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    One of the things I like about Cure is that there is no villain. No one is acting maliciously. It's nice to see an ethical problem not kicked off by someone or thing doing the evil riff.

    Seaboe
    If you're going to allow yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in -- Steven Brust

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      Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
      One of the things I like about Cure is that there is no villain. No one is acting maliciously. It's nice to see an ethical problem not kicked off by someone or thing doing the evil riff.

      Seaboe
      I agree with that. I think a lot of our dilemmas and conflicts in real life don't originate from evil motives or an obvious bad guy. In this case, I just think the foundational ethics for all involved leave a lot to be desired.

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        Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
        [B]The only time they really disagree is when the Tok'ra having been informed the queen is Egeria, "suddenly" are stumped in helping the Pangarans with a cure.

        In a very subtle way, the effects of Jack's experience are still being shown as he is very suspicious at the timing and is more than willing to believe that the Tok'ra are simply being political. His point is that the Tok'ra will always put the life of the symbiote ahead of human lives (hence is we're just a cosy place to live). And when Sam objects saying she doesn't think that they are lying about being stumped as they wouldn't just condemn thousands to death, Jack is right when he points out that Kelmaa effectively has done that by sacrificing her own life and giving her host to Egeria.
        I didn't spell out all of the logical fallacies with Jack's arguments before because I thought my review was too long already. But I have to say that I disagree with Jack's position. He is just dead wrong, and clearly allowing his judgment to be colored by his own bad experience.

        As to the Tok'ra withhold a cure to "get what they want." This would mean that the Tok'ra are all ridiculously illogical and blind stupid, something I just can't accept. What the Tok'ra want is for Egeria to be freed. The Pangarans can't free Egeria because of their people's dependence on tretonin. That's a straight up exchange. Why wouldn't the Tok'ra give the Pangarans a cure if they had it, when it is the only thing that will in fact get them what they want?

        As to Kelmaa dooming the Pangarans to death, there are two reasons why this is incorrect. 1) Although Kelmaa, the symboite gave up her life so Egeria could have a host, the blending still required the willing acquiessence of the host, a human. (Unless you believe Erigia would take an unwilling host, which I cannot because that would be entirely OoC.) So it wasn't just a symbiote choosing it's own kind over humans; it was a human choosing to save the Tok'ra. 2) Kelmaa's act (or that of her host) did not doom the Pangarans to death. They doomed themselves by taking a drug they knew was fatally flawed. Egeria was on the verge of death before she took a host, which meant those people were about to die regardless. Following the logic of Jack's argument we would have to say that we also doomed the Pangarans to death because we refused to help them procure a new queen. Kelmaa's choice did no additional harm. You might argue that the blending hastened Egeria's death, thereby shortening the Pangaran's life expectancy, but it is hard to believe given Egeria's advanced age and obviously failing condition (the Pangarans already knew they urgently needed a new queen) that it was a great difference. Besides, the argument was that the Tok'ra had doomed them to death, not that she had slightly shortened their already soon to be ended (by their own poor judgment) lives. And, though they didn't know it at the time, it was Kelmaa's sacrifice that allowed Egeria to save them all.
        Last edited by hlndncr; August 13, 2010, 08:51 AM. Reason: Spelling

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          Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
          I didn't spell out all of the logical fallacies with Jack's arguments before because I thought my review was too long already. But I have to say that I disagree with Jack's position. He is just dead wrong, and clearly allowing his judgment to be colored by his own bad experience.

          As to the Tok'ra withhold a cure to "get what they want." This would mean that the Tok'ra are all ridiculously illogical and blind stupid, something I just can't accept. What the Tok'ra want is for Egeria to be freed. The Pangarans can't free Egeria because of their people's dependence on tretonin. That's a straight up exchange. Why wouldn't the Tok'ra give the Pangarans a cure if they had it, when it is the only thing that will in fact get them what they want?

