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    Originally posted by Petra View Post
    SGU

    I really try very hard not to bring up SGU in SG-1 folder but I can't let such comment slide. As a fan who was deeply disappointed with the last 2 seasons of SG-1 and with most of SGA (particularly its last 2 seasons too) and considers SGU a return to the top form and quality that made me Stargate fan in the first place I can't stress how much I disagree with your assessment. What's more, SGU is actually the only Stargate show that has been using the stones in a consistent manner.

    As to "transcorporeal sexual abuse", as you call it, there's no such thing. And I'll stop here, before I go off on another rant about science-fiction, tolerance, morality derived from religion and sex. Yep, shutting up now. *nods to herself*
    Obviously this isn't the place to argue the relative merits, or lack thereof, in SGU. And I wouldn't do it anyway because we would never agree. But if you are suggesting that I'm an intolerant religious bigot because I have moral standard that do not include using other people's bodies (or even my own for that matter) for gratuitous lesbian or extra-marital sex then I think that's uncalled for. My views are based on my moral principles guided by my religious beliefs, but I think that the ethical issues involved go beyond any individual set of principles. It's not the device of the communication stones per se that I find offensive - as I said I think they were initially a quirky and interesting storytelling device. It's how they were later trasmuted and abused that disgusts me.

    That's a first one. I don't really see any Baal loathing from either Sam or the other characters, nothing that goes beyond your standard "you are an arrogant, pompous a**" hatred anyway, and I miss it. I don't know how either one of them could be so casual around Baal knowing what he did to Jack. What's worse, SG-1's attitude towards him became even more flippant in the last 2 seasons.
    Indeed I would have liked to see more loathing or reaction of somekind by Jack and the rest of the team toward Baal. But knowing the history and viewing the characters as I do I choose to see that undercurrent in there reactions.

    I don't like the way Baal went from chillingly evil in Abyss to laughably farcical in later seasons, and that's yet another reason I pretend like the last two seasons don't exist much of the time.

    The 3rd quibble is that there's no Rak'nor! He's my favourite Jaffa character apart from Teal'c and Bra'tac, he's been with the rebellion from the start and it feels wrong not to have him for the grand finale and victory. Seriously, WTF? Also, with all due respect, Obi Ndefo could act circles around CJ's brother.
    I didn't mind the presence of CJ's brother, but I also missed Rak'nor. But then I also would liked to have seen Rya'c and Ishta (or at least someone from the Hak'tyl).

    Comment


      Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
      Obviously this isn't the place to argue the relative merits, or lack thereof, in SGU. And I wouldn't do it anyway because we would never agree.
      That's true and fair.

      But if you are suggesting that I'm an intolerant religious bigot because I have moral standard that do not include using other people's bodies (or even my own for that matter) for gratuitous lesbian or extra-marital sex then I think that's uncalled for.
      Huh? And when did I suggest this, exactly? All I said that was that morality and religion are closely tied and statements like yours tend to make me rant, which is caused by the overexposure to the statements you said made by certain people - not you. Maybe I should have added this clarification, I apologise for not doing so, but then, you shouldn't have jumped the gun so quickly either.

      My views are based on my moral principles guided by my religious beliefs, but I think that the ethical issues involved go beyond any individual set of principles. It's not the device of the communication stones per se that I find offensive - as I said I think they were initially a quirky and interesting storytelling device. It's how they were later trasmuted and abused that disgusts me.
      But that's the thing, IMO they were neither transmutted nor abused nor used to do something "disgusting" and the ethical issues involved are very much the case of one's individual set of principles. It's all subjective and depends on your own personal set of morals. If you can trash SGU and express your opinion why these things offend you I fail to see why I can't defend the show and say why they don't offend me. It's all relative. I respect your opinion, but I'd appreciate if you didn't make it sound like such definite, judgemental statement.

      Anyway, it's not the time nor place to have such discussions. I'll be taking my leave from this thread with the end of season 8, so please bear with me for the 3 episodes left. After that, have fun however you want to.
      There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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      awesome sig by Josiane

      Comment


        I'll be back with the Threads review shortly, but first...

