Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hedwig]

I'm not sure that he's a workaholic except in terms of being ready to go out on missions any time. After all, this is the man who doesn't know he has a desk even after seven years on the job. His work is field work. What's he going to do at the base? I'm not sure what he does with himself besides look through a telescope. Which is an interesting vocation- by default it's a solitary pursuit.



That's a very good question because I was almost sure that somewhere in these early episodes we find out that they're divorced. But I don't know where. It's before Solitudes, I think.



Oh, for a minute there I thought you meant causality and I thought we were going to get into some deep quantum theory. Whew!

I had never really thought of this possibility before, so that's an interesting point. I guess think there wasn't any hope. Jack had already left town and moved away by the time we see him on his roof in CotG. Maybe that's why they had his original home be so far away from Colorado Springs. Plus, he'd been in special forces, I'm not sure that this would be so different from that in terms of the impact on his family. And then there's that whole horrible conversation in Affinity about family life and the SGC.




I don't get that, either. I like her.

I guess I'm lucky - I've never run across any fanfiction that demonizes Sara. I've found a few where she and Sam became friendly and even had lunch together at times. And Sara even became Sam's friend and was with her at the birth of Sam's and Jack's first child when Jack was missing.

[VSS]

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed (which it probably has) but what is everyones thoughts/feelings/hopes of anything Jack/Sam in the 3rd movie?
Do you think there will be any moments between them no matter how much of a small hint?

Brad Wright said he was writing a "romantic scene" for them so I'm taking that as a pretty big hint, myself.

[Aveo_amacus]

I guess I'm lucky - I've never run across any fanfiction that demonizes Sara. I've found a few where she and Sam became friendly and even had lunch together at times. And Sara even became Sam's friend and was with her at the birth of Sam's and Jack's first child when Jack was missing.

that wouldn't be Karibou's by any change would it

But yeah I don't like the demonizing Sara fics either, but then I also don't like the demonized Pete ones

[hedwig]

that wouldn't be Karibou's by any change would it

But yeah I don't like the demonizing Sara fics either, but then I also don't like the demonized Pete ones

I'm going to have to run off and look in my saved fanfiction now, just to be sure. But I think you're right about the latter being one of Karibou's stories (love her stories...wants her to write and post more).

I don't like seeing Pete demonized either. He was actually a nice enough guy ... just not right for Sam (IMO).

[VSS]

I'm going to have to run off and look in my saved fanfiction now, just to be sure. But I think you're right about the latter being one of Karibou's stories (love her stories...wants her to write and post more).

I don't like seeing Pete demonized either. He was actually a nice enough guy ... just not right for Sam (IMO).

I have to respectfully disagree. Pete was not a nice enough guy- abusing his authority to run a background check on Sam (that's illegal, BTW)- walking out on her in a little tizzy fit- spying on her- groping her while on the job- calling her at work, repeatedly- moving to Colorado Springs, buying a ring and a house without even asking what she thought about any of it, just presuming she'd love it all... no, I definitely think he's not nice. Pete is very typical of a guy who loves a girl for how she makes him feel, but doesn't spare a thought for how he might make her feel. Which is kind of the opposite of Jack, actually.

The Sam I thought I knew would never have put up with such immature behavior. Sara (and Kerry) were miles ahead of Pete! He deserves whatever he gets in fanfic. Of all her boyfriends, he's the only one I wish would have died.

Whew! I'm exhausted!
Sorry for going off the deep end about Pete, but TPTB seriously messed up Sam as a character to have her fall for this kind of guy. But then, I'm an Agent Barrett woman, myself.

[Petra]

[B]
That picture of Charlie as a baby was heartwrenching. What parent doesn’t have a bathtub picture exactly like that? I think the entire cigar box of mementos was poignant- if he could still see Sara and Charlie every day would that box still be there? What if he had someone to talk to? The letters from Sara show he used to live in Winter Park. Why did they pick that town? I hate gaps in continuity and logic.

