Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[fems]

The thing is that I'm not totally convinced the Atlantis Expedition answers solely to the IOA. I find it hard to believe this is true considering the military presence and eventually military leadership (by Sam). In my opinion it would also fall under HWS. Especially considering all the stupid mistakes the IOA have made in the past, I doubt they'd let a civilian oversight committee order around a colonel in the USAF responsible for Atlantis and all the people (civilians, aliens and military) present. After all, if anything would go wrong the blame would go to the USAF.

[hedwig]

Though you know, I think if Sam did remain celibate after Jack died, it would totally count as spinsterhood, and she would totally only be half a person But she's not half a person because she's single, but rather because her soulmate died. hehe... way to make a full circle there, huh?

Spinster

According to the New Oxford American Dictionary, the term "originated in a town just east of Edinburgh, Scotland called Tranent."[1]

The term originally identified girls and women who spun wool. In medieval times, this was one of the few livelihoods available to a woman in order to live independently of a male wage. During the Elizabethan era, spinster came to indicate a woman or girl of marriageable age who was unwilling or unable to marry. "Spinster" also evolved into a legal term to describe an unmarried woman, commonly heard in the banns of marriage of the Church of England when the prospective bride is formally described as a "spinster of this parish".[4]

By the 19th century, the term evolved to mean women who were so finicky, that they refused to marry. During that century "middle-class spinsters, as well as their married peers, took ideals of love and marriage very seriously, and ... spinsterhood was indeed often a consequence of their adherence to those ideals. ... They remained unmarried not because of individual shortcomings but because they didn't find the one 'who could be all things to the heart.'"[5]

During that same century, one editorial in the fashion publication Peterson's Magazine encouraged women to remain choosy in selecting a mate — even at the price of never marrying. The editorial, titled "Honorable Often to Be an Old Maid," advised women: "Marry for a home! Marry to escape the ridicule of being called an old maid? How dare you, then, pervert the most sacred institution of the Almighty, by becoming the wife of a man for whom you can feel no emotions of love, or respect even?"[6]

[selene0789]

The thing is that I'm not totally convinced the Atlantis Expedition answers solely to the IOA. I find it hard to believe this is true considering the military presence and eventually military leadership (by Sam). In my opinion it would also fall under HWS. Especially considering all the stupid mistakes the IOA have made in the past, I doubt they'd let a civilian oversight committee order around a colonel in the USAF responsible for Atlantis and all the people (civilians, aliens and military) present. After all, if anything would go wrong the blame would go to the USAF.

That's true. And overall, Homeworld Security would have a finger in Atlantis in general, since Atlantis is an Earth expedition. But wasn't the whole thing derived from the post in the Arctic, which the IOA assumed control of to prevent any one country from claiming it as it's own? And since it's an international expedition, the IOA would have a larger role in it than it would in any other Stargate-related operation...

And I'm pretty sure it was the IOA's decision to replace Carter with Woolsey. But I'm not positive... Hm... *scampers off to watch S&R*

[selene0789]

Spinster

Are you the one I had the "perjorative" exchange with? I get confused between this thread and the 2.0, but yeah... I have no idea if your post is supposed to be a rebuke, a joke, or purely educational...

But I did not know that the term came from town east of Edinburgh, so I did learn something, either way!

[fems]

Though you know, I think if Sam did remain celibate after Jack died, it would totally count as spinsterhood, and she would totally only be half a person But she's not half a person because she's single, but rather because her soulmate died. hehe... way to make a full circle there, huh?

Call me cynical, but I don't really believe in a soul mate completing you and making you a whole person. You are a person and when you fall in love with someone that (you think) is the one, that's great and maybe you complement each other. But I don't think that losing your "soul mate" makes you less than a whole person.

I think Alanis sings it best:

... And I don't want to be your other half, I believe one and one make two...

[hedwig]

Are you the one I had the "perjorative" exchange with? I get confused between this thread and the 2.0, but yeah... I have no idea if your post is supposed to be a rebuke, a joke, or purely educational...

But I did not know that the term came from town east of Edinburgh, so I did learn something, either way!

I don't remember any exchange about "pejorative", so I'd have to say that wasn't me.

And the quote was just a way to show what the word means. There might be a teeny, tiny little rebuke because I don't think it's appropriate to lump a certain segment of females into that word because they're single.

[Kunoichi]

Call me cynical, but I don't really believe in a soul mate completing you and making you a whole person. You are a person and when you fall in love with someone that (you think) is the one, that's great and maybe you complement each other. But I don't think that losing your "soul mate" makes you less than a whole person.

Agreed!

And the quote was just a way to show what the word means. There might be a teeny, tiny little rebuke because I don't think it's appropriate to lump a certain segment of females into that word because they're single.

I think the problem with the word 'spinster' is that it has come to be used as an insult to older, single women by people who think that a woman who isn't married with kids by the time she is 25 is some sort of a failure. The term 'bachelor' hasn't really developed into that sort of meaning, once again highlighting the double standards that exist between perceptions of male and female behaviour.

[selene0789]

And the quote was just a way to show what the word means. There might be a teeny, tiny little rebuke because I don't think it's appropriate to lump a certain segment of females into that word because they're single.

Yeah, no, I understand.

It was a continuation of another conversation, where spinsterhood was brought up. It must have been in the 2.0 thread. Dangit! So confusing!

