Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Kel]

Me too, but where they are, that is a question.

[Aveo_amacus]

GameKeeper

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Spoiler:

Fave Scene: Where Jack toments the fake Hammond. There's a moment where he looks like he might be thinking that it may in fact be reality and he's really blown it but it passes quickly.

The show opens with SG-1 discussing the video of the planet they're heading to. Stepping through the gate they arrive in a garden, which Jack points out that where there's flowers, there's snakes. Daniel points out there's also flowers and sneezes promptly (Daniel's sneeze was pretty thought out!!! It's either an effect after or MS blowing some dust when he 'sneezes'). They head to the metallic dome seen on the recorded footage and come across people attached to some device.

The metallic chords holding the others in the chairs suddenly reach out and pull SG-1 into a chair each, knocking them out.

The next scene shows Jack and Teal'c both holding different weapons, not in SG gear. Jack can't figure out where they are but they both remember what just happened. Kawalsky pulls up with some other folk he knew. The man called John tells Jack that it's Colonel and reminds him he's a Captain. Jack remembers that the Colonel dies on this mission and it happened in East Germany in 1982. Jack thinks he's dreaming or halucinating so the Colonel punches him. Jack pulls of Teal'c's cap to reveal no symbol of Aphophis and a full head of hair.

Jack ponders that they've been pulled into a time machine and they are both reliving his past. The mission begins and Jack joins in, remembering past mistakes. However, the Colonel dies in his arms anyway. Jack and Teal'c fall back but suddenly the entire scene begins again.

We then see Sam and Daniel's side of things, both dressed in different clothing. Daniel is wearing a very comfy/seventies looking sweater and Sam looks great in her outfit!!!! Daniel recognizes it as the New York Museum of Art. He goes to an exhibition being set up where a coverstone is being lowered into place with a man and a woman supervising underneath it. Daniel reveals that they are his parents. The structure collapses as Daniel watches in horror.

Back to Jack and Teal'c who are doing round two. Just as Jack suggests something that would change the outcome, many black robed people appear. The assault begins and the Colonel dies again, in almost the same time and place.

Jack then threatens the Colonel the next time it all begins again and the Keeper introduces himself and tells Jack to stop arguing and proceed with the mission. The Keeper tells Jack that it's what it's what he's always wished for. Jack reveals that it was the worst blown mission that he's participated in and the Keeper tells him that it was one mission he's always wanted to change. Jack refuses to play the game and stays with his back turned as he listens to gunfire in the distance.

Sam is trying to comfort Daniel over the witnessing of his parents death. Sam beings to theorize what has happened and she doesn't think it's a time travel device as there's no youngDaniel also witnessing the accident and she thinks it's just a piece of advanced technology. Daniel makes an attempt to get his parents out of there, and they call him Danny. Daniel tells them he hurt himself, and broke his leg, which his mother tells him that he's not hurt that badly as he's still walking. The structure collapses again. Sam points out the black robed audience and tells him it's probably a simulation of a memory, the strongest one he remembers. Daniel reveals that he's spent a long time contemplating if he could have done anything to change the outcome and the Keeper morphs from one of the bystanders. After another collapse Daniel refuses to play and walks away from the soon to be accident scene.

The Keeper plays with a device and brings Jack and Teal'c into Daniel's reality. Sam explains her theory to Jack. Sam wants to know how it works and Jack demands to be let go but the Keeper explains he can't. The Keeper tells them that Teal'c and Sam have a block on their minds, hence they didn't get their own reality. Teal'c because of the symbiote, and Teal'c guesses that Jolinar may be the reason for Sam's block.

The Keeper tells them that the outside world is uninhabitable and was destroyed by a chemical attack, they destroyed their own planet. Sam tells them that their planet is fine, beautiful and habitable. The Keeper becomes upset and Jack surmises that the Keeper is keeping it from the other residents. When Jack begins to yell the truth to the residents, the Keeper removes the residents from the reality. Daniel points out that if they stay in the realities they will have to interract with the residents and the Keeper abruptly releases them.

Back at the SGC Daniel proposes that they head back to the planet to rescue the residents but Janet points out that they can't remove the people because the machines could be keeping them alive. Hammond wants SG-1 to go back for more information and SG-1 balks. Hammond is really pushy towards SG-1 and convincing them to stay, telling Jack he could see his son. Jack tells Hammond he's not the real Hammond, Sam catches on quickly. When Hammond slips and calls the captives residents, the rest of SG-1 realise that Jack is telling the truth. Hammond orders them to isolation.