        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
        First, great review! You highlighted most of my favorite moments. Regarding the closing moments with Sam and Jack, I think Jack cutting off Sam is more about Jack's way of handling loss. It reminded me a lot of how he acted in Revelations, Sam trying to talk to him about Daniel and Jack not wanting to hear it.
        And, to link this to the discussions about Jack always cutting Sam off when she tries to confront him with their feelings, it's basically Jack's automatic defence whenever he senses a conversation is going to get emotional/personal for him.

        I have to strongly disagree here, I think Sam was actually being very courageous regarding her decision post-Grace to move on from Jack. IMHO, Sam's dilemma in Grace was about opening herself to love in general, not just with Jack. Her focus on Jack was actually one of the factors that was holding her back, because hanging on to a 'what if' with him meant that she didn't have to try or risk her heart on anyone else.

        So to me post-Grace Sam had a few choices, 1) leave the team for a relationship with Jack, 2) continue on with the status quo, or 3) try for a relationship with someone else besides Jack.

        1) The only way a relationship between Sam and Jack would work post-Grace is if one or the other left the team/SGC. Not only would that not be practical for a show called 'Stargate SG-1', but IMHO that would have been the cowardly thing for either Sam and Jack to do, because it meant that they were putting their own personal desires above the needs of their team and the SGC. Like I've said before, I may be a non-shipper but the Sam/Jack relationship appeals to me because it was most often the characters' sense of honor and duty that were keeping them apart, not the convoluted machinations so often seen on series.

        2) One of the main revelations Sam had in Grace to me was that opening your heart to loving someone is worth the risk of getting hurt or losing them. For her to continue with the status quo post-Grace would mean to me that she hadn't taken that idea to heart and that she was still hiding behind her fears.

        3) This to me was the courageous choice for Sam to take post-Grace. Leaving the team for Jack would mean giving up her obligations to SG-1, while continuing with the status quo would mean she was still hiding behind her fear of getting hurt. By trying for a relationship with someone else, Sam was opening up her heart and confronting her fears while still respecting and honoring her obligations and commitment to her team and the SGC.

        Whether that relationship with someone else (Pete in this case) works out in the long-term is a different matter to me. The important thing was that she gave it a honest chance and she did it by broadening her personal life while still honoring her professional commitments, which is a balance that the other choices didn't have IMHO.
        Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
        I think fundamentally we disagree in what we interpret Sam discovered in Grace. For me, Sam realised in Grace that she deserved to be loved and recognised her need to be; that she hadn't truly risked her heart because she feared that love meant losing someone and that she had focused on what she had seen as an unattainable relationship with Jack because it was safe; that she had to move forward and risk her heart. But also that she loved Jack but didn't know how he felt; that she was scared to find out; that with the fantasy kiss, she really did want to be with him.

        Now, for me, if she didn't fundamentally love Jack, then yes, the whole message from Grace would be: stop hiding behind your attraction with Jack which has no possibility of going somewhere, go out into the real world and get something attainable.

        But because for me she did love Jack, then the message from Grace is actually: stop hiding, go and find out how the man feels, make your relationship attainable, and risk your heart on the man you love.

        Only Sam after she gets back to the real world, continues not to risk finding out how Jack feels about her and enters a relationship with Pete. To me, Sam simply stopped hiding behind what she thought was an unattainable relationship with Jack and instead hid behind an attainable relationship with Pete.

        How much of that is down to her sense of duty and commitment to the mission? To believing that to risk her heart on Jack, to truly find out how he feels would mean ramifications professionally that could endanger the mission? Well, I won't say that it wouldn't play into it all, and I agree that it makes the risk so much greater.

