Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[josiane]

Apologies for the double-post, but as we're coming to the end of season 8, it seems like a good time to ask what you guys want to do about continuing or otherwise. I can see a few potential options:

1. Continue with seasons 9 & 10 and the movies in the same way
2. Continue with selected episodes of S9&10 (ie, the ones where there is actually something to discuss from a shippy point of view!)
3. Go back to the beginning, esp. for those of us who weren't participating in the rewatch when we originally started it (as it's quite a while ago now!)
4. Stop, and let this thread go back to general discussion.

Personally I'm not fussed about continuing into S9&10, don't really see the point (unless it's just those few episodes with ship interest + Continuum), but don't let me stop you if others do want to!

If the rewatch does continue or start again though, I'd quite like to hand over the organising reins at this point, so in that case, please say if you'd like to volunteer!

[hedwig]

I don't think it's fair to blame Jack - that is in fact crediting him with having that very idea of control over Sam that you're objecting to.

Sorry, just realised that sounds a bit harsh, but as far as I'm concerned, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other with them. They both get themselves into this mess, and thankfully they also both (eventually) get themselves out of it.

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting he has any control "over her". He does, however, often act in a way that he thinks is best for her, which conveniently coincides with him protecting himself from whatever he's trying to protect himself from. And I don't think I'm being unfair at all to Jack. In my opinion, Sam has tried on several occasions to let him know how she feels and he's cut her off every single time and not let her express what she wants to express. That's pretty deliberate on his part, regardless of his reasons for doing it. And by doing so (IMO), he is giving her the impression he doesn't care as much as he used to and simply doesn't want to know how she feels. Which leaves her without the appropriate information to make an informed choice. And thus she moves on to Pete. So, for me, Jack is controlling the situation for his own benefit, and thus deciding what is best for her in the process. Like it or not, that's my impression, and I'm not going to change it.

I do, however, realize that Sam could have pursued it and not allowed him to stop her. But for me it comes back to her feeling she hasn't got the right to overstep the whole rank issue, and she's waiting for him to do something (anything, really) to let her know she's not alone in her feelings. And he won't do it; refuses to, in fact.

So, as mean as it sounds, I've often felt he would have deserved it had he lost her completely. I've never agreed with the notion that the decision for them to have a relationship was always up to her, and her alone. And quite a few people think that's exactly where it should have been. I don't.

He wouldn't even have to have met her halfway. Just a few steps toward a meeting place would have been enough for her. It's no wonder she was so confused and tried to move on.

And for me, whatever he may or may not have done to attempt to let her know how he feels about her (besides the whole admission in Divide & Conquer) is a separate discussion.

[Rachel500]

So, I'm in catch-up mode again...

It's Good to be King

Generally

Great review and I enjoyed everyone's comments. I love the beginning of the episode where we get a glimpse of SG1 in its new formation and it's enough for me to wish that we could have had a whole episode (not necessarily with this story) with Sam, Daniel and Teal'c out in the field as a team.

I think it says a lot about Maybourne's arc that I like this as an ending for him although I do think he's still wreaking havoc in the galaxy even now.

Sam and Jack

I think someone on the family thread once suggested that the whole piece of Sam, Jack and the ship was a foreshadow of what was to come; running out of time, Sam getting it to work last minute, Jack taking action...and I think at one point Jack says he and Sam will take care of the ship? So I do like that.

I also love that actually Sam and Jack get time to work together out in the field;they work together really well and are so in synch with each other. I love the scene in the puddle jumper with them when they blow up the mothership.

[Rachel500]

Full Alert

Generally

Not my fave and was very interested to read Petra's take. I'm still not a fan though (regardless of how hot RDA is in it)!

I would agree that it's not the best way of have ended things with Kinsey although presumably he could be out in the galaxy as a minor Goa'uld somewhere.

Sam and Jack

They do act very professionally in Full Alert but very much in synch and together.

[Rachel500]

Citizen Joe

Generally

Great review. For me, Citizen Joe does stretch believability a bit far in Jack having access to Joe's life but never once saying something to someone - they 'hang a lantern' on it in the briefing scene by having Daniel say as much and Jack claiming he thought he had mentioned it to someone at some point but...no, just doesn't work.

