Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Lucycat]

Wow, all valid points, fer sure! I think I fall in the middle of the pack. I don't think Sam was in love with Pete during the time of LOST CITY, but I do believe she considered herself in a committed relationship with him. She had made the decision to move on from her feelings for Jack in GRACE. I think she was reminded how difficult that was during HEROES, when he was almost killed... and during LOST CITY, too.

I agree that Sam did everything in her power to help Jack. I have no doubt. She went with Teal'c to find the Asgard and was kidnapped by Fifth for her efforts. Tiny parallel with Abyss, if you want to see it... Jack sacrificed himself and took on the symbiote for her, and was eventually captured and tortured by Ba'al. Here she goes to the end of the universe for him, and is captured and torrued by Fifth. Maybe a bit of a stretch... but it's to reiterate what extremes the two would go to for each other.

It's during this torture session that we see that Sam does indeed have feelings for Pete. Why else would Fifth create that make-believe world if he didn't see Sam's relationship with Pete in her mind? When Fifth goes into a rage Sam knows it's not Pete, because, she says, Pete wouldn't act like that... testament that she has spent time with him. Not necessarily that she's in love with him (I don't believe she was), just that she's in a relationship with him.

Being a devout shipper, I, of course, did not like the direction the writers went in Season 8. LOST CITY was originally written as a feature, but when that didn't happen, it became the finale. I don't think they knew there would be a season 8 at that point, so when it was renewed, they wanted to put Sam and Jack back to angst mode and continue with the boyfriend angle. (IMO)

[EvenstarSRV]

I haven't been able to visit much lately but I've been really enjoying the discussions on the last few episodes. I agree with many of you that Hayes was such a fun character and Lost City is one of the best episodes of Stargate, it really runs the gamut much like Heroes did IMO.

I don't think she did lose any determination (I think this is where I'm not exactly seeing what you're getting at). There was nothing she could do - absolutely nothing. She doesn't have the medical prowess to save Jack when they thaw him out (and I'm certain they had a team working on exactly that). As they told us, there were international issues at work, so she couldn't go down there (not that it would have done any good anyway). In the case of Edora, she COULD do something. That's the primary difference. I don't think it has anything to do with Pete. I'm just arguing that she, at the very least, believes herself in love with Pete.

I very much agree with the bolded, I don't think the fact that Sam is currently dating Pete would have any bearing on her determination to save Jack after the events of Lost City. IMO, even though she couldn't go anything medically, as Lucycat points out she still tried to contact the Asgard, resorting to even blackmailing Weir into letting her and Teal'c go on what was potentially a one-way trip. She admits to Teal'c that it was difficult saying goodbye to Pete before she left, but she still went through with the mission.

As to whether she continued dating Pete as normal between Lost City and New Order, since they had a bit of a long distance relationship and likely conflicting schedules, I think it was probably fairly normal for them to not see each for weeks at a time. So during the couple of months Jack was frozen, I can see them mostly calling each other and perhaps seeing each other at least once before Sam left to contact the Asgard.

re the Pete arc in general, while I agree there are parts that could have been better written, I'm in camp that believes that Sam came to sincerely loved him, even while she still had feelings for Jack (IMO you can be in love or love more than one person at a time). This is mostly because it is canon that Sam gets engaged and comes within days of marrying Pete, and I just can't see her doing that simply because Jack is unavailable or she thinks he doesn't love her anymore, I don't think she would ever be that desperate.

[hlndncr]

I very much agree with the bolded, I don't think the fact that Sam is currently dating Pete would have any bearing on her determination to save Jack after the events of Lost City. IMO, even though she couldn't go anything medically, as Lucycat points out she still tried to contact the Asgard, resorting to even blackmailing Weir into letting her and Teal'c go on what was potentially a one-way trip. She admits to Teal'c that it was difficult saying goodbye to Pete before she left, but she still went through with the mission.

As to whether she continued dating Pete as normal between Lost City and New Order, since they had a bit of a long distance relationship and likely conflicting schedules, I think it was probably fairly normal for them to not see each for weeks at a time. So during the couple of months Jack was frozen, I can see them mostly calling each other and perhaps seeing each other at least once before Sam left to contact the Asgard.

re the Pete arc in general, while I agree there are parts that could have been better written, I'm in camp that believes that Sam came to sincerely loved him, even while she still had feelings for Jack (IMO you can be in love or love more than one person at a time). This is mostly because it is canon that Sam gets engaged and comes within days of marrying Pete, and I just can't see her doing that simply because Jack is unavailable or she thinks he doesn't love her anymore, I don't think she would ever be that desperate.

I'll save most of my comments on the and Weir situation for when we get to New Order.

