Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

I like the way you put that, but I'm confused. Are you saying that Jack wanted to tell Sam that he thought she was hot? Or are you saying he was trying to say it without really saying it and Sam caught on?

I think I agree with col aga on this one that Jack isn't ready for anything further, relationship wise, with anyone. Why would he tell Sam he thinks she's hot? To antagonize her? To tease her?

Yes, the attraction is mutual, made quite clear to us, the viewers, but would Jack want to make it clear to Sam too given the issues with the chain of command? Would that be seen as an innappropriate relationship right then and there a CO telling a member of his team, several ranks below him, that he thinks she's hot?

The part in bold. And yes, it is inappropriate to tell your 2IC that you would be "..sorry if she never wore that sweet little tank top number again." That's what I meant in my original post about him crossing the line with that comment.

I agree he's not ready for a relationship with anyone, least of all Sam. That's probably why he felt comfortable flirting so openly with her. He'd never make a comment like that after Divide and Conquer, because it really could lead to trouble. It's just a compliment, but it's one he probably shouldn't have made.

Interestingly, however, he already knows she'll let him get away with it.

[Toomi]

Well, yes. And just in general a lack of interest in the opposite sex, relationship or not. I guess it has to do with the fact that they really never showed a hint of anything that occurred in the private lives of the characters, unless it was part of the story. I have just heard people say the show significantly lacked sex appeal, for want of a better word. I don't really even know if that is true.

Ok... I'll have a stab:

Originally Posted by VSS

I’ve heard people comment that SG-1 seemed almost sexless- obviously they meant after the first season. Why don’t we see this kind of thing later on? I do think that the gratuitous full frontal nudity of CotG was unnecessary, but they could have ramped up the UST between our heroes more than they did, without crossing the line. Considering the situation, I’d have expected it. Their restraint was admirable, but frankly unbelievable, don’t you think?

Hmmmm. As far as relationship wise, I don't think TPTB wanted to make it a relationship kind of tv show to start. When they first started they had a military advisor who probably advised TPTB against getting into relationships on the base, or showing them as it could potentially put the military in a bad light, plus it was and is against regs. One small slip on a script, an adlib by an actor, and a well intended line could go southwards on the regs.

Just thinking, before SG-1, what other Sci-fi shows were there? I can think of a few, the many versions of Star Trek, Dr. Who, and BSG the original. (I wasn't into Sci Fi TV before SG-1 so I can't really think of any ) Were any of them space operas? Did they focus on relationships? The only show that I can think of that managed to carry of a relationship exceeding well was Farscape, and they did not plan for that when writing the first few episodes of it, it just happened.

and because I'm a Farscape Nut!

Spoiler:

Farscape managed to pull off what so many other shows couldn't: action, an amazing bad guy, a bad guy who turns good, a story that continued. Stargate did do that to a point; The war with the Goa'uld, Replicators etc, but many eps could be watched as stand alones. Farscape tended to rely on the viewers to tune in every week, remember what was going on, and that's what made it so amazing IMHO. Above all, they made a relationship happen (2 i guess, but I'm focusing on the main one...) and happen over an arc, watch the 2 characters develop with each other, fall apart etc.

That being said, I don't think TPTB really considered Sam and Jack together in the long run. I mean, we're talking 10 years or more ago. They just wanted to make a show, get a first season, then a second, get a viewership, get paid. What we saw in season 1 was to get people hooked, and whatever came after was gravy.

Season 1 we got quite a lot of very early 'shippy' moments, then in season 2 it feels like we got less, but when we did get a moment, it was a good moment.

Once SG-1 started really rolling, hitting season 3 and onwards, I think TPTB realised that at some point they had to do something about the Sam/Jack UST (D&C) but keep it on the safe side of the regs while they were at it. For shippyness, I think season 6 ranks pretty high and if I"m right this was in about 2000? What about the internet then? Was GW around at this point (or the site that came before it?). Was fandom an online thing by this point?

Steering away from specific Sam/Jack stuff, after season 1, doesn't Teal'c become quite the 'man'? There are several episodes where Daniel ends up 'with the girl' and a few for Jack *shudders* A Hundred Days for example.

