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    Originally posted by fems View Post
    While I understand your reasoning, I find it harder to believe they would screw the frat regs. After all, Sam is a very by-the-book officer and while Jack takes some liberty with certain orders, he's also professed his love for the air force and I don't think he'd 'endanger' Sam by starting a relationship with her while they are in the same chain of command (which is after Sam returns to the SGC, or even while she's at Area 51 since she was heading up Stargate R&D and that might directly report to HWS). It would ruin nearly ten years of hard work for Sam trying to prove herself in the military/SGC, since she's been under Jack's command from the start and he would have recommended her for promotions to Hammond (and even promoted her himself in season 8).
    I'm not saying they would simply screw the frat regs, as I agree with you to an extent on that. However as it's never actually stipulated how Area 51 fits in with the whole scheme of how things are run, I like to think that they found a legal (and preferably not frowned upon) loop hole somewhere. After all wasn't the position of Head of Homeworld Security purely devised so that Hammond would still have a role within the structure? And in SGU, Homeworld Security was absorbed by Homeworld Command, which appears to fully encompasse all the different fractures of the Stargate verse. Maybe he was limited in what fractions he had input to? There is certainly a difference between the two.

    Comment


      Actually, as far as I'm aware the change from HWS to HWC was simply in the name. Hammond, as director of HWS was entrusted with the oversight of all things relating to Earth's defense including the facility in Antarctica, the BC-303 and BC-304 programs, and the SGC.

      Even if Jack and Sam started 'dating' after they both transferred (to HWS and Area 51 respectively), they would have been forced to "terminate" their romantic relationship once she went back to the SGC, since Jack would be her CO's CO. And even if that would be okay with everyone involved turning a blind eye or something, Jack would still be Sam's direct CO once she took command of Atlantis (and consequently the Hammond).

      And I don't think the HWS position was created to give Hammond a job. After all, why would he need to be promoted out of the SGC in the first place? Not to mention that Hammond had been hoping to retire soon when he took command of the SGC, so I would think he'd be glad to finally spend more time with his granddaughters if they wanted him to leave the SGC so Jack could take over. Even after officially retiring, Hammond was still used in some sort of advisory position to the President. If, like you said, HWS was merely devised so that Hammond would still have a role within the structure, they could have just skipped creating the new division at the Pentagon and simply retain him in the same advisory position he had after retiring.

      I believe HWS was created out of necessity, since there had been so much changes and more alien technology etc since they started the SGC. Not only Area 51 was now actively researching/backwards engineering alien technology, but Earth was creating their own fleet of spaceships, they had command of an alien city in a different galaxy etc etc. At first just the SGC reporting directly to the President/JCS would have been okay, but considering the increased workload over the years I think they needed someone other than the President/JCS to take command of those structures (and then report to them when necessary). But that would have been illogical in the beginning of the program, since no one had any real experience and Hammond seemed to do fine underneath the mountain. But after seven years and all their discoveries, he could have used something less stressful (with all the alien invasions) and had the experience to deal with all the other departments too.
      Last edited by fems; July 26, 2011, 04:15 AM.
      Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
      Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
      On FFnet or AO3


      My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

      Comment


        Isn't the IOA in charge of Atlantis?

        Anyway I do think they were married by the time she's on the Hammond though. Maybe even Atlantis. As I said, I can see them getting married, just not straight away that's all.

        This is why we need frigging confirmation from TPTB! Because although I know what points you are making, and in some ways I do agree with it, I just can't see them jumping into something as serious as marriage when it took them so long to work up the courage to even talk about 'them'.

        Career wise, on paper it makes sense, but emotionally it doesn't, for me

        Comment


          I understand

          As for the IOA in charge of Atlantis... I'm not entirely sure. I know they were in control when the expedition started and Weir was in command, but somehow I doubt the military/JCS/President would allow a civilian organization to have complete control over Atlantis, especially with all the military personnel stationed there as well. I've always found that hard to believe. I'd rather think that the IOA, which is also stationed at the Pentagon, has a say in certain missions/situations and funding, but collaborates with HWS/HWC who is in charge of the military side of things. Especially after Sam took command of Atlantis, as I believe it was the IOA who requested a more military presence after all the events that led up to Weir's um, status. But it's entirely possible I've read too many fics and am confusing canon with fanon
          Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
          Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
          On FFnet or AO3


          My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

          Comment


            Originally posted by dipsofjazz View Post
            Whilst I enjoyed Continuum as a good old-fashioned romp, I do have problems with it.

            I wish there had been much more Jack/RDA in the film.

