Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

LOL-I love rambling here on this thread! It makes for great discussion!

Besides Pete and Jonas H., I don't think I could actually say Sam was "in" a relationship, except for maybe friendship. Now while those men (aliens? Orlin, Martouf, Narim) died, she never had an intimate "dating" relationship with them. Perhaps deep down she has the Black Widow theory thing going on in her head, and this might make her somewhat leery of heading into a relationship. I feel however, that Sam is just afraid of taking anything to the next level. It may be because of the nature of her work-she can't really share any of it with anyone outside her command and maybe the fear of dying in the line of duty. Does Sam fear commitment? Maybe so. And maybe deep down she's just holding out for Jack.

Oh, it's definitely the last. Of that I am sure. She's just trying to talk herself into taking second best because the man in first place is too hard to get through to. Like nearly impossible. As josi mentioned earlier, up until Threads it's required an alien influence to even get him to try.

[Bee11]

Brad Wright said he was writing a "romantic scene" for them so I'm taking that as a pretty big hint, myself.

Better not be another 'alternative time line/reality etc' romantic scene
Honestly, how big a scene will they dedicate to Sam and Jack without annoying other viewers that are not into the couple.

[leiasky]

Yeah, I'm done with time travel, alternate timeline stories. They've been done to death. They can't continue to use them as a crutch to 're-set' current events. It's getting old. Hopefully, this new story won't have ANYTHING to do with it.

[hedwig]

LOL. Isn't the bolded part all it really comes down to, anyway? It's the trump card.

I'm no relationship counselor, but I think they complement each other. In all the important basics, I think there's a pretty good chance they agree- same religion or lack thereof, same politics or lack thereof, same dedication to work, same economic status and the biggest most important thing of all- RESPECT. I don't care how much people have in common, if there's no respect, they are doomed. If there is respect, almost everything can be overcome.

There really is a lot of truth that opposites attract. Often people need balance in their lives and some people instinctively know that. Jack and Sam need balance. The danger in falling for someone because they're just like you is that one of you is eventually going to change- and then what? I think they appreciate each other for being what the other is not. They've certainly had enough time to figure that part out.



I think that bolded part is very true. I'm not sure if I meant he should literally drop dead, but I wouldn't have minded.



Yes. I also think TPTB themselves wrote Sam so OOC during the whole Pete fiasco that there are A LOT of fanfic writers who could have done a better job. So the question then becomes- is Sam really that weak or can we disregard canon? I disregard it. I don't dispute the events but I explain it away as Sam not being herself. Though I don't have a good explanation why that would be. Anyone have any ideas?

And that's one thing that bothered me about Threads. I really wished she'd have dumped Pete before meeting up with Jack in the infirmary. I'd like to have known she was doing it regardless of the fact that she felt Jack was waiting in the wings. I know the plot wouldn't have allowed for that as Jacob really was ill, but those who don't like the ship often point to this fact and I have to agree with them.

What I'd like to know is who she did lean on through the funeral and surrounding events. I'm thinking the team kind of closed ranks around her and made Pete keep his distance which is kind of easy to do given Jacob's situation. I don't think access to classified information is permanent.

Re the bolded part: one too many concussions??

[hedwig]

LOL-I love rambling here on this thread! It makes for great discussion!

Besides Pete and Jonas H., I don't think I could actually say Sam was "in" a relationship, except for maybe friendship. Now while those men (aliens? Orlin, Martouf, Narim) died, she never had an intimate "dating" relationship with them. Perhaps deep down she has the Black Widow theory thing going on in her head, and this might make her somewhat leery of heading into a relationship. I feel however, that Sam is just afraid of taking anything to the next level. It may be because of the nature of her work-she can't really share any of it with anyone outside her command and maybe the fear of dying in the line of duty. Does Sam fear commitment? Maybe so. And maybe deep down she's just holding out for Jack.

Agrees totally with the bolded part. Sam was never in a "relationship" with any of those men, beyond friendship. They all had what amounted to "crushes" on her (or something like that), and while she liked all of those men, she never returned any of their romantic feelings - other than that almost kiss with Narim when they first met - that Daniel interrupted - which I was always annoyed with - I mean, in the middle of the control room for crying out loud. That was sooo wrong! But I blame that on the writers, not on Sam. And I've never been able to understand how so many fanfiction writers find fault with Sam for being in relationships with those men when, if you even watch the show, it was never stated or shown that she was ever anything beyond friends with them (at least in my opinion).

[Aveo_amacus]

Re the bolded part: one too many concussions??

uh oh the world could be in danger in that case

[VSS]

Brief Candle

Favorite Scene: When Jack collapses on the second day and Sam catches him. She's really upset with what's going on, and really starting to care about him as a person.