For overall sex appeal? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.... scantily clad women to entice the male population? Even scantlier (is that a word?) clad men for the women to drool over? I don't think that would've fit. Just the way the show has been written. While it's a 'mature' show, it doesn't go to the 'gutter' like other shows have done to get that sex appeal. Again, going to Farscape and thinking specifically of the episode Meltdown where

Spoiler:

John and Aeryn are trying to restrain themselves from jumping each other and continually failing

that scenario just doesn't seem to fit with SG-1. SG-1 seems far more 'family' oriented than Farscape or even BSG.

I'm happy, more than happy with what we've got with 10 years of SG-1. While there's things about the show that I wasn't happy about, confused about etc, overall it's not something I regret watching, or becoming a fan or part of fandom about. It's a different show than others out there, without the sex appeal.

It's taken me faaaaar too long to write this post and I don't think I did anything but go around in circles....

[gater62]

Crud, I lost the post I wanted to quote! But it was about Haley being on an SG team. I was wondering, was she really? I think she was recruited to help with the "testing" of the new recruits, but do they really say anytime that she is member of the SGC? Just wondering.

[Aveo_amacus]

Crud, I lost the post I wanted to quote! But it was about Haley being on an SG team. I was wondering, was she really? I think she was recruited to help with the "testing" of the new recruits, but do they really say anytime that she is member of the SGC? Just wondering.

I don't think there was anything explicit, but I'd always sort of assumed she was from the previous batch or just a relatively new member that was a plant, but jmo.

on the whole sex appeal thing I'm completely in the other camp! I don't find the nudity scene necessary, I think if done well there are several things, sex/nudity included that can be done much better and have greater impact if done implicitly rather than explicitly. I know we haven't gotten to BC yet..

[Regularamanda]

*sneaks in*

I’ve heard people comment that SG-1 seemed almost sexless- obviously they meant after the first season. Why don’t we see this kind of thing later on? I do think that the gratuitous full frontal nudity of CotG was unnecessary, but they could have ramped up the UST between our heroes more than they did, without crossing the line. Considering the situation, I’d have expected it. Their restraint was admirable, but frankly unbelievable, don’t you think?

I'm agreeing with this to a certain extent, I think that Jack was waaay too sexless, i think he wouldn't have gone more then 5 years without being with a woman, I'm not buying that. And i think Sam would maybe have been with someone before Pete.

But on the Sam/Jack thing, I think TPTB handled that well, yeah there was the UST, but I don't think that they'd sleep with each other. Personally i think their too honorable for that. They know that they're both needed on SG-1 and that both of them (as well as Daniel and Teal'c) were the only chance they had of stopping the bad guys. They knew what would happen if they were caught sleeping together, Sam's career would have been in shambles and people would question every promotion that she ever got. And I don't think that Jack is that kind of man that would do that to her. He cares about her, he doesn't want to hurt her, and by sleeping with her in the long run that could very well hurt her a lot. There military they know that it's duty before what they want, therefore I think it was handled well. And personally with me, if they would have slept together while in the same chain of command, I would have lost a whole heck of a lot of respect for the characters.
*sneaks out*

[Aveo_amacus]

*sneaks in*

I'm agreeing with this to a certain extent, I think that Jack was waaay too sexless, i think he wouldn't have gone more then 5 years without being with a woman, I'm not buying that. And i think Sam would maybe have been with someone before Pete.

But on the Sam/Jack thing, I think TPTB handled that well, yeah there was the UST, but I don't think that they'd sleep with each other. Personally i think their too honorable for that. They know that they're both needed on SG-1 and that both of them (as well as Daniel and Teal'c) were the only chance they had of stopping the bad guys. They knew what would happen if they were caught sleeping together, Sam's career would have been in shambles and people would question every promotion that she ever got. And I don't think that Jack is that kind of man that would do that to her. He cares about her, he doesn't want to hurt her, and by sleeping with her in the long run that could very well hurt her a lot. There military they know that it's duty before what they want, therefore I think it was handled well. And personally with me, if they would have slept together while in the same chain of command, I would have lost a whole heck of a lot of respect for the characters.
*sneaks out*

The thing is that's assuming that there was never anyone we don't know about, which I think could be a false assumption. If you think about it, Sam knew Pete before we met him in Chimera, although he was a friend of her brother's it's clear she knows him at least slightly before that episode. Therefore by the same logic it's completely possible that either one or both of them dated during S1-S7

[Regularamanda]

The thing is that's assuming that there was never anyone we don't know about, which I think could be a false assumption. If you think about it, Sam knew Pete before we met him in Chimera, although he was a friend of her brother's it's clear she knows him at least slightly before that episode. Therefore by the same logic it's completely possible that either one or both of them dated during S1-S7

Very true...I think both of them would have gone on dates with other people, but other then Pete and Kerry it didn't turn into anything.

