Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

One thing that bothers me is at the beginning of the episode. There's volcanic ash falling and no one covers their mouth or nose. If the ash gets into the lungs, it can mix with the moisture and turn into a cement like mess. Your lungs basically solidify and you die. Nothing big in the grand scheme of things, but it bothers me (however, when they come back with the survivors they do have masks)

Well, Narim's got to be able to see how beautiful Sam is- hence, no masks!

At the de-briefing Daniel points out that we'd be colonizing space right now if it wasn't for the dark ages. He mentions that on Earth, we experienced 800 years of time where science was considered heresy and comments that these people they rescued perhaps didn't have that setback. What do you think? Would we be further ahead?

I think Daniel needs to study his history better. The only thing that was heresy was a heliocentric viewpoint of the solar system. Science fell apart because Rome did, not because of Christianity. Some of the only remaining centers of learning left were monasteries (Gregor Mendel anyone?). Be that as it may, we would probably be very much further ahead, for better or for worse, were it not for the Dark Ages. Actually, we'd probably all be dead. We're lucky to have made it this far.

Wasn't someone keeping count of the times Sam and Jack sat together at in the briefing room? I'm curious as to how many times Daniel is seen carrying a coffee mug, or mentionning coffee. Just curious if that is a fanon thing, or if it's canon.

They're together twice in this ep, I think. And I did notice the coffee- surprised to see he's still doing it. The time before was in the pilot, and the last time was in TEW, so I think it's definitely canon.

Hammond knows that these people could be potential allies, but is it the suggestion made by Daniel that these people could be 800 years more advanced that us that is propelling his decisions?

I think they're the first possible allies to come here, aren't they? If not that, then they do seem like they aren't hostile, and perhaps that alone is enough. Like Jack says in this episode "You're a good man, General." Maybe he's just trying to be nice. Or even show off a little- after all, it's a pretty nice world we have.

The conversation is turned when Narim discovers birds. He asks about other animals, saying there has been none on Tollan for generations.

This to me is a very important point. Do you think this is because the planet is deteriorating or because they did it to themselves. I think it;s the latter, because the problems with the nearby planet- Sharita- seem more recent. If so, it shows the Tollan are really no better than us. They damaged their world irreparably. We haven't quite done that, yet.

Spoiler:

There's a theory called the Great Filter that explains why we haven't found intelligent life out there yet- it states that there's something that filters out intelligent life- either the "life" part- meaning it's exceedingly difficult for life of any kind to take root; or the "intelligent" part meaning that life relatively easily starts up but as soon as races become advanced enough, they kill themselves off. I tend to believe in the former theory, in a way, it's less depressing. Plus, there's no evidence for any kind of life out there at all, yet.

science stuff:

Spoiler:

Though recently I read an article talking about how there's particles of light/energy that may travel faster than the speed of light

Muons!?

Walter shows images of the Tollan walking through walls, and Colonel Maybourne walks, announcing he's from NID. Jack asks about Kennedy so he has previous experience with the NID? Maybourne also comments that he has read reports on Jack.

Kennedy was in TEW, but I don't believe his organization was called the NID at the time. Frankly, he was less of an a** than Maybourne.

[Coela Bellatore]

I was hoping you'd pop up.
It seems to me that the repercussions of taking Teal'c back would be small compared to his value to earth. This is a little agrarian society with nothing we want or need and no way to hurt the people of earth. Furthermore, who's right and who's wrong is all a matter of perspective in this episode- and while Teal'c is a war criminal to those people, he's a valuable military asset to us.

As Jack said, it might have been possible to spring him without anyone getting hurt given our superior technology. So why did they write it the way they did?

The taking of any of our military personnel or those of our allies is a hostile act. We mostly have the kidnappings under control but back before I came here (2002-2006) there were so many kidnappings that there was a special unit used to hunt down HVT and rescue hostages. It was called Task Force Black, and you can look up on Wikipedia (probably the best site for these things) how relatively few people ended up dead (hostages that is). After they realized what Cor-Ai was, I don't get why Jack just didn't shoot his MP5 into the air, it would have scared the crap out of them and they could have left. It wasn't like Teal'C was going to get a fair trial.

As for Enigma, I think there is one very, very obvious thing here that pertains to ship: Sam is terrible with guys! Narim is totally cheesy and obviously flirting but Sam falls for him like he is the only man on earth. Come on! He thinks your dumb, there is no doubt about that, to him your like a ditzy airhead blond. I can't imagine that Sam wants to feel that way. While I have never gone on 1-1 dates, I did go through college (it wasn't exactly a party school though) and I do know that any girl with some self esteem would have seen what Narim was doing, he was so damn contrived and patronizing. This ties into my first super depressing post about Sam's history with men. Maybe there could have been a relationship with Jack but Sam just didn't know how to go about it.

