Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hedwig]

[QUOTE=VSS;10151234]

Spoiler:

Oh, I don't think American viewers necessarily feel that way, but we've all learned how to be PC especially on a forum like this. Let's just say that I don't get my news from cable TV- Mostly I read RealClearPolitics so i get where you're coming from.

It depends entirely on your own perception.

Spoiler:

I don't ship anyone on SGA because I've never seen anyone showing some romantic feelings towards another character there, maybe except Sheppard/Teyla in the pilot and McKay/Katie, but I was never really invested in SGA characters so I just shrugged it off. oh, and I've never seen Ronon/Amelia as well.

And on SG-1 I ship S/J only but even then I take a lot of "shippy" moments as friendship only. And I've never seen any other ship on the show, but there are/were D/V, Daniel/Janet, Sam/Martouf etc shippers.

I completely agree with that last paragraph. I practice evidence-based shipping, myself.


.
This is news to me, also. But the dates line up as you say. Thanks for pointing that out. Although it makes me feel even worse for poor Jack!


I'm not sure if they ever come right out and say it, but it's clear she's the medic. For one thing, if she weren't she wouldn't have the stuff to splint his leg in this episode. Those look like real emergency splints to me. I don't think anyone but the medic is going to carry that much stuff, plus some of her comments indicate medical training. Also, in Frozen she helps resuscitate Aiyana, and Frasier clearly knows Sam can do it, so she's had advanced cardiac life support training (ACLS) which is something only a medic is going to learn because it's really time-consuming. Finally, it's logical, as Aris Boch indicates in Dead Man Switch when we find out that Daniel definitely isn't the medic . She's military, and lower in rank than Jack, and has scientific training. They probably wouldn't have him be team leader and be the medic. In Heroes Jack is wounded before Janet, so naturally she goes to him first, although I think her initial response to his injury is not her medical background manifesting itself, that's for sure.

It's Monday morning and I haven't had my morning coffee yet, so I could be misremembering ... but there was an episode where Sam states "I have field medic training". I just don't recall (at the moment) which episode it was in. ... whether it was in the early seasons or later.

[VSS]

[QUOTE=hedwig;10151492]

It's Monday morning and I haven't had my morning coffee yet, so I could be misremembering ... but there was an episode where Sam states "I have field medic training". I just don't recall (at the moment) which episode it was in. ... whether it was in the early seasons or later.

Too bad you weren't here an hour ago...
You could have spared everyone from the boring paragraph I just wrote!

[hedwig]

[QUOTE=VSS;10151518]

Too bad you weren't here an hour ago...
You could have spared everyone from the boring paragraph I just wrote!

I had a notion it might have been "Brief Candle" ... but it wasn't. However, in that episode, Sam is clearly aware of medically related things since she is the one that has checked various villagers while they are all sleeping and comments in more or less medical terminology that they all have shallow respiration and breathing and slow heartbeats, etc. She says the same thing about Jack when they find him right after the villagers fall asleep and he has gotten out of bed with Kynthia and is moving around (slowly) with a sheet wrapped around him. By itself, that's not a lot of proof, but it shows that she apparently has more medical information than the others do.

[leiasky]

Lol! Oh, I'm sure that's very true.
Although I could spend hours discussing a full-on love scene, believe me.

Oh, how I could be right there and joining you in that discussion! LOL!

God, I'm having a tough time keeping up with this thread!

I love the discussion about Solitudes. I liked the sidearm comment (it made me giggle) but the more interesting one, ship wise, is really when Jack admits that he'd find her laying on him quite nice in other circumstances. . . kinda reminds me of the comment about him commenting on that sweet little tank top at the end of Broca Divide.

And the poignantly sad one was when Sam answered him when he called for his ex- (are we sure at that point?) wife. It gets more intensely personal between the two of them in dire situations . . . They were supposed to kiss in Lost City but it was scapped for that very reason - someone didn't want it to happen because he was 'dying'.

[VSS]

Oh, how I could be right there and joining you in that discussion! LOL!