VSS, I have a question: I don't know much about the US geography, but why are you so surprised that they used to live in Winter Park? What is so special/strange about this town/city? And I guess it's quite a distance from Colorado Springs then?

I'm not sure that he's a workaholic except in terms of being ready to go out on missions any time. After all, this is the man who doesn't know he has a desk even after seven years on the job. His work is field work. What's he going to do at the base? I'm not sure what he does with himself besides look through a telescope. Which is an interesting vocation- by default it's a solitary pursuit.

But he's supposed to be the 2IC of the SGC, isn't he? Or at least Hammond's right hand man. I'm sure there are tons of things he needs to do at the base. Besides, apart from The Curse, he's always on base when something happens, just like Sam and Daniel. There wasn't even one instance when somebody had to call/page him to come, and I don't think every emergency in the show took place during SG-1's shift. Add to this that even he himself notes a few times that he came to work early, usually by a few hours...? (I think in The Other Side he asks Sam what's she doing on base already, as he is a couple of hours earlier).

I had never really thought of this possibility before, so that's an interesting point. I guess think there wasn't any hope. Jack had already left town and moved away by the time we see him on his roof in CotG. Maybe that's why they had his original home be so far away from Colorado Springs. Plus, he'd been in special forces, I'm not sure that this would be so different from that in terms of the impact on his family. And then there's that whole horrible conversation in Affinity about family life and the SGC.

But this is exactly my point. He moved after Sarah had left him because of Charlie. But in Cold Lazarus they got the chance to clear the air, so to speak. They might have tried to get back together after this, but Jack probably thought it would be just like during his SF days, or probably even worse, so in the end he let her go, choosing the SGC.

[Petra]

I have to respectfully disagree.
snip

Oh, I agree completely. Well, almost. I wouldn't want him to die, but I agree out of all Sam's potential boyfriends/love interests he was definitely the worst. His introduction in Chimera was awful and ensured that I'll never warm up to him. I didn't particularly like all the guys interested in Sam, but Pete was the only one I had real issues with.
Still, there are fanfics and fanfics. In some he's some sort of monster, and those I don't like. But there are also great fanfics about Pete whom we met in Chimera (controlling, distrusting etc) which are very good.

But anyway, I came here looking for a refuge and to calm down after fuming induced by a lecture of another article on LJ on why Jack and Sam don't work together as a couple. I like to know what and why people, especially those who don't share my views, think the way they do, but there is only so many comments like "RDA/AT don't have any chemistry" or "have brother/sister chemistry", or "Sam and Jack aren't even friends", "the real chemistry is between MS and RDA" or "Jack and Daniel are the pair with the emotional intimacy", apparently lacking in S/J, I can take.

However, the author of the article also noted that s/he has never come across an explanation why Jack and Sam would be great together as a couple. She claims shippers have never given any reasons, apart from "they love each other", while s/he did the extensive list why they wouldn't work.

So, anyone up to the challenge? Why our couple would be/is great?

[VSS]

VSS, I have a question: I don't know much about the US geography, but why are you so surprised that they used to live in Winter Park? What is so special/strange about this town/city? And I guess it's quite a distance from Colorado Springs then?

It's about a 3 hour drive and it's pretty isolated, at around 9000 ft. up. There's a great ski resort there, but the population can't be over 1000, even in the winter. If he's in the Air Force, why is he there? And in the ep, it's much bigger and you get the feeling it's a suburb of Colorado Springs. The one thing it would be excellent for, however, is stargazing. And I guess that's where Jack got his bad knees.

My husband says they picked it because it sounded Colorado-y. I agree.

But he's supposed to be the 2IC of the SGC, isn't he? Or at least Hammond's right hand man. I'm sure there are tons of things he needs to do at the base. Besides, apart from The Curse, he's always on base when something happens, just like Sam and Daniel. There wasn't even one instance when somebody had to call/page him to come, and I don't think every emergency in the show took place during SG-1's shift. Add to this that even he himself notes a few times that he came to work early, usually by a few hours...? (I think in The Other Side he asks Sam what's she doing on base already, as he is a couple of hours earlier).