            I agree that the team would have tried to contact each other. It seems out of character for them to give up.
            We get to see what Daniel and Mitchell do - actually, I felt we got far too much of Mitchell - but what do we see Sam doing? Shopping.

            I also didn't like BB playing Mitchell's grandfather, as it took me out of the story.

            Overall, I did like the film, and really wish we could have seen the third movie with more Jack. (and confirmation that S/J are happy together.)
            Yes!
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            Comment


              I believe that Atlantis is divided between military and civilian command. The IOA has control of the overall expedition. Sam was selected by the IOA with a recommendation from Jack to be leader of Atlantis, per the deleted scene in Reunion. Sheppard as the military commander of Atlantis reports to Sam as head of Atlantis, but has an AF chain of command as well. (At least in the early years, that appears to be through the SGC and Landry, as seen in S2, The Intruder. Later Jack and HWS/C appear to take more of a role.) In any event, I don't think Sam was back under Jack's direct CoC until she took command of The Hammond.

              Although it's never specified I think HWC is very different from HWS. (Something I think was supposed to be clarified in the third movie.) First, you have to understand how these positions are created and can exist in the US Government. The President can't create a division of the DoD out of whole cloth. (That must be legislated by Congress.) And the structure of the DoD is very different from other executive departments. There's no way General Hammond's position could have been established in the way it was, in the time frame it was to be anything other than a presidential advisory position within the WH. It makes perfect sense that it would take another five years to establish a permanant command within the structure of the DoD.

              I don't think getting married right away takes an emotional toll. I think they would be anxious to make it permanent and legal. And really, given that they are physically seperated, the extra emotional and psychological connectivity derived from a marriage I would think was a comfort to them. It doesn't mean that there relationship was stagnant. No matter how long you hold off on marriage it's still an adjustment. Personally, I think they would take the plunge. I know Sam tends to be more cautious than Jack, but I actually see her being the one least likely to hold back in this case because she knows what she wants and is going to have it. And once Sam is determined, there's no stopping her.

              Comment


                Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                Personally, I think they would take the plunge. I know Sam tends to be more cautious than Jack, but I actually see her being the one least likely to hold back in this case because she knows what she wants and is going to have it. And once Sam is determined, there's no stopping her.
                My sentiments, too.

                In fact, in my own mind, I can see a little scenario where they've been spending a week together (soon after the fishing scene, and before Sam gets recalled to the SGC), and they just look at each other and simultaneously say "Let's get married!" They both laugh at how in synch they are, and go off to the Justice of the Peace and get hitched. Okay, so not everybody would agree with that. But in my mind, that's how it could happen. And later they could have another ceremony for just a few of their very closest friends.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                  In any event, I don't think Sam was back under Jack's direct CoC until she took command of The Hammond.
                  I'm still not entirely convinced about this, especially not with her stint in Area 51 thrown in the mix. Landry was on the phone with Jack begging for Sam's return to the SGC so I assume she was his to reassign and considering she was heading the Stargate R&D department, I think it's possible she directly reported to HWS. And Landry obviously needed Jack's permission, either as her CO or his own.

                  Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                  Although it's never specified I think HWC is very different from HWS. (Something I think was supposed to be clarified in the third movie.)
                  Yes, it would have been nice to hear more about it instead of just being announced in SGU.


                  Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                  First, you have to understand how these positions are created and can exist in the US Government. The President can't create a division of the DoD out of whole cloth. (That must be legislated by Congress.) And the structure of the DoD is very different from other executive departments. There's no way General Hammond's position could have been established in the way it was, in the time frame it was to be anything other than a presidential advisory position within the WH. It makes perfect sense that it would take another five years to establish a permanant command within the structure of the DoD.
                  I don't pretend to be aware of such procedures, but fact is that Jack as head of the SGC reported to Hammond at HWS (since he was addressing his resignation to Hammond). Landry was reporting to Jack at HWS, proven by him begging for Sam's return on the phone.

                  Hmm, I was just checking The Fourth Horseman to see if there was a mention of HWS/superiors and came across this:

                  HARRIMAN
                  And, according to General Hammond's office, our allies have expressed concerns about the cover story, specifically, how long we can continue to maintain it. They've requested a meeting with you.

                  But that's season nine, isn't that supposed to be Jack's office since Hammond supposedly retired? And Hammond also made an appearance in the episodes, so would that be simply in his advisory position (that apparently also provides him with an office)? Or maybe he's not completely retired yet as Jack's settling into the new command? I'm thoroughly confused as Sam also calls him by his rank and he doesn't correct her/say he's retired, but he is wearing a regular suit.