God, I'm having a tough time keeping up with this thread!

Well, the cure for that is just to spend more time here.

I love the discussion about Solitudes. I liked the sidearm comment (it made me giggle) but the more interesting one, ship wise, is really when Jack admits that he'd find her laying on him quite nice in other circumstances. . . kinda reminds me of the comment about him commenting on that sweet little tank top at the end of Broca Divide.

Oh, I agree. That's the part that's really sweet, and when it comes to Jack, that's saying a lot! Sweet is not a word I'd use to describe him 99% of the time.

And the poignantly sad one was when Sam answered him when he called for his ex- (are we sure at that point?) wife. It gets more intensely personal between the two of them in dire situations . . . They were supposed to kiss in Lost City but it was scapped for that very reason - someone didn't want it to happen because he was 'dying'.

Totally veering off on another topic (no, really!! ) I've had it up to here with the stuff they took out. I mean, it's all nice and everything that they had a kiss scripted in for BtS and for LC and an entire scene shot for Trio, and that they told us so, but that really doesn't cut it anymore.

/rant

[josiane]

OK, I guess I'd better deal with the burning question first... the bum in my sig is definitely Jack's As to why I have a sig that consists almost entirely of Jack's backside, well, blame the girls in the art thread for that

Now on to the shippy stuff

How do you think the conversation went down when it came to snuggling up? Was it just a case of only one blanket? Or did either one of them suggest it for warmth? In answer to Jack's query about what to say if they are found like that, Sam responds it was for warmth. Was there even a discussion or did Jack lie down, and Sam just lay next to him?

I love the sidearm comment, and when Jack tells Sam "no giggling."

I always got the strong impression that there was no conversation, that Jack was asleep already and Sam just curled up right next to him in order to keep both of them warm. Probably nothing to do with the amount of blankets - they are in an ice cave after all so it would make sense to combine the blankets and use body heat as well, especially considering Jack was injured and hadn't been able to keep his body temperature up like Sam with physical activity (minds out of the gutter people... ). But the way Jack comments on it and Sam explains about the warmth thing makes it sound to me as if Jack basically woke up to find her there.

I agree in general with what you're saying. For example, there are S/J shippers who love Descent. Try as I might I see no. ship. at. all. in that episode.

Now, having said that I also think that one can't just take a subtle scene in isolation and deduce whether it's shippy or not, and one certainly can't go by the dialogue alone. It has to be taken in the context of the history of both the relationship between the two characters and the show in general. For instance, if Ronon never said more than two or three words at a time, or was a self-centered geek, then I'd interpret that scene as shippy, because I would think it very unusual and needed an explanation. (I didn't watch much S5 of SGA so those are just theoretical points ).

On this, I agree completely, it's all about context. And, tbh, I think it's almost a slightly artificial distinction to try and classify moments between these two as shippy or not - the fact of the ship colours moments that might not otherwise be shippy, or could be perceived as friendship or team-building (agree with you on the dislike of that word, btw, especially as I was stuck in a management course all last week ). The 'shippy' part of Sam and Jack's relationship, ie, the romance/sexual tension, is all very mixed up with the 'friendshippy' part, IMO. In that, yes at this point it's not really about the UST or the desire to be together romantically, but their feelings develop over time. So I always think that when you're considering a moment or an interaction between them in terms of how it shows their developing relationship, whether that be more or less obviously related to the romantic/sexual feelings, it is shippy, by virtue of it contributing to the ship, if that makes sense

That's why on this rewatch I was a little surprised by the overtones in Solitudes. Does Jack usually make the kinds of comments that he made when they were literally sleeping together? No, he doesn't. I think I can count on one hand the number of sexually suggestive comments he's made to someone in ten seasons. Both hands for all suggestive comments. Now, if it were, say Jayne in Firefly I wouldn't give it another thought. He easily says that many in a single episode.