Otherwise I'm quite happy at CJ effectively being a love letter to the fans and for me this is one of the better clip shows that SG1 did.

Sam and Jack

So, two things jump out at me about CJ - one is the discussed scene at the beginning where Sam and Jack are clearly having a conversation which segues into a discussion of their weekend plans. Interesting because the mention of Kerry at the beginning where Jack indicates that he's meeting with Agent Johnson re the fallout from Full Alert definitely gives a timeline for Jack meeting her. And because Sam inquires about his weekend plans as though (as someone has pointed out) fishing for an invitation compounded by her seeming complete lack of plans despite imminent wedding and fiance. Interestingly also (at least for me) because I tend to think this might be one of the times that Sam is trying to get the courage up to speak to Jack (she indicates in Threads that she's been getting the courage to speak to him for a while) because for me she's been questioning her engagement since Gemini.

The second thing that jumps out is the idea that Joe has a real window into Jack's mind and thoughts. His comments hint that (a) Jack loves Sam and Joe knows that, and (b) Joe considers Pete a mistake by Sam. I think it does show on some level that Jack considers Pete a mistake by Sam on some level (which I put down to her hesitancy to marry the guy in the first place) but Jack's action in stopping Joe from saying anything speaks volumes for how he has decided to deal with it: Sam has made her choice and Jack is not going to stop it.

[Lucycat]

Great reviews for Reckoning part 1 and 2, Evenstar and Gumarx.

I enjoyed the episodes, thought it was done well, a nice final battle to eliminate the Gould and Replicators at the same time. I loved Jack and Sam simultaneously shooting the replicators, even though they were on separate planets. How, at the end, when they talked about it, they spoke together with like minds.

[Rachel500]

Reckoning

Generally
It's two of the best episodes of SG1 ever and THIS is how you do a team ep even if the team is scattered; all of them working across the galaxy to the same aim.

I too am a bit disappointed that Sam never got her showdown with RepliCarter face to face (although you could argue she does defeat her at a distance by ensuring they find the energy signature needed, the Dakara device and setting up the Stargate dial-up.

Sam and Jack

Most of their interaction is professional, but the ending where Jack effectively dismisses her is very interesting (especially as up until that point they had been bantering normally). While some of his abruptness I think does come down to his unwillingness to consider Daniel KIA, given that we know Jack has met with Kerry (and presumably started his relationship with her), I also think Jack is actively trying to step back from how he feels from Sam at this point, and move his personal/emotional loyalty from the women he loves (Sam) to the woman he's seeing (Kerry). But he finds it hard - Sam clearly is disconcerted by it (I'd go so far as to say hurt) and that last look after her, says he knows what he did and how it affected her, and feels some guilt and discomfort himself over it. All nicely sets up the next episode.

[Lucycat]

[B]Reckoning

Sam and Jack

Most of their interaction is professional, but the ending where Jack effectively dismisses her is very interesting (especially as up until that point they had been bantering normally). While some of his abruptness I think does come down to his unwillingness to consider Daniel KIA, given that we know Jack has met with Kerry (and presumably started his relationship with her), I also think Jack is actively trying to step back from how he feels from Sam at this point, and move his personal/emotional loyalty from the women he loves (Sam) to the woman he's seeing (Kerry). But he finds it hard - Sam clearly is disconcerted by it (I'd go so far as to say hurt) and that last look after her, says he knows what he did and how it affected her, and feels some guilt and discomfort himself over it. All nicely sets up the next episode.

I agree!

[Rachel500]

Available vs not available / Sam loved Pete vs not

Personally, I think if Sam had been given confirmation by Jack that he loved her at any point from early S7, Sam would never have gone down the Pete road. (As I wrote this I couldn't help thinking that her position is not unlike shippers all the way through S9/S10 - she thinks he might still have feelings for her - we think they're together - but there's no proof of that, no verbal confirmation that he does for Sam - just as there's no absolute confirmation that they are together).

That said, I'm not sure if Jack had simply been available to her that she would have tried having a love life with Jack - because Jack's availability has always been in Sam's head: she made him unavailable because of their ranks and their working relationship, their duty to the mission that had to come first. After Grace she could have been courageous and said 'I want to try love with Jack and I'm prepared to make the changes that are necessary to do that.' But she doesn't which indicates to me that as much as Sam loves Jack, she really is the coward at this point (Grace) that RepliCarter later accuses her of being.

