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    Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
    Yep. I think you've pinpointed the crux of our differences.

    See I agree with the bolded. But. (You knew it was coming ) For me, from Entity onwards Sam becomes less and less certain that Jack loves her romantically; that maybe he only loves her as a friend (this is clearly highlighted in the Grace conversations in her conversation with Hallucination!Jack). And I think Jack himself while suspecting every so often that Sam's feelings for him were still there occasionally felt and thought that perhaps she had moved on.

    Which is why the Sight Unseen fishing invite for me is so screwed up because I see it as Jack consciously inviting her as a friend not to mess with her head but sincerely and to ensure she doesn't feel left out if he's invited others such as Teal'c, but leaving it to the last minute because it's safer that way (and yet, subconsciously still inviting her because its a hint of more which he deep, deep down hopes she picks up on and says yes to because that would mean she loves him); and Sam consciously wondering what the hell he means by it; if he's truly inviting her as a friend then why not when she's available and if it's more (and she deep down she hopes it is a sign that he loves her still), again why invite her when she's not available - and maybe he doesn't really want her to go fishing with him at all not even as a friend? Hence the frustration she shows. I don't think Jack does it to be deliberately mean to her and like I said before I think the fact that she shows her frustration here means he doesn't invite her again so to avoid hurting her.

    Thanks for the debate. I've enjoyed it.

    EDIT: hlndncr - haven't seen Toomi for a while - sorry!
    I can see the invite in The Curse as being just friendly because he makes it in the briefing room and in front of Teal'c. But then this was also in the middle of season 4 and I think they had a much more relaxed and playful relationship and that time. But in Sight Unseen, I just can't see Jack making that invite, the way he did just because they are friends and just because he already invited Teal'c. I realize that I've been reading the ship threads for a long time; so I have been influenced. But Jack's invite in Sight Unseen just sounds so suggestive to me. I'm sure he had no expectation that she would accept, but he just couldn't help letting it come out that he still wants to "fish" with Sam. And I think he lets some of his frustration and regrets spill out after her refusal when he says, "There's always something." At that point I think Sam hears some blame for having more important things to do like, I don't know, save the world, and he knows it. So I guess to a certain extent (and for completely different reasons) I do agree somewhat with Evenstar that Jack's invite, at least in this case, is a little insensitive and somewhat self-indulgent.

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      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
      Yep. I think you've pinpointed the crux of our differences.

      See I agree with the bolded. But. (You knew it was coming ) For me, from Entity onwards Sam becomes less and less certain that Jack loves her romantically; that maybe he only loves her as a friend (this is clearly highlighted in the Grace conversations in her conversation with Hallucination!Jack). And I think Jack himself while suspecting every so often that Sam's feelings for him were still there occasionally felt and thought that perhaps she had moved on.

      Which is why the Sight Unseen fishing invite for me is so screwed up because I see it as Jack consciously inviting her as a friend not to mess with her head but sincerely and to ensure she doesn't feel left out if he's invited others such as Teal'c, but leaving it to the last minute because it's safer that way (and yet, subconsciously still inviting her because its a hint of more which he deep, deep down hopes she picks up on and says yes to because that would mean she loves him); and Sam consciously wondering what the hell he means by it; if he's truly inviting her as a friend then why not when she's available and if it's more (and she deep down she hopes it is a sign that he loves her still), again why invite her when she's not available - and maybe he doesn't really want her to go fishing with him at all not even as a friend? Hence the frustration she shows. I don't think Jack does it to be deliberately mean to her and like I said before I think the fact that she shows her frustration here means he doesn't invite her again so to avoid hurting her.
      And I just can't see these two characters planning head-games with each other like that. One thing I've always appreciated about the Sam/Jack ship, at least my take on it, is that the reasons for keeping them apart as a couple were relatively mundane compared to what I've seen on other shows. So all the emotional angst of 'does he/she love me or love me not' just doesn't make sense with how I see the characters.

      Thanks for the debate. I've enjoyed it.
      Me too.

      Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
      I can see the invite in The Curse as being just friendly because he makes it in the briefing room and in front of Teal'c. But then this was also in the middle of season 4 and I think they had a much more relaxed and playful relationship and that time. But in Sight Unseen, I just can't see Jack making that invite, the way he did just because they are friends and just because he already invited Teal'c. I realize that I've been reading the ship threads for a long time; so I have been influenced. But Jack's invite in Sight Unseen just sounds so suggestive to me. I'm sure he had no expectation that she would accept, but he just couldn't help letting it come out that he still wants to "fish" with Sam. And I think he lets some of his frustration and regrets spill out after her refusal when he says, "There's always something." At that point I think Sam hears some blame for having more important things to do like, I don't know, save the world, and he knows it. So I guess to a certain extent (and for completely different reasons) I do agree somewhat with Evenstar that Jack's invite, at least in this case, is a little insensitive and somewhat self-indulgent.
      Yeah, that's another aspect that kinda bugs me. Now I admit I tend to side more with Sam since she is my favorite character, but I feel that Jack should realize that Sam's job is such that it doesn't just end when the mission debriefing is over. She couldn't have had that naquadah reactor for him to use in Scorched Earth if she hadn't spent months working on it after Learning Curve. So when Jack says 'it's always something' I always kinda want Sam to reply 'yeah, just the fate of the world, future of mankind, nothing important.'

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        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
        I wasn't really thinking in terms of promotion, but to me Jack not following AF rules as strictly with Daniel and Teal'c compared to Sam is treating them with favoritism, especially if he doesn't treat all civilians with the same leeway (which given the way he acted towards Rothman or Felger, he didn't). I know this is where dramatic license comes into on the show, it just bugs me when it perpetuates this idea that civilians don't have to follow any of the military's rules, they may not be members of the military but they're still employees of the military. They can't be court martialed for breaking their rules but they'd be most likely penalized or fired instead.
        I don't mind it so much and I think it's because the military needs Daniel and Teal'c a hell of a lot more than they need the military. Daniel is a subject expert, best in his field for this particular project... as we've already seen, he's not that easily replaceable. The military *needs* him and it's a good thing Daniel doesn't have such a large ego to expose that.

        Same thing with Teal'c and he's more important than Daniel. He is the link to the Jaffa and the alliance there. I just don't see the military treating either of these two the same as they would any other civilians.

        BTW, I'm new here. Love Sam and Jack. Woo!

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          EvenstarSRV said
          Now I admit I tend to side more with Sam since she is my favorite character, but I feel that Jack should realize that Sam's job is such that it doesn't just end when the mission debriefing is over. She couldn't have had that naquadah reactor for him to use in Scorched Earth if she hadn't spent months working on it after Learning Curve. So when Jack says 'it's always something' I always kinda want Sam to reply 'yeah, just the fate of the world, future of mankind, nothing important.'
          First, I think it would be totally out of character for Sam to say something like that, because it implies that what Jack does is less important than what she does (because, by the standards posed, his job does apparently end at the debriefing).

          Second, stepping away from a job, no matter how important, helps restore perspective. Being rested, relaxed and unstressed increases productivity.

          Third, no one is irreplaceable, not even Sam.* She doesn't always have to be the one working on the project.

          All that said, I always thought his "it's always something" was more a philosophical comment than a dig at Sam.

          Seaboe
          *except, of course, to Jack.
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            Originally posted by Schmacky View Post
            I don't mind it so much and I think it's because the military needs Daniel and Teal'c a hell of a lot more than they need the military. Daniel is a subject expert, best in his field for this particular project... as we've already seen, he's not that easily replaceable. The military *needs* him and it's a good thing Daniel doesn't have such a large ego to expose that.

            Same thing with Teal'c and he's more important than Daniel. He is the link to the Jaffa and the alliance there. I just don't see the military treating either of these two the same as they would any other civilians.
            Well, I think it's worth pointing out that neither Daniel or Teal'c would be allowed on SG-1 or even through the gate without the military's permission. So I can't really agree that the military needs them more than they need the military, I believe they both equally rely on each other to have the best chance of completing their mission.

            And I do feel that other civilians, many of whom are likely experts in their own respective fields, would see it as favoritism if Daniel and Teal'c were not subject to the same rules that they are even though they all have the same job as civilian contractors/employees of the Air Force. It'd be the same to me if Hammond treated Sam and Jack differently than the other military officers just because they were on SG-1. It's not about need or expertise IMHO, but about fairness and equal treatment under the rules.

            BTW, I'm new here. Love Sam and Jack. Woo!
            Welcome, always nice to 'see' new faces.

            Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
            First, I think it would be totally out of character for Sam to say something like that, because it implies that what Jack does is less important than what she does (because, by the standards posed, his job does apparently end at the debriefing).
            I meant that reply to be mainly done in jest, I don't think Sam would really say that either. Though to be fair, on the show we did see Sam working on projects before/after missions more often than we saw Jack working on something. So I don't think that Jack's job is less important, but that Sam's job most likely requires more hours to be put in between missions and during their downtime than his. Because even with all the time Sam may have put into her projects like the reactor, it almost always came down to Jack being able to execute her plan to save the day.

