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    OOPS. Double post. Weird.
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      Great review!! Here's a little of my two cents:

      It may just be my faulty memory, but I feel like the fight scene in this episode is the first battle that really feels like it's part of a huge war. A lot of the earlier missions have seemed more covert and surgical, versus this is obviously a large assault. I think a lot of this has to do with scale (and probably a bigger SFX budget?) but the cinematography also plays a huge part in setting that tone. The frequent close in shots along with the camera movement really give a sense of chaos.

      This scene is one of the most important scenes in the episode—the single non-military reporter lecturing the military about secrecy and freedom. It’s a fascinating topic—the program is, after all, secret. And this particular debate has waged for centuries. How much is too much to know? How much is enough? How much is too little? It’s also fascinating in light of current events—information that has been leaked in the past few days that has put a damper on diplomacy. Bregman is of the opinion that everything should be available to the press, whereas the military obviously believes the opposite. Is there a happy middle? I love his speech—even if I personally don’t agree with all of it (but I do agree with a lot of it). It’s one of the most honest monologues on the show—very heartfelt, and Saul does a fabulous job with it. I think it’s topical and current, and thought-provoking.
      I think an important thing to note about this scene though is it's placement. While what he says is important, and out of context very true, when placed in the context of him chasing and harassing someone who is obviously grieving it makes his comments seem a bit crass and sets him up as the extreme - that the truth should be revealed no matter what the cost. I think the following scene in the commissary brings this home as the potential weight of what happened begins to sink in. Of course we later see a change of heart in Bregman which I feel ties the conflict between the two extremes together nicely. I really enjoyed how they handled this transition. Once Bregman sees the truth and he gets the "action" he's been dying for he understands the conflict and the risks that these people are in every day. I believe he gives the tape back because he realizes that he's stepped over a line, and that it has nothing to do with state secrets but with the personal lives of the individuals involved.

      Why is it that episodes where they are going to kill a character off is when that character really shines?
      To make it more tragic of course ...

      I really don't have much to add to the Sam/Jack parts of this episode - I think you hit the nail right on the hammer with your comments.

      However, I think as we might consider that the scene with Sam running from the Gateroom crying could be taken as a shippy moment. At that point, we, as the viewer, are being led to believe that it was O'Neill that died, and her very visible grief is one of the first clues pointing in this direction (aside from the obvious scene where he gets shot). Of course we learn that all of these dropped hints are red herrings, but at that particular moment we are supposed to believe she is grieving for O'Neill. Which brings me to my text topic...

      Coming late into the series, and not really protecting myself from spoilers I had an interesting perspective on this episode. I KNEW someone was going to die, and I also knew who - I just didn't know the specifics of the how and the surrounding story. I feel like this cheapened some aspects for me in that I was aware that O'Neill was safe, even though the episode tries to lead you to believe that is not the case. Aside from the grieving Sam we have the scenes where they mention O'Neill was hit (and not moving), and where Woolsey is talking about the important assets that were lost on this mission. Of course there's also the big hint that he might be okay in the demonstration of the new vest - a savvy viewer may have caught on from the beginning that these hints were all part of a false trail.

      Not knowing the how of Janet's death still made the revealing scene shocking and tragic for me. I think what really hit home was another key theme of the episode - that it wasn't about the individual heroes of SG-1 that we watch in each episode, but the entire staff of the SGC, and, in context, all the heroes of the armed services. I think the setup in Part 1 with SG-13 really pulled this idea together. We get to see them as not just "extras" but as individuals, with their one lives. We understand the very real risk they're taking every day.

      Well that's all I have for now. I watched it pretty recently (yay! I'm all caught up!) and went back to watch a few clips to write this out and I had to stop myself before I started crying like a big baby all over again. Great episode!

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        Great review.
        I think Heroes I & II are one of the finest pieces of work I have ever seen.
        When I rewatch it, even though I know Janet is the one killed, it is the reaction of the men watching the video tape that gets to me every time.
        And the 'hug' it is the most loving moment in the series. No open mouth kiss, no sex scene could touch it.
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          I just realized that I left a whole sentence in the Daniel section unfinished. All I was going to add there was, "Character."