[VSS]

The taking of any of our military personnel or those of our allies is a hostile act. We mostly have the kidnappings under control but back before I came here (2002-2006) there were so many kidnappings that there was a special unit used to hunt down HVT and rescue hostages. It was called Task Force Black, and you can look up on Wikipedia (probably the best site for these things) how relatively few people ended up dead (hostages that is). After they realized what Cor-Ai was, I don't get why Jack just didn't shoot his MP5 into the air, it would have scared the crap out of them and they could have left. It wasn't like Teal'C was going to get a fair trial.

I think Jack would have been more than happy to do just that but Teal'c wouldn't go. That complicated matters and set into motion the Cor-ai. What if you have a hostage who doesn't want to be rescued?

As for Enigma, I think there is one very, very obvious thing here that pertains to ship: Sam is terrible with guys! Narim is totally cheesy and obviously flirting but Sam falls for him like he is the only man on earth. Come on! He thinks your dumb, there is no doubt about that, to him your like a ditzy airhead blond. I can't imagine that Sam wants to feel that way. While I have never gone on 1-1 dates, I did go through college (it wasn't exactly a party school though) and I do know that any girl with some self esteem would have seen what Narim was doing, he was so damn contrived and patronizing. This ties into my first super depressing post about Sam's history with men. Maybe there could have been a relationship with Jack but Sam just didn't know how to go about it.

I didn't post on Narim in my first post because I needed to think about this a little. I'm not sure that Sam really cares about Narim all that much- she's ready to write him off until he gives her that little emotion recorder. But his emotions were genuine- the recorder proved that much. I think that Sam's basically a compassionate person who tends to wear her heart on her sleeve and I agree she acts like she hasn't much experience with men. I think it's these two things together that cause Jack to essentially make her come to him in the end. I've always thought he was being a bit thickheaded at best and downright mean at worst, but now i think he was perhaps being a little cautious as well.

[Coela Bellatore]

until he gives her that little emotion recorder

He says its an emotional recorder, I think it just released a massive amount of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine into her system. Chemical love cocktails work better in an advanced society than actually being able to share your emotions, do did the Tollan really seem like they liked to share their feelings with people?

[VSS]

He says its an emotional recorder, I think it just released a massive amount of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine into her system. Chemical love cocktails work better in an advanced society than actually being able to share your emotions, do did the Tollan really seem like they liked to share their feelings with people?

Lol. Probably a little oxytocin, too!

Maybe they had to have this method of sharing emotions because they were otherwise pretty poor at it?

[Coela Bellatore]

I don't know but doubtless I think that his intentions were far from sincere. She was inferior to him in his mind no matter what he felt for her and Sam should have known this.

[Aveo_amacus]

I'd never questioned the validity of the emotional recorder, so had always though that Narim was sincere (although the real depth and longevity is debateable), but he also very literally projected his thoughts on to her! tbh it does seem as though Sam kissed him more because of his feelings than anything she was feeling even just that she was flattered by his attentions

[Coela Bellatore]

I'd never questioned the validity of the emotional recorder, so had always though that Narim was sincere (although the real depth and longevity is debateable), but he also very literally projected his thoughts on to her! tbh it does seem as though Sam kissed him more because of his feelings than anything she was feeling even just that she was flattered by his attentions

Yeah, I don't think Sam has ever felt that way before, whether it was her own emotions or not. She sort of acted like the freshman girl in collage who had low self esteem but is hot and totally thinks the guys are super nice and sweet when all they want is S-E-X.

On an off topic note, what do you think of the new sig?

[Petra]

So sorry for coming back to this, I promise I'll be quick...

I thought about that, too, but since it didn't fit my theory, I disregarded it. Actually, if it really made the men libidinous in a general way, then wouldn't all the men (including Jack, Daniel and George) have been influenced by Sam just as much as they were influenced by Hathor? But, they weren't. They clearly were under Hathor's spell. That "women in prison" scene actually doesn't fit, so I think of it as the men sort of settling for second best- female, but not Hathor.

I don't think so. I never got the impression guys were so susceptible to Hathor because of their libido. IIRC Janet clearly said Hathor was using some kind of drug/mind control and I guess libido was only a side-effect of it. Which would explain why the guys were eager to get laid with any woman but took orders from Hathor only. So I think it's the plothole in the sense that while Jack wouldn't listen/take into consideration Sam's warnings, his physical atrraction to her should have been blatantly obvious.

I agree. As I mentioned earlier, Sam and Jack actually have a great deal in common, too. More than a lot of happy couples. The one thing I do think is true is that this friendship of theirs seems very strained after season 4- I don't think it ever really comes back, although we saw hints of it in The Shroud and Continuum when they seemed relaxed around each other- for other reasons, of course. That's one of the reasons why I'd like to see some on-screen confirmation, because otherwise it would be sad from a friendship angle, not just from a romantic one.

I think even post-season 4 there are some glimpses of their friendship. On the Team Thread we are just reviewing Lost City nad personally I see the whole "crossword challenge" as the comfortable friendship. And the lunch they had together in season 5 "Proving Ground" was also very friendly and relaxed.