Oh, all right! I concede he's a bit of a workaholic later, but at this point I think he actually isn't the 2IC of the facility yet- Hammond doesn't know him all that well, yet. Not that he really knows anyone but he has to have had the opportunity to observe who's who among the team leaders and I think that occurs over time. I think he's still keeping to himself right now, but as time goes by does become more gregarious, and so we at least see him around more.

[Aveo_amacus]

I have to respectfully disagree. Pete was not a nice enough guy- abusing his authority to run a background check on Sam (that's illegal, BTW)- walking out on her in a little tizzy fit- spying on her- groping her while on the job- calling her at work, repeatedly- moving to Colorado Springs, buying a ring and a house without even asking what she thought about any of it, just presuming she'd love it all... no, I definitely think he's not nice. Pete is very typical of a guy who loves a girl for how she makes him feel, but doesn't spare a thought for how he might make her feel. Which is kind of the opposite of Jack, actually.

The Sam I thought I knew would never have put up with such immature behavior. Sara (and Kerry) were miles ahead of Pete! He deserves whatever he gets in fanfic. Of all her boyfriends, he's the only one I wish would have died.

Whew! I'm exhausted!
Sorry for going off the deep end about Pete, but TPTB seriously messed up Sam as a character to have her fall for this kind of guy. But then, I'm an Agent Barrett woman, myself.

Hmm good point, his walking out and background checking always really bugged me, I was talking about the fics that make him a woman-beater, because even with all the flaws you list (good list btw) I can't get my head to the place where he hits Sam. Jonas (Hansen) yes (well as a break up scene only really), but I can't get there with Pete. But yeah I agree with you on the other things.
Apart from the dying thing, I think the fact that he doesn't die is important (and not just because he was PDL's brother); all of Sam's Significant Others have died in the last 7 years, she makes the joke herself, except for her it's not a joke, whenever she gets close to someone they die, they leave her not the other way around. I think part of the back of her mind keeps expecting him to die/leave. But he doesn't. He keeps coming back, and it kinda throws her.
In fact, I've always kinda seen it as an important step forward for Sam during that seen in Threads, because (although literally Pete gets up and leaves) it's Sam that's leaving the relationship. For the first time in a long while she's the one that's dictating when the relationship ends.
I think, before she could really be with Jack she has to be the one to acknowledge that it's over, not just wait for Pete to drop dead somehow.
I don't know, somehow it seems a better way for her to let Jack in, rather than using him as support to get through Pete's funeral or something. (Or him leaving for some other reason)

opps kinda rambled, yeah

[hedwig]

Hmm good point, his walking out and background checking always really bugged me, I was talking about the fics that make him a woman-beater, because even with all the flaws you list (good list btw) I can't get my head to the place where he hits Sam. Jonas (Hansen) yes (well as a break up scene only really), but I can't get there with Pete. But yeah I agree with you on the other things.
Apart from the dying thing, I think the fact that he doesn't die is important (and not just because he was PDL's brother); all of Sam's Significant Others have died in the last 7 years, she makes the joke herself, except for her it's not a joke, whenever she gets close to someone they die, they leave her not the other way around. I think part of the back of her mind keeps expecting him to die/leave. But he doesn't. He keeps coming back, and it kinda throws her.
In fact, I've always kinda seen it as an important step forward for Sam during that seen in Threads, because (although literally Pete gets up and leaves) it's Sam that's leaving the relationship. For the first time in a long while she's the one that's dictating when the relationship ends.
I think, before she could really be with Jack she has to be the one to acknowledge that it's over, not just wait for Pete to drop dead somehow.
I don't know, somehow it seems a better way for her to let Jack in, rather than using him as support to get through Pete's funeral or something. (Or him leaving for some other reason)