          Duh. That's what I get for posting before dawn.
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            I don't have any thing really to add, as everyone's kinda already said it. There are some brilliant cuts, edits and shots in this ep, obviously the "this is so unbelievably boring" is the best one


            Obviously I was very sad to see Janet go, but what an ep for her to leave... and as has already been said I loved the focus on SG1 AND the other players - from interviews with Siler and Harriman to the set up with SG13 (isn't Dixon the coolest?!)
            Is it just me or every time you watch the end of the ep do you really want to be able to watch the whole documentary? (am over geeking-out???)
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              Originally posted by Aveo_amacus View Post
              Is it just me or every time you watch the end of the ep do you really want to be able to watch the whole documentary? (am over geeking-out???)
              I'd totally love to see the whole thing! Based on his change in opinion I'm sure he did a great job honoring the team and the work they do.

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                Originally posted by Gumarx View Post
                I'd totally love to see the whole thing! Based on his change in opinion I'm sure he did a great job honoring the team and the work they do.
                That's the thing, though. I'm not certain that his opinion changed. I think that Bregman was so focused on creating a dynamic piece that being shut out of all the action really irked him--because he was trying to make something that truly showed the scope of the program. How could he do that without any idea of what the SGC really did? I think that he believed that the way that the personnel dodged him and shut him out hampered his ability to do that, and he was angry because he is a perfectionist--he was trying to do right by his project.

                The White House wouldn't send someone like Michael Moore in to make a film like that--because Moore would be antagonistic towards the subject matter. The goal of the piece was to celebrate it--to make it more accessible to the public. Something negative wouldn't accomplish that. Bregman's orders must have been to shine a positive light on the program--therefore, he must have been perceived as sympathetic to the military and to the program in order to have been chosen. His manner and personality was what made him seem as if he were anti-military, when I think that the very fact that he'd been chosen to do the film in the first place belies that idea.
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                  I'm going to stick my head up to be shot off.

                  I love Woolsey. I love Bob Picardo and I think, watching this episode and KNOWING what I know about Woolsey, I think he's one of the most unique characters in Stargate.

                  Heroes is my favorite episode (tied with Abyss). Killing off Janet was, well, spectacular. This episode wouldn't have worked with an unknown. They had to kill off a beloved character.

                  There are several reasons why I adore this episode:

                  1. Hug. The end.

                  2. My dad did AF black op as a C-130. He's been shot at. He's been based in places being bombed. He put his life on the line time and time again and he has a lot of classified missions under his belt that I probably have no inkling of. As a little girl, I'd kiss my daddy goodbye and know that he might not come home - and that we might never know what he was doing or why. Heroes makes me tear up and cry every single time. Not because of Janet but because it does such a beautiful tribute to the real life service men and women.

                  3. Dixon. I love Adam Baldwin

                  4. Politics. So very real.

                  Why I love Woolsey:

                  Bob Picardo aside (really, he's a good enough reason IMO), he represents a very valid position. Things shrouded in secrecy have no accountability. I'm of the personal opinion that politicians should not dictate wars, however, to some extent, part of being a good citizen in a democracy is being educated. Knowledge is *vital* to the survival of democracy.

                  On one hand, as the viewer, it frustrating to hear a bureaucrat come in and grill good men and women on split second, under the fire decisions. But imagine a world where no one bothered to *ask* those questions. What could a government conceivably get away with? Additionally, we *hate* to talk numbers, but someone has to do it. It's a distasteful job, but again, it's a level of accountability. Corporate organizations, such as my own, undergo regular auditing because of companies like Enron.

                  Unlike many other IOA characters, Woolsey genuinely believes in these principles. Money, money that Americans work hard for and sweat for is being funneled into a program they know nothing about. Families are losing members and they don't even get a decent explanation. Lives are lost, Resources committed. And no one knows. Woolsey is the sort of guy that is the painful side of reality - in an ideal world we could trust that all of the officers and every corporate CEO was trustworthy and wouldn't dare do anything but what is right...well, we know in some very shameful ways that isn't true. I'm grateful for Woolsey's character because he's *genuine*. He doesn't have an ulterior motive. His motive is precisely what he says it is - to provide civilian oversight to the military. Not control. Oversight. Auditing.

                  But we're here to talk about S/J

                  That hug. Wow. Egads. Wow. Sam's look when Jack goes down. This episode demonstrates how deep their *love* goes (I love the commentary - these two people love each other). I loved how Jack looks at her as she starts to cry and the intensity of his gaze.

                  :: thunk ::

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                    I agree with you, Nynaenve, on most of what you said. I just feel that I don't like Woolsey in this stage of the series. I like him later on SGA--but in this particular episode, he's a jerk.