[Petra]

Cor-Ai

I like this ep and I'm really happy there are people who like it too. I always got the impression it was quite disliked in the fandom.

I think it's a great team and Teal'c episode, not much ship in it though. But I love the scene when Jack argues with Hammond; apart from giving us a little snippet of information about Jack it also has some shippy repercussions, IMO. I believe we established that Sam came to the program with a case of hero-worship and here she hears for the first time, from Jack himself, that he wasn't always so honourable, didn't always do the right thing and commited some real atrocities. Hearing it had to change her perception of him at least a little.

Enigma

I'm kinda "meh" about it. I love Nox reappearance, I love introduction of Maybourne, and the teaminess and Hammond, but somehow I could never warm up to the Tollans and wasn't particularly sad when they were killed off.

I also wasn't a big fan of Narim. I don't think he's creepy or a stalker like some fans do, but IMO he's incredibly dull and boring. I just can't see him with Sam.

I think she's very flattered by his attention/feelings and maybe a little attracted to him - she seems to go for either charismatic guys with sense of humour or the quiet ones with brilliant minds and Narim falls into the latter category. But I think a few days Tollans spent on Earth wasn't enough time for her to develop some serious feelings and anyway they won't see each other for the next 2 years. And when they do Sam is pleased, but it's not a "I missed you terribly because I had feelings for you" kind of happiness.

So while I think Narim's feelings were sincere, all I saw on Sam's part was attraction and fascination on the intellectual level. Nothing more. I certainly don't see them having any relationship, as some fans insist they had.

[josiane]

I'd never questioned the validity of the emotional recorder, so had always though that Narim was sincere (although the real depth and longevity is debateable), but he also very literally projected his thoughts on to her! tbh it does seem as though Sam kissed him more because of his feelings than anything she was feeling even just that she was flattered by his attentions

This is the thing that stays with me, that Narim is actually the first in what is to become quite a long line of guys pushing their feelings onto Sam in an attempt to make her feel for them. Martouf did it via Jolinar, and Orlin with the glowy thing. You could even kind of argue that Pete showed signs of it in Threads, with the house and the dog and everything - like they're so in love with her that they don't stop to think about whether it's actually reciprocated. I agree with VSS though that it's because Sam is so compassionate that she is affected by these things, but really, can't these aliens give her a break?!

[KatG]

Corai -

not much to say on this one. Not one of my favorites. I didn't hate it, just not one I choose to rewatch often.

Enigma

I don't think Sam was in love with Narim. I think she found him fascinating, and more approachable than the rest of the Tollan. Even though he considered her "primitive" or "less advanced" he did realize that she has a brilliant mind, and appreciated her ability to understand complex physics. Probably quite exhilarating to Sam, someone to bounce ideas off of. That, on top of the emotional recorder, probably influenced her feelings in the moment, and when he kissed her she responded.

But their later interactions show that while Sam may have been intrigued by Narim, and views him as a friend, there's not really any romantic feelings on her part.

[VSS]

I think I agree with the idea that Sam looks at Narim as just a nice guy, is a little flattered by all the attention, but ultimately doesn't really have deep romantic feelings for him at all. Nor does she really seem to want to, as we find out in Pretense.

This is the thing that stays with me, that Narim is actually the first in what is to become quite a long line of guys pushing their feelings onto Sam in an attempt to make her feel for them. Martouf did it via Jolinar, and Orlin with the glowy thing. You could even kind of argue that Pete showed signs of it in Threads, with the house and the dog and everything - like they're so in love with her that they don't stop to think about whether it's actually reciprocated. I agree with VSS though that it's because Sam is so compassionate that she is affected by these things, but really, can't these aliens give her a break?!

That's an interesting point! It seems like all the team members have this happen to them except Teal'c who is less susceptible to alien influences in the first place. Perhaps that's a fantasy that people have- being under the spell of an attractive alien which is a theme that pops up in all kinds of legends, like mermaids for example. In the case of SG-1, did they make it that way so that our heroes are seen to be otherwise invulnerable to the charms of the locals, i.e. tough, work-minded people who aren't swayed by emotion? Or is it just too tough to write? I kind of liked Martouf, myself. That could have been an interesting story arc and they could have avoided the potatohead altogether if they'd played it right. For Sam, I would choose any one of her alien beaus over Pete- with the single exception of that loser, Aden Corso.

I even read somewhere that there's an explanation why people often are attracted to people who are physically quite different (hence the positive connotations of the word "exotic")- it's programmed in so that we naturally want to diversify the gene pool. You can't get much more diverse than partnering up with a human from another planet!

[Coela Bellatore]

You can't get much more diverse than partnering up with a human from another planet!

Except for the fact that your children would most likely be sterile.



And nobody likes my new sig

[VSS]

Except for the fact that your children would most likely be sterile.

No, they wouldn't. The divergence of genetic lines is greater between Native Americans and caucasians than between humans of other planets and the Tau'ri.

We're all the same species.