            Second, stepping away from a job, no matter how important, helps restore perspective. Being rested, relaxed and unstressed increases productivity.
            I agree with that as well. I just believe that Sam already has ways of stepping away from the job (time with Cassie and Janet, working on her bike), and that she doesn't necessarily need to go fishing with Jack to get that relaxation.

            Third, no one is irreplaceable, not even Sam.* She doesn't always have to be the one working on the project.

            All that said, I always thought his "it's always something" was more a philosophical comment than a dig at Sam.
            I agree here as well, and in this episode's case I think Sam wanted to work on the device because she was genuinely excited to work on it not because she thought it was vital to Earth's survival. I personally also think Sam uses projects like that as a way to gain perspective and relax in a way, to get to indulge in the research she loves without a ticking clock in the background or the fate of innocent lives at stake.
            Last edited by EvenstarSRV; August 27, 2010, 07:57 PM.

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              Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
              And I just can't see these two characters planning head-games with each other like that. One thing I've always appreciated about the Sam/Jack ship, at least my take on it, is that the reasons for keeping them apart as a couple were relatively mundane compared to what I've seen on other shows. So all the emotional angst of 'does he/she love me or love me not' just doesn't make sense with how I see the characters.
              Ah but there's a whole shipper section which is just devoted to the ANGST!!!

              Like you I just don't see Sam and Jack as characters playing head-games deliberately or planning to play head-games either.

              People set out with good intentions. For me, Jack decides to protect Sam (and the rest of his team) better by stepping back from the very obvious flirting and admiration of her after Entity and Sam understands that. They do effectively prioritise their working relationship and shift to being friends through S5-S6. So far so good.

              But where you and I differ is in whether during that time (a year and a half at this point), Sam and Jack continue to *know* without a shadow of a doubt that through all that time that they both continue to love each other deep down as more than friends.

              For me, they haven't spoken about their feelings during that time and can't speak about them so as time progresses, things happen and doubt creeps.

              And I don't believe, as some shippers, that there was some promise of one day that was supposed to sustain them. In fact, I think that the shift to focusing on their working relationship and friendship was in part an attempt to move on from their romantic feelings. So to me they're not promised to each other and that opens the door for miscommunication, assumptions being jumped to and confusion.

              For example, I think they miscommunicate over the events of S5's Ascension: I think Jack ends up thinking something happened with Orlin and Sam; Sam thinks Jack encouraged her to go on a date with another man and therefore doesn't see her as a romantic interest anymore.

              So I think they have doubts - unplanned and definitely not deliberate but they do lead to the characters themselves miscommunicating with each other over things like fishing invites because Sam can't just come out and say "do you still love me and does this invite still mean that you still love me."

              I would agree that if there was no doubt creeping into their minds about the others' feelings for them, than that would mean that they were both more on the same page about the fishing invites.

              But even then people occasionally do manage to miscommunicate with each other regardless. For me Sam's "you always invite me when you know I have something" is someone who is frustrated about Jack's behaviour because she doesn't understand it. If he - regardless of shipping and just with the two of them as friends - really wanted her to go fishing with him than (as you and others have said), why not just invite her at a time when they could both go?

              Obviously as I don't see them as just friends, that frustration and doubt that Sam shows over Jack's actions here takes on an added flavour of angst.
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                Originally posted by Schmacky View Post
                I don't mind it so much and I think it's because the military needs Daniel and Teal'c a hell of a lot more than they need the military. Daniel is a subject expert, best in his field for this particular project... as we've already seen, he's not that easily replaceable. The military *needs* him and it's a good thing Daniel doesn't have such a large ego to expose that.

                Same thing with Teal'c and he's more important than Daniel. He is the link to the Jaffa and the alliance there. I just don't see the military treating either of these two the same as they would any other civilians.

                BTW, I'm new here. Love Sam and Jack. Woo!
                Welcome! I admit I agree with EvenstarSRV.

                While Daniel and Teal'c were important, they should have in theory been subject to the same rules as everyone working at the SGC.

                I do think Jack does get more relaxed about rules if he trusts someone and that's really the difference between how he treats Daniel and Teal'c compared to other civilian scientists.