                    I do agree that there needs to be oversight on secret things like this. But oversight by people who aren't tainted as are the NID. What background does Woolsey have in this sort of operation? From what Sam says, isn't he a business man? Of course there is the necessity to melt evaluate the monetary aspect of operations and programs like the SGC. But for him--a single entity--to come in already having made up his mind as to the outcome of his investigation is unacceptable to me. It allows for way too much power to be in the hands of one person. Oversight should be done by a group of people knowledgable about both sides of the issue--not one individual already hardened in a certain way of thinking.

                    I don't hate Woolsey. I don't like him--for another few episodes, at least. He will eventually make himself better in my opinion. But I do think that he should have at least pretended to be impartial and investigative. True investigation requires that you don't already have your mind made up.
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                      Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
                      His manner and personality was what made him seem as if he were anti-military, when I think that the very fact that he'd been chosen to do the film in the first place belies that idea.
                      As far as a change I saw it not as taking an anti-military stance to begin with but more of an aggressive stance against the secrecy of the project. I guess in the end I still feel he holds that same opinion in regards to the secrecy in general. However, in the beginning I feel his outbursts show that he held the individuals involved responsible for the secrecy instead of TPTB. His frustration over trying to find a story probably fuels the aggressive behavior we see in his outbursts. It also seems, at least from the questions he's asking and the way he's putting things together, that part of his focus is on the secrecy of the project and his belief that it should be made public. I think, prior to him seeing the tape, his movie would have portrayed the staff as good people, but it still would have had an agenda in regards to the secrecy of the project.

                      By the end he's become less antagonistic (consider his behavior towards Jack) and has learned to respect the individuals involved and see them as people instead of just an extension of their program IMHO. It probably helps that he got what he was looking for in the end, but I think the tape was more than just the action he was looking for. It painted the picture for him that we got to see in Part 1 - the human side of SG-13 and the team. So to summarize I didn't properly communicate what sort of change I perceived in Bregman - not a change in his stance on the AF but more a change in attitude towards the members of the program and the secrets they must keep.

                      Originally posted by Nynaeve506 View Post
                      Heroes makes me tear up and cry every single time. Not because of Janet but because it does such a beautiful tribute to the real life service men and women.
                      This was really what had me bawling as well - the tears were falling long before Janet took that blast.

                      As far as Woolsey I think if I took this episode alone I'd have felt like he was a total tool. Having a few more episodes under my belt (haven't finished season 8 yet but I've seen Woolsey again) I think I view him more as a pawn. He has a very business like idea about how things should be run and he was picked for this job by Kinsey because Kinsey knew exactly how Woolsey would react to the evidence placed in front of him (like someone looking at the bottom line).

                      And back to the whole purpose of this thread - That hug really is the best, poor Jack can't stand to see Sam all upset like that.

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                        I do want to clarify that my picture of Woolsey is completely colored by what I know of him now. If it had just been this episode, I too would have remained thoroughly irritated at him. But now, I can't separate the character anymore

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                          Alright, I'm getting ready to dodge the rotten tomatoes that are about to be thrown at me, but I'm just going to say this anyway: I don't like Heroes. It is on my list of least favorite episodes, maybe not bottom 10 but definitely bottom 20 (of the first eight seasons because I put S9 & S10 an a whole other category of awful).

                          I'll start with the things I don't like:

                          1) The story is thin.
                          An SG team is ambushed. There's a less than successful rescue. Someone dies. Everyone is upset about it.

                          The rest IMHO was just filler. In fact I see these episodes (especially part one because there is so little that happens in it) as a cross between a clip show - without the clips - and Wormhole X-Treme.

                          Let me explain. Most of the "documentary" stuff is a bunch of people I don't know sitting around talking with the main cast shunted off to the sidelines. They are either rehashing past episodes or saying things I already know, or telling inside jokes ("I say Chevron 7 locked," Siler in the infirmary, lots of blinky lights that don't do anything, etc.) I agree with Bregman; it's just boring!

                          2) The investigation is ridiculous.
                          The week before they lost 64 people, an off-world base, and alliances with 2 major allies with nary a peep from the politicos, but one medical officer dies (or an SG team leader as we are being led to believe at that time) and that's the proof Kinsey needs to show that the program is mismanaged?!

                          3) Janet dies.
                          You will never convince me it was a good idea to kill off Janet; so don't try.

