Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[IamDKScully]

Ooh...government conspiracy...how very X-file-ish!

[hlndncr]

Wow, am I behind on my rewatch. Thankfully, I have some time off work now to get caught up.

So I left off at Divide and Conquer.

I'm going to commit shipper heresy now and say that this is not one of my favorite episodes. Yes, I love the shippy parts and Jack's confession, but there's way too much Freya and Martouff in this one for me to really enjoy it. And while we get some actual proof of Sam and Jack's feelings for one another we also have to sit through Freya kissing Jack . . . TWICE. Ick!!!!!! I'm so glad she went away after this episode. And while I was somewhat sad to see Marty go (I thought he was an interesting character) he did seem a little creepy at times.

I will say that I love how they weaved together scenes from Upgrades and then added to it. It was subtle and interesting. The two episodes were shot at the same time so it all went together seamlessly. I loved getting a fuller view of what really happened on that ship and I thought it was really clever the way it gave the show great continuity and richness.

{Snipped by Moderator}

Just some thoughts and observations from my own viewing:

In the US, treaties with foreign governments (and I think an extraterrestrial race would count) have to be ratified by a 2/3 vote of the Senate. And of course there is no world governing body so the President's signature means absolutely nothing as it relates to any other world powers. So the Earth/Tok'ra treaty was of no actual force or effect and hardly worth the paper it was printed on. Something to consider when tempted to fault the Tok'ra for own machinations to skirt it's provisions.

The za'tarc idea was kind of stupid IMO. Near instantaneous brainwashing with no means of detection . . . really?! No wonder it never really came up again. And Freya's ridiculous statement that it is difficult to prove because of the lack of evidence is a mere tautology. Beyond religious faith, everything is unproven in the absence of evidence!

Jack's absolute distrust and despise for the Tok'ra comes through loud and clear here with such statements as "They're at it again." "Oh . . . you." "This . . . woman." That's only going to get worse with time and experience. It's really quite amazing he and Jacob get along considering Jack's ever increasing disdain. But I guess those two have a common foundation as AF officers, and they both love Sam of course.

It was kind of fun to see another team in action. I like Aster's statement that she thought her team was "just that good." It shows that SG-1 may be the premiere team of the SGC, but all of the teams really are exemplary in their respective fields to be part of this very select group.

Freya/Anise seem to be much more conflicted than other Tok'ra. Marty told Sam that host and symbiote love as one, but F/A don't seem to follow that mantra.

I agree with Jack that Freya's come on was all kinds of wrong. He clearly showed no interest in her; although she may have gotten her signals mixed when Jack said he liked Freya better than Anise in the last episode. She is very pushy and selfish to throw herself at Jack at such a time and in such a way. The way Jack pushes her away and sends her off certainly says he has no interest in her, but also not a whole lot of respect either.

Sam also doesn't put much faith in F/A's opinions and ideas. She shows some real disdain for the whole thing when talking with Marty about the procedure to reverse the programing. If only she knew F/A was putting the moves on her man!

Daniel also doesn't seem to be too flattered by Anise's supposed interest in him.

Sam & Jack
Obviously this whole episode is permeated with shippiness. I'd just like to point to a couple of maybe the less talked about shippy parts.

I love that right after Jack is declared a za'tarc he goes to Sam. During that discussion in Sam's room/cell, he actually admits his vulnerability and fear to her. I think that's a very big tell for how far Jack really has fallen for Sam. He doesn't prevaricate or wise crack; he's very open with her. He trusts her.

We see that absolute trust again when Jack is asked to undergo the anti-za'trac procedure. His first question is, "What's Carter say?" Her judgment matters. And of course his choice is really all about saving her.

Jack is a man of action and he wants to be in control. Both on the ship and as a supposed za'tarc he is seemingly left without any good options. He default choice is save Sam if he can, die for her if he must. So he chooses to stay at the force field and he choose the procedure. And in each case, Sam is just as adamant she does not want Jack to die for her.

We often focus on Jack's confession, "I'd rather die myself than lose Carter." But he says something before that I think is worth pointing out. He is asked how he felt as he stood at the force field looking at Sam with Jaffa coming around the corner poised to kill her. He is in no immediate danger at that point but he says he felt "like someone who was about to die." Perhaps worse than losing Sam would be watching Sam die right in front of him, helpless to do anything. That would have destroyed him.