          As to Kelmaa dooming the Pangarans to death, there are two reasons why this is incorrect. 1) Although Kelmaa, the symboite gave up her life so Egeria could have a host, the blending still required the willing acquiessence of the host, a human. (Unless you believe Erigia would take an unwilling host, which I cannot because that would be entirely OoC.) So it wasn't just a symbiote choosing it's own kind over humans; it was a human choosing to save the Tok'ra. 2) Kelmaa's act (or that of her host) did not doom the Pangarans to death. They doomed themselves by taking a drug they new was fatally flawed. Egeria was on the verge of death before she took a host, which meant those people were about to die regardless. Following the logic of Jack's argument we would have to say that we also doomed the Pangarans to death because we refused to help them procure a new queen. Kelmaa's choice did no additional harm. You might argue that the blending hastened Egeria's death, thereby shortening the Pangaran's life expectancy, but it is hard to believe given Egeria's advanced age and obviously failing condition (the Pangarans already knew they urgently needed a new queen) that it was a great difference. Besides, the argument was that the Tok'ra had doomed them to death, not that she had slightly shortened their already soon to be ended (by their own poor judgment) lives. And, though they didn't know it at the time, it was Kelmaa's sacrifice that allowed Egeria to save them all.
          I agree completely with this. It's well thought out and way better stated that I can.

          (And for whatever reason, GW wouldn't let me green you, so you get Virtual Green).

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            Great review, hlndncr! I agree, The Cure is a difficult episode, ethically, and not a comfortable one, although of course a lot of good does come from it eventually with the discovery of tretonin that is hugely important for the Jaffa long-term.

            Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
            Up until this point, the body language for Jack is one of dependence on Sam. He is constantly leaning into her, turning toward her, looking at her, like he is seeking her assurance and support. It is also a rather funny moment when he mentions the “man friend” and he looks at her rather uncomfortably, like this is the last sort of thing he really wants to be talking about with her. After the discussion in the lab, their body language changes slightly. You see them standing together in the door, but leaning away. There is a fission between them, which I actually think demonstrates the strength of their relationship and the trust between them. Sam can and does disagree with him, on a deeply personal issue, but they are still a team.
            This is a great observation The awkwardness with the 'man friend' thing is reminiscent of the 'sexual reproduction' conversation with Heimdall in Revelations, where Jack is equally awkward talking about the subject in Sam's presence. Trying not to read too much into it, but it is funny that Jack gets rather adolescent whenever this subject comes up and Sam's around
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              Howdie Campers!

              Dropping this off for anyone interested...

              http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6237250/..._a_Door_Closes

              *waves and giant hugs to all my old Shipper friends*
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                Synopsis

                Sam gets approached by a journalist asking questions about her involvement with a top secret project, code-named Prometheus. She has a small sample of Trinium, so Sam reports it back to Hammond - they clearly have a leak somewhere. Hammond manages to get the President to lean on Julia Donovan's boss and veto the story, but in the end SG1 have to agree to give her and her team exclusive access to the Prometheus, which turns out to be a huge honkin' spaceship being built under the Nevada desert. Sam and Jonas are sent to show them around, but of course, the camera crew turn out to be working for the dastardly Colonel Simmons, and take them all hostage while they take over the ship. Sam gets trapped in a storage closet, but after a bit of engineering that would make Macgyver proud, she manages to communicate with Jack and Teal'c, who are waiting outside with Major Davis. The bad guys demand that Simmons is brought to them, along with the Goa'ulded Adrian Conrad. Reluctantly, our good guys comply. Unsurprisingly, once Simmons and Conrad are on board, they take off for pastures new. Jack and Teal'c fly up in a death glider and sneak on board for some thrilling heroics. They manage to take back the ship, but not before it sets off through hyperspace to somewhere unknown. This is a problem, as Sam can't get them back if she doesn't know where they are, but luckily the Asgard have been keeping tabs on them and Thor turns up right in the nick of time to do his deus ex machina thing. However, this time, he wants something in return...