This is an interesting point, and as you say does go with the comment in Broca Divide. I think it's context again, and here is related with Jack's default defence mode of using humour to deflect. He's in an awful situation, he's afraid for himself, he's afraid for her, and really, what else is he going to joke about at that particular moment? Yes it's not really 'him', but it does perform the classic Jack MO of lightening an uncomfortable situation, and making Sam feel better at the same time - just like his comment in BD, exactly the same context.

Oh, absolutely. And just as important as these big scenes are a ton of little comments and bits of scenes, and a lot of people miss those, including me. For instance, who would think Jack calling Sam "Sam" means anything at all? Only if you know he never usually does it. He sells a house, his truck and a motorcycle in early season 9, only he doesn't own a motorcycle- but Sam does. Or why, in Continuum

Spoiler:

of all the poignant things they could have shown to illustrate how her life has been utterly destroyed in the AU timeline, they chose to show her buying fruit loops! That is a direct reference to Window of Opportunity.

That's why i love this ship. There's a level of detail involved in it that is really quite interesting, and that's why I'm running this rewatch.

And then there are things the directors do with these two that could be the subject of another thread- oh wait I think there is another thread like that. That's how the Martin Wood worship got started around here, IIRC.


See, that's the kind of thing I would have no interest in at all because there's no depth to the story. Sam and Jack have over ten years of history so they can develop it like it might have in RL. I'm not saying I don't believe in love at first sight, but it doesn't make for an interesting story. And maybe doesn't even make any sense!

True. I think if a person considers that comment in the Broca Divide to be shippy it's fair to think the one in Solitudes is. But making sexual jokes toward women isn't Jack's style, so you have to wonder why he does it here. That's the only point I was trying to make because I do think that Solitudes is about team-building (gah, I hate that phrase but here it really does apply. )

Really, that's the only way to assess a lot of these little shippy moments. Is what they do something they would do toward other team members? And is it something they would normally do at all? If the answer to either one of those is "no" then it's got to make you wonder. It's like being a forensic psychologist and it's fun.

But the only way a person can ever figure any of those things out is to really know the characters and pay attention. I got hooked on looking for the details after that little bit of a scene in Shades of Grey where we have Jack's eye view of the team coming out of the gate, it struck me as incredibly clever, not to mention incredibly cute, which not a phrase I use a whole lot.


That's pretty much how I feel about it.

Coela, I wanted to respond to your comments but I can't quote a quote. I still don't think Jack makes very many off-color remarks- it's just no one else on the entire show does so it stands out.

Uh, yeah, I think I already covered all the relevant bits above, but yes I agree with all of this completely

I completely agree with that last paragraph. I practice evidence-based shipping, myself.

What a great phrase And I agree, I do too. I'm quite a natural shipper, in that I do ship a lot in a lot of shows, but only ever 'canon' ships like this one. I can't get invested in a pairing if I don't see that the characters would get involved, because then it's OOC and just doesn't ring true, even if it might otherwise be nice (to borrow Jack's phrase ).

[Petra]

Spoiler:

Oh, I don't think American viewers necessarily feel that way, but we've all learned how to be PC especially on a forum like this. Let's just say that I don't get my news from cable TV- Mostly I read RealClearPolitics so i get where you're coming from.

Sorry I tend to be very cranky and forget about diplomacy when I'm sick.

This is news to me, also. But the dates line up as you say. Thanks for pointing that out. Although it makes me feel even worse for poor Jack!

Yeah, he doesn't have easy life. Add to that all the times he was injured/captured/tortured on the show and it's not a pleasant picture.

I'm not sure if they ever come right out and say it, but it's clear she's the medic. For one thing, if she weren't she wouldn't have the stuff to splint his leg in this episode. Those look like real emergency splints to me. I don't think anyone but the medic is going to carry that much stuff, plus some of her comments indicate medical training. Also, in Frozen she helps resuscitate Aiyana, and Frasier clearly knows Sam can do it, so she's had advanced cardiac life support training (ACLS) which is something only a medic is going to learn because it's really time-consuming. Finally, it's logical, as Aris Boch indicates in Dead Man Switch when we find out that Daniel definitely isn't the medic . She's military, and lower in rank than Jack, and has scientific training. They probably wouldn't have him be team leader and be the medic. In Heroes Jack is wounded before Janet, so naturally she goes to him first, although I think her initial response to his injury is not her medical background manifesting itself, that's for sure.