One of the guards in their room is Kawalsky who tries to convince them all that it really isn't a bad thing to be in a reality they could imagine, or one they would like to relive. Jack asks Kawalsky who he really is and then attacks him, SG-1 escaping.

The residents meet them in the hallway and SG-1 explain to them what their planet looks like. Jack leads them all to the fake gateroom where Hammond shuts down the gate and then morphs into the Keeper with SG-1 hot on his heels. They come across themselves sitting motionless in the devices and then they awaken.

They catch the Keeper who explains that his people damaged their planet and he doesn't want to let them out as they'll ruin their world again. We see the residents outside enjoying the garden and SG-1 heads home as the Keeper freaks out on the residents who are happliy picking flowers.

Implications for Sam and Jack: Overall, nothing I can see really. Anyone else?

I find this episode to be more of a Jack/Teal'c and Sam/Daniel friendship episode and taking an episode to explain Daniel's loss and Jack's past. I think this is the first time we see any evidence that Jolinar has changed something in Sam's body (I haven't watched Prisoners yet... was there anything in there?) as both her and Teal'c have a block on their minds.

While it's interesting to see Jack as a Captain and get an idea of his background, Daniel's memory/reality is more life changing. We see where he got his passion for history and his father is a Dr too. Is this the only time in the series where Daniel refers to his parents? His memory is quite clear but I wouldn't be able to guess his age. I will say he's probably older than 6 but not over 12 or so by the way his parents address and talk to him.

While TPTB explain why they don't go into Sam's background and allude to Jolinar as the cause, I can't help but wonder why they didn't use her memory. I like seeing Daniel's memory but it would've been good to see some of Sam's background as at this point we still don't know that much about her. What would her memory have been? It is hinted that it's the strongest moment or the moment they want to change most and it fits with Daniel's memory. Would Sam's have been her mothers death? Why wasn't Jack's strongest memory or thing he wanted to change the most have been his son's death? Was it perhaps just a decision by TPTB so as not to focus the entire episode on death? It just doesn't seem to fit with what's written in the episode.

For strongest memories, Daniel's fits. Jack's could have been his son's death, Sam's her mothers death and what about Teal'c had he had his own reality? His fathers death?

The lead resident has been in either SG-1 or SGA???? I recognize her face.

I've taken the [IMG] tags off but if you lick the return to post button you can see the banner for this ep...

[VSS]

Huh. Maybe they're a little small. I've been keeping them little because I don't want to run afoul of the mods but they can be up to 75 kb. Like the one of Achaja's for Prisoners, I posted that too small. I'm going to go back and see if I can enlarge it.

[Kel]

Thanks, I am waiting impatiently

[Rac80]

As for the snatch-and-grab mission scene with Jack back in 1982 I'll give you the lowdown.

<snipped for size>
All in all it was a pretty good military enactment for a television show that, while it may have fallen prey to some hollywood fallacies, came through on most of the details.

great analysis, mental green for you! I too get peeved when props people miss things and have inaccurate props...ie Roots cap and velcro in the 80's. that is a pet peeve of mine. (once saw a scene that was supposedly set at a dance in the 1950's that had a disco ball in it! )
This ep gave us a look into Daniel's past that I found interesting... his parents seemed to be as involved in their work as he gets. I guess as a parent myself, the way they brushed him off bothered me. but then I never took my child to work with me. At least we learned that Daniel comes by his intensity from his parents.

[VSS]

This ep gave us a look into Daniel's past that I found interesting... his parents seemed to be as involved in their work as he gets. I guess as a parent myself, the way they brushed him off bothered me. but then I never took my child to work with me. At least we learned that Daniel comes by his intensity from his parents.

Perhaps it's archeology - I remember from the movie Katherine went to the dig with her father and he ignored her- to the extent that she stole one of the artifacts (the Ra necklace that she gave to Daniel). It seems like it'd be fun and educational for the child, and it seems sort of benign (though it might not end up being any of those things), so I could see an archeologist doing it. A chemist or nuclear engineer- probably not!

[gater62]

Perhaps it's archeology - I remember from the movie Katherine went to the dig with her father and he ignored her- to the extent that she stole one of the artifacts (the Ra necklace that she gave to Daniel). It seems like it'd be fun and educational for the child, and it seems sort of benign (though it might not end up being any of those things), so I could see an archeologist doing it. A chemist or nuclear engineer- probably not!

Could you imagine the Carter-O'Neill children at work? All that ancient technology that some child with the ancient gene could activate? Chaos!!!

[Kel]

Why chaos?))) It seems to me it would be funny if the child with ancient gene and Oneills curiosity found ancient technology

[hedwig]

Could you imagine the Carter-O'Neill children at work? All that ancient technology that some child with the ancient gene could activate? Chaos!!!