                Analysis

                This is one of those politics-heavy episodes that isn't really all that exciting in itself, but which is very important to the ongoing storylines, setting up a lot of things in motion even as it closes other arcs off. So we get the end of Adrian Conrad and Simmons, but a lot more evidence that the Rogue NID are still patiently scheming and not above partnering with Goa'uld, which will of course come back again a few more times in the future. Short-term, we get the set-up for Unnatural Selection, with Thor and the Replicators back in the game. And of course this marks the moment at which Earth really becomes capable of space (and interstellar) travel of their own accord, without having to rely on salvaged Goa'uld ships or hitching rides with the Asgard. Otherwise though, this episode doesn't really do much in terms of its own plot - it's all about setting things up and introducing us to the idea that we have ships now.

                Implications for Sam and Jack

                Nothing much really, certainly nothing long-term, but there are a few nice moments. There's a long focus on Jack's reaction when Major Davis says that Sam will be dead by the time they get to orbit, and I really like the moment of acknowledgement between Sam and Jack when Jack turns up in the nick of time yet again to save her on the Prometheus. There's just that tiny, fleeting smile as if to say 'but of course'. It always makes me think of Desperate Measures and the almost underwhelmed reaction there when Jack turns up - like Sam just takes it for granted that he will, just as he takes it for granted that Sam can solve any problem. Finally, although this may just be the shipper specs, but Jack isn't half in a towering rage when he turns up at the Prometheus after it gets hijacked. He storms out of that car, barely letting it come to a halt, and lets rip on Major Davis pretty much the second he opens the door. I'm trying to think, but it's not often that we see Jack that heated. He does cold anger a lot, that kind of stony fury, but sheer raging like that is not his usual MO. My shippy side likes to think that that's at least partly because Sam's inside and in danger, and not just because they've let bad guys get ahold of their prize asset. As he says, "This is supposed to be the most secure facility on the planet" - Sam was supposed to be safe, and yet suddenly she's not. Maybe I'm letting the shippy specs take over here, but I like the idea anyway
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                  Prometheus

                  I think Josi covered it all with the review really

                  But my two pennies...

                  Generally

                  It's kind of not a two parter but is because without this first part things don't get set up for Unnatural Selection but this is an episode in itself.

                  Admittedly, I'm just not fussed about this one although there are some nice moments, I always thought the follow-up to Sam's expeience with Adrian Conrad and her confronting him would be more meaningful. And I think as a way of getting rid of Conrad and Simmons though who had effectively been the S5 villains, it was a good enough story.

                  Sam/Jack

                  Again, there are some nice moments most of which Josi touched on.

                  I love Jack's anger as he exits the car and immediately starts yelling because I do find it shippy and too over the top for it just to be concern for his team-mates, and Jack has never been upset about hardware.

                  I also love the moment where he's told if Sam can't get out of the room, she'll be dead because there's no life support on the deck she's trapped on; Jack's face says it all at that.

                  Can I just fangurl Sam using the contents of the room to break out in a scene MacGyver would have been proud of...

                  And Jack riding to her rescue again, just in the nick of time, seems a very apropos DM call back.
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                    Nice review Josi

                    I haven't had the time to rewatch Prometheus - or Cure earlier - and I'm going from memory here, but I wanted to comment on the points josi and Rachel made.

                    Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                    Admittedly, I'm just not fussed about this one although there are some nice moments, I always thought the follow-up to Sam's expeience with Adrian Conrad and her confronting him would be more meaningful. And I think as a way of getting rid of Conrad and Simmons though who had effectively been the S5 villains, it was a good enough story.
                    Yes, that's how I feel. I like how Conrad and Simmons were dealt with, but ideally I would have liked more Sam-Conrad confrontation. Simmons was as much Jack's foe as he was Sam's, so I'm okay with that.

                    I love Jack's anger as he exits the car and immediately starts yelling because I do find it shippy and too over the top for it just to be concern for his team-mates, and Jack has never been upset about hardware.
                    I...don't see the scene as shippy. I always thought he was pissed because he'd been warning Hammond and everybody else that something like that could happen, he'd been overruled and then the very thing he'd predicted happened and subsequently half of his team was put in danger, not to mention the civilians and the risk to the whole project. So he's angry at the situation, but I don't see anything particularly shippy about it. Sorry.