                And he's definitely relaxed about some rules with Sam who he also trusts - he doesn't insist on protocol, he'll get her a drink at a do, he'll get out of the boat first, etc. Whereas, with other military he's much more insistent on protocol being followed.
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                  I'm not touching the fishing discussion even with a 10-foot pole! My brain is fried and I don't even know what I think. I've been reading Rachel and Evenstar's posts and thinking they both have valid points. I'm back to my original assessment: my brain is fried and refuses to cooperate.

                  Originally posted by Schmacky View Post
                  I don't mind it so much and I think it's because the military needs Daniel and Teal'c a hell of a lot more than they need the military. Daniel is a subject expert, best in his field for this particular project... as we've already seen, he's not that easily replaceable. The military *needs* him and it's a good thing Daniel doesn't have such a large ego to expose that.

                  Same thing with Teal'c and he's more important than Daniel. He is the link to the Jaffa and the alliance there. I just don't see the military treating either of these two the same as they would any other civilians.

                  BTW, I'm new here. Love Sam and Jack. Woo!
                  First of all, welcome!

                  Secondly, in case of Daniel & Teal'c vs military I know I agree with Evenstar and Rachel. I disagree that the military needs them both more than they need the military. Without the AF neither of them would achieve anything. Daniel would still be a ridiculed egyptologist and Teal'c would be either still a First Prime or dead or a lab rat.

                  I also disagree that the military *needs* Daniel. He's a great asset, but as season 6 proves he *is* replaceable. Jonas manages just fine. At no point during Daniel's absence his expertise is demanded; he's missed as a friend and teammate, but not as a scientist.

                  And finally, the SGC is supposed to have the best of the best working for them and while SG-1 members are no doubt the top minds in their fields, I honestly don't see why would they get special treatment over everybody else.

                  Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                  I meant that reply to be mainly done in jest, I don't think Sam would really say that either. Though to be fair, on the show we did see Sam working on projects before/after missions more often than we saw Jack working on something. So I don't think that Jack's job is less important, but that Sam's job most likely requires more hours to be put in between missions and during their downtime than his. Because even with all the time Sam may have put into her projects like the reactor, it almost always came down to Jack being able to execute her plan to save the day.
                  You know, that's one more thing that's been bugging me about the show. Jack is 2IC of the base, he must have been left in charge quite a few times (when Hammond was on downtime for example) - it doesn't make sense that Jack is portrayed as having nothing to do apart from SG-1 missions. If anything, given all the paperwork and command decisions he must have been involved in he should be at least as busy as Sam and Daniel. Ditto on Teal'c, what with all the military trainings he must have given and received.
                  There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                    Petra said
                    You know, that's one more thing that's been bugging me about the show. Jack is 2IC of the base, he must have been left in charge quite a few times (when Hammond was on downtime for example) - it doesn't make sense that Jack is portrayed as having nothing to do apart from SG-1 missions. If anything, given all the paperwork and command decisions he must have been involved in he should be at least as busy as Sam and Daniel. Ditto on Teal'c, what with all the military trainings he must have given and received.
                    This is where you get to reminder yourself that we only get to see part of their days. Aside from missions, we most often see Jack when he's interacting with the others, on break, whereas we see the others while they're working. We should thank the ptb that they don't make us sit through watching Jack do paperwork behind a table in the cafeteria more than they do.

                    Seaboe
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                      Originally posted by Petra View Post
                      You know, that's one more thing that's been bugging me about the show. Jack is 2IC of the base, he must have been left in charge quite a few times (when Hammond was on downtime for example) - it doesn't make sense that Jack is portrayed as having nothing to do apart from SG-1 missions. If anything, given all the paperwork and command decisions he must have been involved in he should be at least as busy as Sam and Daniel. Ditto on Teal'c, what with all the military trainings he must have given and received.
                      I don't think it is ever stated in the show explicitly that Jack is 2IC of the base, does it? I don't mind assuming that; it makes sense. I'm just saying I don't remember seeing or hearing it.

                      I think Jack does work a lot more than he maybe lets on. I was watching The Other Side yesterday and when Jack arrives he says he is there 2 hours early. That's not the actions of someone who doesn't have a lot of responsibilities outside of SG1 missions, or who fails to take them seriously. It's just in comparison to Sam and Daniel, who are workaholics (they never left the base), he seems a lot more relaxed.

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                        Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
                        This is where you get to reminder yourself that we only get to see part of their days. Aside from missions, we most often see Jack when he's interacting with the others, on break, whereas we see the others while they're working. We should thank the ptb that they don't make us sit through watching Jack do paperwork behind a table in the cafeteria more than they do.

