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    I much prefer BB as Cam Mitchell

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      Quote Originally Posted by hlndncr View Post
      It seems like the more I try and explain myself the more I am misunderstood. So I'm just going to stop now and go watch something shippy.

      I may have some comments on Heroes later; if I dare.
      HighlandDancer (because I can expand it here!) - so sorry if you felt like that. Having had friends in situations like yours, I totally get why you would feel the way you do. The things with which we have personal experience causes us the most amount of emotion. It was *never* supposed to be a beat down, just a disagreement.

      Please don't stop sharing :: hugs ::
      Absolutely!

      I mean, I guess I'm pretty set in my opinions, but I love hearing different opinions. This either serves to strengthen my convictions or to broaden or even alter them. It's what I'm here for after all.
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        I guess we're all waiting for the review of part 2 before we discuss Heroes (no pressure Sharon ), but I thought I'd share this completely shallow observation - my favorite lines of part one:

        BREGMAN: You know, I'm going to get you on camera sooner or later, even if all I get is a series of shots of you avoiding being got.

        Fire away. I hope shots of my ass serve you well.

        *shyly raises hand*

        Um . . . yes please?!


        Sorry, don't know who made the gif, but THANKS!

        Perhaps this will make it into the documentary!

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          Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
          I guess we're all waiting for the review of part 2 before we discuss Heroes (no pressure Sharon ), but I thought I'd share this completely shallow observation - my favorite lines of part one:

          BREGMAN: You know, I'm going to get you on camera sooner or later, even if all I get is a series of shots of you avoiding being got.

          Fire away. I hope shots of my ass serve you well.

          *shyly raises hand*

          Um . . . yes please?!


          Sorry, don't know who made the gif, but THANKS!

          Perhaps this will make it into the documentary!
          It's on my TODAY list--I promise!
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            I'm pretty sure that's Oma's gif
            pretty one isn't it

            I don't have much to add atm will try and watch both eps, but I do love Heroes
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              deeply offensive aspects of this episode are to women in general and to those of us who admire Sam’s character and feel that it damaged the integrity her character.
              I saw her as a role model for my girls until this episode.

              Daniel and Sarah part of the storyline was largely overshadowed by the Sam/Pete story and I think that was a shame.
              I do too. Too bad the explosion wasn't 'bigger'!

              giving the male lead (geeky Daniel or square-jawed Jack) anything less than a stunningly fabulous girlfriend
              Oh yes! Usually the gorgeous girlfriend is a few decades too young as well.

              AT and RDA who can sizzle up a screen with a single look
              I saw NO chemistry with DD and AT

              In the café scene he tries to convince her to call in sick and spend the day with him because he believes her work isn’t important and the world can wait for more deep space telemetry
              Wanting her to take the day off didn't bother me so much as his lack of respect for her professional life. It struck me that even later when he knew what she did and how dangerous it could be he seemed to think 'How's a little woman like you do that dangerous stuff? You must need a big strong man like me in your life.' Or he laughed it all off like it was nonsense (reaction to Dad)

              And at Evolution there seemed to be a comfort and contentment in their relationship. Yes, there was longing, but I didn’t feel a desperation from them to change the status quo.
              I blame the writers for the lack of consistency in their characters.

              As to their big romantic date, I just don’t get it.
              May be it was a way to isolate her - they didn't know a soul there. I thought it was so uncomfortable.

              an excellent advertisement for abstinence
              LOL! Go to bed with a prince and wake up with a toad.
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                Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                OK, see I told you I was going to be rambling.

                So to continue my rantings . . .

                Spoiler:
                The only thing I have to say about the background check is that I give DD credit for looking guilty as he asks for it. It suggests to me that maybe Pete did know he was probably stepping over the line, but of course he still crossed it.

                I think Sam’s reaction to Daniel’s comments about his dreams of Sarah and their relationship is interesting. He talks about how much more supportive Sarah is of him and his work in the dreams than in real life and Sam calls it a male fantasy. I think she’s projecting here. After her experience with Pete (and maybe even Jonas as well) she seems to have a complete lack of understanding of what constitutes a healthy relationship where the person you’re with wants you to succeed and cares about the things that are important to you. I think that is the kind of relationship she could (and in my world does) one day have with Jack. But she sees how Daniel destroyed his relationship with Sarah because of his obsession with his work and she concludes that the two must inevitably come into conflict.