opps kinda rambled, yeah

Agrees with all your comments and observations. I even made a list from "Chimera" of all Pete's actions that made him what many consider to be a stalker, and posted it sometime back on the S/J ship appreciation thread. In my mind, anybody who does what he did isn't deserving of somebody like Sam (or anybody else, really, without getting some serious counseling), and yet he got off without even a slap on the wrist by anybody ... not the Air Force, not the SGC ... and worst of all, Sam kept seeing him, even though she must have been informed of what he had done. (It would seem like somebody in higher authority would have investigated the whole incident AND Pete and caused some kind of problems for him after all that ... but apparently not.) I think she should have politely kicked him right out of her life at that point. (I've read very few stories where she did that instead of continuing to see him. And even fewer where, if he did actually start abusing her, she fought back and wiped the floor with him before kicking him out of her life. Hmmm ... maybe I'll have to try to write something like that myself.) However, it doesn't change my mind that in spite of all that, there was something about him that was good. He was just immature, insecure, selfish, and all those other things, too.

Ooop ... guess I also is rambling.

[gater62]

Hmm good point, his walking out and background checking always really bugged me, I was talking about the fics that make him a woman-beater, because even with all the flaws you list (good list btw) I can't get my head to the place where he hits Sam. Jonas (Hansen) yes (well as a break up scene only really), but I can't get there with Pete. But yeah I agree with you on the other things.
Apart from the dying thing, I think the fact that he doesn't die is important (and not just because he was PDL's brother); all of Sam's Significant Others have died in the last 7 years, she makes the joke herself, except for her it's not a joke, whenever she gets close to someone they die, they leave her not the other way around. I think part of the back of her mind keeps expecting him to die/leave. But he doesn't. He keeps coming back, and it kinda throws her.
In fact, I've always kinda seen it as an important step forward for Sam during that seen in Threads, because (although literally Pete gets up and leaves) it's Sam that's leaving the relationship. For the first time in a long while she's the one that's dictating when the relationship ends.
I think, before she could really be with Jack she has to be the one to acknowledge that it's over, not just wait for Pete to drop dead somehow.
I don't know, somehow it seems a better way for her to let Jack in, rather than using him as support to get through Pete's funeral or something. (Or him leaving for some other reason)

opps kinda rambled, yeah

LOL-I love rambling here on this thread! It makes for great discussion!

Besides Pete and Jonas H., I don't think I could actually say Sam was "in" a relationship, except for maybe friendship. Now while those men (aliens? Orlin, Martouf, Narim) died, she never had an intimate "dating" relationship with them. Perhaps deep down she has the Black Widow theory thing going on in her head, and this might make her somewhat leery of heading into a relationship. I feel however, that Sam is just afraid of taking anything to the next level. It may be because of the nature of her work-she can't really share any of it with anyone outside her command and maybe the fear of dying in the line of duty. Does Sam fear commitment? Maybe so. And maybe deep down she's just holding out for Jack.

[leiasky]

I have to respectfully disagree. Pete was not a nice enough guy- abusing his authority to run a background check on Sam (that's illegal, BTW)- walking out on her in a little tizzy fit- spying on her- groping her while on the job- calling her at work, repeatedly- moving to Colorado Springs, buying a ring and a house without even asking what she thought about any of it, just presuming she'd love it all... no, I definitely think he's not nice. Pete is very typical of a guy who loves a girl for how she makes him feel, but doesn't spare a thought for how he might make her feel. Which is kind of the opposite of Jack, actually.

I like the idea that Pete is the complete opposite of Jack - and Sam thinks that's what she wants.

I hated the storyline with Pete but I came to accept it for what it was- something to show Sam what she thought she wanted and what she really wanted were two different things. Things that were shown to her in Grace. She just made the wrong choice.

The Sam I thought I knew would never have put up with such immature behavior. Sara (and Kerry) were miles ahead of Pete! He deserves whatever he gets in fanfic. Of all her boyfriends, he's the only one I wish would have died.