[VSS]

I don't know what to think. Sam, since she seemed to have more interest in finding someone to love and didn't seem to know where her heart was quite a lot of the time, probably did date. Jack, I'm not so sure about. It's kind of logical to assume that he would, from our perspective, since he's so um, attractive, but I'm not sure.

For one thing, it seems to me that he was always the one being pursued. With Laira, it took months though she was obviously interested from day one, and then there's Anise, where she asks if there's someone else he's loyal to and he doesn't deny it. And I keep thinking of that picture of Charlie and Sara he still had in his house in LC. I don't think the man lets go of his feelings very easily, and I think he decided he wanted Sam. After D & C, there's no one until Kerry, when he had every reason to think Sam was a lost cause. He's too nice of a guy to date someone with no intention of it going anywhere, and it's kind of pointless for him. Furthermore, how many times did he go up to the cabin alone, or beg someone to go with him? A lot. That much we do know. At the very least, he wanted to get out of town every chance he could.

Then there's that horrible scene in Chimera where Sam says:
"You know how it is. Usually you don't let it bother you because you know that they couldn't cope with the truth anyway." And Jack says, "Usually" in this way that's a little sarcastic. As if it usually never happens to him.

So I don't know. I'm actually inclined to think at the most Jack might have had a few one-night stands. And at his age, he might have figured out they're not all that great, either.

Edit: And that's one of the reasons why we can be pretty sure Jack and Sam are together now. They haven't shipped her with anyone else since Threads. Though I'm sure they desperately wanted to.

[josiane]

I think I take this last scene quite a bit differently than you do. Jack could have set her at ease- he could have left it with, "I don't remember a thing- I was infected too." But he was just setting her up with that part! When he made the comment about the tank top, he let her know two things- first, that he remembered everything- totally contradicting what he'd just said. And second, he thinks she's hot, too. That the attraction is mutual. That's why she's got that little shocked look on her face.

So yes, in one way, they're more comfortable around each other, but in another way, not so much.... Thus begins the UST they're famous for.

I like how you've described this, and I think his crossing the line there was deliberate, but as you say, a sign of comfort, that he feels he can cross that line. You're right that we'd never have got that kind of comment after D&C, for example. But I think it's actually a good way of shouldering some of the blame. Sam had no choice about revealing that on some level she found him attractive - the virus took care of that. So she feels at a disadvantage where Jack's concerned - her attraction revealed, no idea about him. So by saying what he did, Jack is levelling the playing field somewhat, indicating that the attraction is mutual and that it doesn't have to be a problem, because he can tease her about it. Of course, it develops to be that very problem, but at this point they don't know that

*sneaks in*

I'm agreeing with this to a certain extent, I think that Jack was waaay too sexless, i think he wouldn't have gone more then 5 years without being with a woman, I'm not buying that. And i think Sam would maybe have been with someone before Pete.

But on the Sam/Jack thing, I think TPTB handled that well, yeah there was the UST, but I don't think that they'd sleep with each other. Personally i think their too honorable for that. They know that they're both needed on SG-1 and that both of them (as well as Daniel and Teal'c) were the only chance they had of stopping the bad guys. They knew what would happen if they were caught sleeping together, Sam's career would have been in shambles and people would question every promotion that she ever got. And I don't think that Jack is that kind of man that would do that to her. He cares about her, he doesn't want to hurt her, and by sleeping with her in the long run that could very well hurt her a lot. There military they know that it's duty before what they want, therefore I think it was handled well. And personally with me, if they would have slept together while in the same chain of command, I would have lost a whole heck of a lot of respect for the characters.
*sneaks out*

I agree with you on the handling of the Sam/Jack UST, I think they trod a very fine line and maybe sometimes wavered a little too far in one direction or another, but it's a fundamental part of this ship that both characters are too honourable to act on their feelings.

I don't know what to think. Sam, since she seemed to have more interest in finding someone to love and didn't seem to know where her heart was quite a lot of the time, probably did date. Jack, I'm not so sure about. It's kind of logical to assume that he would, from our perspective, since he's so um, attractive, but I'm not sure.