                As for Jack, I’m not sure he really knows how to react to Sam’s new life. He tries to play it casual and act as just the friend. Telling her he’s happy for her. Later he brings up Pete and tries to be sympathetic. It’s like passing a car accident. He doesn’t really want to know, but he can’t look away. Maybe it’s that desire to do what he thinks will make her happy that leads him to hold off on laying into Pete after messing up their operation, and probably helping her get clearance to tell Pete something of the Strargate program. But I find the whole thing completely unrealistic and out of character. Although, I don’t think Pete would have stuck around if he hadn’t been told (or he would have done something else stupid and caused more problems; so maybe I can justify it as Jack just trying to head off further disaster).

                Of all Sam’s “boyfriends” this is definitely the one that should have died. And I can see Sam keeping him around because she feels guilty and/or doesn’t like to admit failure. For this reason I don’t believe Sam ever loved Pete. And my own experiences tell me that it is absolutely possible to get engaged to someone you do not love. And it is easy to get trapped by your choices. I think Sam is someone that tries too hard to meet expectations and that’s how the whole relationship gets away from her right at the beginning and then she really does just follow Pete’s lead after that.

                I think it shows just how well Jack knows her and how sensitive he is to her feelings and their positions that he always allowed her to lead in their relationship. Even when he demonstrated his openness at the end of Threads I think he still ultimately left it up to Sam. Whereas I think Pete really was always dragging her to places she really didn’t want the relationship to go. From beginning to end I saw nothing but a lot of discomfort in her relationship with Pete, which was a further indication that she never opened herself up to him.

                To me, she never acted like someone in love. She didn’t ever want to talk about him or be seen with him. Even when she was with him it always seemed more casual or even business like. It was almost like she considered her relationship with him a job she had to do. At the same time when she was around Jack we’ve seen her be flirty, touchy, and close in a way that obviously goes beyond friendship. Even when she was involved with Pete, she and Jack looked and acted more like a couple to me than she and Pete ever did.

                I think it is clear that I agree with everyone who has said that the whole Pete storyline was poorly thought out and badly executed. I’m not opposed to the idea of Sam having a relationship with someone other than Jack. I think it could have been an interesting background storyline. But I think it was misplaced. I could have seen it sometime in Season 5 when Sam and Jack’s relationship had cooled and there was a definite distance between them. (And I wouldn’t have minded them keeping Joe Faxon around because it would have been deliciously tantalizing to see a relationship like that come together and then later fall apart given what we know from the alternate 2010 timeline.) But it didn’t fit in Season 7, which is demonstrated by the fact that Pete is never mentioned again until Season 8 where it seems there relationship isn’t going that well since Sam doesn’t want to talk about it and she’s not fooled by Fifth’s projection of domestic bliss. In some ways it really was an unnecessary one off story thrown into the middle of this season.

                Especially since I agree with others who have said that Pete or any other relationship for Sam was not a necessary catalyst in ultimately bringing Jack and Sam together. In fact, in the end I believe it was really Jacob who did that (watch now as I smoothly transition into a discussion of Death Knell ) with his deathbed advice to actually follow her heart and be happy. I think Jacob’s line to Sam at the Alpha site really is the key. They never talk anymore. If Sam had really talked to her father about Pete, about her fears and desires, maybe he could have helped guide her to the answers sooner.

                But really, even if she wanted too she never got the chance because he left her shortly after her experience running from the super soldier. Thus beginning a series of losses for Sam that leaves her vulnerable, emotionally confused, and reeling from pain and loneliness. Her dad is essentially MIA in a distant part of the galaxy, Janet soon dies, and then Jack sacrifices himself to save the world and she has to leave him behind in frozen limbo (all that was missing is Daniel “dying” again). All of this I think is what ultimately throws Sam into Pete’s waiting arms. I mean the one thing she has to say for him in Affinity is that he “stuck around.”

                For my part, I consider Death Knell a Jack story (somewhat like Desperate Measures). Sam is off struggling for survival; both Pete and Jack are the furthest things from her mind. Jack is struggling with potentially losing the woman he loves and I think we see hints of that throughout the episode. When he finds her at the end I don’t attribute anything he does or doesn’t do as a reaction to her relationship with Pete. I think it is all about her. His relief at finding her and needing to hold her, and maybe a little concern that he needs her too much or that his feelings might be too obvious. I don’t see a soldier moment, if anything I see a call back to Metamorphosis. Teal’c is facing away (guarding a dead soldier FCOL) and giving them time and space to take the comfort from one another that he knows they both need. And I don’t think Sam would have cuddled up to anyone else (except maybe Daniel or Teal’c). And if it had been anyone else (except maybe Daniel) Jack wouldn’t have offered.

