Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

Just a quick note, that unfortunately I haven't had the time to rewatch the last 3 episodes and I don't think I'll contribute much to Changeling either but at some point in future I'll try to go back to the eps I missed. I hope. Meanwhile, there's really nothing I can say, Cags and Rachel covered everything that I remember and would have said (right down to Monty Python song, which I love) anyway. Suffice to say, I also really like Forsaken and consider it to be one of the most team-y episodes of the series.

For me the interesting line though is when Corso asks her if she's with someone, Sam deflects and says that she doesn't want to talk about it indicating that there is someone. I always think this line gives away that for Sam her heart is with Jack and that is blocking her from considering other romantic prospects. She's happy to indulge in a bit of flirting; flattered by Corso's evident admiration of her but she's not really interested because her romantic focus is elsewhere.

That's pretty much it for me, the perfect summary of the shippy aspect of the episode and S/J relationship at this point in time. Nothing to add.

[RamonaThePest]

Hi everyone,

I haven't been here in a while and just popped in to say that I just read the latest SG1 Fandemonium novels. The first one "Power Behind the Throne" was okay. Great premise but could have gone much farther IMHO. The second book is what motivated me to log on and let you all know that "Four Dragons" has two shippy bits ALTHOUGH THEY STAY WITHIN CANON. But it's to be expected considering the story takes place in Season 6. I was pleasantly surprised as I know the authors run everything by MGM and had been criticized in the very first book for what little shippiness was there.

Back to "Four Dragons", each tidbit is no more than a paragraph long so it's not a lot but since I enjoy all of Stargate (I just LUV the ship), I really enjoyed the book.

Hey, Petra,

I really like your banner. Grier is one of my favorite (interesting) characters on SGU and I wish they would develop him more.

[Petra]

The second book is what motivated me to log on and let you all know that "Four Dragons" has two shippy bits ALTHOUGH THEY STAY WITHIN CANON. But it's to be expected considering the story takes place in Season 6. I was pleasantly surprised as I know the authors run everything by MGM and had been criticized in the very first book for what little shippiness was there.

Back to "Four Dragons", each tidbit is no more than a paragraph long so it's not a lot but since I enjoy all of Stargate (I just LUV the ship), I really enjoyed the book.

Welcome back Ramona! Even if we never met before, LOL *waves*

It's great to hear such good news about "Four Dragons". Diana, book's author, devoted S/J shipper and a member of this forum all rolled into one (she was even participating in our rewatch back in season 1) was pretty excited that the bits were accepted. Now I can't wait to read it! It's the first SG-1 book I decided to buy in a very long time. Cool

re: bolded. Do you mean Sabine Bauer and her first Fandy novel? I know she's a shipper too, and I wondered about her books..

Hey, Petra,

I really like your banner. Grier is one of my favorite (interesting) characters on SGU and I wish they would develop him more.

Thank you But all the credit for my sig should go to Josiane, who made it, and also to Oma and evilgrin who made 2 more in the same theme which will be shown as soon as I get the rotating sig up and running

OT for Greer and SGU

Spoiler:

Greer's my favourite SGU character too and I - and his fellow fans - keep our fingers crossed for more development and screentime for him in season 2. He's so fascinating, he deserves it! Have you checked out his Discussion and Appreciation Thread? You can also vote for him in the Hottest SGU Guy poll He's got just one vote so far

[EvenstarSRV]

Going back to Sam’s comment about trusting people and hoping they don’t make you regret it. What an interesting thing for her to say. Here she’s clearly demonstrating that she has no fear of situations that may result in a negative experience... and yet... and yet... she caan't apply the samee theory to her own emotions. Here she is NOT having a relationship with Jack and a large part of the reason she’s not is because there’s a fear there of destroying what they already have if it didn’t work out. Up there, I enthused about how wonderful it is to see their friendship and how comfortable they are with each other, but, actually, it’s because they are so comfortable with each other that I think they struggle to put that on the line for something more. The regulations... yeah, great excuse, nice barrier to hide behind, but it not why they won’t take a risk on being together; there’s a lot more personal reasons than that.

Nice review. Forsaken is not an episode I'm inclined to rewatch often, but it was a fun ep and had a very good sense of team.