                          First, she ultimately proved to be irreplaceable. A strong character in the role of SGC doctor has always been important to the show and after Janet was gone, they went through a succession of non-characters and finally settled on a pale immitation of the original. Maybe for some that just shows what a strong impact and bold move it was to have her die, but that brings me to my next point . . .

                          It became almost cliche to kill off the doctor. If you wanted to make people cry or do something "daring" you killed off the universally loved CMO for no apparent reason. In Atlantis they proved that you could write a compelling doctor character that wasn't Janet if you actually tried, and then they showed that you can always use the death of that character as an easy way to manipulate the audience's emotions. Then you can once again create a lesser replacement (that in many ways felt to me like they were again unsuccessfully trying to recreate Janet). Seriously, I'm surprised TJ's not dead yet (except that they can't really bring in a replacement), and she does remind me a lot of Janet.

                          Finally, Janet's death began the slow slide toward the dismantling of the series. In the course of the next year, in addition to Janet, we'll loose Hammond, Jacob and finally Jack. This is the beginning of the swan song for classic SG1, and it just makes me sad.

                          4) The diversionary tactics were insulting and disrepectful.

                          What I mean by diversionary tactics was how they wanted me to think that it was Jack who died and then they throw out at the end that it was Janet.

                          I find it somewhat insulting because they used and abused my sentiments as shippers to create their little twist. They are always yanking me around like yo-yo whenever it is convinent for them. So first they set up in Grace that Sam needs to move on. Then we get Chimera and the awful introduction of the worst love interest ever in . They include less than subtle hints of Sam's true feelings for Jack in her interview, which I think was just a way to build up the deception. In the end when we find out that all of her reactions weren't for Jack and none of it was really shippy. I can almost here the bully kid on from the Simpsons going "Ha! Ha!" and pointing at me because they got me.

                          And I think it was disrespectful to Janet's character because her death becomes the surprise twist at the end instead of a main focus as we are made to morn for Jack and not her. I just think she deserved better.

                          Lest you think I like nothing in these episodes, here are a few things I did appreciate.

                          1) I really liked SG13. They were some great characters and I would have been quite happy to see them again. And I loved how it demonstrated that the work of the SGC. SG1 may be intergalactic superheros who regularly save the planet but there are lots of other teams doing good work, exploring planets and fighting alien bad guys, even when SG1 are just hang around the base doing nothing.

                          2) The battle scene was very impressive.
                          The cinematography and effects were amazing to watch. It reminded me of another favorite fighting sequence in the show, at the end of Enemies with the team running and gunning against the Replicators. Since I found the majority of Heroes really boring, it was nice to have a good action sequence.

                          I'd also just like to throw out there a comparison between the scene in The Nox when Jack is shot and Jack getting shot here. Sam's reaction especially, which is almost identical.




                          3) The hug!


                          Who wouldn't like that hug?! Especially as I consider it the only genuine shippy moment in the entire show (considering the interview and crying jag was a red herring, and the reaction on the battlefield was so similar to a comparable moment pre-ship).

                          While Sam received comfort from Hammond and Teal'c, they came to her. She's the one who sought out Jack.

                          OK. Fire Away!

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                            Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                            Alright, I'm getting ready to dodge the rotten tomatoes that are about to be thrown at me, but I'm just going to say this anyway: I don't like Heroes. It is on my list of least favorite episodes, maybe not bottom 10 but definitely bottom 20 (of the first eight seasons because I put S9 & S10 an a whole other category of awful).
                            I'll just snip this at the top to save space. I actually see a lot of where you're coming from. Seeing that I knew the truth the first time through the episode I didn't feel as cheated by the deception since I saw it for what it was from the beginning, but I can definitely agree with your sentiment.

                            One thing I thought of recently in regards to SG1 vs SG13. With the exception of perhaps Teal'c, SG-1 is pretty removed from any personal connections outside of the SGC. Jack's divorced and his child is gone, Sam has her father but he's in a situation pretty similar to her own (he's out there taking the same risks), and Daniel's wife is dead. In contract we see SG13 who have civilian family members outside of the SGC. Presumably this was done on purpose to make the risks that SG13 was taking in the field and the resultant conflict in regards to the ambush more dramatic. Would this same set-up have worked and to the same effect if it had been SG-1 out in the field that were trapped in the ambush or would the tension have been completely different?

                            I didn't think about the effects this twist then had on Janet's death scene though. I found her death touching because, from the way I saw it, she was sacrificing herself. It may not have been the heroic scene like Bregman describes with the Vietnam reporter, but she refused to leave him behind and because of that she was killed. Now that you mention it though I think they could have done a better job fleshing that out, even if they provided some more flashbacks.