        But Sam makes the same mistake of assuming that it is either her relationship with Jack or having her job (she makes that jump in her hallucinatory conversation with him) but it's really not an either/or. Given the importance of both of them to the SGC, if they had agreed to try something between them and approached Hammond, yes SG1 as a team would have been separated (but let's not forget Daniel had already disappeared for a year and the team had functioned without him) but both Sam and Jack could still have worked at the SGC, still been in the Air Force and still saved the world. They just had to be honest about what they wanted.
        Strange as it may sound, but I agree with both of you on this! I'm going to talk about Sam's 'failure' in Grace in the Threads write-up (which is burning a hole in my hard drive as I speak ), but these posts give me the opportunity to kind of preface what I say there with a disclaimer. Personally I do see her decision not to fight for a relationship with Jack then as a failure, only because I see her having to put that decision 'right' in Threads, and because long-term, clearly, having a personal relationship with Jack is the 'goal that she has to achieve' in order to fully find grace and balance in her life (again as we see borne out in Threads). So that's me agreeing with Rachel and the view that the outcome of Grace is 'corrected' by Threads - in a sense of Sam's character development. (Excuse the excessive use of quotation marks there ). However, I don't think that Sam was wrong to interpret the events of Grace in the way that she did, from her point of view at that time, or to seek the relationship with Pete. As Evenstar said, choosing to leave SG1 and put her personal desires above her duty would have been cowardly, and also out of character for both her and Jack - neither of them would have felt they could hold their heads up if they effectively weakened Earth's defences in order to be together, IMO. So I guess I use the terms 'failure' and 'mistake' kind of technically, if the distinction I'm trying to draw makes any sense at all! And for that reason, I completely see both of your points and think they're both right
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          Originally posted by Petra View Post
          That's true and fair.



          Huh? And when did I suggest this, exactly? All I said that was that morality and religion are closely tied and statements like yours tend to make me rant, which is caused by the overexposure to the statements you said made by certain people - not you. Maybe I should have added this clarification, I apologise for not doing so, but then, you shouldn't have jumped the gun so quickly either.



          But that's the thing, IMO they were neither transmutted nor abused nor used to do something "disgusting" and the ethical issues involved are very much the case of one's individual set of principles. It's all subjective and depends on your own personal set of morals. If you can trash SGU and express your opinion why these things offend you I fail to see why I can't defend the show and say why they don't offend me. It's all relative. I respect your opinion, but I'd appreciate if you didn't make it sound like such definite, judgemental statement.

          Anyway, it's not the time nor place to have such discussions. I'll be taking my leave from this thread with the end of season 8, so please bear with me for the 3 episodes left. After that, have fun however you want to.
          I'm sorry I misinterpreted your statement, but I felt like I too needed to defend myself and my position. I have no problem with you or anyone disagreeing with me. But my statement was based on my judgment of the situation and I have no problem being definite about it.

          I certainly wasn't trying to chase anyone away. I enjoy reading your point of view and I hope you'll contribute whenever the discussion interests you.
          Last edited by hlndncr; 07 March 2011, 01:45 PM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by josiane View Post
            As Evenstar said, choosing to leave SG1 and put her personal desires above her duty would have been cowardly, and also out of character for both her and Jack - neither of them would have felt they could hold their heads up if they effectively weakened Earth's defences in order to be together, IMO.
            I may have used the term "cowardly" occasionally in reference to other aspects of the s/j ship, but in this instance, I think "selfish" might be a better word than "cowardly". When they have a choice between continuing in their respective jobs and helping to defend earth or pursuing a relationship with each other, it might seem rather selfish (to both of them) to choose a relationship over the security of earth.

            Comment


              Originally posted by hedwig View Post
              I may have used the term "cowardly" occasionally in reference to other aspects of the s/j ship, but in this instance, I think "selfish" might be a better word than "cowardly". When they have a choice between continuing in their respective jobs and helping to defend earth or pursuing a relationship with each other, it might seem rather selfish (to both of them) to choose a relationship over the security of earth.
              I'm sure that idea crossed their minds. After all, they were very dedicated to their duty, and had the idea of selfless sacrifice for country (and world) ingrained. But I also think that they had allowed their perceptions to narrow and be so confined by their problem that they failed to fully consider other options that would have let them fulfill their duty and still be together, which did ultimately happen.

              I think that happens to all of us from time to time. We get so caught up in our issues we fail to see alternate solutions.

              Comment



                Banner by Cags

                Uh... this is long

                Synopsis

                The one where Sam and Jack finally get their act together! Oh and Jacob dies, Jack briefly has a girlfriend, Teal'c and Bra'tac go on a wild goose chase across the galaxy, and Daniel spends a lot of time hanging out in the great diner in the sky with Oma and Anubis.

                Favourite scene/quote

                No brainer, this one

                Thank you, Sir.
                For what?
                For being here for me.
                Always



                Though on the quote side, Daniel's "I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity, please" always amuses me too.