In regards to Sam's trust issues, IMO I think it's more what kind of trust Sam is fearful of rather than just trust in general. She's always been very willing to give people the benefit of doubt and trust in their good intentions in most matters, like trusting Teal'c to watch her back despite just defecting from his God, or trusting Linnea's scientific interest despite meeting her in a prison. More often than not her trust has paid off and most of them haven't made her regret offering it.

However, when it comes to more personal matters Sam's usually been more skittish about opening up to someone. I also think that she got burned badly by Jonus and has been very reluctant to get that close to someone again, he made her regret falling in love with him. So in regards to Jack, I think Sam has no problem trusting him as a CO, teammate, and friend, but she is rather hesitant/afraid of completely trusting him with her heart. It wasn't until her personal revelations in Grace, that the rewards of that kind of trust are worth the risk of regretting it, that she was ready for a relationship with anyone, much less with Jack IMHO.

[Nynaeve506]

I'm going to try to jump in a little because I read about Sam's issues with trust...

I grew up an officer's daughter (my father didn't retire until I was well into college) - and I have to imagine that Sam moved very often, very quickly (I moved almost like clockwork every 3 years). One of the reasons I was drawn to SG-1 was her character - they wrote her surprisingly accurate.

When you move as often as she no doubt did, you learn to stop trusting people, loving people, because you know inevitably you have to leave them. In fact, most military kids do it without thinking. There's a great book called "Third Culture Kids" that actually pegs a lot of Sam's character (and any military kid you might know LOL). Fear of commitment. Difficulty trusting. Struggles with identity. They tend to become self-destructive in on way or another to cope with the losses - bad relationships, trying to fit molds (becoming strict adherents to a system, trying to force themselves into a "certain way"), workaholics, alcoholics, depressed, etc.

Now add to Sam's resume Jolinar, watching people die, extreme stressful situations, and an attractive commanding officer...

It's really quite phenomenal she ended up as halfway normal as she was and not in the nut house LOL.

Being a military kid is different from actually *being* military (I didn't have a choice, my father did). I don't know what it's like to *be* an officer. I only know what it's like to be the AF brat.

[Rachel500]

I'm going to try to jump in a little because I read about Sam's issues with trust...

I grew up an officer's daughter (my father didn't retire until I was well into college) - and I have to imagine that Sam moved very often, very quickly (I moved almost like clockwork every 3 years). One of the reasons I was drawn to SG-1 was her character - they wrote her surprisingly accurate.

When you move as often as she no doubt did, you learn to stop trusting people, loving people, because you know inevitably you have to leave them. In fact, most military kids do it without thinking. There's a great book called "Third Culture Kids" that actually pegs a lot of Sam's character (and any military kid you might know LOL). Fear of commitment. Difficulty trusting. Struggles with identity. They tend to become self-destructive in on way or another to cope with the losses - bad relationships, trying to fit molds (becoming strict adherents to a system, trying to force themselves into a "certain way"), workaholics, alcoholics, depressed, etc.

Now add to Sam's resume Jolinar, watching people die, extreme stressful situations, and an attractive commanding officer...

It's really quite phenomenal she ended up as halfway normal as she was and not in the nut house LOL.

Being a military kid is different from actually *being* military (I didn't have a choice, my father did). I don't know what it's like to *be* an officer. I only know what it's like to be the AF brat.

You know that's a really interesting perspective because normally the trust issue tends to be put down to Sam's loss of her mother and her past relationship issues with Jonas (by myself included) but we don't really consider enough that her formative lifestyle - chopping and changing schools, moving around a lot - might have had an effect there too. And I sympathise - I was not an military brat but we moved every couple of years as my Dad sought better positions and promotions so I was very used to the having to change school/make new friends thing, and you're right; it's constant loss and change that is wearing on a person.

Anyway, my rambling is really meant to say; thank you for sharing.

[Cagranosalis]

I think The Changeling was supposed to be today/yesterday. Not sure what happened but if anyone wants to kick off discussions about it, feel free to do so. I would but I am too drunk on chea wine tired to come up with anything coherent tonight.

Banner by Eve

[hlndncr]

Here is what I have to say about Forsaken:

Stargazing with Carter

And I have to say, it's all your fault Cags. Reading your review got my plot bunnies all in a dither.