I will say that it is just as plausible to believe someone can get engaged without actually being in love as it is for someone to be in love with more than one person, and it's not always about being desperate. You can't ignore the fact (well I suppose you can, but it makes little sense to me) that Jack not being available is the catalyst for Sam dating Pete. If Jack were available she'd be with him! Yes, she could choose to be alone, which she did for quite some time, but after the events in Grace she decided to try something different. But one of the things the events in Lost City (and even to certain extent New Order) proves for me is that Jack is her first choice and she would dump if being with Jack became an option.

[Lucycat]

I agree that Sam first started dating Pete because she wanted to try to get over her feelings for Jack, and that she would be with him (JACK) if it was allowed.

But would she dump Pete outright if Jack suddenly became available? As a shipper I want to say YES, but I don't know if she'd do that, unless Jack actually made his feelings known. And you know how self-sacrificing he is ... if he thought she was happy with Pete he probably would not pursue... imo, of course!

[Nynaeve506]

Maybe it makes me a bad!shipper but I'm of the opinion that Sam loved Pete....for a time and not for the right reasons. But we've had that discussion

Would Sam have left Pete for Jack? I'm not so sure she would have. Ultimately, she left Pete because she realized that her life was not going to fit in the box she wanted it to fit (and thought it needed to) and that Pete wasn't right for her. I don't believe Jack would have come up to Sam at any point and said "I love you, leave him." In fact, I think he works hard to distance himself because she's in the relationship. Perhaps if she inadvertently came across evidence of Jack's feelings she might have realized sooner that Pete was wrong for her...but still the break up would have been centered on the wrongness of Pete not the rightness of Jack.

[Akamaimom]

Maybe it makes me a bad!shipper but I'm of the opinion that Sam loved Pete....for a time and not for the right reasons. But we've had that discussion

Would Sam have left Pete for Jack? I'm not so sure she would have. Ultimately, she left Pete because she realized that her life was not going to fit in the box she wanted it to fit (and thought it needed to) and that Pete wasn't right for her. I don't believe Jack would have come up to Sam at any point and said "I love you, leave him." In fact, I think he works hard to distance himself because she's in the relationship. Perhaps if she inadvertently came across evidence of Jack's feelings she might have realized sooner that Pete was wrong for her...but still the break up would have been centered on the wrongness of Pete not the rightness of Jack.

I agree that Sam loved Pete. There are different depths of love--and I feel certain that Sam did indeed feel love for Pete. That doesn't mean to say that Pete would have been the best choice for her in the long run. I'm not sure that the marriage would have lasted--even though I do believe that they both would have entered into it with the best of intentions. I think that eventually the lack of trust and respect exhibited to different degrees by both of them would have festered and overflowed.

Marriage can work if both parties are dedicated to the marriage, even if they aren't completely, madly, and totally in love and lust with each other. It won't be blissful if that's all you've got, but if you have two people of honor and integrity who make that choice to remain together, then they can. Having success as a common goal can be very bonding. Passion is not necessary in a marriage--but it really really really really really helps.

But what I fervently believe is that they both would have made a good go of it, and that they could have been happy, if Sam weren't more deeply in love and respect and trust with Jack than with Pete. I don't think that Pete is a bad guy--and I don't think that Sam is a saint. I think that going as far as to say "yes" to Pete while trying to sublimate her feelings for Jack is a mistake, just as I think that Jack's NOT telling Sam how he truly feels is a mistake.

I'm just glad that she wised up, and that he wised up, and that Pete went away, and that Jack and Sam are now (in my mind, at least), together.

[Nynaeve506]

I agree that Sam loved Pete. There are different depths of love--and I feel certain that Sam did indeed feel love for Pete. That doesn't mean to say that Pete would have been the best choice for her in the long run. I'm not sure that the marriage would have lasted--even though I do believe that they both would have entered into it with the best of intentions. I think that eventually the lack of trust and respect exhibited to different degrees by both of them would have festered and overflowed.

Marriage can work if both parties are dedicated to the marriage, even if they aren't completely, madly, and totally in love and lust with each other. It won't be blissful if that's all you've got, but if you have two people of honor and integrity who make that choice to remain together, then they can. Having success as a common goal can be very bonding. Passion is not necessary in a marriage--but it really really really really really helps.

But what I fervently believe is that they both would have made a good go of it, and that they could have been happy, if Sam weren't more deeply in love and respect and trust with Jack than with Pete. I don't think that Pete is a bad guy--and I don't think that Sam is a saint. I think that going as far as to say "yes" to Pete while trying to sublimate her feelings for Jack is a mistake, just as I think that Jack's NOT telling Sam how he truly feels is a mistake.

I'm just glad that she wised up, and that he wised up, and that Pete went away, and that Jack and Sam are now (in my mind, at least), together.