I think it's a very nice paragraph Thanks to you and Hedwig for explaining, it makes sense. I especially love this non-shippy explanation of why Sam went to Jack's side in Heroes. One more question though: I agree that TPTB didn't want Jack to be the CO and medic but it stands to reason that he also has some medical knowledge, doesn't it? I mean he was sent on very dangerous missions all by himself or with a very small team so he should be able to administer basic medical procedures. Or am I way off?

Totally veering off on another topic (no, really!! ) I've had it up to here with the stuff they took out. I mean, it's all nice and everything that they had a kiss scripted in for Metamorphosis and for LC and an entire scene shot for Trio, and that they told us so, but that really doesn't cut it anymore.

Kiss in Metamorphosis (I love this ep btw)? Really? That's the first time I hear about it; I've heard about the one in Beneath the Surface and LC (although I heard that they changed it when it turned out LC wouldn't be a feature movie). So did they scrapped because Sam was dying in this one?

[Aveo_amacus]

Totally veering off on another topic (no, really!! ) I've had it up to here with the stuff they took out. I mean, it's all nice and everything that they had a kiss scripted in for Metamorphosis and for LC and an entire scene shot for Trio, and that they told us so, but that really doesn't cut it anymore.
/rant

feel free to rant! I'm with you on this! Was it Metamorphosis or BtS? Or Both?

I thought Sam was a medic too, she also aids Janet in Allegiance and numerous other eps

OK, I guess I'd better deal with the burning question first... the bum in my sig is definitely Jack's As to why I have a sig that consists almost entirely of Jack's backside, well, blame the girls in the art thread for that

Hey!
I resent..
ok yeah

Now on to the shippy stuff

I always got the strong impression that there was no conversation, that Jack was asleep already and Sam just curled up right next to him in order to keep both of them warm. Probably nothing to do with the amount of blankets - they are in an ice cave after all so it would make sense to combine the blankets and use body heat as well, especially considering Jack was injured and hadn't been able to keep his body temperature up like Sam with physical activity (minds out of the gutter people... ). But the way Jack comments on it and Sam explains about the warmth thing makes it sound to me as if Jack basically woke up to find her there.

On this, I agree completely, it's all about context. And, tbh, I think it's almost a slightly artificial distinction to try and classify moments between these two as shippy or not - the fact of the ship colours moments that might not otherwise be shippy, or could be perceived as friendship or team-building (agree with you on the dislike of that word, btw, especially as I was stuck in a management course all last week ). The 'shippy' part of Sam and Jack's relationship, ie, the romance/sexual tension, is all very mixed up with the 'friendshippy' part, IMO. In that, yes at this point it's not really about the UST or the desire to be together romantically, but their feelings develop over time. So I always think that when you're considering a moment or an interaction between them in terms of how it shows their developing relationship, whether that be more or less obviously related to the romantic/sexual feelings, it is shippy, by virtue of it contributing to the ship, if that makes sense

Totally agree with you on both points here Twin. To repeat my metaphor from last week () it's all a sliding scale, there's no cut off that's suddenly "shippy" that's clearly different from "friendshippy" I mean correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard that there are people out there who are friends with their spouse/partner/Significant other it's not an either or situation.

What a great phrase And I agree, I do too. I'm quite a natural shipper, in that I do ship a lot in a lot of shows, but only ever 'canon' ships like this one. I can't get invested in a pairing if I don't see that the characters would get involved, because then it's OOC and just doesn't ring true, even if it might otherwise be nice (to borrow Jack's phrase ).

Yeah I agree with you on this too, I'll have one of those badges I'll ship a show if it's *real* but not for the sake of "who do you ship on this show". Like you say it has to be canon for me, its one of the reasons I could never get into ships on Atlantis (first 3 seasons) I could never tell who they were trying to ship John with so I gave up. No ships. But yeah, I'm a sucker for the *real* ones...

oh

[VSS]

OK, I guess I'd better deal with the burning question first... the bum in my sig is definitely Jack's

Lol for real! I just scared the cat.

