Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

Politics
Favorite Scene: Hmm. Don’t really have one since this is mostly a clip show.

Favorite Quote:
Jack: Engaged?
Sam: It is theoretically possible.
Jack: It’s against the regulations!

Banner by hbt 123

Clip shows don’t bother me, especially this one because there is a point to be made here. And of course, the quote above is very interesting because Jack’s reaction isn’t to reject the idea out of hand. He could have said something like “Carter?” but it’s not the idea of Sam that bothers him- it’s the rules. And he’s still thinking about it even after she finishes her explanation of alternate realities, whereas Sam is simply fascinated with the scientific implications of it all.

Even though Kinsey is a real jerk, he does have a point about the stargate program being too risky and very expensive with little to show for it until now. I like the Pandora’s box metaphor, though I’m not sure what’s meant by keeping hope inside in reference to the Stargate.

SG-1 has saved several civilizations, I think that makes us different from the other four great races, though that isn’t really mentioned in the series. We might not be as smart as the others, but we’re nicer. I think that quality makes us as least as good as the others, although I’m sure that’s up for debate.

We get a little follow up on Kynthia, and Jack mentions he’d like to retire there. With Kynthia? Interestingly, it wasn’t SG-1 who followed up there. Why not?

Obviously, however, Kinsey makes the wrong decision. And that leads us to the next episode.

Implications for Sam and Jack:
Jack’s reaction to “his” engagement in the other reality is very interesting. I’m sure they’d both laughed it off and then privately wondered “What if?”

[leiasky]

Politics

it’s not the idea of Sam that bothers him- it’s the rules.

Yeah, that was pretty telling. He's not against the idea because of Carter, he's shocked because it would be breaking the regs.

I actually like this episode quite a bit - for a clip show - which I usually hate.

[KatG]

Politics
Favorite Scene: Hmm. Don’t really have one since this is mostly a clip show.

Favorite Quote:
Jack: Engaged?
Sam: It is theoretically possible.
Jack: It’s against the regulations!

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...rewatchS1P.jpg
Banner by hbt 123

Clip shows don’t bother me, especially this one because there is a point to be made here. And of course, the quote above is very interesting because Jack’s reaction isn’t to reject the idea out of hand. He could have said something like “Carter?” but it’s not the idea of Sam that bothers him- it’s the rules. And he’s still thinking about it even after she finishes her explanation of alternate realities, whereas Sam is simply fascinated with the scientific implications of it all.}

{snip}

Implications for Sam and Jack:
Jack’s reaction to “his” engagement in the other reality is very interesting. I’m sure they’d both laughed it off and then privately wondered “What if?”

I don't mind clip shows either if they serve a purpose - SG-1's usually did.

I find Jack's reaction to the engagement interesting too. His only objection is that it's against the regs. Never once does he imply that he's opposed to the idea itself. Simarlarly, in Broca Divide - when asked by Sam "don't you want me", he didn't say "no", he said "not like this", which I've always found quite interesting.

Both of those reactions, make me question those who say any feelings between Sam/Jack are only on Sam's part.

[Oma-1]

Politics
Favorite Scene: Hmm. Don’t really have one since this is mostly a clip show.

Favorite Quote:
Jack: Engaged?
Sam: It is theoretically possible.
Jack: It’s against the regulations!

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...rewatchS1P.jpg
Banner by hbt 123

My fave scene goes along with my fave quote - which funnily enough is the same as yours Although I do love the confrontation with Jack and Kinsey too. "They really are at the gate! That one!"

And I love Teal'c's impassioned defence - and not-so veiled threat too

That banner by Rose is really fab

Clip shows don’t bother me, especially this one because there is a point to be made here. And of course, the quote above is very interesting because Jack’s reaction isn’t to reject the idea out of hand. He could have said something like “Carter?” but it’s not the idea of Sam that bothers him- it’s the rules. And he’s still thinking about it even after she finishes her explanation of alternate realities, whereas Sam is simply fascinated with the scientific implications of it all.

