Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hlndncr]

Yes, this is true... I suppose he wasn't quite himself at this point, he was still Ancient and part of the ship's computer. So maybe, when he woke up as himself, he didn't remember that Sam was supposedly dead. I mean, he didn't know what the replicator weapon was that he built, so maybe the information of Sam's death was wiped out as well as the Ancient knowledge...?

Most of the memory loss Jack experienced upon being revived was temporary according to Thor. I think it did come back to him about Sam because he asked Thor to scan the planet for human life signs and looked disappointed when there weren't any. He also mentions Sam's life already being sacrificed when he's arguing with Thor for more time to look for and save Sam. IMO he doesn't remember anything about the ant-replicator weapon because it was made with the Ancient knowledge which was removed.

[hlndncr]

Can I just mention that I was a little annoyed that Thor's ship was named the Daniel Jackson. Sam is the one who saved them from the Replicators (and Daniel wasn't even there the last time). I don't understand why Thor didn't name a ship after Sam!

[Akamaimom]

Great reviews everyone! I love this arc--and I'm with the rest of you who see these episodes as really shippy. I think (gagging slightly as I say this) BECAUSE Sam is still with Pete, I see it as creeping into Deep Angst territory. She does abandon him in favor of finding help for Jack. (Squee! Are we allowed to do that on the Ultra Serious Discussion Thread??)

Also, I think that it shows the immaturity of Fifth that he only can recognize the superficial relationship that Sam has with Pete and doesn't imitate the one that might really tempt her to stay in his reality--a relationship in the country with Jack. Would she have been more likely to stay? I'm not certain, but it really would have been interesting to see.

[hlndncr]

Great reviews everyone! I love this arc--and I'm with the rest of you who see these episodes as really shippy. I think (gagging slightly as I say this) BECAUSE Sam is still with Pete, I see it as creeping into Deep Angst territory. She does abandon him in favor of finding help for Jack. (Squee! Are we allowed to do that on the Ultra Serious Discussion Thread??)

Also, I think that it shows the immaturity of Fifth that he only can recognize the superficial relationship that Sam has with Pete and doesn't imitate the one that might really tempt her to stay in his reality--a relationship in the country with Jack. Would she have been more likely to stay? I'm not certain, but it really would have been interesting to see.

I have decided that while the fantasy of domestic bliss with Jack would certainly be tempting to Sam she would have actually been less likely to stay if presented with this fantasy. As you point out, Fifth was too immature to understand her relationship with Jack and so any presentation of this relationship would have seemed even more false and less satisfying than her relationship with (which I think was already the result of an illusion she was creating herself).

[Akamaimom]

I have decided that while the fantasy of domestic bliss with Jack would certainly be tempting to Sam she would have actually been less likely to stay if presented with this fantasy. As you point out, Fifth was too immature to understand her relationship with Jack and so any presentation of this relationship would have seemed even more false and less satisfying than her relationship with (which I think was already the result of an illusion she was creating herself).

So, Fifth was feeding off of her delusion, and it seemed more real to her because she'd convinced herself that it was what she really wanted.

Totally makes sense. Still icky, but logical.

[hlndncr]

So, Fifth was feeding off of her delusion, and it seemed more real to her because she'd convinced herself that it was what she really wanted.

Totally makes sense. Still icky, but logical.

You put that so much better than I did.

What she said!!!

[Akamaimom]

You put that so much better than I did.

What she said!!!

Write it in legalese. Then it would be TOTALLY clear. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Seriously, though. I hear you about the ship name, too. Of ANY of them--Sam has done the most for the Asgard, and who gets all the credit? Jack and Daniel. What the heck? When I heard that, I wanted to kick Thor's little gray heinie.

[hedwig]

Write it in legalese. Then it would be TOTALLY clear. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Seriously, though. I hear you about the ship name, too. Of ANY of them--Sam has done the most for the Asgard, and who gets all the credit? Jack and Daniel. What the heck? When I heard that, I wanted to kick Thor's little gray heinie.

That always annoyed the heck out of me, too. Of all of them, Daniel did the least for the Asgard. But they still named a ship after him and not Sam. Sam and Daniel met the real Thor before Jack did, but Sam was the one who came up with the idea to save the Asgard in "Small Victories". I don't recall Daniel being anywhere around when any "saving the Asgard" happened.

Although I do recall a cute fic that had a little tidbit in it about the Asgard naming their new fleet of ships "The Fleet of Samantha Carter". Better in a fic than not at all. And better a whole fleet being named after her than a mere ship.

In all seriousness(?), though, it was likely because the producers felt they had to stay with the original two Stargate characters in the naming of Asgard ships - though I honestly don't see why (the Asgard weren't even in the first movie). Sam deserved it more than Daniel did.