Favorite Quote: Have an apple. What could happen?

Thanks, jumble!

As I posted a few eps ago, every Stargate ep seems to have a purpose. I think this is the first one where we get the kind of social/technological commentary that is the central feature of scifi.

Spoiler:

This episode basically focuses on what a person would be willing to trade for an essentially perfect life, taken to its logical extreme. Most of us would be willing to lose a few days, maybe even years if we got an idyllic life in return- but how many years? And is an idyllic life really what we want? Are truth, freedom and knowledge really better than ignorant bliss?

Even having babies is a snap for these people. But it’s not until the next day that the team realizes something is up when the baby is now a toddler. That should have been their first clue to figure out what was going on before they stayed any longer. And really, after touching that blue crystal in the last ep, why would Jack eat the cake? Because he has a fan? I think so. He’s a sucker for a pretty woman. After what happened in Emancipation, you’d think that they’d be a little bit more careful about letting one of the team become separated from the rest.

Anyway. I do love the scene where the team finds Jack’s been seduced. Or is it rape? He was drugged, after all. And he doesn’t seem too thrilled about it the next day. Of course, then he finds out he’s acquired a doozy of an STD. No wonder he waited 100 days to have sex with an alien the next time the opportunity presented itself. Why is Sam the only one who’s unhappy with what he did? The other two are focusing on the circumstances, but Sam is focusing on Jack. What’s the source of her anger- that he jeopardized his own safety or that he didn’t live up to her moral standards? Throughout the scenes on the planet, she's really feeling a lot of anguish over his situation. It's not until she's in the safety of her lab and able to actually do something that she's able to find a more even keel.

Spoiler:

Was it really the right thing for Jack to have told the people their god was false and they were lab rats? After all, they were happy and healthy. I think he regretted it, but in the end was interfering in their culture the right thing to do? I definitely think that it wasn’t necessarily the best thing for the SGC to undo everything that had been done, at least so quickly. Would the Chosen Ones really have been so happy with all the new knowledge and the changes?

I like the way Teal’c shows his usefulness in deciphering the goa’uld writing. Here’s where we finally see that he’s not only a warrior but has insight that will really help in the fight against the goa’uld. I also love Daniel’s outburst in the briefing room. Of course, General Hammond is absolutely right. And finally, I really like the moments when Janet and Sam work together on the nanites. The deteriorating gloves remind me of The Andromeda Strain. So this is a nice team episode as well.

One small thing that really got to me was Jack watching the video of the team. When he's done, at the end, you can hear that he's rewinding it. I wonder how many times he does that?

I think the biggest objection that I have to this ep is Jack’s personality. He seems to undergo a lifetime of emotional changes, which I don’t quite buy since that would seem to be based on one’s life experiences. I think Kynthia and her wisdom is a little too superficial to have precipitated the kind of changes in his outlook that he seems to have had. Charlie's death and his subsequent divorce never made him open up- why would he now? And the little speech to her in the end seems so OOC. Contrast the Jack of CL with this Jack and the difference is really striking. I think he talks more about himself in this single episode than in the entire rest of the series. So, does he really start cherishing each and every day after this ep? I don’t think so, or he’d have seen this as a second chance, ditched the SGC and gone back to Sara. To be honest, Jack literally becomes a sentimental old man, and it doesn’t suit him.

We were wondering what happened with Sara. Now he refers to her as his ex-wife for the first time- so the events of CL finally sealed the fate of that relationship. I had thought they were already divorced by the start of the series, but now I don’t think so. And I’m not sure I like that. Does that change anyone else’s perception of the shippy moments we’ve seen over the first few months of the team’s existence?

Implications for Sam and Jack: I have no idea, because Jack seems so OOC. Any one else have thoughts on this?

[VSS]

Better not be another 'alternative time line/reality etc' romantic scene
Honestly, how big a scene will they dedicate to Sam and Jack without annoying other viewers that are not into the couple.

Cheer up! Really, there are a lot of reasons why that's unlikely to happen.

Perhaps you should read what BW said yourself: http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....stcount=179594

And also this from the New York Times (no hot link because it's not directly Stargate related, so you have to paste it in your address bar), just to show you that the audience for action/adventure shows, including scifi, is not (despite what you might think wandering around GW) comprised of people who hate ship:

nytimes.com/2009/03/07/arts/television/07castle.html

Why wouldn't TPTB want to write in a little romance if it's part of the story? It'll sell movies. I don't think they're going to let any group of vocal fans (including us) dictate their writing. They're going to do what they want to do at this point in time. And since BW has been working on this story arc for what- twelve years?- like any other decent writer/producer, he probably wants to wrap it up. That interview he gave is six months old which means that romantic scene was among the first that he wrote, before turning the script over to Carl Binder. I think that means it's important.