Obviously, I could go on and on about this episode. I don't even want to get started about what the whole leaving it in the room meant. So I'll just say good enough for now.

Not my favorite episode, but certainly many of the best insights into the ship, especially from Jack's POV, which is something we don't get very often. So definitely worth the price of admission.

[hlndncr]

Moving on.

How can you criticize Window of Opportunity? It is a near perfect episode. It has humor, heart, great pacing, interesting story. What's amazing is this was only the second episode by Paul Mullie and Joe Mallozzi. They just had the characters and the tone of the show down. No wonder they were brought on to the regular writing staff after their first freelance script (Scorched Earth - also a very good ep IMO).

What I love about this episode is that every bit of it is absolutely spot on. Everyone has great comic timing, even the little things like Teal'c taking the thermometer out of his mouth again and again in the background in the infirmary scenes, and Jack's frequent "bad example." But even the abrupt switch to the dramatic and poignant at the end was brilliantly done. It could have been clumsy and out of place, but it felt natural and organic. Jack's empathizing with Malachi's pain and loss was very sincere and heart felt.

The music was delightful. I love it when they just let Joel Goldsmith loose on an episode. He shows such a deft touch for capturing the spirit of an episode. The score in this one has a repetitive quality to it that is filled with both subtle frustration and unrestrained mischief.

All the gags and bits came in because the episode was running short. Normally you have to take time setting up a scene and having characters come and go, but in this ep you don't have that after the first time through. So RDA suggested juggling. BW had long wanted an excuse to hit a golf ball through the stargate. The kiss was Paul Mullie's idea (Thank you, Paul!). I do want to know where they came up with Jack doing pottery. That was truly random.

A couple of other little tidbits: No one knows what Daniel's question was. It was never written. The fruitloops on Jack's spoon were glued together so they would be exactly the same each time. Jack resigning before he kissed Sam was at the request of the AF.

Sam & Jack

I love how happy and flirty they are with each other. And Jack even demonstrates that he actually does listen to Sam's technobabble with the magnets, time inversion bubbles and solar radiation. He doesn't always repeat it back correctly, but he was listening.

The WoO kiss is awesome. It's such an over the top romantic gesture. Compared with Sam's idea of a forbidden kiss, which is pretty steamy. Of course, I think Jack's smirk at the end may suggest a few additional kisses that we didn't see.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Moving on.

How can you criticize Window of Opportunity? It is a near perfect episode. It has humor, heart, great pacing, interesting story. What's amazing is this was only the second episode by Paul Mullie and Joe Mallozzi. They just had the characters and the tone of the show down. No wonder they were brought on to the regular writing staff after their first freelance script (Scorched Earth - also a very good ep IMO).

What I love about this episode is that every bit of it is absolutely spot on. Everyone has great comic timing, even the little things like Teal'c taking the thermometer out of his mouth again and again in the background in the infirmary scenes, and Jack's frequent "bad example." But even the abrupt switch to the dramatic and poignant at the end was brilliantly done. It could have been clumsy and out of place, but it felt natural and organic. Jack's empathizing with Malachi's pain and loss was very sincere and heart felt.

The music was delightful. I love it when they just let Joel Goldsmith loose on an episode. He shows such a deft touch for capturing the spirit of an episode. The score in this one has a repetitive quality to it that is filled with both subtle frustration and unrestrained mischief.

All the gags and bits came in because the episode was running short. Normally you have to take time setting up a scene and having characters come and go, but in this ep you don't have that after the first time through. So RDA suggested juggling. BW had long wanted an excuse to hit a golf ball through the stargate. The kiss was Paul Mullie's idea (Thank you, Paul!). I do want to know where they came up with Jack doing pottery. That was truly random.

A couple of other little tidbits: No one knows what Daniel's question was. It was never written. The fruitloops on Jack's spoon were glued together so they would be exactly the same each time. Jack resigning before he kissed Sam was at the request of the AF.

Sam & Jack

I love how happy and flirty they are with each other. And Jack even demonstrates that he actually does listen to Sam's technobabble with the magnets, time inversion bubbles and solar radiation. He doesn't always repeat it back correctly, but he was listening.