                Analysis

                Threads is, as the title suggests, the episode where all the various storylines of the whole series are tied up. We've had the big climactic battle in Reckoning, but there's a lot still to sort out - Anubis is still kicking around, the last epsiodes' MacGuffin which could still end all life in the galaxy is still in existence, Daniel's dead (possibly), and as the opening 'previously on' sequence reminds us, there's still one other giant elephant in the room that could do with being acknowledged at last. Moebius may be a lot of fun, and we may also end up getting two whole more seasons and a couple of movies, but to me, Threads is the real series finale. By the end of the episode, all the storylines, both in terms of action and in terms of personal journeys, have been brought to a satisfying conclusion, and we leave our heroes able to ride off into the sunset/go fishing.

                There are three distinct plotlines within this episode, one for Teal'c, one for Daniel, and one for Sam and Jack together, all of which allow the four members of SG1 to complete their personal journeys. I'm going to structure this analysis by taking them individually, in that order, and in an Oz-like fashion*.

                *I know that how I'm going to match them up doesn't exactly correspond to other interpretations of who is who in the great SG1-Oz parallel, but this is the interpretation that suits my purposes here!

                I should also say, before I start, that obviously I know this isn't the end of the SG1 story, but at the time it was written they didn't know there was going to be a season 9 & 10, and this episode really feels like it's wrapping everything up for all four of them, leaving them in a good place with some hints about what might be next that don't necessarily end up happening when the band is got back together by Mitchell. My analysis of where each of them end up kind of depends on them 'ending up', so for the purposes of this write-up I'm kind of ignoring what does happen next in favour of what we might have assumed will happen next, had the series ended here, as I really think that's the purpose of the episode.

                Teal'c: Courage
                Teal'c's quest throughout the series has been all about securing freedom for the Jaffa from the Goa'uld, finding the collective courage to free themselves from oppression. It was his motivation in joining forces with SG1 in the first place, and all his main storylines have been linked with this struggle. His quest was largely achieved in Reckoning, with winning Dakara, but it's in this episode that we get to see what it means. The scene at the beginning where he and Bra'tac are made blood kin to all Jaffa, and there's that lovely line about no more kneeling to anyone, is his own personal moment of triumph. Of course, with the Ancient weapon still in existence, and Ba'al and Anubis still knocking about, there's a bit more work to do throughout the rest of the episode, and I think this storyline is designed to show a bit of the road ahead for Teal'c and the Jaffa. As Bra'tac says, it's now time for Teal'c to leave the Tau'ri and take up his place as a Jaffa leader, helping them stand on their own two feet and sort out their society as a free one, rather than a society of the enslaved, and this episode sets him up to do that. It shows though that he wouldn't leave Earth without some difficulty, because of the ties he has built up with his team over the past years, and that he is aware that this is quite a burden to take on. The Jaffa are not really ready to govern themselves effectively - the hot headed way they hare off to confront Anubis, leaving Dakara barely defended, demonstrates that as a society they have some growing up to do, as does their stubbornness about destroying the Ancient weapon. They are really living up to that old adage that the very young do not always do as they're told. They're positively giddy with freedom, and almost come a nasty cropper. Teal'c and Bra'tac are wise, but even they are full of Jaffa pride and allow that to cloud their judgement. They're lucky, but I think by the end of the episode they have learnt that they will need to tread carefully, and also that while they are deservedly proud of their new-found independence, they do still need their allies. It's always one thing to fight for freedom, but rarely do those fighting really consider what comes next, and here we see the Jaffa starting to realise that winning freedom is not the end, but the beginning.