Hmmm, very reminicent of BD for me. His comment is very much in the same vein as "Not like this!" There was some discussion here a few days ago about the development of Sam & Jack's feelings for each other (I think in the Solitude discussion?), and iirc someone said that they felt that Sam realised her feelings for Jack first, before he did, as a result of their stay in Antarctica and Jack possibly not remembering a lot what happened, and certainly not at the end.

I was very interested in that, because I've always felt that Jack understood more clearly his growing feelings for Sam (and possibly even welcomed that he had healed enough from Charlie and his divorce to be able to feel that way again). BD and this scene would be my evidence for that. Maybe Sam is just better at covering, and her natural excitement about the scientific ramifications of Daniel's AU experience covered for her just nicely in this instance

Even though Kinsey is a real jerk, he does have a point about the stargate program being too risky and very expensive with little to show for it until now. I like the Pandora’s box metaphor, though I’m not sure what’s meant by keeping hope inside in reference to the Stargate.

Don't you just hate it when the bad guy has a point? The Stargate is risky and it is expensive. Although it doesn't make me respect him in any way (Any ep with Kinsey always makes me think of Hoodatwatzit's You're An ****** video ) To me Kinsey is complete hypocrite. His words are all God fearing, but his actions and attitudes are completely the opposite (puts me in mind of that faith without works scripture in James). He has no regard for the good that SG-1 have done out there in the Galaxy, for the Allies they've found, for the scientific knowledge that has been gathered. For him, its all numbers and weapons. Oh, and control. He really, really likes to be in control.

As for the Pandora's box hope thing, I was kinda hoping someone would explain that for me, cos I haven't the faintest idea either *looks around for Josi or Aveo*

SG-1 has saved several civilizations, I think that makes us different from the other four great races, though that isn’t really mentioned in the series. We might not be as smart as the others, but we’re nicer. I think that quality makes us as least as good as the others, although I’m sure that’s up for debate.

That's a very good point. I think the compassion that SG-1 show (even Jack!) is one of their many strengths.

We get a little follow up on Kynthia, and Jack mentions he’d like to retire there. With Kynthia? Interestingly, it wasn’t SG-1 who followed up there. Why not?

I try not to think about that bit too much, it grosses me out. Mainly because RDA looked so awful in that old guy make-up. Shallow, I know My take on SG-1 not being the ones to go back is simply that they are an exploration team. There are other teams that generally do the follow up visits and write the treaties. The only exceptions to that seem to be the Tok'ra and Asgard. And that's usually because they specifically request SG-1, or they need SG-1 to save their butts.

Obviously, however, Kinsey makes the wrong decision. And that leads us to the next episode.

Surprise!

Implications for Sam and Jack:
Jack’s reaction to “his” engagement in the other reality is very interesting. I’m sure they’d both laughed it off and then privately wondered “What if?”

I like to think that somewhere, in a AU not very far from this one (especially if you apply the 6 steps away principle), there's a Jack pondering his engagement in another AU to me

I like the way Jack defers to Carter for the correct pronunciation of Goa'uld. It's already automatic that he looks to her first, when he could have asked either Daniel (who was with him when they first found out about the Goa'uld and is a language and pronunciation expert) or Teal'c (who served them for 80+ years).

Oh, I have a question...Where does the figure $7.2 billion come from? I have no idea about Defence budgets....would that be realistic, or is it some huge figure made up for impact ? Cos that's an awful lot of bake sales..... sorry

[josiane]

Hmmm, very reminicent of BD for me. His comment is very much in the same vein as "Not like this!" There was some discussion here a few days ago about the development of Sam & Jack's feelings for each other (I think in the Solitude discussion?), and iirc someone said that they felt that Sam realised her feelings for Jack first, before he did, as a result of their stay in Antarctica and Jack possibly not remembering a lot what happened, and certainly not at the end.