                    And Jack riding to her rescue again, just in the nick of time, seems a very apropos DM call back.
                    Now that's the reason I like our discussions so much. I never made the connection between DM & Prometheus. Interesting.
                    There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                      Originally posted by Petra View Post
                      I...don't see the scene as shippy. I always thought he was pissed because he'd been warning Hammond and everybody else that something like that could happen, he'd been overruled and then the very thing he'd predicted happened and subsequently half of his team was put in danger, not to mention the civilians and the risk to the whole project. So he's angry at the situation, but I don't see anything particularly shippy about it. Sorry.

                      Now that's the reason I like our discussions so much. I never made the connection between DM & Prometheus. Interesting.
                      I totally agree with your comment about why Jack was so angry. Sure he was angry that two of his teammates were on the Prometheus, but given his rant about the Prometheus being the biggest, most secret, classified thing on the face of the planet I definitely lean toward that as being why he was so angry.

                      And sort of agree with the connection between DM & Prometheus. I loved how Jack and Teal'c rescued Sam. And while the rescue of Sam was in the nick of time, there were other episodes where a rescue was in the "nick of time", so I didn't connect that with the "nick of time" rescue in DM. I did connect this episode, though, with DM what with Simmons and Conrad being dealt with quite appropriately, and found myself cheering a bit and thinking "so there" when both of them met their doom. I was wishing Sam could have been the one to deal with Conrad, and like to think she wouldn't have hesitated at disposing of him after what he tried to do with her.

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                        Originally posted by hedwig View Post
                        I totally agree with your comment about why Jack was so angry. Sure he was angry that two of his teammates were on the Prometheus, but given his rant about the Prometheus being the biggest, most secret, classified thing on the face of the planet I definitely lean toward that as being why he was so angry.

                        And sort of agree with the connection between DM & Prometheus. I loved how Jack and Teal'c rescued Sam. And while the rescue of Sam was in the nick of time, there were other episodes where a rescue was in the "nick of time", so I didn't connect that with the "nick of time" rescue in DM. I did connect this episode, though, with DM what with Simmons and Conrad being dealt with quite appropriately, and found myself cheering a bit and thinking "so there" when both of them met their doom. I was wishing Sam could have been the one to deal with Conrad, and like to think she wouldn't have hesitated at disposing of him after what he tried to do with her.
                        I have to admit that generally I don't recall many episodes at all where Jack rescues Sam "just in the nick of time" or indeed, any of them rescue each other "in the nick of time." That's why it kind of stands out to me especially as it was a BIG motif in DM.

                        In fact, the only other instances that spring to mind are Teal'c showing up to save them from the Jaffa just as the armband gives out on Daniel in Upgrades, and Jack showing up to rescue Daniel from the guerillas in Evolution. I'm sure there must be others...maybe shippyness has erased them from my brain, lol.
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                          Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                          I have to admit that generally I don't recall many episodes at all where Jack rescues Sam "just in the nick of time" or indeed, any of them rescue each other "in the nick of time." That's why it kind of stands out to me especially as it was a BIG motif in DM.

                          In fact, the only other instances that spring to mind are Teal'c showing up to save them from the Jaffa just as the armband gives out on Daniel in Upgrades, and Jack showing up to rescue Daniel from the guerillas in Evolution. I'm sure there must be others...maybe shippyness has erased them from my brain, lol.
                          I can't either, but I think what also really triggered the connection for me on rewatching was Sam and Jack's reactions - the almost non-reactions except for a slightly wry shared look, which is very much like DM
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                            Great review Josi!


                            Not one of my favourite episodes but I love Unnatural Selection and, as a lead in to that it works. But, again, a bit like with Frozen it's a lot like there's this story here to "fill" what is actually a set up to something much bigger. Not that there's anything wrong with the whole set up, except I tend to be in Jack's camp about disclosure here, because I think it's dumb of them to have opened up to the media like that. Oh and I must be one of the few who wasn't overly keen on the way Simmons and Conrad were dispatched here; not so much from the method but from the brevity (particularly in Conrad's case) of their villany. I just think there was a lot more mileage in that arc that got wasted.