That said, I also take Hedwig's point that it wasn't all up to Sam. Sam does attempt to raise the topic on a number of occasions. Jack could have said something to Sam - or allowed Sam to fully express herself when she raised the topic. But he chose not to (because of his own fears) and in choosing not to let Sam know how he felt, he almost lost her. He was as much of a coward as she was.

I do believe that Sam in accepting Pete's engagement, at that moment, believed herself to love Pete "enough"; to be his wife, to commit to him, to be happy with him and to make him happy. But her outburst to Daniel and Teal'c in Affinity gives away to me that she knew she didn't consider Pete to be 'the one' or their relationship to be the romantic ideal that I think she secretly wanted. Personally, I think Sam at Affinity "settled" for Pete and knew she "settled" for him and it was this knowledge that coupled with RepliCarter's brutal honesty about Sam denying herself her true desires fostered the doubt that has her trying to get up the courage to talk with Jack again.

[Rachel500]

Apologies for the double-post, but as we're coming to the end of season 8, it seems like a good time to ask what you guys want to do about continuing or otherwise. I can see a few potential options:

1. Continue with seasons 9 & 10 and the movies in the same way
2. Continue with selected episodes of S9&10 (ie, the ones where there is actually something to discuss from a shippy point of view!)3. Go back to the beginning, esp. for those of us who weren't participating in the rewatch when we originally started it (as it's quite a while ago now!)
4. Stop, and let this thread go back to general discussion.

Personally I'm not fussed about continuing into S9&10, don't really see the point (unless it's just those few episodes with ship interest + Continuum), but don't let me stop you if others do want to!

If the rewatch does continue or start again though, I'd quite like to hand over the organising reins at this point, so in that case, please say if you'd like to volunteer!

My preference is bolded. Unfortunately, as can be seen from my somewhat sporadic appearances on this thread at the mo, I don't have the bandwidth to organise but I am happy to continue being a reviewer.

[EvenstarSRV]

Finally at the end we seem them speaking and wrapping up the loose ends of the episode. Their banter is wonderful, and they are even finishing each other’s sentences. I like how Jack grounds Sam here, she’s obviously worried about Daniel, but he insists that they cannot jump to conclusions about what might have happened. However, as she walks away, we can tell from his mannerisms that he’s obviously just as concerned as she is. He doesn’t show her this concern though, and in a way I think this plays into a lot of the quirks of their relationship up to this point. It’s my opinion that, in regards to Pete, he was trying to do what he thought would be right for her. He was supportive when she came to him about the engagement, even though she seemed to be screaming “tell me no.” I feel this is another instance of a similar behavior.

First, great review! You highlighted most of my favorite moments. Regarding the closing moments with Sam and Jack, I think Jack cutting off Sam is more about Jack's way of handling loss. It reminded me a lot of how he acted in Revelations, Sam trying to talk to him about Daniel and Jack not wanting to hear it.

Sure, yes if Jack had become available and they'd both realised that the other still loved them back in early S7 or before I have now doubt they would have gotten together (like they are now), but I *think* the previous point was that there's a difference between
Sam being with Pete *because* Jack is unavailable
Sam staying with Pete *because* Jack is unavailable
Sam leaving Pete as soon as Jack is available
Sam being with Jack because he's available

(by available I mean both no regs, no girlfriend)

That was, generally, the point I was trying to make. I think the the regulations part of the 'availability' is rather important was well, since up until Chimera there was no boyfriend/girlfriend aspect. Like I've said before, even if in early S7, or anytime before Avalon really, Sam and Jack wanted to start a relationship with each other, their positions and the regulations would have prevented it, regardless of their feelings in the matter.

Regarding Pete, if Sam had decided she didn't love Pete and had broken up with him earlier, Jack would still be just as unavailable to her as he's always been. Therefore I have a hard time seeing Jack's availability being a major factor in Sam's relationship with Pete. After all Sam is no stranger to being single, and IMHO if she didn't love Pete she'd have little trouble continuing on remaining single while holding on to her feelings for Jack, which she had been doing to an extent since D&C at least.