I was very interested in that, because I've always felt that Jack understood more clearly his growing feelings for Sam (and possibly even welcomed that he had healed enough from Charlie and his divorce to be able to feel that way again). BD and this scene would be my evidence for that. Maybe Sam is just better at covering, and her natural excitement about the scientific ramifications of Daniel's AU experience covered for her just nicely in this instance

I agree with this, and with what VSS said, that Jack's reaction to the engagement is very telling, just like BD.

As for the Pandora's box hope thing, I was kinda hoping someone would explain that for me, cos I haven't the faintest idea either *looks around for Josi or Aveo*

Pandora's Box The point about hope remaining in the box is that that's the one thing man has left to have any control over, so I guess here in this episode it's pointing out that yes, curiosity might potentially kill the cat, but we still have hope that we can win in the end, and therefore its our attitude (ie, Jack's and SG1s) that is the only thing that can defeat the Goa'uld, not Kinsey's, which would effectively be giving up hope too. Does that help?

[gater62]

Pandora's Box The point about hope remaining in the box is that that's the one thing man has left to have any control over, so I guess here in this episode it's pointing out that yes, curiosity might potentially kill the cat, but we still have hope that we can win in the end, and therefore its our attitude (ie, Jack's and SG1s) that is the only thing that can defeat the Goa'uld, not Kinsey's, which would effectively be giving up hope too. Does that help?

I took it to mean essentially the same thing. Hope is found at the bottom of the box after all those evil things were let loose on the world. Just by opening the gate, they let loose the gouald to attack earth, but there is still hope by going out and exploring the universe to find solutions to mankind's problems. Not just to find ways to defeat their enemies, but also find technologies and cures that will help the peopl of earth.

[Oma-1]

Yep, thanks I knew you wouldn't be far behind with the answer *hugs*

[VSS]

I don't mind clip shows either if they serve a purpose - SG-1's usually did.

I find Jack's reaction to the engagement interesting too. His only objection is that it's against the regs. Never once does he imply that he's opposed to the idea itself. Simarlarly, in Broca Divide - when asked by Sam "don't you want me", he didn't say "no", he said "not like this", which I've always found quite interesting.

Both of those reactions, make me question those who say any feelings between Sam/Jack are only on Sam's part.

Oh, that's a nice parallel- both of those reactions of Jack's are very similar.
I think that Jack's feelings are more obvious before Season 4, but he becomes much more effective at hiding them. Perhaps people are just recalling the more recent seasons when they imply Jack's feelings are less than Sam's. If one considers the two most obviously shippy episodes- WoO and D&C one would be inclined to think just the opposite.

My fave scene goes along with my fave quote - which funnily enough is the same as yours Although I do love the confrontation with Jack and Kinsey too. "They really are at the gate! That one!"

Oma! You're here.
I love it when Jack blows up at Kinsey, although you have to wonder if it doesn't backfire a little on him in this episode. I guess Jack comes to the (accurate, I think) conclusion that Kinsey's mind is made up.

That banner by Rose is really fab

'Tis. All of you artsy shippers have done a fantastic job with this, BTW.

I was very interested in that, because I've always felt that Jack understood more clearly his growing feelings for Sam (and possibly even welcomed that he had healed enough from Charlie and his divorce to be able to feel that way again). BD and this scene would be my evidence for that. Maybe Sam is just better at covering, and her natural excitement about the scientific ramifications of Daniel's AU experience covered for her just nicely in this instance

I go back and forth on this. Jack's behavior in D&C makes me think that he hadn't thought things through nearly as well as Sam. But, it's possible that the concept occurred to him earlier, he just dismissed it as impossible or inconsequential. One thing I definitely think is that Sam is not very good at hiding her feelings at all. On anything. So in this ep, I really do think she just thinks it's an interesting coincidence (after all, EvenstarSRV pointed out there are an infinite number of AUs, so she's bound to end up with him in one of them- it's only later in PoV that we for sure know it's more than coincidence because it happens again) and is more interested in thinking about AUs rather than thinking about the two of them.

