'm not sure about is if Daniel had only gone in it once when he went to see SG1 - the scene with 'royal robes' because he does seem altered.

[gater62]

That's a nice parallel.
Yeah, but this is a real deus ex machina. Also, scifi is full of things like that- inertial dampeners and subspace are two biggies they made up IMHO. But I see your point- this strikes closer to the personal, because the ultimate threat is dying.

Are we starting up on inertial dampeners again?

[VSS]

Are we starting up on inertial dampeners again?

Yes. Words cannot express how traumatized I was when I found they can't exist.
*sniff*

[Pol]

Yes. Words cannot express how traumatized I was when I found they can't exist.
*sniff*

Wait...what? I must have missed that discussion. Inertial Dampeners can't exist? Uh oh. Crudbunnies. Did somebody mess up our sci-fi with actual facts?

Darn it.

I guess specific field gravity (ie, being able to walk upright on a starship) is out too. Bummer

Pol goes off to fix a fanfic. *grumble*

How'd I miss that discussion? Bet it was a good one.