The WoO kiss is awesome. It's such an over the top romantic gesture. Compared with Sam's idea of a forbidden kiss, which is pretty steamy. Of course, I think Jack's smirk at the end may suggest a few additional kisses that we didn't see.

My favorite part is the dip kiss!

[hedwig]

I find it quite interesting that this episode comes right after Divide & Conquer. One would think they'd be a bit cautious around each other after their admissions in the previous episode. But they are all but flirting in several scenes, and then there's the kissing scene (even if only Jack remembers it), and there are several "looks" between them.

Maybe these episodes weren't originally supposed to be right next to each other?

[hlndncr]

I think Watergate is an OK episode. It's one of those middle of the road ones for me. It's not bad, but not that memorable or significant either.

It does establish Mayborne as a traitor by selling secrets to the Russians. This will come up again and again. And we do get the Russians participating more in the stargate program after this because they now have the second gate.

But this episode itself is never really referenced again and overall, I can't help feeling like we saw the least interesting part of the story. We never explore or learn anything about this planet that's covered with water that is not just water or the creatures who inhabit it. We don't know anything about these ancient ruins that must have belonged to a different civilization or how a gate would have been put on this planet in the first place. We arrive at the Russian base after all the excitement is over and everyone is dead.

The most clever thing about this episode for me is the veiled reference at the beginning of the ep to the Enkarans who we meet later on in Scorched Earth. I thought it was very clever to have SG1 going out on what we presume is just a routine mission to some random planet and then a couple of eps later we get to see what that mission was really all about. Great continuity there. While SG-1 are rescuing Daniel in the next episode, other teams are transplanting the Enkarans to this planet they presumably checked out after getting back from Russia. It makes the whole thing seem more real and we get this feeling there's a lot more going on at the SGC than we ever actually see.

Now as for the episode itself, it just all felt off to me.

So we start off learning that Jack really hates Russians. This is somewhat understandable given his black ops history during the Cold War. He is rather ambivalent about Markov at first; he seems to give her a bit of a break because she admires Sam's work. That would score you points with Jack. But we do see them tweak each other a bit. Her with the English isn't hard to learn bit and him with the I've never been on a submarine when they clearly both know that's not true.

Where this ep goes off the rails for me was with Daniel's behavior in the sub. It would have been far more understandable if it have been Jack and Daniel on the sub. Sam is superfluous there and would have been better utilized to investigate what went wrong at the Russian base. It also would have given the Jack lines to Jack and better meshed with the friendly antagonism already set up between Jack and Markov.

Daniel doesn't sound at all like Daniel and his line that he has been spending too much time with Jack doesn't really fix the flaws in the writing. I was initially surprised to see that RCC wrote this episode. It plays like a new writer who doesn't really know the characters at all. But then I thought about RCC's longstanding ambition to turn Daniel into a Jack O'Neill like wise @$$ (something he finally succeeds in doing after RDA leaves) and it's not so much a surprise to me anymore.

While I think the story in this episode is weak, it would have been better if the character portrayal were not so deeply flawed.

On the technical side, the plane scenes were shot in a real C105 cargo plane operated by the Coast Guard. They actually took the plane up, so it's not stock footage for those shots. The water effect was done using a giant tank of glycerin and Alka-Seltzer.

[hlndncr]

I find it quite interesting that this episode comes right after Divide & Conquer. One would think they'd be a bit cautious around each other after their admissions in the previous episode. But they are all but flirting in several scenes, and then there's the kissing scene (even if only Jack remembers it), and there are several "looks" between them.

Maybe these episodes weren't originally supposed to be right next to each other?

I think WoO was supposed to come a couple of episodes later. JM and PM wrote Scorched Earth first.

But it seems almost like a weight has been lifted off their shoulders. It's no longer this deeply buried unspoken secret. So while they know they can't or wouldn't act on it, there's this level of relief and comfort that let's them be more free around each other again - more like the early days.

[hlndncr]

I've already said my peace on The First Ones. I just don't like that episode.

So moving on to Scorched Earth:

This episode does a great job of presenting a moral dilemma with demonstrated sympathies for both sides. Both Jack and Daniel are acting ethically as they see it and each has an argument for the choices they make. I think it's a good episode with an interesting sci-fi premise that has at its heart a very universal human lesson about preserving and protecting life and the potential for life. Looked at in this light it can have many deep and profound meanings.