Don't you just hate it when the bad guy has a point? The Stargate is risky and it is expensive. Although it doesn't make me respect him in any way (Any ep with Kinsey always makes me think of Hoodatwatzit's You're An ****** video ) To me Kinsey is complete hypocrite. His words are all God fearing, but his actions and attitudes are completely the opposite (puts me in mind of that faith without works scripture in James).

He is a hypocrite, but since Stargate has never been terribly subtle about its political and religious points, it's hard not to see this guy as the absolute caricature of a conservative Christian. And, (although I think your comment was fine, Oma, because it's just speculation on Kinsey)- we probably shouldn't be discussing the merits of a specific religious or political affiliation currently held by GW members. Despite the name of this episode, I personally think it'd be better if we didn't talk politics! Or religion! I've seen too many discussions turn sour because of this. Thanks to everyone in advance . I'm sort of taking it as a given that no one around here still worships Niirti or Ra, of course.

Oh, and control. He really, really likes to be in control.

That, I think, is Kinsey in a nutshell. His patriotism and his religiosity is an excuse for him to do what he wants to do, anyway.

That's a very good point. I think the compassion that SG-1 show (even Jack!) is one of their many strengths.

I think it's a strength, but in the big scheme of things, it isn't a strength unless it has survival value for the species.

In that, Kinsey's position isn't unlike the Tollan or the Nox. They only think about themselves and their race, too.

My take on SG-1 not being the ones to go back is simply that they are an exploration team. There are other teams that generally do the follow up visits and write the treaties. The only exceptions to that seem to be the Tok'ra and Asgard. And that's usually because they specifically request SG-1, or they need SG-1 to save their butts.

That seems like a good explanation to me. I think that's also a good explanation why not all the teams are lead by Colonels. Not all of them need someone with so much military experience.

I like to think that somewhere, in a AU not very far from this one (especially if you apply the 6 steps away principle), there's a Jack pondering his engagement in another AU to me

As long as the earth isn't blown to smithereens in that AU, I'm all for it.

I like the way Jack defers to Carter for the correct pronunciation of Goa'uld. It's already automatic that he looks to her first, when he could have asked either Daniel (who was with him when they first found out about the Goa'uld and is a language and pronunciation expert) or Teal'c (who served them for 80+ years).

Maybe it's just because he was sitting right next to her (again). The Random Chance Seating Arrangement odds are now down to 4% again, which means it's not random chance at all.

Oh, I have a question...Where does the figure $7.2 billion come from? I have no idea about Defence budgets....would that be realistic, or is it some huge figure made up for impact ? Cos that's an awful lot of bake sales..... sorry

Well, considering NASA's current budget is $17 billion, it sounds like a bargain. Even accounting for inflation at 3% it would still come out less than that. Although the astronauts never brought back any life-threatening diseases, as far as we know.

Pandora's Box The point about hope remaining in the box is that that's the one thing man has left to have any control over, so I guess here in this episode it's pointing out that yes, curiosity might potentially kill the cat, but we still have hope that we can win in the end, and therefore its our attitude (ie, Jack's and SG1s) that is the only thing that can defeat the Goa'uld, not Kinsey's, which would effectively be giving up hope too. Does that help?

That makes sense to me. I'm like Jack in that scene when he says he can't talk in metaphors...

[VSS]

Within the Serpent’s Grasp

Favorite Quote:
TEAL'C: "If the coordinates are of a Goa'uld world, which is not on the Abydos, cartouche, the Goa'uld will most likely not expect us. I believe a medical attack could be successful."

O'NEILL: "Surgical attack, Teal'c. It's called a surgical attack,

Favorite scene: When the view of earth fills the screen. Chilling!

Thanks, Rose!

I like this episode because we learn a lot of new things about the situation with the goa’uld, and it’s really the first time we see the global ramifications of everything that’s been done, really ever since the first Abydos mission. SG-1 ticked off the goa’uld, and they’re gunning for us. It’s interesting that they choose black BDUs for this mission- have we seen those before? And their stargate patches have been removed. I guess they really do feel they are on their own.