Yeah, I'm done with time travel, alternate timeline stories. They've been done to death. They can't continue to use them as a crutch to 're-set' current events. It's getting old. Hopefully, this new story won't have ANYTHING to do with it.

I bet it has to do with

Spoiler:

SGU

, though.

Re the bolded part: one too many concussions??

LOL! But it selectively affected her emotional judgement? Oh well, if you've ever read anything by Oliver Sacks, you'd believe that was possible.

[hedwig]

Cheer up! Really, there are a lot of reasons why that's unlikely to happen.

Perhaps you should read what BW said yourself: http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....stcount=179594

And also this from the New York Times (no hot link because it's not directly Stargate related, so you have to paste it in your address bar), just to show you that the viewing public is not, despite what you might think wandering around GW, comprised of people who hate ship:

nytimes.com/2009/03/07/arts/television/07castle.html

Why wouldn't TPTB want to write in a little romance if it's part of the story? It'll sell movies. I don't think they're going to let any group of vocal fans (including us) dictate their writing. They're going to do what they want to do at this point in time. And since BW has been working on this story arc for what- twelve years?- like any other decent writer/producer, he probably wants to wrap it up. That interview he gave is six months old which means that romantic scene was among the first that he wrote, before turning the script over to Carl Binder. I think that means it's important.



I bet it has to do with

Spoiler:

SGU

, though.



LOL! But it selectively affected her emotional judgement? Oh well, if you've ever read anything by Oliver Sacks, you'd believe that was possible.

**runs off to find out who Oliver Sacks is** - but if you feel so moved to leave a comment here about that, feel free, please.

I figure that we've seen that Sam's technological side doesn't seem to be terribly affected by concussions - given that she still managed to figure a way out for the ship, her crew and herself in spite of a concussion (in "Grace", and at other times which I don't immediately recall), so that only leaves her emotional side. Don't mind me. I can come up with some of the most convoluted, twisted, weird explanations for things at times.

[VSS]

**runs off to find out who Oliver Sacks is** - but if you feel so moved to leave a comment here about that, feel free, please.

I figure that we've seen that Sam's technological side doesn't seem to be terribly affected by concussions - given that she still managed to figure a way out for the ship, her crew and herself in spite of a concussion (in "Grace", and at other times which I don't immediately recall), so that only leaves her emotional side. Don't mind me. I can come up with some of the most convoluted, twisted, weird explanations for things at times.

Isn't that what scifi writers do?

Oliver Sacks OT

Spoiler:

He's a neurologist. He wrote several books of short stories about his most unique patients, from a wonderfully compassionate perspective. Most of them had head trauma or strokes and you would simply not believe how they think and behave after that. His most famous book probably is The Man Who Mistook His WIfe for a Hat.

But every time I sit down and try to analyze an episode like Cold Lazarus, i feel exactly like the title of another of his books, An Anthropologist on Mars.

[gater62]

Boy, you guys post long posts! And a lot! But that's great! Gives something wonderful to read after student essays. Blegh!

[VSS]

Wow, so no one else liked Brief Candle, either? I was hoping someone could enlighten me on this episode, but I guess it's not a fan favorite!

Well, let's not dwell. Here's the revised schedule, it gives a little more time to some eps (including this one ).

Schedule
April 8 Stargate the movie and Children of the Gods
April 10 The Enemy Within
April 13 Emancipation
April 15 The Broca Divide
April 17 The First Commandment
April 20 Cold Lazarus
April 22 Brief Candle
April 24 The Nox and Thor’s Hammer
April 27 The Torment of Tantalus and Bloodlines
April 29 Fire and Water
May 1 Hathor
May 4 Singularity
May 6 Cor-Ai and Enigma
May 8 Solitudes
May 11 Tin Man
May 13 There but for the Grace of God
May 15 Politics and Within the Serpent’s Grasp

[Sarai]

We were wondering what happened with Sara. Now he refers to her as his ex-wife for the first time- so the events of CL finally sealed the fate of that relationship. I had thought they were already divorced by the start of the series, but now I don’t think so. And I’m not sure I like that. Does that change anyone else’s perception of the shippy moments we’ve seen over the first few months of the team’s existence?

Implications for Sam and Jack: I have no idea, because Jack seems so OOC. Any one else have thoughts on this?