I'd have to go looking for titles/authors, but there have been several fanfictions that dealt with just that - Carter-O'Neill children activating various kinds of ancient technology. Some of it was good, some so-so. There was an apocafic with Sam/Jack and numerous other characters from SG1 surviving on another planet, and of course S/J had a child, and when she was about 4 or 5, a bunch of cargo-type ships (not the usual Tok'ra or Goa'uld ones) were found on the planet, and the child was the only one who seemed able to get them working (because of whatever genes she had inherited from J/S). The story was actually quite good.

One I definitely remember is by Janissima (I think), called "A Father's Determination" wherein J/S little son (J.J.) was used to activate some kind of technology that only he (along with Jack) could activate.

[VSS]

Why chaos?))) It seems to me it would be funny if the child with ancient gene and Oneills curiosity found ancient technology

Funny in a ha-ha kind of way or in an oops-there-goes-the-universe kind of way?

If there's one thing that twelve years of Stargate have shown it's that the Tau'ri love to dink around with tech they do not understand, in fact that's the premise of the entire series. They never should have gone through that gate, but they did, and look what happened!

Not even Sam could get the naquadria quite right in the beginning, that's how she ended up stranded in Grace. So maybe our screw-ups have been more fortuitous than what happens to other races, but they are screw-ups nonetheless.

Edit: In fact, this very chair from The Gamekeeper ends up being used in Avatar, nearly killing Teal'c as a result.

[Kel]

You are right maybe it is. We will see,I think, will see...

[Toomi]

Could you imagine the Carter-O'Neill children at work? All that ancient technology that some child with the ancient gene could activate? Chaos!!!

I think I may have read the fic Hedwig is talking about. It sounds very very familiar.

Guitar Hero?

OT

Spoiler:

Nope, real guitar. I am absolutly hopeless with guitar hero unless I do drums, and even then I start trying to play the actual song which causes lots of wrong notes

Coela Bellatore, thanks for the explanations! For someone who has no interraction with anyone military ( I have a 'step-aunt' who was in the Canadian Navy... but I've seen her maybe 4 times in my life?) and not too terribly knowledgeable of the US Armed Forces it's a huge help and gives me a ton of insight.

[Toomi]

Need


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Fave Quote: Jack to Hammond: "We had a nice time, Sir! Carter found some Naqquadah, Teal'c made some new friends as usual. Daniel go engaged and I, uh, I need a shower...." (Hammond is left gaping at Jack)


Fave Scene: When Jack confronts Daniel and ends up comforting him in the storage room.

We see SG-1 watching some Jaffa and priests (?) place a box into the wormhole. Teal'c informs them it's Naqquadah, raw and Sam points out that they had some that another team brought back but really need more. Is this the first time that Naqquadah comes into play? I'm so used to the term that it seems strange that Stargate ever managed without some.

Daniel spots a woman and dashes off for either as better look or to help. She makes her way to a ledge and Jack points out she's going to jump. Daniel bolts to save her and does so in the nick of time, alerting Jaffa to their presence. We get a shot of the woman's face, and to me she looks similar to Sha're. Anyone else?

SG-1 is chained and dragged in front of the woman's father, with Jack admonishing Daniel. The Jaffa kicks Jack to get him to kneel. Is this the first time we hear of Jack's bum knee?

The father says that only one is Jaffa and grabs Sam's face. Is he confused by Jolinar's marker and thinks she's a Jaffa or is he inspecting her as a rancher would a bull?

In the mines Sam voices that she doesn't think the father is a Goa'uld, and it's not just the voice. She states that it's something she doesn't feel and noticed it since Jolinar, and notices it around Teal'c. Teal'c agrees with Sam that the father isn't a Goa'uld. A mean Jaffa comes up and after an exchange of words, knocks Jack to the ground.

At the end of their shift in the mine SG-1 attempt an escape when a rock slide lands on Daniel. Jack orders Sam and Teal'c to leave when they are stopped. ( I always thought that Daniel died here but Sam says he's alive.)

We then see the daughter pleading with her father to leave a decision in her hands and after he leaves she opens a sarcophagos which reveal's Daniel, elaboratly dressed, inside. He wakes and Shyla explains what has happened.

Shyla takes Daniel for a walk and he asks her about his friends. She seems quite reluctant to discuss the others but Daniel picks up on Shyla's affection. When she affirms it, calling him her destiny he seems a little taken aback. Daniel stands by awkwardly as Shyla pours out her heart.