                        Seaboe
                        But see, this is all your assumption. We are never told on the show that Jack has a break and that's why he visits others. And it's TPTB conscious decision to show them working while he isn't. I don't need to see him working, little mention once in a while - when others are talking about their work for example - of his duties would have been enough.

                        And personally I'd be happy to watch him reading phone book for the entire ep, let alone work in cafeteria

                        Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                        I don't think it is ever stated in the show explicitly that Jack is 2IC of the base, does it? I don't mind assuming that; it makes sense. I'm just saying I don't remember seeing or hearing it.
                        You are right. Jack being 2IC of the base is fanon, just like Daniel being the Head of Archeology Department or Sam being the head scientist of the SGC - none of these things has ever been confirmed onscreen. But given the attitude of the base personnel towards him it makes sense, IMO.

                        And it has nothing to do with him commanding SG-1. I hate fics that make Sam or Cam 2IC of the base just because they happen to be on the premiere team.

                        I think Jack does work a lot more than he maybe lets on. I was watching The Other Side yesterday and when Jack arrives he says he is there 2 hours early. That's not the actions of someone who doesn't have a lot of responsibilities outside of SG1 missions, or who fails to take them seriously. It's just in comparison to Sam and Daniel, who are workaholics (they never left the base), he seems a lot more relaxed.
                        I agree. The Other Side is the perfect example of how it can be implied that Jack had as much work as the rest of his team. But on the other hand we have episodes like PonR, when Sam, Daniel and Teal'c are all impatient for the briefing to start because they must go back to their work and they list all the things they were doing earlier while Jack basically says he was doing nothing and is bored. All I'm saying is that it would have been nice to hear something like "I was in the meeting with other SG team leaders" or something.
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                          Originally posted by Petra View Post
                          I agree. The Other Side is the perfect example of how it can be implied that Jack had as much work as the rest of his team. But on the other hand we have episodes like PonR, when Sam, Daniel and Teal'c are all impatient for the briefing to start because they must go back to their work and they list all the things they were doing earlier while Jack basically says he was doing nothing and is bored. All I'm saying is that it would have been nice to hear something like "I was in the meeting with other SG team leaders" or something.
                          I think if Jack were in a meeting, or had to go to a meeting, or needed to write a memo, etc. he would be bored.

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                            Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                            I don't think it is ever stated in the show explicitly that Jack is 2IC of the base, does it? I don't mind assuming that; it makes sense. I'm just saying I don't remember seeing or hearing it.
                            Yet another thing to watch/listen for in rewatches ... for those of us obsessive() enough to do so. Though I do lean towards the "Jack is the 2IC of the base" just because he is on SG1 and is the most experienced (that we know of) of anybody else on the base to be in that position. The only time Sam was ever hinted at being 2IC (IIRC) was in "Uninvited" when she was temporarily in charge while Landry was at Jack's cabin and Reynolds was offworld on a mission, and it was implied that Reynolds would have been in charge of the SGC had he been on base during SG1's/Landry's absence at the cabin. And now I'm wondering who was in charge of the SGC while SG1/Landry were on the mission in "Unending", and Landry was commanding the Odyssey.

                            I would like to have seen an episode that was more or less devoted to explaining those roles better while SG1 was on base rather than on a mission. Maybe especially what Teal'c did besides sitting in his room, amongst all those candles, kel-no-reeming. I always thought it was a wonder the fire alarms didn't go off with all those lit candles in such a small space.

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                              Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                              I think if Jack were in a meeting, or had to go to a meeting, or needed to write a memo, etc. he would be bored.
                              This actually brings up a salient point. In "Progeny", when the Chief of Staff arrived on base, Jack mentioned something about not getting his memos. Do you all think this is because he doesn't bother checking them, or that modern technological capabilities aren't something of which he readily avails himself? For example--he has email, but doesn't like logging in, or he doesn't know how?

                              And as for the 2IC debate--I think that most people assume that the chain is such is that when something happens, they usually call for O'Neill and the rest of the team. If SG-1 were purely field and weren't utilized in the central command arena, then they wouldn't call them in so much. (And someone smarter and who has had more sleep than I will have to think of examples.)
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                                Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
                                This actually brings up a salient point. In "Progeny", when the Chief of Staff arrived on base, Jack mentioned something about not getting his memos. Do you all think this is because he doesn't bother checking them, or that modern technological capabilities aren't something of which he readily avails himself? For example--he has email, but doesn't like logging in, or he doesn't know how?
                                All of the above, but especially that he just doesn't check them.

                                And that's one of my favorite Jack scenes.
                                Last edited by hedwig; August 28, 2010, 11:20 AM.

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