Ultimately, I just can't see Sam being so desperate that she'd stay with Pete and come within days of marrying him even if she didn't truly believe that she loved him and would be happy with him.

That said, I'm not sure if Jack had simply been available to her that she would have tried having a love life with Jack - because Jack's availability has always been in Sam's head: she made him unavailable because of their ranks and their working relationship, their duty to the mission that had to come first. After Grace she could have been courageous and said 'I want to try love with Jack and I'm prepared to make the changes that are necessary to do that.' But she doesn't which indicates to me that as much as Sam loves Jack, she really is the coward at this point (Grace) that RepliCarter later accuses her of being.

I have to strongly disagree here, I think Sam was actually being very courageous regarding her decision post-Grace to move on from Jack. IMHO, Sam's dilemma in Grace was about opening herself to love in general, not just with Jack. Her focus on Jack was actually one of the factors that was holding her back, because hanging on to a 'what if' with him meant that she didn't have to try or risk her heart on anyone else.

So to me post-Grace Sam had a few choices, 1) leave the team for a relationship with Jack, 2) continue on with the status quo, or 3) try for a relationship with someone else besides Jack.

1) The only way a relationship between Sam and Jack would work post-Grace is if one or the other left the team/SGC. Not only would that not be practical for a show called 'Stargate SG-1', but IMHO that would have been the cowardly thing for either Sam and Jack to do, because it meant that they were putting their own personal desires above the needs of their team and the SGC. Like I've said before, I may be a non-shipper but the Sam/Jack relationship appeals to me because it was most often the characters' sense of honor and duty that were keeping them apart, not the convoluted machinations so often seen on series.

2) One of the main revelations Sam had in Grace to me was that opening your heart to loving someone is worth the risk of getting hurt or losing them. For her to continue with the status quo post-Grace would mean to me that she hadn't taken that idea to heart and that she was still hiding behind her fears.

3) This to me was the courageous choice for Sam to take post-Grace. Leaving the team for Jack would mean giving up her obligations to SG-1, while continuing with the status quo would mean she was still hiding behind her fear of getting hurt. By trying for a relationship with someone else, Sam was opening up her heart and confronting her fears while still respecting and honoring her obligations and commitment to her team and the SGC.

Whether that relationship with someone else (Pete in this case) works out in the long-term is a different matter to me. The important thing was that she gave it a honest chance and she did it by broadening her personal life while still honoring her professional commitments, which is a balance that the other choices didn't have IMHO.

[Rachel500]

<snipped>

I have to strongly disagree here, I think Sam was actually being very courageous regarding her decision post-Grace to move on from Jack. IMHO, Sam's dilemma in Grace was about opening herself to love in general, not just with Jack. Her focus on Jack was actually one of the factors that was holding her back, because hanging on to a 'what if' with him meant that she didn't have to try or risk her heart on anyone else.

So to me post-Grace Sam had a few choices, 1) leave the team for a relationship with Jack, 2) continue on with the status quo, or 3) try for a relationship with someone else besides Jack.

1) The only way a relationship between Sam and Jack would work post-Grace is if one or the other left the team/SGC. Not only would that not be practical for a show called 'Stargate SG-1', but IMHO that would have been the cowardly thing for either Sam and Jack to do, because it meant that they were putting their own personal desires above the needs of their team and the SGC. Like I've said before, I may be a non-shipper but the Sam/Jack relationship appeals to me because it was most often the characters' sense of honor and duty that were keeping them apart, not the convoluted machinations so often seen on series.

2) One of the main revelations Sam had in Grace to me was that opening your heart to loving someone is worth the risk of getting hurt or losing them. For her to continue with the status quo post-Grace would mean to me that she hadn't taken that idea to heart and that she was still hiding behind her fears.

3) This to me was the courageous choice for Sam to take post-Grace. Leaving the team for Jack would mean giving up her obligations to SG-1, while continuing with the status quo would mean she was still hiding behind her fear of getting hurt. By trying for a relationship with someone else, Sam was opening up her heart and confronting her fears while still respecting and honoring her obligations and commitment to her team and the SGC.

Whether that relationship with someone else (Pete in this case) works out in the long-term is a different matter to me. The important thing was that she gave it a honest chance and she did it by broadening her personal life while still honoring her professional commitments, which is a balance that the other choices didn't have IMHO.