I also like the interaction among the team. I'm not a big fan of Jack and Daniel at odds because I think it is often trite and overdone. But here I think it's handled well. I don't read any personal animosity between them just a difference of opinion on how to approach an impossible situation. There ultimate goals are essentially the same. I think both wish to save both civilizations, Daniel's just more optimistic about finding a way to do so. Jack, being the military strategist that he is understandable makes a choice to cut losses. He also shows a really passion for saving the Enkarans who he has come to know and admire. That is very unusual for a man who generally maintains a rather cool detachment.

I do feel bad for Sam who gets caught in the middle. She has to choose between following orders or following her heart. It was very unfair of Jack to put her in a position where her actions might actually kill Daniel. But she while she voices her disagreement with Jack's methods I don't think she's fully opposed to his reasoning.

I love Martin Wood's description of the scene between Sam and Jack coming off of the boat:

Fun fact: A bear came lumbering out of the woods just as they started filming the scene with Daniel and Lotan walking along the forest path. That's why they are sort of nervously glancing over their shoulders the whole time. Apparently, CJ ran and hid in his trailer and refused to come out.

Not much directly shippy, a solid trust and openness between Jack and Sam that is evident throughout the ep.

[AmberLM]

Haha, I'd run if I saw a bear too! (Actually after spending an "evening with Ray Mears" the other night at his show I now know exactly what to do if I see a bear - don't look it in the eye and turn my back on it apparently - unless it's a polar bear in which case it'll eat me whatever I do! )

[hedwig]

Haha, I'd run if I saw a bear too! (Actually after spending an "evening with Ray Mears" the other night at his show I now know exactly what to do if I see a bear - don't look it in the eye and turn my back on it apparently - unless it's a polar bear in which case it'll eat me whatever I do! )

And if you see a baby bear - DO.NOT.TOUCH. Mama bear may be nearby ...

[fems]

I don't have any experience with bears, but I'm not sure how safe a trailer would be if one were inclined to attack...

[Wild Flower]

Haha, I'd run if I saw a bear too! (Actually after spending an "evening with Ray Mears" the other night at his show I now know exactly what to do if I see a bear - don't look it in the eye and turn my back on it apparently - unless it's a polar bear in which case it'll eat me whatever I do! )

The runners around Vancouver all have bells on them to ward off bears and stop these kinds of things happening!

[hlndncr]

Aw Beneath the Surface. Love this episode!

nei gave a very thorough and in depth review. I'm just going to respond to a few of the points she made. It was a very interesting analysis, but there were just some things she said that I did not agree with and others that deserve an Amen.

In Beneath the Surface, Calder and his people were willing to sacrifice the workers human rights to keep the city powered, in the same vein the workers were happy to make the sacrifice of family, comfort and personal space in order to keep their people alive. They didn’t complain, in fact, it was their honour to serve – how much of that was integrated with the mind-stamp is anyone’s guess – and they were genuine and devoted to that cause.

Calder was also happy to sacrifice SG1 to keep knowledge of the workers quiet – suggesting he, in fact, questioned his own morality and saw the wrongs in what they were doing. This is a complete contrast to the way he defends his position to Brenna – is he trying to convince himself just as much her?

I think the workers have been brainwashed or the mind stamp has been used to make the docile and impress upon them the need to serve in order to preserve their world. I don't think Calder ever once questions his morality or his decisions. He feels a sense of superiority to all his people, but especially toward the workers. It reminds me somewhat of the slave holders in the American south. There is a sense of rightness in the order of things. The workers are where they belong and they are happy there to Calder's mind, and society in the city is clean, peaceful and well ordered. They are superior beings and workers' depravity is contained and channeled. I don't think Calder has any problem with this. He likes it that way. He think SG-1 are officious interlopers who get what they deserve for interfering in and judging their society's ingrained institutions and cherished way of life.

The first scene with Daniel and Kegan, discussing a previous sufferer of night-sickness and the skylight seems a little clumsy in comparison to the other ways the writer uses exposition and shares information. I almost have to wonder if it came from a network note because it doesn’t seem to fit creatively.