                            I also didn't catch the whole episode of clips vibe, but now that you mention it I see that as well. I think there's more drama than there generally is in those episode, but that's probably because I'm never into the political drama in the episodes to begin with (and it seems most of the clip episodes are political).

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                              I'm not throwing rotten tomatoes; I promise.

                              The only thing I have to say about Janet's death is the producers thought Season 7 was going to be the last season of the show and they thought what a great and emotional way to go out. And they chose Janet. I don't agree with their decision, but that's the entire reason they killed her character. And then, again, in Season 8, when they thought it was going to be their last season, they decided to kill Jacob, as a big emotional thing. And then, of course, they got two more seasons. Both those characters should have gotten to stay around for the entire course of the series.

                              In terms of the storyline, I still don't agree it needed to be Janet. Since when does the CMO of the base go off on a mission like this to try to save one person? ("Allegiance" was a bit different, in that there were numerous injuries, and what they thought was not a battle area.) That's a job for one of the "redshirts", while the CMO stays behind to be in charge of the injuries and treatments and so forth. It would have been like sending Hammond into battle with SG1; it's just not done (as far as I'm concerned).

                              I would only add that it was pretty insulting to not have any more mention of Cassie than Sam's rather insensitive (for her) comment that "she's a tough kid". Coming from Sam, I find that incredibly hard to accept, considering how she's still grieving over the death of her own mother when she was about 14. I would have thought Sam, of all people, would have had more compassion over Cassie than to brush her off with that comment. Plus, apparently the producers didn't think it important enough to even invite the actress who played Cassie to be in the episode. In an interview on GW earlier this year, the actress said she didn't even know Janet's character had died.

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                                Originally posted by Gumarx View Post
                                One thing I thought of recently in regards to SG1 vs SG13. With the exception of perhaps Teal'c, SG-1 is pretty removed from any personal connections outside of the SGC. Jack's divorced and his child is gone, Sam has her father but he's in a situation pretty similar to her own (he's out there taking the same risks), and Daniel's wife is dead. In contract we see SG13 who have civilian family members outside of the SGC. Presumably this was done on purpose to make the risks that SG13 was taking in the field and the resultant conflict in regards to the ambush more dramatic. Would this same set-up have worked and to the same effect if it had been SG-1 out in the field that were trapped in the ambush or would the tension have been completely different?
                                That's a very interesting point. Something like this comes up in Affinity where Jack points out to Sam that other people on the base do have families. I'm going to have to think on this some more.

                                Originally posted by hedwig View Post
                                I'm not throwing rotten tomatoes; I promise.

                                The only thing I have to say about Janet's death is the producers thought Season 7 was going to be the last season of the show and they thought what a great and emotional way to go out. And they chose Janet. I don't agree with their decision, but that's the entire reason they killed her character. And then, again, in Season 8, when they thought it was going to be their last season, they decided to kill Jacob, as a big emotional thing. And then, of course, they got two more seasons. Both those characters should have gotten to stay around for the entire course of the series.
                                I knew this and it really does annoy me that they always think that the best way to go out with a bang is to kill someone off (or a whole planet in the case of Season 6).

                                Then of course when the series truly ended it went in a fizzle, but I'll hold back on my disdainful comments about Unending for now.

                                In terms of the storyline, I still don't agree it needed to be Janet. Since when does the CMO of the base go off on a mission like this to try to save one person? ("Allegiance" was a bit different, in that there were numerous injuries, and what they thought was not a battle area.) That's a job for one of the "redshirts", while the CMO stays behind to be in charge of the injuries and treatments and so forth. It would have been like sending Hammond into battle with SG1; it's just not done (as far as I'm concerned).
                                It didn't bother me that Janet went out with the team, but it definitely did feel like a set up.

                                I would only add that it was pretty insulting to not have any more mention of Cassie than Sam's rather insensitive (for her) comment that "she's a tough kid". Coming from Sam, I find that incredibly hard to accept, considering how she's still grieving over the death of her own mother when she was about 14. I would have thought Sam, of all people, would have had more compassion over Cassie than to brush her off with that comment. Plus, apparently the producers didn't think it important enough to even invite the actress who played Cassie to be in the episode. In an interview on GW earlier this year, the actress said she didn't even know Janet's character had died.
                                I couldn't agree more. And you make a very good point about Sam's mother. I hadn't considered that angle before.

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