I think fundamentally we disagree in what we interpret Sam discovered in Grace. For me, Sam realised in Grace that she deserved to be loved and recognised her need to be; that she hadn't truly risked her heart because she feared that love meant losing someone and that she had focused on what she had seen as an unattainable relationship with Jack because it was safe; that she had to move forward and risk her heart. But also that she loved Jack but didn't know how he felt; that she was scared to find out; that with the fantasy kiss, she really did want to be with him.

Now, for me, if she didn't fundamentally love Jack, then yes, the whole message from Grace would be: stop hiding behind your attraction with Jack which has no possibility of going somewhere, go out into the real world and get something attainable.

But because for me she did love Jack, then the message from Grace is actually: stop hiding, go and find out how the man feels, make your relationship attainable, and risk your heart on the man you love.

Only Sam after she gets back to the real world, continues not to risk finding out how Jack feels about her and enters a relationship with Pete. To me, Sam simply stopped hiding behind what she thought was an unattainable relationship with Jack and instead hid behind an attainable relationship with Pete.

How much of that is down to her sense of duty and commitment to the mission? To believing that to risk her heart on Jack, to truly find out how he feels would mean ramifications professionally that could endanger the mission? Well, I won't say that it wouldn't play into it all, and I agree that it makes the risk so much greater.

But Sam makes the same mistake of assuming that it is either her relationship with Jack or having her job (she makes that jump in her hallucinatory conversation with him) but it's really not an either/or. Given the importance of both of them to the SGC, if they had agreed to try something between them and approached Hammond, yes SG1 as a team would have been separated (but let's not forget Daniel had already disappeared for a year and the team had functioned without him) but both Sam and Jack could still have worked at the SGC, still been in the Air Force and still saved the world. They just had to be honest about what they wanted.

[hlndncr]

Thank you Rachel. That's exactly what I meant to say all along but just never seemed to have the right words. Needless to say, I agree!

As for Seasons 9 & 10, I think I would vote for reviewing selected shippy episodes (what little there was). I think it also might be interesting, before we tackle Continuum, to do a Sam in Atlantis discussion. Maybe someone could give a review of the shippy bits and/or significant character moments from that show and then others can chime in with their thoughts and opinions.

I'd be happy to do the organizing.

[hlndncr]

I just finished rewatching Reckoning and honestly I don't have much to add. (Unusual for me, I know.) I like the episodes; although part 1 is clearly set up and I think it drags a little. I think it was a very good way to go out, but I do feel like they mopped up the impossible to beat bad guys we've been fighting for years pretty darn quick.

Love the idea of RepliCarter being the main enemy in S9&10. That would have been so awesome! AT could have remained a main cast member just as a different character (and a way cool baddie at that) and Sam could have gone off into the sunset with Jack. (Hmmm, I sense an AU fic coming on.)

It's at this point that I already start missing Jack because I know he's leaving soon. *sniffle* His interaction with Jacob and Baal in part one is just priceless.

I also think that Sam's interaction with Baal, I sense the loathing even when she's playing nice, is strongly colored by the fact that she hasn't forgotten what he did to Jack.

I like the confrontation between RC and Daniel, but I still would have liked a face to face between Sam and RC (that could have been a great S9 or S10 ender in my made up fantasy world).

As for Sam and Jack, I like Rachel's interp that Jack is trying to pull away from Sam while Sam is trying to get the courage to reach out to Jack. I hadn't thought of it that way, but in the context of what's coming, it makes sense to me. I think they are deeply connected and whether they realize it or not, whether they like it or not, those bonds may be stretched to the limit but they're never going to break.

[Petra]

Okay, it's my time to play big catch-up although due to time constraints I'll address just a few points I most vehemently agree or disagree with.

IGTBK

(And just as an aside, I don't understand why male writers - especially on Stargate - always find polygamy so funny.

Yep, I'm so with you here. Their immature obsession with polygamy reminds me of teenage boys.

I agree that Petra has a point about Maybourne not mentioning Jonas or being surprised that Daniel was back. But as a viewer that is old territory.

Well, maybe repeating that Daniel's back and Jonas' gone would have been "old territory" (then again, at that point SG-1 was still picking up new viewers) but using this occassion to update viewers on Jonas' fate wouldn't have been.