                Daniel: Brain/Knowledge
                Daniel may have joined SG1 in order to find Sha're, but I think his real quest throughout the series and even going back to the movie has been for knowledge, and this is the quest we see come to fruition here. And even though his quest to find Sha're was all concluded quite a few seasons ago, it still set him on the path that leads to this, as it was her child that lead him to Oma and ascension and all things Ancient. Daniel's curiosity has always been his driving force and his weak point - much to Jack's frustration as he always wants to talk and ask questions and find answers - and it's largely what drove him to choose ascension the first time around (although admittedly, the only other option at that point was death!). However, as he learnt that time round, having all the knowledge in the universe is no use if you can't tell anybody or do anything about impending apocalypses. So being stuck in Oma's diner, being taunted from all sides by crypticness, Anubis, and The Ascended Times, is quite the torment (as is his shirt on our eyes, but nvm ). However, his brain and his mouth have also always been his greatest assets, and so here he is given the opportunity to save the universe by asking questions, piecing clues together, and then talking someone else into doing the right thing. For all the fighting in Reckoning, it's Daniel who actually prevents total annihilation, by persuading Oma to come down off her high horse when the Jaffa's hot-headedness left Anubis with the big red button - ultimate vindication of his method, actually. Daniel may have learnt an awful lot about the military and the value of fighting in his years on SG1 (and the very fact that he gets so frustrated with the Ancient's know-all-but-do-nothing approach is testament to that), but he has never lost his curiosity, and here we see that he has learnt that the two can be compatible and that the strongest of all is when they work hand-in-hand. And he is rewarded by getting to descend again, this time with his memories, to continue his life and (presumably) his quest for knowledge on the plane of existence where he can apply it too.

                cont...
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                  cont...


                  Sam and Jack: Heart and Home
                  As Sam and Jack's personal quests have become entangled over the course of the series, they share a concluding plotline in this episode. Jack's quest, away from any sense of honour or duty or saving the world, has been to find meaning in his life again after the loss of his son - to find a reason to live, a new family, and to regain the ability to love. It's probably not a quest he would ever admit to having been on, but we see the evolution of it throughout the series, from the legacy of the near-suicidal Jack in the movie, through dealing with the loss of Charlie and putting his marriage to Sarah behind him quite overtly in the first few seasons, actively choosing life when confronted with the alternative over and over again (usually because Sam has pleaded with him to do so), and his desperate care for his team, to the Jack we end up with, whose default mode is humour and levity, even when he's in pain. Whether you think Sam had anything to do with this really depends on whether you're a shipper or not - obviously I do, and I'd hold up Jack's own statement that he'd rather die than lose Sam as evidence for that. He's completely not suicidal now, he's found his reason to live, but if he were to lose Sam, he'd be back in that dark place. It's a pretty strong argument, IMO, that Sam is a large part of the reason why he's no longer suicidal, why he now wants to live.

                  As for Sam, she came into the Stargate Program with a desperate need to prove herself to her colleagues and superiors in the Air Force, and, as both she and Jacob say, she joined the Air Force largely in order to prove herself to her father. I mentioned the Sam as Soldier-Scientist-Woman theory in my write-up of Grace, and how her experience there is all about showing her that she has been neglecting her Woman aspect and should do something about that. Since that point, both she and Jack have failed quite badly in that respect! Sam of course started dating Pete, eventually accepting his proposal, and has found herself at the point in this episode where her wedding is looming and she's really not sure she's doing the right thing. She also tried to confront Jack about their feelings for one another on numerous occasions, but always in a hesitant and round-about fashion, and Jack's mistake since that time has been to cut her off every time she's tried. We get another example of that of course in this very episode, with that magnificently embarrassing scene in Jack's back yard, and if nothing else, it's a reminder of everything that's not right with both of their personal quests - Sam is engaged to another man and still can't make Jack see why she's still unhappy, and Jack has got himself a new girlfriend (trying to move on as he thinks Sam has) and still backs off from Sam when it threatens to get personal. For two people who have such amazing communication skills with so few words, they are remarkably good at blanking this whole subject out - it's like they've both backed off from the whole thing so much over the past few years that it's become a real blind spot for them both. At no point in this episode, prior to the 'Always' scene, do they properly engage with one another or even really look at one anotherr - neither really sees what the other is thinking or feeling, and their scenes are full of awkwardness. First there's the scene in Jack's office, after Sam sees him with Kerry - her jealousy and uncertainty is written all over her face and Jack is desperately trying to act casual. Then there's the briefing room scene with the 'go pick flowers' comment - they're OK while they're on the topic of the weapon, but again Jack is desperately trying to pretend he doesn't care about Pete's phonecall and in fact the whole wedding while Sam is desperately trying to pretend the whole thing isn't happening. And of course then we get the scene in Jack's back yard. There is barely any communication between them in this whole first part of the episode that isn't hampered by awkwardness, uncertainty and avoidance of gaze, and it's painful to watch. It's also quite a stark contrast to how we are used to seeing them interact - all season we've been talking about how comfortable they are with one another, how in sync they are. So why the difference here? And the answer can only be it's because they are both hyper aware of their relationships with Pete and Kerry, and the scenes that we see throughout this episode all touch on the personal to one extent or another. Sam is fretting about her impending wedding, having massive second thoughts, all of which clearly involve Jack, and so she's treading extra cautiously around him. Jack meanwhile has a new girlfriend that he doesn't want Sam to know about and is also clearly bothered by Sam's wedding now that it's so close, but doesn't want her to realise that it bothers him because he's so determined that she should be happy and he should not stand in her way. Plus, also, it's possible I think that the fact that they've suddenly basically finally won - Goa'uld and Replicators defeated, Jaffa free, no more massive threat - is affecting them. The 'one day' when they could finally stop having to bow to duty and honour and put themselves first that they must have thought would never come is now practically here, and they're neither of them single and are no longer even sure of each other's feelings any more. It's gotta have thrown them for a loop. Thank goodness Jacob and Kerry were around to knock some sense into them!