                Whew. I'm glad I got all that off my chest.


                Excellent post - this is virtually how I see it.
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                  Originally posted by Zoser View Post
                  I saw her as a role model for my girls until this episode.
                  I think that's what happend with a lot of people.


                  I do too. Too bad the explosion wasn't 'bigger'!
                  I shouldn't laugh, but ...


                  May be it was a way to isolate her - they didn't know a soul there. I thought it was so uncomfortable.
                  I've often wondered how he found out about this anniversary party he took her to. I have the feeling he "crashed" somebody else's event in order to show off to her. I didn't get the impression he knew anybody there in order to have been invited.

                  LOL! Go to bed with a prince and wake up with a toad.
                  I like to think of all this as being like that episode in "Dallas" years ago when Pam Ewing woke up from a bad dream where she thought Bobby had died, but when she wakes she finds him in their shower. For me, this whole storyline was just a bad dream Sam had.

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                    And in terms of attractiveness, I personally thought Orlin was the most attractive of all the guys, including Jack. *ducks*
                    Oh Evenstar that's just blasphemy!
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                      Thanks Hlndncr - five minutes of my life down the drain staring at Jack's backside.
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                        Originally posted by Zoser View Post
                        Thanks Hlndncr - five minutes of my life down the drain staring at Jack's backside.
                        And thus proving my point. That would make an excellent addition to any documentary.

                        Always happy to be of service.

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                          Perhaps this will make it into the documentary!
                          If Bregman or what's-his-name has any business sense at all, it will!

                          But this is not a thunk thread (as far as I know), so I will quickly say something on topic ... Damn, my brain is fried!

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                            I didn't see anything wrong with the date scene. Sure, it isn't my cup of tea, but Sam certainly seemed to enjoy it...

                            I'm pretty sure Jack and Sam did something fun on their first date...oh wait...they went *fishing* *coughcough*

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                              AT LAST!!!!

                              For the record, I did have this done yesterday, but when I logged on to post it, there was an error of some sort on the site and I couldn't pull it up.



                              Banner by Cagranosalis


                              I have to add one thing to the previous review. One of the most BRILLIANT points of writing in the entire series occurred in Heroes Part 1. Mid-episode we come upon SG-13, who have just gated through to an alien planet. It’s interesting to see another SG team in action, but even more awesome is the conversation that they have about Dixon and his four children. It’s hilarious, and true, and real, and I laugh every time I hear it.

                              Moving on.

                              The documentary crew continues trying to film in and around the activity in the ‘Gateroom, and Bregman is becoming more and more frustrated in his attempts to capture anything pertinent on tape. They all watch as Fraiser and SG-1 stride purposefully through the halls towards the ‘Gateroom, and then go to do some editing, during which Bregman complains that what they have on tape is “unbelievably boring”.

                              Juxtaposed against his tirade is the next shot, which is a harried and frantic battle scene. O’Neill, Teal’c, and Carter are fighting it out with the Jaffa alongside the other SG teams, while radio transmissions with the other people on the planet bring the attention back to the downed team member and Fraiser working to stabilize him for transport home.

                              Dixon makes an off-hand comment that the whole situation felt like a trap, and then takes off running to fight again. There are some great special effects, Sam takes off towards the enemy, and Jack is on her six. They hide behind some rocks. Jack sees a Jaffa in the bushes, and aims his body towards the Jaffa in order to shoot him when he’s caught by another staff blast and falls to the ground.

                              Cinematically, this is beautifully done. I like the slo-mo, and the echoed feeling of the scene. There is a true sense of urgency, and fear, and disbelief. Sam rushes over to the Colonel, and places her hand on his chest. She does this knowing that doing so puts her in danger, but it’s obvious that his well-being is first and foremost on her mind. (Insert appropriate sigh here.)

                              Cut scene to the SGC. Walter is showing Bregman around the ‘Gateroom. There is some cute banter between the two. It feels like filler to me—something banal and inane to fill the time until the ‘Gate can spin and rush in the second half of the episode.


                              It does (surprise!), and this is where the episode gets interesting.


                              Bregman and crew are rushed, again, out of the ‘Gateroom. He continues to film, however, taking the camera away from the military cameraman and holding it himself. We see medical personnel helping an injured person, and then we see the crew in an elevator, or some enclosed place, waiting until Carter turns the corner. She is dirty, and bedraggled, and crying, and orders the crew both out of her way, and to turn off the camera, before she disappears around another corner.