Full Alert

And Jack's dealings with the Russians was way too chummy and therefore OoC.

See, I don't see the change in Jack's dealings with the Russians as OoC. Actually, given that not even once post-Full Alert we see or hear about Jack having any problems with them I fail to see how is it OoC. For me it's a sign of his character development and how much he's grown as a commander and a leader. At some point he must have realised that as a base CO and then one of the major players in Washington he couldn't afford to continue to bait and offend Russians and changed his attitude. That's nothing more than a change of strategy needed to win a battle, necessary adjustment needed to adapt to a new situation and as such is very IN-character for Jack, IMO.

Citizen Joe

It is IMO the very best clipshow of SG1, and just a dang good episode in it's own right.

Put me down as another fan who likes Citizen Joe, although I don't regard it as the best clip show SG-1 ever did - for me this honour goes to, strangely enough, Politics, and that's just because I don't see Out of Mind as a clip show but rather a regular episode.

Citizen Joe is fun and as was noted, it's one of the last times in SG-1 when the writers were poking fun at the fans in a gentle way and not at their expense. Still, it remains an episode that for me exists somewhat besides canon. I can't bring myself to treat its events as part of canon because taken seriously they just stretch my suspension of disbelief too much. There's no way I'll ever believe that a man who values his privacy as much as Jack does, who is so strict about military rules and conduct and so suspicious of others would have accepted so easily such visions. And Joe sharing his memories...wasn't that breach of security? So yeah, it's a great gift for fans, but doesn't work as a regular episode at all. Its premise is as ridiculous as PU.

Complaint first. It's a big one, but it's only tangentially related to the episode. I have come to despise the communication stones. They started out as this quirky, seemingly innocuous piece of ancient technology that gaves us this funny little story. But hereafter their function and purpose become so wildly inconsistent from episode to episode as to pass the bounds of even my high level of credulity (and I really don't care much about the techy aspects of the show).

I'm not overly bothered by the stones. I mean, I don't like them in the sense that I find the whole situation with Jack unbelievable, but as a plot device for uncanonical episode they are ok. Later on their use, function and way of working is so inconsistent, as you say, that I tend to regard stones on SG-1 in the last 2 seasons, on SGA and on SGU as 3 completely different devices. Otherwise they just don't make sense.

SGU

Worst of all, and beyond all limits for me, they become the means for perpetratating acts of transcorporeal sexual abuse in that atrocity that is SGU (and this is what really slammed the nail in the coffin of that show for me.)

I really try very hard not to bring up SGU in SG-1 folder but I can't let such comment slide. As a fan who was deeply disappointed with the last 2 seasons of SG-1 and with most of SGA (particularly its last 2 seasons too) and considers SGU a return to the top form and quality that made me Stargate fan in the first place I can't stress how much I disagree with your assessment. What's more, SGU is actually the only Stargate show that has been using the stones in a consistent manner.

As to "transcorporeal sexual abuse", as you call it, there's no such thing. And I'll stop here, before I go off on another rant about science-fiction, tolerance, morality derived from religion and sex. Yep, shutting up now. *nods to herself*

Back on topic:

Personally I think Sam called about making a work-related appointment for Monday, but was getting off track when they started discussing the weekend.

Personally I agree. Then again, I could easily see them chatting like this for a number of reasons. After all Jack did mention phone calls in LC and off-duty they do have the most in common out of all SG-1 members, past, present and future, so I wouldn't be surprised if this phone call was a glimpse of their weekly routine or something. I tend to see it as friendship first and foremost.

Sam/Jack/Pete

I agree. I think Sam certainly convinces herself she loves Pete for most of the time they're together - I think at first, she wants to love him, because she is trying to move on from her feelings for Jack. And it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - I'm sure she's telling herself the whole time that he's a great guy and he really loves her. But I think her love for him all along is a bit of a constructed facade - to quote Daniel, it only works if you don't scratch beneath the surface. Because she is clearly also unsure - as we see from her discussions with herself after his proposal and from the conversation she has with Teal'c in New Order. So I also agree with you, Evenstar that it doesn't really matter too much at this point whether she actually loves him or whether she's just convinced herself that she does. However, when it comes to the crunch and the house of cards comes tumbling down, then it makes a heck of a difference, and in fact, it's why she can't go through with the wedding in the end, because she doesn't really love him, just thought that she did.