For one thing, it seems to me that he was always the one being pursued. With Laira, it took months though she was obviously interested from day one, and then there's Anise, where she asks if there's someone else he's loyal to and he doesn't deny it. And I keep thinking of that picture of Charlie and Sara he still had in his house in LC. I don't think the man lets go of his feelings very easily, and I think he decided he wanted Sam. After D & C, there's no one until Kerry, when he had every reason to think Sam was a lost cause. He's too nice of a guy to date someone with no intention of it going anywhere, and it's kind of pointless for him. Furthermore, how many times did he go up to the cabin alone, or beg someone to go with him? A lot. That much we do know. At the very least, he wanted to get out of town every chance he could.

Then there's that horrible scene in Chimera where Sam says:
"You know how it is. Usually you don't let it bother you because you know that they couldn't cope with the truth anyway." And Jack says, "Usually" in this way that's a little sarcastic. As if it usually never happens to him.

So I don't know. I'm actually inclined to think at the most Jack might have had a few one-night stands. And at his age, he might have figured out they're not all that great, either.

Edit: And that's one of the reasons why we can be pretty sure Jack and Sam are together now. They haven't shipped her with anyone else since Threads. Though I'm sure they desperately wanted to.

Yes, exactly, agreed on all points

[Petra]

Going back to yuor question about the show in general being sexless, I've just remembered a post I did a couple of days ago about the number of episodes devoted to relationships of the original 4 Im reposting it here:


"Well, I started to think about how many episodes SG-1 had devoted to their personal relationships, and here's what I came up with.

Jack: 5 episodes in total
Cold Lazarus (season 1) - his ex-wife
Brief Candle (season 1) - Khyntia, short, sex-based romance
A hundred days (season 3) - Laira, a quite serious, if short, relationship
Divide and Conquer (season 4) - Anise/Freya (sort of)
Threads (season 8) - Kerry, brief romance

Daniel: 8 in total
CotG (season 1) - Sha're
Need (season 2)- Shayla (he wasn't exactly himself, but he did have a romance/sex with her)
Secrets (season 2)- Sha're
FiaD (season 3)- Sha're - the end of the arch
Past and Present (season 3)- Ky'ra (I wouldn't call it a romance, but they had sex)
The Curse (season 4)- Sarah (and subsequently Chimera)
Icon (season 8) - don't remember the lady's name
and then we get Vala..

Teal'c: 9 in total
Bloodlines (season 1) - his wife
Family (season 2) - his wife
Crossroads (season 4) - Shan'ouc
Threshold (season 5) - his wife
Redemption (season 6) - we never see her on-screen, but Teal'c's part in the ep is devoted to mourning her death
The Changeling (season 6)- Shan'ouc
Birthright (season 7)- Ishta
Affinity (season 8)- Krista
Sacrifaces (season 8)- Ishta

Sam: 8 before Pete, with him - 12
First Commandment (season 1) - Jonas Hanson
Enigma (season 1) - Narim (and consequently BTF)
Tok'ra (season 2) - Martouf (and Divide and Conquer)
Ascension (season 5) - Orlin
2001 (season 5) - Joe (and 2010, although as AT it shouldn't count)
Forsaken (season 6) - Aiden Corso (just a flirt, but still..)
Chimera (season 7) - Pete (and New Order, Affinity and Threads)

I did it for myself, but then I thought the results are interesting enough to share, and i doubt there will be better opportunity than "Chimera".

I didn't include "middle" episodes in various ships, like e.g Pretense with Narim, or Jolinar's Memories with Martouf, or Summit/Last Stand with Sarah, because I felt the ship in them was absolutely minimal and the episodes were about something else altogether. In the end I counted only those where a relationship was shown on-screen and lasted more than one short scene.
Oh, and no Sam/Jack ship, because that would have been too difficoult for me to do. And I also didn't include the last 2 seasons, as I only watched them once and don't remember too well."

Daniel and Teal'c got roughly an episode per season, Sam more, thanks to Pete, and Jack was a little left out, it seems.
Overall I can see why people consider Stargate "sexless", 1 episode per year - or more accurately part of the one episode per year isn't really much. It's certainly much, much less, also in terms of what is shown on-screen, than in 90% of shows on tv nowadays.

[Petra]

Once SG-1 started really rolling, hitting season 3 and onwards, I think TPTB realised that at some point they had to do something about the Sam/Jack UST (D&C) but keep it on the safe side of the regs while they were at it. For shippyness, I think season 6 ranks pretty high and if I"m right this was in about 2000? What about the internet then? Was GW around at this point (or the site that came before it?). Was fandom an online thing by this point?