Expositional scenes are often a little clumsy, but I don't think that one was so bad. It also importantly highlighted the skylight. If the man who was night sick had succeeded in knocking out the skylight the workers would have discovered the truth about the city above rather than died from exposure as they believed. The episode then climaxes with Jack shooting out that same skylight and letting the light and the truth into that dark underground world for the first time. So I don't think that scene was a network note, but a critical part of the story.

Night- sickness and the minutiae of mind-stamps

I believe Daniel, Jack and Sam are ‘night-sick’, I believe the term was fashioned by Calder or his predecessors to describe those who are starting to remember their lives before they became workers. It is never specified who the workers are but from Calder’s line ‘our city has no crime’ it would make sense that becoming a worker is their version of capital punishment or a prison sentence.

I’ve seen a fair few fics that suggest a pregnancy would be frowned upon and terminated. I would think this would create more suspicion, if the workers were not allowed to reproduce then there would be no way to continue their line – or appear to continue their line. It would bring up the question of where the workers come from. I would think a number of them would be allowed to bear their children, either to keep up the pretense or to increase the number of workers. Jack’s statement that the workers had been lied to ‘all their lives’ also suggests that at least some of them were born in the workers underground networks.

Also the notion of being ‘transferred from the mine’ seems to be both a cover and a truth. There must actually be a mine because workers shovel the ore into the furnaces, and obviously, it must come from somewhere. It’s possible that the idea of the mine is an integral part of the mind-stamp, and that other ‘areas’ exist, a place for the children until they come of age perhaps, either as part of the memory stamp or in reality.

It's possible some of the people who became workers were criminals, but I think for the most part they were just the lower classes. The mind stamp would have been used to erase memories of life before the ice age so they didn't know about another society living it up off of their work.

I think there must have been some form of population control. They would want to maintain a fairly static number of workers, enough to produce the needed energy but not enough that they became over crowded or presented the possibility of the surface dwellers loosing control.

Since the lie the workers are living is that they have just enough to get by if everyone puts in their full effort I think most would willingly accept and go a long with limits on reproduction. People don't appear to live in family units and again it seems similar to the slave populations of the early nineteenth century who were treated as breeding stock and were not permitted permanent family units.

As for the mines, this suggests a hierarchy even below ground. Working in the power plant would be more desirable than working in the mines. Or perhaps the workers are regularly rotated through different jobs and locations to keep them from forming attachments that could lead to unrest and rebellion. So saying SG-1 transferred from the mines was just a convenient and plausible backstory to introduce these new people into the plant.

In this episode Daniel makes another female friend, Kegan. Right from the start she has a problem with Sam, its not clear exactly what the issue is. The way she tries to stop Daniel talking to her and her almost religious belief in the system could give the impression she is somehow in on it. In fact, her actions were all out of jealousy over Sam.

Daniel and his alien romances. He does know how to pick 'em. I don't think Kegan was in on it. I'm pretty certain she was just raised to it. I think most of the workers did believe what they were told and there lives were made bearable by believing they were doing what was necessary to preserve their people. It gave them noble purpose in the face of hardship. I do think Kegan was jealous of Sam, but not over Daniel. I think she was jealous of Sam's intellect and influence.

Kegan says to Daniel that Jonah and There think they are better than us. I think that was her reacting to Sam and Jack's confidence in their own knowledge and abilities. It was probably some of their military training that came through despite the mind stamp. Sam clearly made a impact as a new comer with her knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of the plant. This could seem threatening to the status quo for someone like Kegan who clearly has been around much longer.

Also, when Calder enters Brenna’s quarters Sam is the only one not to fight. I find it odd that her response is to hang back and then attend to Brenna, when her military training should make her more likely to fight than Daniel. It could be her field medical training showing through, a logical decision to let the others fight and protect the wounded.

I didn't notice that. But I think it was mostly Jack and Teal'c who fought off the bad guys, and Sam was at the far side of the room; so she just may not have had anyone to take on from that position.

I thought the dream sequences were especially clever. The use of the workers costumes and the BDU’s at different times was poignant. Daniel, as the first dreamer, finds himself, as a worker, torn between Keegan and Jack, a personification of his life as Carlin trying to pull him back and keep him in his illusory world.

Jack finds himself in the tower room, first in his workers uniform and then in his BDU’s. The clothing, clarity of the location and the comprehension of the dream improve as SG1 glean more information about their circumstances. Those details enhanced the viewing experience and enriched the texture of the story.