I was trying to make sense of my thoughts regarding the issue and then I read josiane's post and it turned out that she said exactly what I think, only so much better than I ever could. Needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly.

I don't think that what Jack does is deciding 'for' her. He's deciding for himself to let her go, because he thinks she wants to move on. And because he thinks that that's what she wants, he stands back and chooses not to interfere, not to put up a fight. He's wrong, of course, but he doesn't know that. It's not like he told her to go out with Pete or marry Pete and she's doing it because he wants her to. She's with Pete because she wants to be, at this point, and Jack is not interfering because he thinks she wants to be too. She may interpret his reticence as a sign that he isn't interested, but that's Sam's perception, and again, as with Jack, she's wrong about that but she doesn't realise it. I don't think it's fair to blame Jack - that is in fact crediting him with having that very idea of control over Sam that you're objecting to.

Ditto. These are my thoughts, only stated much more clearly and eloquently that I would ever be able to.

In my opinion, Sam has tried on several occasions to let him know how she feels and he's cut her off every single time and not let her express what she wants to express. That's pretty deliberate on his part, regardless of his reasons for doing it. And by doing so (IMO), he is giving her the impression he doesn't care as much as he used to and simply doesn't want to know how she feels.

We've talked about this, I know where are you coming from and I do see your point, but in Jack's defence I'd like to point out that as far as he's concerned Sam's actions aren't as clear as they are to us. From his POV, he was making his feelings very clear for about a year post-D&C and Sam was the one who consistently, time after time, shot him down and refused to give him something in return. Then he distanced himself from her (and from Teal'c and Daniel too) and she didn't seem particularly upset about it; then they settled into very comfortable, close, flirty friendship and Sam seemed happy about it. Then she got herself a boyfriend and then she made a few attempts to talk to him about her feelings. He, in turn, shot her down. That was silly and cowardly, but given the circumstances I can see why he did that (she was with another man for Pete's sake and Jack's a very honourable man) and I don't think it was more cowardly that what she did in season 4 (and at that time he didn't have a girlfriend). So, for me they are both equally at fault.

But for me it comes back to her feeling she hasn't got the right to overstep the whole rank issue, and she's waiting for him to do something (anything, really) to let her know she's not alone in her feelings. And he won't do it; refuses to, in fact.

I feel very strongly about the fact that Jack couldn't have been the one to make the first step precisely because of their ranks. There would always be that niggling little doubt that he somehow took advantage of his position which is why I think that Sam should have made a move first instead of waiting for him. Which is why, in turn, Threads work for me, even though I hate the execution of the barbeque scene.

Reckoning

Great reviews of Reckoning girls!

I too have nothing to add to discussion - I would be just gushing how awesome these 2 episodes are, because they are nearly perfect in my mind.

I have only 3 small quibbles:

I also think that Sam's interaction with Baal, I sense the loathing even when she's playing nice, is strongly colored by the fact that she hasn't forgotten what he did to Jack.

That's a first one. I don't really see any Baal loathing from either Sam or the other characters, nothing that goes beyond your standard "you are an arrogant, pompous a**" hatred anyway, and I miss it. I don't know how either one of them could be so casual around Baal knowing what he did to Jack. What's worse, SG-1's attitude towards him became even more flippant in the last 2 seasons.

The other thing is that, like many here, after all the setup with Sam vs RepliCarter I'd have loved to see the final stand-off between them. I love Daniel/RepliCarter stuff and I can't deny that it makes sense, but I still wish Sam had gotten to defeat her nemesis.

Similar situation in SGU:

Spoiler:

I adore season 2 of SGU and there's just one thing I don't like; the writers - RCC to be precise - "pulled RepliCarter" again and after setting up Greer/Simeon conflict throughout the season they suddenly sent Greer away had Rush defeat him. Argh!

The 3rd quibble is that there's no Rak'nor! He's my favourite Jaffa character apart from Teal'c and Bra'tac, he's been with the rebellion from the start and it feels wrong not to have him for the grand finale and victory. Seriously, WTF? Also, with all due respect, Obi Ndefo could act circles around CJ's brother.