Daniel goes to see his hot, tired, and dirty friends in the mines. He infoms them that Pirus (?) isn't a Goa'uld and tells them of the sarcophagos. He also states that Shyla has a crush on him to which Sam seems quite suprised, and perhaps not freaked out, but not too happy about it. Daniel tells them he will talk to Pirus about releasing them all at dinner when Sam lights up at the mention of food and Jack walks away irritated.

Daniel discovers that Pirus is quite old, his life extended by the sarcophagos and that they send the Naqquadah through the gate to appease the other Goa'uld so they don't come to the planet. Pirus orders the rest of SG-1 killed and Shyla convinces him to not kill them. After Shyla manages to plant one on Daniel and convinces him to get back into the sarcophagos.

At this point Daniel's only been in it once correct? As his judgement seems horribly flawed. It just seems so unlike him to be allowing this woman to kiss him, unless his mind is trying to convince him it's Sha're.

Next time we see Daniel, it's in the mine and his face seems harder, less open. He's not wearing his glasses and when he talks to Jack he seems as though he's high. Sam questions it and Daniel reveals he's been in it 9 or 10 times. Jack gets angry at the lack of progress Daniel is making in freeing them. Daniel tells Jack, Shyla wants to marry him and Jack knows something is horribly wrong. Daniel yells at Jack telling him he never showed him any respect.

Back with Shyla, Daniel hints that he wants to stay with her when his friends are gone and he spurts about how he want's to make change.

Back in the mine, Jack jolts Sam awake and she blurts out "we don't use a sarcophagos" and she tells him that it was part of a dream and a memory from Jolinar. She reveals that the Tok'ra don't use a sarcophagus as it changes your mind, changes who you are.

Jack goes to see Daniel, only it's a very different Daniel. One who's lounging on a throne, snapping his fingers at Jaffa and doesn't sound at all like his usual calm self. Daniel tells him that he's agreed to marry Shyla and when he goes home to tidy up his affairs he'll take the rest of SG-1 back with him.

This is the first time we see this version of Daniel, but not the last. I find this Daniel very similar to the Absolute Power Daniel. Both seem very comfortable ordering people around, expecting their demands to be met, involved in themselves and ultimatly shutting out their friends. Anyone else see this?

Back at the SGC, Sam informs Daniel that his systems are all out of whack and when Daniel's in Sam's lab he's irratable and figity. He goes on about Sha're was once his wife and how he thinking he's making a big mistake. Sam likens his behaviour to a drug addiction and withdrawal. Daniel snaps when Sam states that Shyla used him to get him addicted. He blurts out that Sam doesn't know what love really is and Sam is very upset by that, telling him that the Daniel she knew would never say that.

Sam reports him to Hammond when Daniel stomps in with his resignation, wanting to go back to the planet but collapses. With no previous situations to compare this too other than a drug withdrawal, the decision to let Daniel just go through withdrawal is made.

Janet tells Jack that Daniel is over the worst of it but when she goes into visit Daniel he attacks her and every one else in the room. Jack chases after Daniel, ending up in a storage closet where Daniel shoots out the light. The two fight until Daniel aims the gun at Jack. Jack tells Daniel that he knows what it's like and Daniel eventually gives up. What does Jack mean? Is he just saying that to calm a friend or is it possible that he too went through a withdrawal? He doesn't smoke anymore (at least that we know of) so would he be referring to that or is it possible he had another addiction and had to deal with?

Back on the planet, a now sober Daniel talks Shyla into destroying the sarcophagus. Why? Is not not possible to take it back to Earth to study? They know the dangers of using it but what about studying what makes it work? See if they could dial it back somehow and help cure diseases etc?

Overall, there's not much I can say about Sam and Jack implications here. About the only thing I can come up with is that Daniel points out something to Sam that really is a sore point with her: the issue of her not knowing what real love is. Either she's just offended by Daniel's attitude towards her, or it really is something that bothers her.

I find this episode to be great for Daniel and Sam also. Daniel's addiction reveals a side of him that we wouldn't have imagined, yet it's something that does occur again. With Sam it's becomming aparent that the blending with Jolinar has changed her in ways they can't understand.

[VSS]

The father says that only one is Jaffa and grabs Sam's face. Is he confused by Jolinar's marker and thinks she's a Jaffa or is he inspecting her as a rancher would a bull?

This scene really stands out in my mind. Pirus is attracted to her- the way he lets go of her head and then runs his hand through her hair shows that. And the camera pans to Jack (and only Jack) twice- once when Pirus grabs her hair and pulls her back the first time and then when he runs his hand through her hair. I think that (like in Prisoners) he has a pretty clear idea of what might be going through this guy's head, and he doesn't like it. So, again, it's that protective streak that seems to have surfaced ever since ItLoD. And if you watch really closely when they're escaping, he puts his hand on her back and pushes her ahead of him. Not sure if that's a gratuitous touching moment, but he doesn't need to do that- there's only one way out and she's moving as fast as she can.