                              This scene is one of the most important scenes in the episode—the single non-military reporter lecturing the military about secrecy and freedom. It’s a fascinating topic—the program is, after all, secret. And this particular debate has waged for centuries. How much is too much to know? How much is enough? How much is too little? It’s also fascinating in light of current events—information that has been leaked in the past few days that has put a damper on diplomacy. Bregman is of the opinion that everything should be available to the press, whereas the military obviously believes the opposite. Is there a happy middle? I love his speech—even if I personally don’t agree with all of it (but I do agree with a lot of it). It’s one of the most honest monologues on the show—very heartfelt, and Saul does a fabulous job with it. I think it’s topical and current, and thought-provoking.


                              Bregman leaves, only to end up in the commissary. His crew rejoins him, and the guy in charge of babysitting him comes in to announce that O’Neill has been hit, and he’s not moving.

                              Hammond is at his desk when Woolsey enters his office to announce that he’s been ordered by Kinsey to review the command decisions Hammond has made. It’s obvious that he’s skeptical about the SGC in general. It’s also obvious that he’s already made up his mind.


                              Hammond goes to see Carter. She contacted Agent Barrett to check out Woolsey, only to find that Woolsey’s not all that clean, himself. Hammond asks her to speak at the memorial service. They share a bonding moment, which is pretty sweet.


                              Then begin the Woolsey questions. It’s kind of painful. I’m going to skim over that, because everyone knows what happens. And we all want to slap Woolsey, anyway, so we’re probably on the same page on that front. All I will say is that there is some funky camera work and you never know who is being questioned at any one time. I like it. It’s interesting to watch.


                              Bregman approaches Daniel in his lab, only to see the camera on his desk. They have a conversation about what he might have captured on film. We see a flashback where Daniel and Fraiser attend to Wells on 666, and then Bregman tells his story about the photographer who nearly gets killed and the lieutenant who saves him.

                              Hammond hands Woolsey his mission report instead of being questioned. Hammond lets Woolsey know that he has checked up on him, and they argue.


                              Hammond orders Bregman off the base, but Bregman refuses to go easily. Hammond tells Daniel that he has to turn over his tape, and it’s obvious that Bregman has appealed to higher voices than Hammond and is still on base.

                              They watch the tape, and Wells is screaming in pain. All of a sudden, Janet is hit with a staff blast, and we find out that she is the one who died.

                              Sam pokes her head through a door and enters Jack’s infirmary room. It’s obvious that she’s been crying. They talk about Cassie, about the new vests, and the memorial service. And then Sam tells him she’s glad he’s okay. We’ll talk about this scene later.


                              Daniel visits Wells in the infirmary, and then we see Teal’c enter Sam’s lab. She’s struggling with what to say at the memorial service. Teal’c offers her his ideas about what he would say were he to be given a chance. They exchange a sweet hug.

                              Bregman enters the infirmary isolation room. Daniel is sitting in a corner, and he refuses to take the tape back from Bregman. He wants Janet’s sacrifice to be shown—as a salute to Janet.

                              At the memorial service, Sam gives a simple homage to Janet, reading the names of the people that Janet saved. The speech becomes part of the documentary, and then morphs onto Hammond’s TV in his office. He comments to Bregman that the film is good, and a fitting tribute, and Bregman says that one thing would make it better—O’Neill’s cooperation.

                              The final scene is O’Neill sitting down to give the interview that he's been refusing to do all along.
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                                Continued:

                                Talking Points:


                                Politics:

                                This, more than any other episode, delves into the politics of the program in relation to real life issues. This episode was filmed after the happenings of September 11, 2001, and shows a very real similarity to the questions and concerns voiced by people around the country surrounding the events that followed. Bregman’s questioning of the handling of the war against the Goa’uld is too pointed to be purely coincidental. Without going too deeply into the separate viewpoints, I would be remiss if I didn’t dip a toe into that particular territory—the fight against the Goa’uld seen alongside the fight that was actually in progress at the time of filming. Since the Stargate program is happening (theoretically) alongside the “real” world, it would seem to be an obvious comparison to make. Carter’s statement that she looks around and wants to scream that “there’s so much more” to be worried about is, I believe, a reference to this. Who she wants to be screaming at is another story.