Season 6 was in 2002. Season 4 in 2000, and yes, the fandom very much already existed on-line back then. I think GW also, although I found it a bit later. I remember there was a huge commotion on-line after D&C aired, shippers were rejoiced, the antis threatened to stop watching the show, the producers were making promises that "Jack and Sam won't be going off-world holding hands" etc. If I remember correctly the whole issue of ship was brought up specifically in POV in response to fans' demands on Internet..I think fandom had a huge influence on how S/J ship was handled..

[Petra]

*sneaks in*

I'm agreeing with this to a certain extent, I think that Jack was waaay too sexless, i think he wouldn't have gone more then 5 years without being with a woman, I'm not buying that. And i think Sam would maybe have been with someone before Pete.

But on the Sam/Jack thing, I think TPTB handled that well, yeah there was the UST, but I don't think that they'd sleep with each other. Personally i think their too honorable for that. They know that they're both needed on SG-1 and that both of them (as well as Daniel and Teal'c) were the only chance they had of stopping the bad guys. They knew what would happen if they were caught sleeping together, Sam's career would have been in shambles and people would question every promotion that she ever got. And I don't think that Jack is that kind of man that would do that to her. He cares about her, he doesn't want to hurt her, and by sleeping with her in the long run that could very well hurt her a lot. There military they know that it's duty before what they want, therefore I think it was handled well. And personally with me, if they would have slept together while in the same chain of command, I would have lost a whole heck of a lot of respect for the characters.
*sneaks out*

I agree with this. The fact that they behaved so honourably was a huge draw to me too. I admire them for it. However VSS asked if we found it believable, and while I adore this part of their relationship I don't think it's believable. They really are only humans.

Besides, as I mentioned earlier, there were situations in the show when they either didn't know their identities, like in Beneath the Surface, or were under alien influence, like in Upgrades.

Armbands not only "made them stupid" - it seems to me they annihilated their self-control to a degree. In the whole episode they do pretty much what they want, without thinking about consequences. I'm not saying they slept together or anything, I'm just pointing out that the argument about not hurting each other careers, honour etc. probably wasn't that much important in their altered minds and it was an excellent opportunity to bring up UST.

And in BtS they had no idea who they were; instead they were attracted to each other and in my mind - they were a couple. Adding to this that the original script had them as lovers, and it was changed only because TPTB didn't want to aggrevate the antis too much...as I said, personally I believe they, not being themselves, crossed the line.

All in all I also love how the ship was handled (except the whole Pete thing), and in no way was I suggesting that they should have broken the regs. I wouldn't respect them as much as I do if they had a romance while on SG-1. What I'm saying is that I would find them more believable (and angsty ) if they unintentionally slipped a few times, acted on their feelings in some dire circumstances, maybe comforted each other after Abyss for example, and then made the mutual decision to step back, honouring their duty.

Okay, enough of this rambling. It's all pretty much useless since the show is over anyway, I like the result overall and there are always fanfics..

[gater62]

Since when does being an adult mean you have to be involved in a sexual relationship? I really don't see Sam and Jack sleeping around with anyone without it being a serious relationship and until the whole Pete/Kerry thing we didn't see it. I just happen to think that they were both "celibate" especially since they were pretty much committed to each other if only in their own minds. *don't throw things at me*

[Luvnjoe]

Since when does being an adult mean you have to be involved in a sexual relationship? I really don't see Sam and Jack sleeping around with anyone without it being a serious relationship and until the whole Pete/Kerry thing we didn't see it. I just happen to think that they were both "celibate" especially since they were pretty much committed to each other if only in their own minds. *don't throw things at me*

I happen to agree.

[Regularamanda]

Since when does being an adult mean you have to be involved in a sexual relationship? I really don't see Sam and Jack sleeping around with anyone without it being a serious relationship and until the whole Pete/Kerry thing we didn't see it. I just happen to think that they were both "celibate" especially since they were pretty much committed to each other if only in their own minds. *don't throw things at me*

I agree. Though I think maybe they both would have tried to date other people, I couldn't see them having a one night stand. But then again they cared for each other, so I think for a few years at least that they wouldn't have dated anyone...maybe one or two dates (without doing anything guttery) with someone else that we just never saw.