To address Teal’c’s question in the lines I quoted, are these coordinates of the gate from that planet- and then the gate was stolen from the planet’s surface?

Spoiler:

That must be the case since the goa’uld don’t really know anything about building gates. Do we ever find out if it is on the cartouche? Also, Carter is pretty darn impressive if she can take the constellations used on our gate and make them into actual coordinates in space, and just like that figure out how far away this planet is. I’m not sure if it’s even possible for a computer but it makes for a nice story. I really should quit obsessing about this.

Anyway, one thing that never changes (even if Stargate’s theories of gate addresses seem to fluctuate) is that you have to have a point of origin to dial out- and it changes if you move the gate. So they can’t go home again. This is the first experience they have where the gate is not located on a planet and it must have been really neat to watch this the first time and realize they’re actually on a ship! And this is where we first see Zat guns.

Much has changes in the months since Teal’c has become a shol’va- he thought they were on a cargo ship- and even when they knew it wasn’t he didn’t think it could go as fast as it did. Is there something the SGC and all its teams have done to upset the balance of power and suddenly allow Apophis to gain all this new tech? Was it because they took out Ra? Well, that seemed like a good idea at the time. Admittedly, the story of stargate includes lessons about unforeseen consequences.

Why does Daniel give Sam that long look when she doesn’t blow the C4 right away? Is he thinking she’s acting on emotion just as Jack did when he went for Skaara? Jack rationalized trying to capture Skaara/Klorel by saying it was an appropriate military decision, but was it? Not only is he risking his life, but the lives of his team members as well. In the end, however, Jack does shoot Skaara/Klorel as he’s trying to kill Daniel. Is this some kind of symmetry with the scene in Thor’s Hammer where Jack forces Daniel to essentially choose between Teal’c and someday helping Sha’re? It seems like it’s the same choice.

Implications for Sam and Jack: It seems as though the team has solidified a great deal over the past year. They share their primary goal- the safety of earth and the destruction of the goa’uld- and they know that the team will stick together and stand by each other even when it seems like the entire universe is against them. I do not think they’d have even tried this kind of mission in the first few episodes, even if the circumstances were otherwise the same.

[gater62]

I'm going off memory here, so please excuse me if I get this wrong--I love the beginning of this when the team is discussing whether or not they should go. I love how Jack gives Sam an out-to not go on the mission. He knows she's a rule follower and we can see some of the need to protect her by telling her she doesn't have to go. I also love how despite the fact that Sam knows and can quote the regs, when it comes right down to it, she is willing to do what it takes to make sure that this planet is safe. She is willing to follow Jack to certain death because ultimately it's the right thing to do. I think this shows how early in the series the deep level of trust Sam has in Jack.

[VSS]

I'm going off memory here, so please excuse me if I get this wrong--I love the beginning of this when the team is discussing whether or not they should go. I love how Jack gives Sam an out-to not go on the mission. He knows she's a rule follower and we can see some of the need to protect her by telling her she doesn't have to go. I also love how despite the fact that Sam knows and can quote the regs, when it comes right down to it, she is willing to do what it takes to make sure that this planet is safe. She is willing to follow Jack to certain death because ultimately it's the right thing to do. I think this shows how early in the series the deep level of trust Sam has in Jack.

I agree, and I guess that's what I meant by the team "solidifying"- they trust each other- Sam trusts Jack's leadership capacity, Daniel's knowledge and Teal'c's loyalty and dedication to fighting the goa'uld.

IIRC, when they get back no one mentions a court-martial. I guess saving the earth gets them out of trouble. I wonder if it would in real life?

[EvenstarSRV]

Is it Where do Broken Hearts Go, by Telkena?
That's MA rated, though. She posts at the Sam and Jack forever & always site. I think that fic was nominated for a Blue Moon Award though I don't know if it won. So it might be there, too.