I agree. And that gives me a plot bunny that will sit on my shelf while I contemplate if it's viable.

[siles]

I haven't been able to visit much lately but I've been really enjoying the discussions on the last few episodes. I agree with many of you that Hayes was such a fun character and Lost City is one of the best episodes of Stargate, it really runs the gamut much like Heroes did IMO.



I very much agree with the bolded, I don't think the fact that Sam is currently dating Pete would have any bearing on her determination to save Jack after the events of Lost City. IMO, even though she couldn't go anything medically, as Lucycat points out she still tried to contact the Asgard, resorting to even blackmailing Weir into letting her and Teal'c go on what was potentially a one-way trip. She admits to Teal'c that it was difficult saying goodbye to Pete before she left, but she still went through with the mission.

As to whether she continued dating Pete as normal between Lost City and New Order, since they had a bit of a long distance relationship and likely conflicting schedules, I think it was probably fairly normal for them to not see each for weeks at a time. So during the couple of months Jack was frozen, I can see them mostly calling each other and perhaps seeing each other at least once before Sam left to contact the Asgard.

re the Pete arc in general, while I agree there are parts that could have been better written, I'm in camp that believes that Sam came to sincerely loved him, even while she still had feelings for Jack (IMO you can be in love or love more than one person at a time). This is mostly because it is canon that Sam gets engaged and comes within days of marrying Pete, and I just can't see her doing that simply because Jack is unavailable or she thinks he doesn't love her anymore, I don't think she would ever be that desperate.

You can get engaged to someone or even married without being in love/loving them. IMHO Sam loved the idea of Pete (a husband who cares for her) more than she loved him.

[siles]

I agree that Sam loved Pete. There are different depths of love--and I feel certain that Sam did indeed feel love for Pete. That doesn't mean to say that Pete would have been the best choice for her in the long run. I'm not sure that the marriage would have lasted--even though I do believe that they both would have entered into it with the best of intentions. I think that eventually the lack of trust and respect exhibited to different degrees by both of them would have festered and overflowed.

Marriage can work if both parties are dedicated to the marriage, even if they aren't completely, madly, and totally in love and lust with each other. It won't be blissful if that's all you've got, but if you have two people of honor and integrity who make that choice to remain together, then they can. Having success as a common goal can be very bonding. Passion is not necessary in a marriage--but it really really really really really helps.

But what I fervently believe is that they both would have made a good go of it, and that they could have been happy, if Sam weren't more deeply in love and respect and trust with Jack than with Pete. I don't think that Pete is a bad guy--and I don't think that Sam is a saint. I think that going as far as to say "yes" to Pete while trying to sublimate her feelings for Jack is a mistake, just as I think that Jack's NOT telling Sam how he truly feels is a mistake.

I'm just glad that she wised up, and that he wised up, and that Pete went away, and that Jack and Sam are now (in my mind, at least), together.

If Jack were to tell Sam about his feelings while he was her CO, would he commit a court-marshable offense?
I admit I hate Pete and Sam to a degree - mainly because she accepted Pete's proposal while she was still in love with Jack. She wasn't being faithful to Pete, or Jack (not that she needed) not even to her heart.
And I'm still sad that we are here almost 14 years after SG-1 started without a S/J confirmation; and by the looks of things, with SGU cancellation and the franchise on life-support, we'll have to keep on waiting for a couple of years. I'm furious with myself for still being obsessed with this ship after all these years
Sadly while Sam/Pete got kisses, dinners, dances, bedroom scenes, proposals, Sam/Jack shippers had to contend with few angsty looks and dialogues, 5 kisses, several hugs, fishing trip with friends and a "Not exactly"
Sorry for the rant, blame it on being all alone on Xmas

[Nynaeve506]

In theory, yes, Jack COULD find himself facing a court-martial if there were charges pressed by Sam (unlikely) for sexual harassment. If he admitted his feelings to her, he would be breaking quite a few codes and would most likely end up with a reprimand and something in his permanent file followed by reassignment.

Of course, for that to happen, Sam would have to tell someone, so theoretically if she kept quiet and told him that if he retired she'd consider a relationship, then he could put in his retirement papers and be done.

But...more complications would arise as to why he's requesting retirement or reassignment. If there's a stop loss in effect, then he'd be told to cease and desist any inappropriate relations with Sam. Additionally, one or the other would probably face removal from SG-1 (I've argued before that Hammond was obligated to remove them the second he realized there was something "more" between them in terms of emotions. No they weren't technically violating regulations, but the spirit of the regulations was broken).

Either way it becomes sticky. Now, with a good-natured CO like Hammond, it's likely that he'd try to expedite things without creating drama. People rarely stay in the same position for very long - and SG-1 is a huge anomaly, people are transferred in and out on very regular basis, so at this point, if one or both requested a transfer it wouldn't look irregular or out of sorts.