                  Before I get on to Jacob and Kerry, a word or two about Pete. And oh boy is the whole thing a car crash at this point! He is just trying way too hard, and it's really no wonder Sam is having second thoughts about what the heck she thought she was doing. I basically cringe every time he's on screen here, which is of course the intention, but we're being shown in no uncertain terms that he and Sam are just not compatible. She is clearly embarrassed by him when he comes to meet her dad, which could be in large part because he's at her workplace and so out of place, but the glances she exchanges with Jacob are more telling, I think. She's almost apologetic; kind of saying 'I know, don't judge him, he's nervous, but I know he's an idiot'. And much as she tries to be happy when Pete takes her to see the house, it's quite clear she wishes she were somewhere else, and you can visibly see her heart sink when she sees what he's done. We've already been discussing Sam and Pete's relationship, so I won't go too much into it here, but yeah, talk about second thoughts! Pete, for his part, is given a tiny bit of redemption when he reacts pretty gracefully to her dumping him, and his line 'I knew from the beginning' indicates that he wasn't as blind as he was cabbage looking. So the whole thing really is pretty much bad relationships 101 - one person not sure but trying not to hurt the other, the other one trying too hard to pretend it's all hunky dory even while knowing it's not.

                  Kerry, by contrast, chooses to get out rather than delude herself, and gives Jack a little parting gift on the way. We don't really see enough of Kerry to be able to form too many conclusions about why she does this or her relationship with Jack, but I think this is her main function - basically as a counterpart to Jacob, someone to give Jack a prod in the right direction. He's clearly pretty happy with her, but we know the relationship is new (as Jack mentions meeting her for the first time in Citizen Joe), and there's no real hurt on either side at it ending, just a touch of wistfulness. And I think the way Jack looks down as Kerry leaves shows he gets it at last.

                  Now Jacob, who is just magnificent in this episode. From the way he sizes up Pete in about two seconds flat and proceeds to make him (and Sam too, really) feel about two inches tall, to his wonderful dismissal of his future son-in-law when talking to Sam ('I did so', 'He seems nice' and 'Selmak really liked him' when Selmak is in no position to have an opinion) and his full-on stirring in the briefing room, this is full on Jacob-dad-snark. In some ways his behaviour here can be compared to the way he's been with Jack in the past (which in itself is telling), but in a far less approving way. It is quite clear he does not think Pete is in any way good enough for Sam, and given the fact that he knows he's dying, I'm not surprised he tries to set her right. I find it interesting that twice Jacob talks about wanting Sam to be happy - this is the first of the Grace call-backs as of course he said the exact same thing to her there. She assures him each time that she is (again as she did in Grace), but he knows she isn't. Thankfully, before he dies, he gets to see her with Jack (he was totally watching them, I'm sure!) and sees that maybe she has finally figured it out, that all she ever needed to do to please him was be happy - this comes back to the part of Sam's personal quest being to live up to her father's ideals and expectations.