As for The Changeling I've always liked this episode. I thought the script was clever (thumbs up to CJ) and I enjoy seeing my favorite characters in a different situation where they are not really the same people, and yet are still so familiar. For example, I love the way "Bray" calls "Chief O'Neill" a sorry excuse for a human being; an obvious play on the way Bra'tac is always calling Jack "human" in a slightly derogatory, yet fondly indulgent tone.

The transitions between reallities are really well done and interesting. And I think the acting is excellent. Everyone changes their mannerisms in at least a subtle way to demonstrate they aren't playing the same characters, with the most obvious change being CJ using contractions. Haha!

Random thoughts:

Why would Teal'c dream that he's a firefighter in Canada?

Love the line: "I would prefer not to consume bovine lactose at any temperature." And Sam zings him when she tells Janet to prescribe him some warm milk.

Sam and Jack:

OK, I know this is all in Teal'c's mind, but don't you find it interesting that even in Teal'c's mind Sam and Jack are totally in total sync? For example, when he's sitting in the firehouse at breakfast, Sam is discussing the kidney transplant with him and Jack comes from across the room and just picks up the conversation like he was there the whole time.

And when Teal'c is in the infirmary and he tells Jack and Janet that his dream felt so real Jack says: "Oh, I love it when that happens." Yeah, Teal'c knows who Jack is dreaming about. Of course he'd love it when those dreams feel real.

[Akamaimom]

Here is what I have to say about Forsaken:

Stargazing with Carter

And I have to say, it's all your fault Cags. Reading your review got my plot bunnies all in a dither.

As for The Changeling I've always liked this episode. I thought the script was clever (thumbs up to CJ) and I enjoy seeing my favorite characters in a different situation where they are not really the same people, and yet are still so familiar. For example, I love the way "Bray" calls "Chief O'Neill" a sorry excuse for a human being; an obvious play on the way Bra'tac is always calling Jack "human" in a slightly derogatory, yet fondly indulgent tone.

The transitions between reallities are really well done and interesting. And I think the acting is excellent. Everyone changes their mannerisms in at least a subtle way to demonstrate they aren't playing the same characters, with the most obvious change being CJ using contractions. Haha!

Random thoughts:

Why would Teal'c dream that he's a firefighter in Canada?

Love the line: "I would prefer not to consume bovine lactose at any temperature." And Sam zings him when she tells Janet to prescribe him some warm milk.

Sam and Jack:

OK, I know this is all in Teal'c's mind, but don't you find it interesting that even in Teal'c's mind Sam and Jack are totally in total sync? For example, when he's sitting in the firehouse at breakfast, Sam is discussing the kidney transplant with him and Jack comes from across the room and just picks up the conversation like he was there the whole time.

And when Teal'c is in the infirmary and he tells Jack and Janet that his dream felt so real Jack says: "Oh, I love it when that happens." Yeah, Teal'c knows who Jack is dreaming about. Of course he'd love it when those dreams feel real.

I agree with the Sam/Jack portions of this (and the rest, too.) and would only add that it's interesting that even in this environment, there would be restrictions on S/J's relationship--fire departments (at least, the ones that I know) having some regulations about diddling with each other. So, even here, it might be that Teal'c was sensing their pent up attraction, and transposing that into a different mien.

And your fic was sweet! It's been read and reviewed!

[Rachel500]

Changeling

Generally

I love this episode and kudos to CJ for writing it - poor guy; Teal'c only gets an outstanding storyline when CJ steps in to write it himself. Anyways...I love the Teal'c/Daniel friendship in this, the Teal'c/Bra'tac dimension, the world Teal'c builds for himself in the fireman dream including his lost love Sho'nac. The way the whole thing is a commentary for how he views his life (how he fears he'll meet Apophis in the afterlife) and team-mates (Jonas as Probie, Jack as Chief but Sam also as a leader, Bra'tac as his step-father, Daniel as the person he talks to who will understand him...)

And obviously, the tretonin and Teal'c losing Junior has all kinds of impact for stories later on as this effectively frees the Jaffa from the Goa'uld.

Sam and Jack

There really isn't much of anything - they barely get screen time together. But there is a symmetry in that they work together in synch in the fireman verse just as well as in the real world.