I agree that Sam wouldn't have put up with Pete's behaviour. There's nothing to indicate that Sam, or anyone at the SGC, knew about the background check.

And Sam did put a stop to it after he bought the house.

[leiasky]

It may be because of the nature of her work-she can't really share any of it with anyone outside her command and maybe the fear of dying in the line of duty. Does Sam fear commitment? Maybe so. And maybe deep down she's just holding out for Jack.

She could be scarred by her failed relationship with Jonas. Or - like Jack, who has experience in trying to keep a relationship together due to his top secret work, is afraid of being involved with someone who she can't share that part of her life with.

After the first few years on SG-1, she is holding out for Jack (because she knows the feelings are reciprocated) - until she meets Pete.

[leiasky]

So, anyone up to the challenge? Why our couple would be/is great?

1. RDA and AT's chemistry.
2. TPTB even admit to the chemistry between AT and RDA encouraged them to write more 'shippy' stuff.
3. They're great in the show because the seasons are filled with angsty, longing looks and actions because it can't be confirmed with words thanks to the Air Force Regs.

Someone else can add to this if they like.

[VSS]

However, the author of the article also noted that s/he has never come across an explanation why Jack and Sam would be great together as a couple. She claims shippers have never given any reasons, apart from "they love each other", while s/he did the extensive list why they wouldn't work.

So, anyone up to the challenge? Why our couple would be/is great?

LOL. Isn't the bolded part all it really comes down to, anyway? It's the trump card.

I'm no relationship counselor, but I think they complement each other. In all the important basics, I think there's a pretty good chance they agree- same religion or lack thereof, same politics or lack thereof, same dedication to work, same economic status and the biggest most important thing of all- RESPECT. I don't care how much people have in common, if there's no respect, they are doomed. If there is respect, almost everything can be overcome.

There really is a lot of truth that opposites attract. Often people need balance in their lives and some people instinctively know that. Jack and Sam need balance. The danger in falling for someone because they're just like you is that one of you is eventually going to change- and then what? I think they appreciate each other for being what the other is not. They've certainly had enough time to figure that part out.

In fact, I've always kinda seen it as an important step forward for Sam during that seen in Threads, because (although literally Pete gets up and leaves) it's Sam that's leaving the relationship. For the first time in a long while she's the one that's dictating when the relationship ends.
I think, before she could really be with Jack she has to be the one to acknowledge that it's over, not just wait for Pete to drop dead somehow.
I don't know, somehow it seems a better way for her to let Jack in, rather than using him as support to get through Pete's funeral or something. (Or him leaving for some other reason)

opps kinda rambled, yeah

I think that bolded part is very true. I'm not sure if I meant he should literally drop dead, but I wouldn't have minded.

(I've read very few stories where she did that instead of continuing to see him. And even fewer where, if he did actually start abusing her, she fought back and wiped the floor with him before kicking him out of her life. Hmmm ... maybe I'll have to try to write something like that myself.) However, it doesn't change my mind that in spite of all that, there was something about him that was good. He was just immature, insecure, selfish, and all those other things, too.

Yes. I also think TPTB themselves wrote Sam so OOC during the whole Pete fiasco that there are A LOT of fanfic writers who could have done a better job. So the question then becomes- is Sam really that weak or can we disregard canon? I disregard it. I don't dispute the events but I explain it away as Sam not being herself. Though I don't have a good explanation why that would be. Anyone have any ideas?

And that's one thing that bothered me about Threads. I really wished she'd have dumped Pete before meeting up with Jack in the infirmary. I'd like to have known she was doing it regardless of the fact that she felt Jack was waiting in the wings. I know the plot wouldn't have allowed for that as Jacob really was ill, but those who don't like the ship often point to this fact and I have to agree with them.

What I'd like to know is who she did lean on through the funeral and surrounding events. I'm thinking the team kind of closed ranks around her and made Pete keep his distance which is kind of easy to do given Jacob's situation. I don't think access to classified information is permanent.