                  By the way, while I'm on the subject of Jacob, and much as it broke my heart to see, it's kind of right, narratively, that he dies here I think. His story arc involved being given a second chance at life, and a chance to mend his relationship with his daughter, and he's done that and helped save the world to boot. He's in a good place to go, as both he and Sam say.

                  still cont...
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                    cont again...

                    Anyway, having been metaphorically smacked upside the head, Sam and Jack do overcome their fears and doubts about bringing their feelings out into the open, and finally make that connection and commitment to one another. It's a beautiful scene, so simple, but weighted with meaning, and here for the first time all episode they actually look at one another and communicate beyond the words they say. It starts off fairly normally, but then you see them both make the conscious decision to stop running away from the whole thing and be honest - first Jack puts his arm around Sam's shoulders and she takes his hand, and then we get this exchange:

                    Thank you, Sir
                    For what?
                    >>Crucial moment no.1: Sam decides to tell him truthfully, not dismiss it as 'nothing' as she did in Grace
                    For being here for me. (note the slight raised intonation at the end, giving it a questioning tone)
                    >>Crucial moment no.2: Jack decides to respond truthfully. He pauses, and you can see him make the conscious decision to take the plunge.
                    (said with so much tenderness and promise that it literally breaks my heart every time, in the absolute best way) Always.
                    Sam then looks at Jack, right at him, and then turns her face back to his hand in hers, clearly understanding and accepting the promise he has made.

                    This, for me, is Resolution. No doubt about it - this is The Moment. It's also another call-back to Grace, a do-over of the conversation right at the end of that episode, which was diverted into a dismissal and a joke. Seen in the context of their overall personal quests, that conversation was the moment they went 'wrong', and this is their chance to put it right. As we've just been discussing, I don't actually think they were ready to resolve things after Grace - if nothing else, the circumstances weren't right in terms of the battle with the Goa'uld still being very much alive, plus I think it was only by reaching the point they did here that they actually come very close to losing one another that they realised they couldn't. Anyway, with this conversation, Sam and Jack's personal quests - to accept her Woman aspect, to find love/home/family/a reason to live - come to a conclusion by their coming together. They are each other's goals and solutions, in effect, and their reward is a future together - which is what the fishing indicates. And from this point on, there really is a change in their behaviour - back to understanding and visual communication in the self-destruct sequence scene, and boy do they look coupley and loved-up in the briefing room scene with Teal'c and Bra'tac - look how closely they're sitting and all those shared looks.

                    Finally, I don't want to anticipate Moebius part two too much, but a quick word on the fishing scene. I don't think the differences between here and Moebius are in any way accidental, and Moebius is far more encouraging to shippers! At the end of Threads there is still a tension - Jack's legs are crossed away from Sam and neither of them sound as giddy as they do at the end of Moebius. We can obviously talk about this more then though, as I think I have gone on quite long enough now! And fishing is still fishing
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                    Artwork for All | Sig & avi by JadedWraith

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                      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post

                      (snip)

                      Only Sam after she gets back to the real world, continues not to risk finding out how Jack feels about her and enters a relationship with Pete. To me, Sam simply stopped hiding behind what she thought was an unattainable relationship with Jack and instead hid behind an attainable relationship with Pete.
                      it seems our brains are wired the same way when it comes to s/j ship.

                      that bolded part... sometimes some of the stuff you say is almost poetic in it's simplicity AND profoundness.

                      at least for me.
                      sally

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                        Josi is there someplace we can nominate you for a PhD in S/J Ship Theory?
                        Last edited by hlndncr; 07 March 2011, 01:56 PM.

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                          Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                          I just finished rewatching Reckoning and honestly I don't have much to add. (Unusual for me, I know.) I like the episodes; although part 1 is clearly set up and I think it drags a little. I think it was a very good way to go out, but I do feel like they mopped up the impossible to beat bad guys we've been fighting for years pretty darn quick.

                          Love the idea of RepliCarter being the main enemy in S9&10. That would have been so awesome! AT could have remained a main cast member just as a different character (and a way cool baddie at that) and Sam could have gone off into the sunset with Jack. (Hmmm, I sense an AU fic coming on.)
                          .
                          This sounds like a great fanfic! I've read a lot and have not read any with that premise. I'd definitely read it!