But yeah, I don't lump singles into labels like that. Unless it's "free spirits" or something equally glorious like that. Cuz otherwise I would have been calling myself a spinster (NOT TRUE). Singledom is where it's at!

[hedwig]

I think the problem with the word 'spinster' is that it has come to be used as an insult to older, single women by people who think that a woman who isn't married with kids by the time she is 25 is some sort of a failure. The term 'bachelor' hasn't really developed into that sort of meaning, once again highlighting the double standards that exist between perceptions of male and female behaviour.

Exactly. Thank you.

[hedwig]

But yeah, I don't lump singles into labels like that. Unless it's "free spirits" or something equally glorious like that. Cuz otherwise I would have been calling myself a spinster (NOT TRUE). Singledom is where it's at!

I like "free spirits". That would be me!

[selene0789]

Call me cynical, but I don't really believe in a soul mate completing you and making you a whole person. You are a person and when you fall in love with someone that (you think) is the one, that's great and maybe you complement each other. But I don't think that losing your "soul mate" makes you less than a whole person.

But there's the kicker, isn't it? All I know is that I've seen people lose their husbands/wives/best friends, etc, and they just... aren't the same. And yes, in some cases, less of what they used to be. I'm not a shrink, so I couldn't tell you if it was just depression, and I'm not a psychic so I can't tell you it was them losing that vital part of themselves. But I just know that sometimes, people just don't come back after a loss like that.

I guess it's just one of those things you'd have to interpret on your own. I don't think anyone is going to agree one way or another as to whether Sam would move on if Jack died, or become that so-called spinster.

I think I'm the type of girl who would read any variety of fanfiction on the premise, and accept any and all of them as distinctly possible, if the fic is written right There are some pretty amazing Character Death fics out there, let me tell yah!

[muziqaz]

Well, at this point, do we even know that they're actually physically pursuing a relationship? I mean, even years later in Atlantis, she's like "oh, well, he's there, I'm here, it's all very complicated"... If it was complicated then, imagine what it must've been like in the middle of Season... 10, was it? Or 9. Whichever. Either way, I mean, in my head I'm thinking that they may be trying to make things work, but it's far from being a done deal. And I imagine it being such a logistical nightmare that they'd both be wondering "is it even worth it?" Obviously, it totally is worth it, or else us fans wouldn't be here, but still, even so... you know they gotta be thinking it.

And yes, the "dead alien in my head made me do it" defense goes a long way. But I'm cool with it, cuz JR Bourne is HOT. I'd wanna kiss him too, if he showed up through my Stargate

This is how I think about situations like that:
She knows she has feelings for Jack, she knows he is one person she would trust, no matter what, she knows he is her soul mate. You can try work out the physical relationship thingy and fail on that, but it would not change the feelings. I always thought that feelings and understanding between each other is the MAIN thing in relationship. You can have a relationship, but don't have a mutual feelings like that, and you can have mutual feelings and not pursue the relationship and feel good about it.
In a perfect world what Jack and Sam have does not need to have physical relationship, they don't need to announce the world and to themselves that hey, today we are boyfriend and girlfriend, tomorrow we will have to be husband and wife. Ideally you wouldn't need that, you would know when the time comes that you are both together and feeling good about it, doesn't matter where you both are. I know it might sound too utopian, but it is not far from todays world were couples get together just for the heck of it that they think they have to have a husband or have wife or must have children before certain age, or must do what they were told to do by traditions. If half of those people just stopped and looked at it from different perspective the world would be nicer place.
Who knows maybe I am wrong,and maybe because of thinking like that I am single for the time being, but I am happy about this point of view.
So my point is, Sam knows her feelings go to Jack thus those scenes were strange to me. It shouldn't matter if they pursue the getting together thing. And that deleted scene from Atlantis episode, well I think it was just a girly talk. You wouldn't say when asked that you have a spiritual bond with someone, so it is all good, you would say that it is complicated just to maintain the dialogue
This is just my point of view, and I am sure it is different than 99% of the rest of the world, but I am fine with it.
I think you don't need to say 'I love you' to express how you feel about someone

P.S. do you have a stargate? Cool

[fems]

Well, of course losing a loved one changes you especially if it was your "soul mate". But to me that still doesn't mean you're less than a person.

[Kunoichi]

But there's the kicker, isn't it? All I know is that I've seen people lose their husbands/wives/best friends, etc, and they just... aren't the same. And yes, in some cases, less of what they used to be. I'm not a shrink, so I couldn't tell you if it was just depression, and I'm not a psychic so I can't tell you it was them losing that vital part of themselves. But I just know that sometimes, people just don't come back after a loss like that.

But for every person who doesn't recover from the death of their soul mate and is never happy again, there is someone who does, who moves on and lives life to the full and take opportunities they would have overlooked in the past. I've seen both happen. It's just down to the individual how they handle the loss of a loved one.

Well, of course losing a loved one changes you especially if it was your "soul mate". But to me that still doesn't mean you're less than a person.

True and change doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[fems]

But for every person who doesn't recover from the death of their soul mate and is never happy again, there is someone who does, who moves on and lives life to the full and take opportunities they would have overlooked in the past. I've seen both happen. It's just down to the individual how they handle the loss of a loved one.

Very true. To stay on topic; Jack lost his son, he was devastated and his marriage to Sara (which apparently was 'the greatest' prior to losing Charlie) didn't survive it either. Yet, he managed to deal with his loss and eventually found a new family with SG-1 (and the SGC) and got together with Sam.