                  Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                  I know Sam tends to be more cautious than Jack, but I actually see her being the one least likely to hold back in this case because she knows what she wants and is going to have it. And once Sam is determined, there's no stopping her.
                  I agree and have actually used that in a fic once. Besides, Sam is probably trying to avoid too much thinking or a long engagement, since those haven't worked out for her in the past
                  Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
                  Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
                  On FFnet or AO3


                  My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by fems View Post
                    Besides, Sam is probably trying to avoid too much thinking or a long engagement, since those haven't worked out for her in the past
                    Wasn't her whole relationship with Pete about 18 months and their engagement about half that? To me that's not long but maybe I'm just old fashioned?

                    I actually thought the whole meeting Pete, getting engaged, setting a date for the wedding went quite quick, but then this is tv land...

                    I do agree though that once they decide to get married, they would just do it.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Kate1013 View Post
                      Wasn't her whole relationship with Pete about 18 months and their engagement about half that? To me that's not long but maybe I'm just old fashioned?

                      I actually thought the whole meeting Pete, getting engaged, setting a date for the wedding went quite quick, but then this is tv land...

                      I do agree though that once they decide to get married, they would just do it.
                      Season 7, Episode 15, "Chimera" - met Pete
                      Season 8, Episode 7, "Affinity" - got engaged to Pete
                      Season 8, Episode 18, "Threads" - broke up with Pete


                      Comment


                        Maybe... I guess it's a "cultural" difference; around here, we don't really do those over the top weddings that have to be planned a year in advance or something. So I guess what I see as a long engagement would be relatively short for the USA. I did think he was proposing way too soon though.


                        EDIT:
                        Hm, yes, but in Chimera it was obvious they had already been dating for a (little?) while, with how comfortable they were with each other. But still way too soon to propose.
                        Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
                        Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
                        On FFnet or AO3


                        My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

                        Comment


                          I grew up in a world where people meet, get engaged, and marry within 3-4 months. Anything else seems long to me.

                          That being said, any egagement to was too soon IMO. The time frame I'm think of is sometime around when pigs fly and hell freezes over.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by fems View Post
                            EDIT:
                            Hm, yes, but in Chimera it was obvious they had already been dating for a (little?) while, with how comfortable they were with each other. But still way too soon to propose.
                            I think that was a writer error, since I don't think they had known each other for more than a week by that time. In "Death Knell", Sam tells Jacob that they had only found the "device" a month ago (in "Evolution"). Right after that came "Grace" where Sam's subconscious told her to get a life (more or less), and the infamous infirmary scene where she called Jack "Jack", and he said "excuse me?", and Sam misinterpreted it (IMO). She was missing on in "Grace" for several days and I doubt Janet would have let her out of the infirmary for a couple more days. Then we have "Fallout" (on Jonas Quinn's planet), which I'm thinking must have taken up several more days or a week, leaving us maybe two weeks before "Death Knell", and "Chimera" comes between "Fallout" and "Death Knell". Given Sam's confusion in "Grace" and other stuff, I personally don't see her knowing Pete too much before "Chimera".

                            Evolution - finding telchak device
                            Grace - missing for several days and a few more in the infirmary
                            Fallout - maybe a week
                            Chimera - has date(s) with Pete
                            Death Knell - a month after Evolution

                            I'm thinking the writers didn't give much thought to the time frame they were writing about.

                            They did pretty much the same thing with Jack and Kerry. In "Citizen Joe" Jack says he's meeting with an "agent Johnson", which doesn't sound to me like he's even met her or knows the agent is a woman. Two episodes later we see them waking up in his bed, looking very, very comfortable with each other, as if they'd been a couple for way longer than a month. "Reckoning" was the only episode between "Citizen Joe" and "Threads".

                            Comment


                              As for the CoC after Hammond leaves, I don't think the PTB ever really solidified it in their own minds. They did whatever was convenient, especially based on actor availability. For example, in Fourth Horseman General Jumper (USAF CoS) was supposed to make a return appearance. When his schedule changed (guess he had a couple of wars to fight, go figure) DSD was asked to come in last minute.

                              I think the CoC is whatever you can justify, and their are a lot of options. I've worked it out so that it makes sense to me according to my own understanding and experience.

                              Comment


                                hedwig
                                Yep, I agree. But I don't see Sam being so comfortable with Pete after one or two dates, let alone jumping in bed with him. When I started reading your post I immediately thought about Jack and Kerry. A shame that the show's time frame isn't always correct.


                                hlndncr
                                One of many things they got wrong after season 8
                                Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
                                Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
                                On FFnet or AO3


                                My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

                                Comment

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