That change where Jack goes from the orange PJs to black BDU's was RDA's idea. It cost a lot of money, but I think he was right to push for it. It looked cool and did enhance the scene.

Sam arguing with Brenna – both times – about her improvements. It shows the fierce, self-confident, defiant scientist she keeps hidden inside, just bubbling at the surface.

Agree. I like seeing Sam untethered from rigid military discipline, but still very much controlled and methodical.

The original script for this episode included moments suggesting a full physical relationship between Thera and Jonah but Amanda Tapping, amongst others, protested that it was unnecessary. The story arc had been completed and the reintroduction of sexual feelings would have undone previous episodes and put the characters back at square one.

Where did you hear this? As I understand it, there was a kiss in the script but it never went farther. And it was PDL who decided the kiss was unnecessary because he liked the soft intimacy of the tight close up with Sam/There leaning on Jack/Jonah's shoulder.

That was a sweet scene. Sam so easily turns around and leans on to him. She initiates the intimacy without any hesitation/ The speak honestly and freely with one another. And the one thing Jack remembers about his past life, the one thing he's sure about is that he has feelings for Sam. That's powerful.

I do agree that if there had been a full physical relationship there would have been far reaching implications upon their return to the SGC and their own lives. It wouldn't just put them at square one it would throw them completely off kilter. How do you deal with sharing that kind of intimacy with someone when you have been brainwashed? It would have to make them question their motivations, feelings, values, respect for one another. And to gloss over it and just show them back to business as usual in the next episode would have been a galling cheat. So personally I have to believe that nothing more than some whispered conversations, casual touches and maybe a few stolen kisses happened between them.

A few pretties just to finish things off:

[hlndncr]

I don't have much to say about Point of No Return. It's alright. I have always thought that the title for this episode and Tangent should have been switched. This episode feels more like a tangent from the normal SG-1 adventures and just becomes more tangential every time Martin Lloyd reappears.

Some fans did protest that Jack shows more concern for Sam than for Daniel when he finds them tied up in the warehouse. So you could kind of say that was shippy.

[dipsofjazz]

Moving on.

How can you criticize Window of Opportunity? It is a near perfect episode. It has humor, heart, great pacing, interesting story. What's amazing is this was only the second episode by Paul Mullie and Joe Mallozzi. They just had the characters and the tone of the show down. No wonder they were brought on to the regular writing staff after their first freelance script (Scorched Earth - also a very good ep IMO).

What I love about this episode is that every bit of it is absolutely spot on. Everyone has great comic timing, even the little things like Teal'c taking the thermometer out of his mouth again and again in the background in the infirmary scenes, and Jack's frequent "bad example." But even the abrupt switch to the dramatic and poignant at the end was brilliantly done. It could have been clumsy and out of place, but it felt natural and organic. Jack's empathizing with Malachi's pain and loss was very sincere and heart felt.

The music was delightful. I love it when they just let Joel Goldsmith loose on an episode. He shows such a deft touch for capturing the spirit of an episode. The score in this one has a repetitive quality to it that is filled with both subtle frustration and unrestrained mischief.

All the gags and bits came in because the episode was running short. Normally you have to take time setting up a scene and having characters come and go, but in this ep you don't have that after the first time through. So RDA suggested juggling. BW had long wanted an excuse to hit a golf ball through the stargate. The kiss was Paul Mullie's idea (Thank you, Paul!). I do want to know where they came up with Jack doing pottery. That was truly random.

A couple of other little tidbits: No one knows what Daniel's question was. It was never written. The fruitloops on Jack's spoon were glued together so they would be exactly the same each time. Jack resigning before he kissed Sam was at the request of the AF.

Sam & Jack

I love how happy and flirty they are with each other. And Jack even demonstrates that he actually does listen to Sam's technobabble with the magnets, time inversion bubbles and solar radiation. He doesn't always repeat it back correctly, but he was listening.

The WoO kiss is awesome. It's such an over the top romantic gesture. Compared with Sam's idea of a forbidden kiss, which is pretty steamy. Of course, I think Jack's smirk at the end may suggest a few additional kisses that we didn't see.

Jack was doing pottery because RDA had just taken up pottery as a hobby, so they used it in the episode.