[Akamaimom]

That always annoyed the heck out of me, too. Of all of them, Daniel did the least for the Asgard. But they still named a ship after him and not Sam. Sam and Daniel met the real Thor before Jack did, but Sam was the one who came up with the idea to save the Asgard in "Small Victories". I don't recall Daniel being anywhere around when any "saving the Asgard" happened.

Although I do recall a cute fic that had a little tidbit in it about the Asgard naming their new fleet of ships "The Fleet of Samantha Carter". Better in a fic than not at all. And better a whole fleet being named after her than a mere ship.

In all seriousness(?), though, it was likely because the producers felt they had to stay with the original two Stargate characters in the naming of Asgard ships - though I honestly don't see why (the Asgard weren't even in the first movie). Sam deserved it more than Daniel did.

Maybe it was in his contract--you know, like his own "and Whoosits as Whatsits" name card he had in the credits.

Whatever, it was lame that Sam didn't have her own ship. Of course, she did get the satisfaction of blowing up Jack's ship. So, that had to be fun. And didn't the Daniel Jackson get destroyed, too? Maybe they named their newest planet after her.

[hedwig]

Maybe it was in his contract--you know, like his own "and Whoosits as Whatsits" name card he had in the credits.

Whatever, it was lame that Sam didn't have her own ship. Of course, she did get the satisfaction of blowing up Jack's ship. So, that had to be fun. And didn't the Daniel Jackson get destroyed, too? Maybe they named their newest planet after her.

Yep. I always thought Sam may have gotten a little secret satisfaction out of blowing up Jack's ship. Daniel's, however, didn't get destroyed, unless it was in "Unending" along with the Asgard. I secretly think that maybe a small group of Asgard didn't join the general lemming leap off the ledge into the abyss with the rest of the Asgard, and maybe Thor is among them, and will reappear in the future.

[hlndncr]

Yep. I always thought Sam may have gotten a little secret satisfaction out of blowing up Jack's ship. Daniel's, however, didn't get destroyed, unless it was in "Unending" along with the Asgard. I secretly think that maybe a small group of Asgard didn't join the general lemming leap off the ledge into the abyss with the rest of the Asgard, and maybe Thor is among them, and will reappear in the future.

Oh please don't get me started on Unending. I'm holding back until we get to it. (And you should be grateful.)

Maybe they expected the ships to get blown up and they liked and respected Sam too much to name Replicator fodder after her.

[Akamaimom]

Yep. I always thought Sam may have gotten a little secret satisfaction out of blowing up Jack's ship. Daniel's, however, didn't get destroyed, unless it was in "Unending" along with the Asgard. I secretly think that maybe a small group of Asgard didn't join the general lemming leap off the ledge into the abyss with the rest of the Asgard, and maybe Thor is among them, and will reappear in the future.

Just as soon as his consciousness is downloaded into a new body.

Because--you know--that never gets old!

[Kate1013]

Re the whole ship naming thing - part of me has always assumed that there was a ship named after each member of SG1, but we only met half of them as the others were off doing other important things. Of course Sam's would be the most advanced one... Maybe each 'name' represented a different type of ship? Like Earth's fleet which are often referred to as 'Deadalus' Class when they are of a certain standard.

[josiane]

Hooray for season 8! Great start, Rachel and hlndncr!

I love New Order too, and agree with you both that it is incredibly shippy, in that really classic SG1 way - the ship just runs right through the centre of the whole thing, simmering beneath the surface, explaining so much about how Sam and Jack behave, yet barely acknowledged explicitly. And I get so many warm fuzzies from the promotion scene - as hlndncr said, there's such a lot of affectionate pride there, it really does come across as a very private moment

Weirdly, this is a very shippy episode for all that Jack isn't in it in person. Sam is absolutely determined to rescue Jack. Jack and his situation are the first things on her mind every time she talks to someone: in the briefing, with Daniel and Teal'c, with Teal'c, with Thor - the only exception is Fifth and even then it was Jack who ordered him to leave Fifth behind so every interaction she has practically is associated with Jack in some way.

I love the scene with Weir because this is Sam blackmailing her boss to allow her to rescue Jack. She uses her own personal leverage to get what she wants. She risks her life to save him (with Teal'c along for the ride) and even leaves Daniel behind as a contingency plan to save Jack if she and Teal'c are not successful.