Given the nature of Jack and the nature of Sam, it's improbably that either would discuss their emotions on the subject.

[hedwig]

You can get engaged to someone or even married without being in love/loving them. IMHO Sam loved the idea of Pete (a husband who cares for her) more than she loved him.

Exactly.

If Jack were to tell Sam about his feelings while he was her CO, would he commit a court-marshable offense?
I admit I hate Pete and Sam to a degree - mainly because she accepted Pete's proposal while she was still in love with Jack. She wasn't being faithful to Pete, or Jack (not that she needed) not even to her heart.

Sadly, this can apply to a large percentage of people in marriages and non-marriage relationships today. People convince themselves they are in love, when what they are feeling isn't love at all. It's a need of some kind that's being fulfilled by being in a relationship that winds up in marriage, and somewhere down the road one or both people in the marriage realize they don't love each other and never did.

Plus, just look at all the relationships that wind up in divorce or they even part amicably (even though they claim they still love each other/are in love with the other) and one or both parties almost immediately has another partner when they haven't even resolved their feelings for the previous person (if that makes any sense).

I don't think Sam was being unfaithful to anyone, since technically she and Jack had never even been in that kind of relationship. Her heart was Jack's, but she chose to move on (move forward), and I don't see that as being unfaithful to anyone (except maybe to herself).

[majorsal]

Frankly, I'll be honest and say finding out Sam was still with Pete in New Order was a big disconnect for me after Lost City. I'd come out of Lost City with 'yay Sam loves Jack; he loves her yay' and New Order was like 'huh?? she's still seeing Pete?? huh???'

boredom, and my continued hatred of this s/p storyline's making me respond to this.

'lost city' was set up to be the series finale, and we saw in many, many ways sam coming to terms with her feelings for jack in the episode. actually, as a ship resolution, i liked 'lost city' more than 'threads'. to me, 'lost city' resolved the issues sam was having with her feelings for jack, b/c, again, to me, she realized she truly did love him and...

sam continuing to see pete sucked. after seeing how she reacted and responded in 'lost city', i can see no reason for her to continue with pete. even if she still wasn't 100 percent sure of jack's feelings for her, she knew 'her' feelings by that point (was done with her doubts from 'grace'), so... continuing her relationship with pete was, to me, 100 percent the writers wanting to drag out the s/j situation another season. it's *always* wanting to drag out the resolution.

i don't even let it reflect back to sam's character, but totally to the writers and their agenda.

[majorsal]

And while it is canon the way she was portrayed in the episodes, I find that the way she was written is pretty shameful. I think the whole story arc did a big disservice to that character. I honestly don't see the Sam Carter I came to "know" over the 7 years of the show as being that weak willed (my opinion) as to toss out the strength she's developed over those 7 years for a guy who was so disrespectful to who she was.

the sam carter i'd grown to know and love would have *never* continued with a guy that ran background checks on her and followed her around behind her back, let alone barged into a stakeout and almost caused the death of her, and by extension, her team mates.

the last scene of 'chimera', of her bringing him a gift and telling him all about the program... wow. just when did sam become a doormat? :/

[majorsal]

And I'm still sad that we are here almost 14 years after SG-1 started without a S/J confirmation; and by the looks of things, with SGU cancellation and the franchise on life-support, we'll have to keep on waiting for a couple of years. I'm furious with myself for still being obsessed with this ship after all these years
Sadly while Sam/Pete got kisses, dinners, dances, bedroom scenes, proposals, Sam/Jack shippers had to contend with few angsty looks and dialogues, 5 kisses, several hugs, fishing trip with friends and a "Not exactly"
Sorry for the rant, blame it on being all alone on Xmas

guh, yes.

[Lucycat]

In theory, yes, Jack COULD find himself facing a court-martial if there were charges pressed by Sam (unlikely) for sexual harassment. If he admitted his feelings to her, he would be breaking quite a few codes and would most likely end up with a reprimand and something in his permanent file followed by reassignment.

Jack did admit his feelings for Sam (and vise versa) in Divide & Conquer, so in the real AF (not a TV show!) they should have been separated at that point, despite their "leave it in the room" comment. Janet, Teal'c and Freya/Anise witnessed the exchange. Now, we know Teal'c wouldn't say anything, but Janet would probably be obligated being CMO, despite the fact she is their friend. And I have no doubt Anise/Freya would also report her findings.

Anyway, I digress... my question for Nyna, since she served in the AF... if Sam is transferred to another SG team, then would she and Jack have been allowed to date or would they still been off limits since they are still serving at the same base, and he is still a superior officer, if not her CO??