[iiradned]

Changeling

Sam and Jack

There really isn't much of anything - they barely get screen time together. But there is a symmetry in that they work together in synch in the fireman verse just as well as in the real world.

Well that's because you know.

It helps to solidy Teal'c's position as first shipper

[Petra]

I know I should give you guys more time to discuss The Changeling first, but I’m going away for the weekend and if I don’t post now, you’d have to wait till Monday or Tuesday. So, here goes:

Banner by Cags

Summary: Prometheus is forced to land on an alien world, where the local Stargate is the team's only chance of returning home -- though the local population believe the gate to be a myth.
*taken from GW*

Favourite line: Jack: Carter? You promised me it would work.

Favourite scene: Tagrean tour on Prometheus

Generally:

Memento is one of my favourite season 6 episodes, although it wasn’t always the case. It’s the kind of ep which grows on you with time and multiply rewatching. It’s a classic “team gets in trouble-gets out of trouble-goes home” stand alone ep with a very simple plot full of contrivances, which is why I wasn’t impressed the first time I saw it. I mean, Tagrea’s inhabitants just happen to speak English, just happen to be on the technological level allowing them to pose a threat to Prometheus, T & Jonas just happen to run into one guy on the whole planet who’s interested in Stargate, who happens to have all the needed pieces of puzzle necessary to find the Gate, the Gate happens to be buried very shallowly etc. I’s a bit much to swallow. So why do I love it? Because in terms of characterization, team interactions and charm it’s made of win.

Firstly, I adore O’Neill-Ronson dynamics. Ever since Makepeace was arrested in season 3 up till Ronson’s introduction Jack didn’t have any fellow SGC officer who’d be his equal and with whom he could butt heads (and after Ronson the only one I can of to have that kind of relationship with Jack was Col Dixon) and argue. It’s clear that they are both alpha males, each one is looking out for his team and trying to be the one in command but it’s also clear that they like, trust and respect each other. Besides it’s nice to have someone else be distrustful and antagonistic towards aliens, and have Jack be the diplomat and the calm, level-headed one.

The Ashwen-Kalfas dynamics is a bit too clear cut for my taste, especially since I agree with many of Kalfas’ arguments, despite his obvious set up as the bad guy. IMO were Earthlings in his shoes they would behave exactly the same. So it’s a shame that towards the end he was turned into OTT, maniacal, power-hungry cliche. He had a lot of potential.

I tend to think that the ep was made only because TPTB wanted their own version of the movie scene featuring digging up Stargate in the desert, but darn if I can blame them. It’s a beautiful scene and tbh, I prefer this one to the original one.

As some of you know, I hate Earth ships in Stargate; hate them with passion. But I do have a soft spot for Prommy and the episodes like Prometheus, Unnatural Selection and Memento are the reason why. Memento is the perfect example how to use a ship in an episode and still have that ep be about Stargate and have the big circle be the hero that saves the day. Shame TPTB forgot how to do it later on.

And finally, I love Memento because of the team. It’s such an incredibly teamy episode, each member has something to do and they are all absolutely wonderful. Teal’c gets some lines and gets to look smug, amused, to smile and even crack jokes at times. Jonas is a joy to watch. He’s totally believable as a Naquadria specialist and as archeologist and what’s interesting, he not only doesn’t get involved in the diplomatic issues like Daniel would, but doesn’t even seem interested in it. And it’s his ideas, again, that save everyone.

S/J implications:

Despite all of the above S/J interactions are my favourite part of the episode. I’m afraid I’ll be gushing here a little but Memento has S/J at their friendliest, most flirty, most in synch with each other best. It’s like they are one organism, they read each other perfectly, they switch roles seamlessly, like during the Tagreans’ tour on Prometheus when Jack’s the one leading and answering questions until they turn scientific – then Sam takes the lead. They are incredibly effective as a diplomatic team. Sam’s still the one who’s more suave, who comes up with appropriate things to say to diffuse tension and calm everyone down, but Jack makes visible effort to be polite, reasonable and friendly. And he shows himself to be very astute in political matters.