Nope, it was quite PG and I've never been to the Sam and Jack Forever site.

Here it is, After the Dream by Ruth M. King: http://www.snowqueen.demon.co.uk/Sta...the_Dream.html

It got a bit too shippy in places, especially to end, for my tastes, but I really enjoyed seeing Sam take parts in the events of the movie.

Why does Daniel give Sam that long look when she doesn’t blow the C4 right away? Is he thinking she’s acting on emotion just as Jack did when he went for Skaara? Jack rationalized trying to capture Skaara/Klorel by saying it was an appropriate military decision, but was it? Not only is he risking his life, but the lives of his team members as well. In the end, however, Jack does shoot Skaara/Klorel as he’s trying to kill Daniel. Is this some kind of symmetry with the scene in Thor’s Hammer where Jack forces Daniel to essentially choose between Teal’c and someday helping Sha’re? It seems like it’s the same choice.

Good catch, I do think they were intentionally drawing a parallel between Jack and Skaara in this episode and Daniel and Sha're in Thor's Hammer.

Implications for Sam and Jack: It seems as though the team has solidified a great deal over the past year. They share their primary goal- the safety of earth and the destruction of the goa’uld- and they know that the team will stick together and stand by each other even when it seems like the entire universe is against them. I do not think they’d have even tried this kind of mission in the first few episodes, even if the circumstances were otherwise the same.

Definitely agree here, this is one of my favorite team episodes of the series and you really can see how far all of them have come since the pilot.

[VSS]

< requote from deleted post snipped by Moderator>

I get no respect around here.

[Coela Bellatore]

I get no respect around here.

*Spoiler tag inserted for off topic conversation*

Spoiler:

Weird tangent. Because I'm super over achiever I learned Pushtu dialects from my Afghan friend before I came here (oddly enough I also learned Arabic from an Iranian friend and was able notice a foreign fighter posing as a farmer one day because of his Iranian accent) but the local Afghan expect you to be a dumb-**** Alabama Hick who depends entirely on his translator. If you ask them a question without your translator present then they will say things in Pashtu like "I will rape your sister soldier boy" or "may the crows feast on your flesh" or "when you leave the village allah will strike you dead [means an IED]). They are literally telling you how they will kill you to your face while smiling and hugging you. I always play along and then right before we leave I cuff em and stuff em in the trunk (I let the nice ones who only try to shoot us ride in the cab). That is some disrespect.

Another thing is when they get shot and are lying there. When you walk up to them, they glare at you and say (after you search them for grenades and hidden pistols or suicide vests) "We will triumph, I will have your head infidel!" I always respond to it by saying back to them in Pastu: "Yes, but who of us is still alive bother? (using the word for Son of Allah)" Then they usually look confused and puzzled and then die. I like to give them something to think about because otherwise they scream and throw blood and gore everywhere which they know is unsettling. I also like to use Son of Allah because usually Afghans use it with other Islamic friends and the intimacy of it surprises them, I figure its the same God so we really are brothers in God.

[trupi]

Weird tangent. Because I'm super over achiever I learned Pushtu dialects from my Afghan friend before I came here (oddly enough I also learned Arabic from an Iranian friend and was able notice a foreign fighter posing as a farmer one day because of his Iranian accent) but the local Afghan expect you to be a dumb-**** Alabama Hick who depends entirely on his translator. If you ask them a question without your translator present then they will say things in Pashtu like "I will rape your sister soldier boy" or "may the crows feast on your flesh" or "when you leave the village allah will strike you dead [means an IED]). They are literally telling you how they will kill you to your face while smiling and hugging you. I always play along and then right before we leave I cuff em and stuff em in the trunk (I let the nice ones who only try to shoot us ride in the cab). That is some disrespect.

Not an over achiever, just smart and a survivor. You adapt to your surroundings so you can survive in an extremely hostile environment. No wonder you like Jack