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                            Wow... just read Josi's review for Threads... that was epic! Really awesome review.

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                              Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                              I think fundamentally we disagree in what we interpret Sam discovered in Grace. For me, Sam realised in Grace that she deserved to be loved and recognised her need to be; that she hadn't truly risked her heart because she feared that love meant losing someone and that she had focused on what she had seen as an unattainable relationship with Jack because it was safe; that she had to move forward and risk her heart. But also that she loved Jack but didn't know how he felt; that she was scared to find out; that with the fantasy kiss, she really did want to be with him.
                              I agree with the first part, but I think the crux of our disagreement seems to be more the bolded part. IMHO, Jack made it rather clear what his feelings were in D&C and beyond, and in Grace Sam points that out to herself via Jack when he says, 'Maybe it's not me that's the problem here.' And after she imagines kissing him she says 'nevermind.' I don't really see how that shows that she really wants to be with Jack at that moment. Wouldn't her response have been something more positive or affirmative in that case?

                              Now, for me, if she didn't fundamentally love Jack, then yes, the whole message from Grace would be: stop hiding behind your attraction with Jack which has no possibility of going somewhere, go out into the real world and get something attainable.

                              But because for me she did love Jack, then the message from Grace is actually: stop hiding, go and find out how the man feels, make your relationship attainable, and risk your heart on the man you love.
                              I agree that Sam did fundamentally love Jack, but I don't think it was a matter of finding out what Jack feels because IMHO Sam already came to that realization on the ship, that Jack would always be there for her and that it was her fears that were the issue, not Jack's feelings. And I don't think it was simply a matter of making a relationship attainable, but to do so while still honoring her obligations, hence Sam quickly shutting down the idea of her leaving the Air Force via Jack.

                              Only Sam after she gets back to the real world, continues not to risk finding out how Jack feels about her and enters a relationship with Pete. To me, Sam simply stopped hiding behind what she thought was an unattainable relationship with Jack and instead hid behind an attainable relationship with Pete.
                              See, this line of reasoning only seems to make sense to me if a relationship with Jack is considered to be the 'right' outcome for Sam and any other option is considered to be 'wrong', and as a non-shipper I just can't see it that way. Because by opening up her heart to Pete, I don't see Sam hiding behind her fears of getting hurt anymore, so what else would she be hiding from?

                              But Sam makes the same mistake of assuming that it is either her relationship with Jack or having her job (she makes that jump in her hallucinatory conversation with him) but it's really not an either/or. Given the importance of both of them to the SGC, if they had agreed to try something between them and approached Hammond, yes SG1 as a team would have been separated (but let's not forget Daniel had already disappeared for a year and the team had functioned without him) but both Sam and Jack could still have worked at the SGC, still been in the Air Force and still saved the world. They just had to be honest about what they wanted.
                              While I agree that theoretically this scenario is possible, in reality there was no way this could have happened on the show. Jack becoming a general in S8 was already a stretch, the show would not have worked well if one of its members was on a different team post-Grace.

                              Also, I personally have a very hard time believing that Sam would give up serving on SG-1 for a relationship with Jack, because at that point it really would have been an either/or. Either she says on SG-1 under Jack's command or she gives up her position on SG-1 in order to move out of his direct chain of command. And I just cannot see Sam at the time of Grace, at least my interpretation of the character, giving up all the joy she gets out of serving on SG-1 with Daniel, Teal'c, and Jack for a relationship with Jack. And I cannot see Jack letting her leave SG-1 for that reason either.

                              After Threads I can see the possibility because of all the changes that have occurred since Grace, Janet's and Jacob's deaths and the defeats of the replicators and Anubis. Sam at that point I can definitely see moving on from SG-1, as well as Jack moving on from the SGC, but not before that IMHO.

                              And I agree hedwig, I was going for a contrast to 'courageous,' but you're right 'selfish' is a better descriptor than 'cowardly' for my feelings regarding Jack and/or Sam choosing a relationship over their jobs on SG-1.

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                                Wow, no else has posted comments from Threads yet? Josie did an extremely thorough job, that I'm hard pressed to think of anything to add.

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