                            Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                            I have to admit that generally I don't recall many episodes at all where Jack rescues Sam "just in the nick of time" or indeed, any of them rescue each other "in the nick of time." That's why it kind of stands out to me especially as it was a BIG motif in DM.

                            In fact, the only other instances that spring to mind are Teal'c showing up to save them from the Jaffa just as the armband gives out on Daniel in Upgrades, and Jack showing up to rescue Daniel from the guerillas in Evolution. I'm sure there must be others...maybe shippyness has erased them from my brain, lol.
                            Yes, I don't think the "nick of time" cliche rescue is something they made a habit of, thank heavens. There are other times when, generally, they were rescued at the last minute - individually or as a whole - by some fortunate happen stance (the rescue at the end of Fail Safe comes to mind). But actually Sam pretty much rescues herself most times it needs doing; even when Jack comes in on his metaphorical white steed she can kind of roll her eyes at him and say "too late, mate".


                            Jack's anger? Hmm, yes, it is unusual to see him demonstrably angry - in a non combat situation anyway and even then his anger is finely honed and put to constructive ends. The other time we see him proper lose it was during Red Sky when the rocket gets sabotaged. Again, another case of avoidable loss/circumstances.
                            I have never really linked his anger with Sam's peril (specifically) but it's possible it's a contributing cause.
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                              Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                              Not one of my favourite episodes but I love Unnatural Selection and, as a lead in to that it works. But, again, a bit like with Frozen it's a lot like there's this story here to "fill" what is actually a set up to something much bigger. Not that there's anything wrong with the whole set up, except I tend to be in Jack's camp about disclosure here, because I think it's dumb of them to have opened up to the media like that. Oh and I must be one of the few who wasn't overly keen on the way Simmons and Conrad were dispatched here; not so much from the method but from the brevity (particularly in Conrad's case) of their villany. I just think there was a lot more mileage in that arc that got wasted.
                              This has reminded me of the other thing I thought of but completely forgot to put in my review Of course this episode also anticipates Heroes in the idea of the SGC opening up to being documented, in anticipation of maybe someday going public. It's because of what happens here that Bregman has to deal with a USAF film crew, so this again is an example of this episode setting things up. They learn from their mistakes here, but it doesn't put them off the idea of documenting their work full stop.

                              Yes, I don't think the "nick of time" cliche rescue is something they made a habit of, thank heavens. There are other times when, generally, they were rescued at the last minute - individually or as a whole - by some fortunate happen stance (the rescue at the end of Fail Safe comes to mind). But actually Sam pretty much rescues herself most times it needs doing; even when Jack comes in on his metaphorical white steed she can kind of roll her eyes at him and say "too late, mate".
                              Thankfully not indeed, and I think the way that Sam and Jack do react when he does on those few occasions is also a way of them undermining the cliche when they do use it.
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                                Originally posted by Petra View Post
                                Nice review Josi



                                I...don't see the scene as shippy. I always thought he was pissed because he'd been warning Hammond and everybody else that something like that could happen, he'd been overruled and then the very thing he'd predicted happened and subsequently half of his team was put in danger, not to mention the civilians and the risk to the whole project. So he's angry at the situation, but I don't see anything particularly shippy about it. Sorry.
                                Okay--here I am officially de-lurking. I hope that I don't degrade the upstanding and highbrow analysis and discussion into something fluffy--but hey--you people told me to come here. It's your fault.

                                I agree with this. For the longest time I chose to see this as a shippy thing, but the more I watched it (I really like this ep), the more I decided that for Jack, the biggest anger-inducer was the "I told you so" moment he was having.

                                Because I like the small shipper moments more--they seem more personal. Like the teeny tiny itsy bitsy smile that she gives him when he and Teal'c emerge around the corner. (As has already been said, it's incredibly similar to the teeny tiny itsy bitsy reaction she gives him in DM.) It's almost like she's saving up the big "thank you" until she can do it properly. As in--taking him up on the whole fishing thing.

                                Ooh--there's a fic idea.
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