On this, I agree completely, it's all about context. And, tbh, I think it's almost a slightly artificial distinction to try and classify moments between these two as shippy or not - the fact of the ship colours moments that might not otherwise be shippy, or could be perceived as friendship or team-building (agree with you on the dislike of that word, btw, especially as I was stuck in a management course all last week ). The 'shippy' part of Sam and Jack's relationship, ie, the romance/sexual tension, is all very mixed up with the 'friendshippy' part, IMO. In that, yes at this point it's not really about the UST or the desire to be together romantically, but their feelings develop over time. So I always think that when you're considering a moment or an interaction between them in terms of how it shows their developing relationship, whether that be more or less obviously related to the romantic/sexual feelings, it is shippy, by virtue of it contributing to the ship, if that makes sense

And that right there is why it's an utter waste of time (IMHO) to discuss any of this in a thread that is not pro-ship. Unless you have time to write a dissertation on the fine points of this relationship, it's all just lost in translation, and everyone has a different opinion.

What a great phrase .

I'd like to take credit for it but it comes from the term "evidence-based medicine". However, it does have a nice ring to it and it is apt so I think I'll keep it.

Sorry I tend to be very cranky and forget about diplomacy when I'm sick.

Don't apologize! I didn't mean to imply being PC was a good thing! At least not in this context.

One more question though: I agree that TPTB didn't want Jack to be the CO and medic but it stands to reason that he also has some medical knowledge, doesn't it? I mean he was sent on very dangerous missions all by himself or with a very small team so he should be able to administer basic medical procedures. Or am I way off?

Yes, I'm sure he has basic first aid training.

Kiss in Metamorphosis (I love this ep btw)? Really? That's the first time I hear about it; I've heard about the one in Beneath the Surface and LC (although I heard that they changed it when it turned out LC wouldn't be a feature movie). So did they scrapped because Sam was dying in this one?

Arggh! Wrong episode. I just remember the color orange and that they were all a bit scruffy and held against their will! it was BtS, sorry! I corrected my post.

[Petra]

Totally agree with you on both points here Twin. To repeat my metaphor from last week () it's all a sliding scale, there's no cut off that's suddenly "shippy" that's clearly different from "friendshippy" I mean correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard that there are people out there who are friends with their spouse/partner/Significant other it's not an either or situation.

Okay, as a shipper who sees "friendship" and "ship" moments maybe I should clarify. What I mean is, in the first 2 seasons neither one of them is even suspecting that they'll fall in love. They are just working on having a good friendship. And even when this friendship becomes something more - it still doesn't change (for me) their relations in the first 2 seasons.
Now, from season 3 onwards it gets a little more tricky, because while I see most of their scenes still as friendship, there are some shippy overtones to it. And the show rarely gives us an outright ship, like when Sam visits Jack in LC. This one I can't see as friendship no matter how I try

[josiane]

Lol for real! I just scared the cat.
And that right there is why it's an utter waste of time to discuss any of this in a thread that is not pro-ship. Unless you have time to write a dissertation on the fine points of this relationship, it's all just lost in translation.

Exactly But it does make investigating and analysing their relationship and character development (both individually and together) oh so fascinating.

I'd like to take credit for it but it comes from the term "evidence-based medicine". However, it does have a nice ring to it and it is apt so I think I'll keep it.

I think you should I've come across the term before - 'evidence-based librarianship' is all the rage in my profession at the moment too But it's definitely most apt for the shipping

[leiasky]

Well, the cure for that is just to spend more time here.

I know, I know! I just haven't had the time

Totally veering off on another topic (no, really!! ) I've had it up to here with the stuff they took out. I mean, it's all nice and everything that they had a kiss scripted in for BtS and for LC and an entire scene shot for Trio, and that they told us so, but that really doesn't cut it anymore.
/rant

I'm good with all the hints that lead us to assume they're involved but it is getting to the point where I would like it absolutely and undeniably confirmed.