Indeed. Sam really pushes things here - and I do wonder whether she would have done so quite as much if Hammond had still been there? Hammond I think would have seen right through her, and I think she would have realised that and been a little more circumspect perhaps. I know we've seen Sam push for rescuing Jack fairly hard with Hammond before it's true (Paradise Lost in particular springs to mind) so perhaps she would have, but I don't think she'd have ever in a million years tried blackmail in the way she does with Weir. I wonder whether the fact that Weir is a civilian and new to the whole thing makes Sam feel she can get away with it.

Ah, Pete. Well I think the mention of him here is to support the appearance in Part 2 when Fifth uses him in his fantasy world. But to pick up on some recent discussions, given the timing - I can't see that Pete has featured very heavily in Sam's thoughts for the weeks Jack's been missing (she literally is completely focused on Jack); she's taken aback by Teal'c's question and her answer that everything is greta is clearly false enough that Teal'c gives her the eyebrow. I personally think her answer that it's hard to say goodbye to someone you care about (not love) when you know you may never come back, is less about how she feels about Pete and more to do with her choice: she's chosen to risk her life to save one man (the one she knows she loves) and has left the man she is dating back on Earth. I'm sure that is causing all kinds of internal questions and debates that she's suppressing and trying not to think about.

I think Sam's reaction to Teal'c's question is very revealing, as you say, but also is entirely in keeping with the way Sam always reacts when anyone asks her about Pete. She's almost embarrassed to be asked about him, I always feel, as if she's on the defensive about having a relationship with someone outside of the SGC. Not exactly an encouraging sign for a long and meaningful relationship!

Favorite Scene:
When the team finds Sam alive after the Replicators have fled, the entire team is of course relieved to have her back, but the barely contained emotions between Jack and Sam to see one another alive are palpable.

Oh yes. And it's such a 'them' reunion too

I also think it was a good move characterwise. The whole team had been together in the same roles for seven years, which was really stretching credulity (of course everything else about the show is so realistic ). Having Jack become “the Man” brought back into play some of the leadership and diplomatic skills his character seemed to have lost with Daniel’s return.

I agree with this - Jack in season 8 just makes so much more sense than in season 7, where his absence is really notable at times. I'm going to hold back on saying anything more though, otherwise I'll pre-empt myself for Zero Hour

Fifth:
I find myself thinking of Fifth as a tragic character; someone I feel sorry for more than anything. Through his own emotional immaturity and infatuation with Sam he is first deceived and trapped in the time dilation field, then tries and fails to get Sam to love him so he lets her go, and after creating a version of Sam that he’s sure will bring him happiness she too deceives him and eventually destroys him. Other than maybe the brief time when he’s torturing Sam in revenge for leaving him (and I must note that AT’s acting was amazing in the scene where she begs him for mercy), he never really had the upper hand. It seems he was destined for rejection and failure. Sam’s responsibility in the tragedy of Fifth I think is best left for the Gemini discussion. I’ll just say that in the end Fifth fell victim to the curse of Sam because, like pretty much all her suitors before him, he made the mistake of trying to drag her into his world and place his emotions and expectations on her.

Jack, OTH, does not need to drag Sam into his world because their parallel experiences strengthen the natural connection and chemistry between them. The torture she endures at the hands of Fifth for example has strong parallels to Jack’s experience with Baal. And again Stargate’s common failing of not showing some consequences within and among the characters from such experiences is a real shame.

I was going to make the exact same connection! The way in which Sam and Jack's experiences over the course of the series mirror each other so often is a really strong but subtle way of creating a connection between them both within the characters and in the minds of the audience. Personally I don't mind that they don't explore these emotional fallouts so much though - I like having the room to make and explore the connections myself.

On the fact that Fifth's illusion for Sam included Pete...

Also, I think that it shows the immaturity of Fifth that he only can recognize the superficial relationship that Sam has with Pete and doesn't imitate the one that might really tempt her to stay in his reality--a relationship in the country with Jack. Would she have been more likely to stay? I'm not certain, but it really would have been interesting to see.

I have decided that while the fantasy of domestic bliss with Jack would certainly be tempting to Sam she would have actually been less likely to stay if presented with this fantasy. As you point out, Fifth was too immature to understand her relationship with Jack and so any presentation of this relationship would have seemed even more false and less satisfying than her relationship with (which I think was already the result of an illusion she was creating herself).

Yes. This

[Gatetrixer]

Write it in legalese. Then it would be TOTALLY clear. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Seriously, though. I hear you about the ship name, too. Of ANY of them--Sam has done the most for the Asgard, and who gets all the credit? Jack and Daniel. What the heck? When I heard that, I wanted to kick Thor's little gray heinie.

And then there was Daniel and his friendship? with Reece. Would Thor know about what happened with Reece and her replicator pets? Sorry, that's what they were, weren't they. Memory on that ep is fuzzy.