Shyla takes Daniel for a walk and he asks her about his friends. She seems quite reluctant to discuss the others but Daniel picks up on Shyla's affection. When she affirms it, calling him her destiny he seems a little taken aback. Daniel stands by awkwardly as Shyla pours out her heart.

When she says he's her destiny, and he says "Whoa, whoa, what?" I always smile.

Daniel discovers that Pirus is quite old, his life extended by the sarcophagos and that they send the Naqquadah through the gate to appease the other Goa'uld so they don't come to the planet. Pirus orders the rest of SG-1 killed and Shyla convinces him to not kill them.

Daniel massively screws up in this scene, totally blowing the undercover act he's supposed to be putting on to convince Pirus to let them go. He should be agreeing with every little thing the crazy old coot says- but instead he's getting on his soapbox about enslaving the people. Classic Daniel.Practical concerns just don't get his attention- lofty theories do.

At this point Daniel's only been in it once correct? As his judgement seems horribly flawed. It just seems so unlike him to be allowing this woman to kiss him, unless his mind is trying to convince him it's Sha're.

I never noticed that before, but it did affect him right away- I noticed that when he comes to see SG-1 for the first time he gives this little smile about the "royal robes"- he kind of likes them. In normal circumstances he'd have rolled his eyes at them as being a total nuisance. IS the effect of a sarcophagus somewhat cumulative- that is, he's more vulnerable because he's been in one before?

Daniel yells at Jack telling him he never showed him any respect.

This is a key moment, I think. The sarcophagus seems to bring out the worst in people, but it's characteristics they already have. He does feel belittled by Jack, because he is. I wonder if Jack regrets the way he's treated Daniel- but I kind of doubt it.

This is the first time we see this version of Daniel, but not the last. I find this Daniel very similar to the Absolute Power Daniel. Both seem very comfortable ordering people around, expecting their demands to be met, involved in themselves and ultimatly shutting out their friends. Anyone else see this?

Oh, definitely. This is one of Daniel's recurring themes- his basic lack of self-confidence. Even in Continuum AU Daniel can't even believe that someone else (Daniel) would believe in him! So when he gets a chance at power and respect, he goes for it. There must be deficiencies that the others have that they try to compensate for when the opportunity comes along- for Jack, I think it's peace and quiet (100 Days, Moebius), for Sam and Teal'c I'm not so sure.

The two fight until Daniel aims the gun at Jack. Jack tells Daniel that he knows what it's like and Daniel eventually gives up. What does Jack mean? Is he just saying that to calm a friend or is it possible that he too went through a withdrawal? He doesn't smoke anymore (at least that we know of) so would he be referring to that or is it possible he had another addiction and had to deal with?

To me, this is like the reference to prison that Jack made in the last episode- a vague reference to his dark and shadowy past. It's almost like he led some kind of double life- happy family man on the one hand and black ops, drug-addicted, POW on the other. That scene with Daniel shows such sensitivity I wonder why Jack isn't stark raving mad by now? I don't really know how a person can be like that and do all the things he's done. But, it's a great scene with Daniel and Jack, for sure.

Back on the planet, a now sober Daniel talks Shyla into destroying the sarcophagus. Why? Is not not possible to take it back to Earth to study? They know the dangers of using it but what about studying what makes it work?

Agreed. Big mistake there. It's not like it magically casts a spell and drags people in there- they know enough to stay out of it, and yet still study it. Or use it in an emergency.

Overall, there's not much I can say about Sam and Jack implications here. About the only thing I can come up with is that Daniel points out something to Sam that really is a sore point with her: the issue of her not knowing what real love is.

There's something about this episode that makes me go, "Hmmm". I think her reaction there is pretty significant, because she makes no attempt to deny it. He's clearly hit a nerve and he did it deliberately. I think that's the first hint that we get about Sam and her attachment difficulties- which is one of her themes throughout the series, too, and has a major impact on the ship, of course, even though it's just the tip of the iceberg here.
Also, I think Jack's reaction to Pirus in the first minutes of the episode is interesting- or maybe it's the way they choose to highlight Jack's reaction. But that little bit of a scene has always made a big impact on me and I'm not sure why. Maybe because it's so much more obvious than it's been in the past.

[VSS]

Also, Toomi- love the rancher and bull comment. I get the feeling we live really close to each other. LOL! I can so see that!