Perhaps it's the fact that his divorce has come through that he is OOC. In CL I've always thought that he and Sara were estranged; separated rather than divorced. In any case they still seem to have a rather broken and painful relationship, there is anger there but neither hates the other. Which is justifiable because of the death of Charlie. I would suggest that seeing each other in CL was closure for Sara, and she instigated (or re-instigated) the divorce proceedings. I'm no expert in divorce law, but since they had been estranged and living apart for what seems like a long while am I right in saying that the divorce could go through faster? In any case, I believe that between the events of CL and BC Jack knew that his marriage really was over and he was, dare I say it, 'on the rebound'. He wanted to rebel (and revel) a little, so he 'let his hair down' and um, went off (?), with Kynthia .

RE: the bolded part...

I have no problem with the idea that Jack and Sara were still technically married for those first few episodes. You can be technically still married to someone and not live with them or love them any more. Having said that, once you have loved (and especially had a child) with someone its difficult to let that go, and a part of you will always hold a 'candle' (excuse the pun) for that person. I don't believe this casts a negative light on the flegdling shippy moments we have seen. In fact, IMO it gives a real depth to Jack's character. He is damaged goods, and it's going to take him a long time to get over the sudden and drastic changes in his life. This is where Sam comes in; he slowly begins to see her as the light, the woman who can put his life back together and give it some semblance of meaning.

[Aveo_amacus]

Wow, so no one else liked Brief Candle, either? I was hoping someone could enlighten me on this episode, but I guess it's not a fan favorite!

Yeah I have to say it's really not one of my favourites, but I made myself watch it Once I got past the "suduction" scene it felt a bit more like an SG1 episode and I started to like parts of the ep a bit more

I know the 'cake' drugged Jack, but still, first he allows himself to be separated/taken by 'attactive girls', and then follows Kynthia into the house..
Then there's the whole rape thing which only manifests as Carter's disapproval, if it had been Carter a) Jack would never have let 3 guys drag her off and b) he would never have let her be taken inside. It's one of these guys don't seem to get raped things (See Hathor for Daniel's turn). It's clear in the next scene he doesn't really know what happened, or more accurately how it happened.

Does anyone know what the policy is for drinking on duty during a cultural event??

although plus side, do you think the babies sleep through the night??

and hehe floppy discs!! I remember those

When Jack orders them all back to earth Sam looks like she's about to start crying (((Sam)))

Kynthia still trying to push Sam out of the way to talk to Jack by herself, in the last shot it strikes me that even with the different coloured hair, Kynthia looks a lot like Sara in facial structure, I wonder if that was deliberate or just my imagination

[Aveo_amacus]

Perhaps it's the fact that his divorce has come through that he is OOC. In CL I've always thought that he and Sara were estranged; separated rather than divorced. In any case they still seem to have a rather broken and painful relationship, there is anger there but neither hates the other. Which is justifiable because of the death of Charlie. I would suggest that seeing each other in CL was closure for Sara, and she instigated (or re-instigated) the divorce proceedings. I'm no expert in divorce law, but since they had been estranged and living apart for what seems like a long while am I right in saying that the divorce could go through faster? In any case, I believe that between the events of CL and BC Jack knew that his marriage really was over and he was, dare I say it, 'on the rebound'. He wanted to rebel (and revel) a little, so he 'let his hair down' and um, went off (?), with Kynthia .

OO that's an interesting thought. Jack's actions (and lack thereof) in this ep never sat well with me (see previous post ), but that's an interesting angle. The only thing that may not fit as well with this is the letter to Sara. Well the fact that he started/wanted to write one at least. But maybe the fact that he didn't get any further than "Dear Sara" could fit with your theory. Maybe as he didn't feel the need to justify himself to her anymore if that's the case.

RE: the bolded part...

I have no problem with the idea that Jack and Sara were still technically married for those first few episodes. You can be technically still married to someone and not live with them or love them any more. Having said that, once you have loved (and especially had a child) with someone its difficult to let that go, and a part of you will always hold a 'candle' (excuse the pun) for that person. I don't believe this casts a negative light on the flegdling shippy moments we have seen. In fact, IMO it gives a real depth to Jack's character. He is damaged goods, and it's going to take him a long time to get over the sudden and drastic changes in his life. This is where Sam comes in; he slowly begins to see her as the light, the woman who can put his life back together and give it some semblance of meaning.

Agreed, assuming they were separated but not divorced at the start for the moment, there's a difference between Jack and Sara attempting to reconcile and them 'waiting' for the divorce proceedings to go through. If they were still a part of each other's lives in an attempt to save their marriage then sure it casts problems for the fledgling Jakc/Sam ship, but if not I think it just highlinghts/re-enforces Jack's past as an aspect of their relationship.