OK, I guess I'd better deal with the burning question first... the bum in my sig is definitely Jack's As to why I have a sig that consists almost entirely of Jack's backside. . .

Why? Because its nice to look at!

I can't get invested in a pairing if I don't see that the characters would get involved, because then it's OOC and just doesn't ring true, even if it might otherwise be nice (to borrow Jack's phrase ).

Ditto for me. I have to see some hint of it on screen and BELIEVE it, for me to enjoy a particular pairing.

[VSS]

Okay, as a shipper who sees "friendship" and "ship" moments maybe I should clarify. What I mean is, in the first 2 seasons neither one of them is even suspecting that they'll fall in love. They are just working on having a good friendship. And even when this friendship becomes something more - it still doesn't change (for me) their relations in the first 2 seasons.
Now, from season 3 onwards it gets a little more tricky, because while I see most of their scenes still as friendship, there are some shippy overtones to it. And the show rarely gives us an outright ship, like when Sam visits Jack in LC. This one I can't see as friendship no matter how I try

While I think the first two seasons are all about becoming a team, and then becoming friends, what this rewatch has made evident to me is that Sam and Jack were attracted to each other right from the very start, and that it was intentional and not just due to the way the actors did their lines. That's what makes the ship realistic, IMHO. It doesn't jump right out like EvenstarSRV's example of Ronon and Amelia and take you by surprise. Personally, I'm very sad to have not been watching it from the start. Although, frankly, I don't think I'd be a shipper now if I had.

[hedwig]

Sorry I tend to be very cranky and forget about diplomacy when I'm sick.



Yeah, he doesn't have easy life. Add to that all the times he was injured/captured/tortured on the show and it's not a pleasant picture.



I think it's a very nice paragraph Thanks to you and Hedwig for explaining, it makes sense. I especially love this non-shippy explanation of why Sam went to Jack's side in Heroes. One more question though: I agree that TPTB didn't want Jack to be the CO and medic but it stands to reason that he also has some medical knowledge, doesn't it? I mean he was sent on very dangerous missions all by himself or with a very small team so he should be able to administer basic medical procedures. Or am I way off?



Kiss in Metamorphosis (I love this ep btw)? Really? That's the first time I hear about it; I've heard about the one in Beneath the Surface and LC (although I heard that they changed it when it turned out LC wouldn't be a feature movie). So did they scrapped because Sam was dying in this one?

I also especially like the bolded part ... more so because it would explain more rationally (aside from her personal concern for Jack) why she left her post ... which a lot of people find totally wrong for her to have done. They feel she should have stayed at her post no matter what. Apparently many people blame Sam for Janet having died, simply because Sam left her post to tend to Jack. It was never stated in that episode just what Sam's "job" was at that time, but many people think she was supposed to be covering Janet, Daniel and Wells. I don't see how, since she couldn't even see them from her position. And I'm pretty sure that she would have gone to the side of anybody else that had been injured (say Dixon or somebody else she was nearer to) to tend to them.

[Petra]

While I think the first two seasons are all about becoming a team, and then becoming friends, what this rewatch has made evident to me is that Sam and Jack were attracted to each other right from the very start, and that it was intentional and not just due to the way the actors did their lines. That's what makes the ship realistic, IMHO. It doesn't jump right out like EvenstarSRV's example of Ronon and Amelia and take you by surprise. Personally, I'm very sad to have not been watching it from the start. Although, frankly, I don't think I'd be a shipper now if I had.

oh, I agree they were attracted to each other - physically - right from the start, but IMO it was rather subconscious. Jack still thinks about Sara and Sam throws herself in her work, the dream of her life. I also agree that it was handled well and realistic in that they first started to rely on each other as teammates, then became friends and then became more than friends. It all happened gradually. But there's nothing wrong with them being *just* friends at the beginning.

for the bolded part: why? Sure it was frustrating, but also quite a fun