                                When Woolsey makes his completely unwelcome incursion into the base, things get even more dicey. A purely military person would probably look at Woolsey—someone who has never fought an enemy, someone who has never fought a day in his life—as an outsider and a Monday Morning Quarterback. It’s really easy to judge on the sidelines and after the fact. Decisions that seem obvious from behind data and desks aren’t as easy to see from the madness of a battleground. Woolsey is judging people without having any true knowledge of what they go through.

                                That he has been sent by Kinsey is indicative of the fact that things are changing, and that there have been many things happening behind the scenes that are angling for the same sorts of dictates that have made many military people currently fighting believe it’s more difficult to wage a winnable war. When every decision is second-guessed to this extent, it creates an environment where people will be too nervous to prosecute military action effectively when there is always the probability that some pencil pusher in Washington is going to judge your actions based on outcome rather than the actual circumstance.

                                Janet:

                                Why is it that episodes where they are going to kill a character off is when that character really shines? I love Janet in this episode (both halves). She is real. Honest. True. She comes across as a regular person, even more so than normal. Her casual flirtation with Bregman is kind of cute, and I adore her handling of him and of the injured soldier. Good stuff—definitely a great swan song.


                                Daniel:

                                This is one of my favorite Daniel episodes. This seems like a decisive episode for him. He is normally so at odds with the military—but he chooses to side with them in this instance. This is kind of the beginning of bad-ass Daniel that we see later on in the series. When push comes to shove, he aligns himself with his family. It shows a maturation, in some part, of his


                                Hammond:

                                Wow. Great Hammond episode. I love his strength, and his loyalty, and his love for his teams. He rocks this one.



                                Teal’c:

                                Great in this ep. He’s strong, and sweet when Sam’s struggling. Of course, he’s the one with the perfect thing for Sam to say.


                                Cassie:

                                Why isn’t she at the memorial service? Why is she just pawned off with a “she’ll survive”? I hated that about this episode. There should have been more about her.


                                Sam and Jack:

                                Two scenes together—and yet what great scenes. They are fighting—O’Neill gets hit, and Sam risks herself to run right out there and go to him. I believe that the way it was shot was indicative of the importance of who was running to whom. I don’t think they’d have gone all slo-mo if Teal’c had been running to Jack.

                                The scene in the infirmary room is just as important. First of all, she can’t bring herself to say what she really wants to say—maybe it’s too close for them to talk about. It’s too real. But their music plays, and we know that the understanding is there between them. The hug is one of those that’s talked about incessantly. It’s one of the famous “C’mere” hugs, and he dips his head down into her neck. Now—I have given a lot of comfort hugs in my life, but I’ve never done that. I think that this is one of those times when the little things show the true importance of the big thing. This is not an “I’m glad you’re fine” hug. It’s an “I can’t believe I came so close to losing you—and there’s so much that I would have regretted not saying” hug. And Jack didn’t make her say those things, preserving their relationship—allowing them to kid themselves that it actually is an “I’m glad you’re fine” hug. It’s yet another advance and retreat moment in their lives. It’s beautifully maddening.


                                Hmmmmm. . .

                                Although this episode is one of my favorites in general, there are some things that I don’t like about it. First of all—it feels disjointed. In listening to the commentary, I know that AT thought that her emotions were all out of whack, but that didn’t bother me. Grief affects people in different ways. I cried the entire day leading up to having to deal with final arrangements for my baby that had been born still, and yet at the funeral home, I got the giggles. It was humiliating, and I felt like an idiot, but I couldn’t stop laughing. So—I get that grief and pain can hit with different strengths at different times. So, she's fine in one scene and crying heavily in others--that's realistic, not uneven.

                                The thing that really bothered me was the last part with Hammond and Bregman. Was Bregman actually kicked off base? Then why was he still there? It seems nebulous, at times. And if Janet was the one necessary to stabilize Wells, how did he get back to the SGC just fine after she died? We never find out how they got out of the situation, and that seemed too easy to me.

                                There is a distinct lack of humor. Even those things that are funny (Airman during editing: "I could listen to Major Carter's head talk for hours.") aren't laugh-funny. This one is serious and straight.

                                I liked how they revealed Janet's death. Seeing it on the faces of those watching makes it a little more human and real. Also, on the commentary, they spoke of how those guys watching didn't know. That tape was the news for them during shooting, too. Great use of real surprise to mirror on-screen shock.

                                Again—I hate how Cassie is disregarded in this episode. It’s practically criminal.

                                And it’s sweet but a little cliché how Wells names his daughter after Janet.

                                And finally—I found it interesting that the planet where all this started was P3X-666. As if the writers were wanting to broadcast that this story arc was not going to go well.
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