As a sidenote, one of the reasons I wasn’t thrilled with Daniel’s comeback in season 7 was that it erased all of Jack’s hard-earned diplomatic skills, which was a crying shame. I mean here we have Jack volunteering to talk things out with an alien race, and in a few episodes he’ll be back to being the obtuse, rude, distrustful soldier. Where did all this character development go?

Anyway, back to S/J. One of my favourite scenes is when they inform Ronson about having invited Tagrean delegation to a dinner (just look like Sam laughs at Jack’s “library pass” comment). During Ronson’s tirade they look like a couple of school kids being scolded by the principal. And then Jack can’t help but crack a bad joke and Sam can’t help but smile at it. And at the very end, during Ashwen’s speech, Sam is so checking out Jack’s six. I couldn’t find the right screencap, but it’s there. Fortunately, our great banner shows the smile they share when they are invited to the state dinner. It’s so cute and adorable and you can hear them thinking: “State dinner…sweet”

So to sum it up, Sam and Jack are in a very good place right now. They are close friends, unafraid to flirt and show each other their affection, and things seem to be looking up.

[hlndncr]

so [/I]checking out Jack’s six. I couldn’t find the right screencap, but it’s there.

You mean this? (There was definitely some extended six watching going on. )

[josiane]

As some of you know, I hate Earth ships in Stargate; hate them with passion. But I do have a soft spot for Prommy and the episodes like Prometheus, Unnatural Selection and Memento are the reason why. Memento is the perfect example how to use a ship in an episode and still have that ep be about Stargate and have the big circle be the hero that saves the day. Shame TPTB forgot how to do it later on.

I agree with you - I've always felt as time went on the ships became too dominant, and overshadowed the gate in many ways, which is a real shame IMO. It's a tricky one, because the desire to have our own shiny spaceships is entirely realistic, and the drive to become spacefaring off our own bat is generally well handled and developed throughout the course of the show. I guess it's part of my general preferring SG1 when we're the underdogs in the universe thing - once we defeat the Goa'uld and the Replicators and basically start owning the galaxy (pesky Ori aside) I just think it's a lot less narratively satisfying Or I guess, it's like it used to be that the Tauri are fighting a plucky insurgency, as opposed to defending our territory, and it's a lot less fun

S/J implications:

Despite all of the above S/J interactions are my favourite part of the episode. I’m afraid I’ll be gushing here a little but Memento has S/J at their friendliest, most flirty, most in synch with each other best. It’s like they are one organism, they read each other perfectly, they switch roles seamlessly, like during the Tagreans’ tour on Prometheus when Jack’s the one leading and answering questions until they turn scientific – then Sam takes the lead. They are incredibly effective as a diplomatic team. Sam’s still the one who’s more suave, who comes up with appropriate things to say to diffuse tension and calm everyone down, but Jack makes visible effort to be polite, reasonable and friendly. And he shows himself to be very astute in political matters.

As a sidenote, one of the reasons I wasn’t thrilled with Daniel’s comeback in season 7 was that it erased all of Jack’s hard-earned diplomatic skills, which was a crying shame. I mean here we have Jack volunteering to talk things out with an alien race, and in a few episodes he’ll be back to being the obtuse, rude, distrustful soldier. Where did all this character development go?

Anyway, back to S/J. One of my favourite scenes is when they inform Ronson about having invited Tagrean delegation to a dinner (just look like Sam laughs at Jack’s “library pass” comment). During Ronson’s tirade they look like a couple of school kids being scolded by the principal. And then Jack can’t help but crack a bad joke and Sam can’t help but smile at it. And at the very end, during Ashwen’s speech, Sam is so checking out Jack’s six. I couldn’t find the right screencap, but it’s there. Fortunately, our great banner shows the smile they share when they are invited to the state dinner. It’s so cute and adorable and you can hear them thinking: “State dinner…sweet”

So to sum it up, Sam and Jack are in a very good place right now. They are close friends, unafraid to flirt and show each other their affection, and things seem to be looking up.

Love all this - I love S/J in season 6 and this is basically the apogee of it. It's awesome to see them so comfortable with one another

[Petra]

You mean this? (There was definitely some extended six watching going on. )

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...620_1185-1.jpg

Yep, that's the one! Thanks!

Love all this - I love S/J in season 6 and this is basically the apogee of it. It's awesome to see them so comfortable with one another

Exactly! *nods vigorously*