Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hedwig]

Not really much to add to what others have said, except to add to the compliments on the review.

Even though I agree with Petra's reasons for a lot of bits in the episode not making a lot of sense, this is one of my most favorite episodes. And Season 6, as a whole, is one of my favorite seasons.

I do wish Jonas had been in it for more than the moment or two he was shown back at the SGC; he could have been worked into the episode fairly easily. But I'm glad Janet was in it, whatever the reasons for her being there. I always love more Sam/Janet scenes than we ever got.

Adding a bit to the comments about Malek, I thought it was a bit strange he chose the minute the Ashrak became visible to try make up for his previous moment of weakness with Bra'tac to try to do something heroic - by running right in front of Jack, pretty much at the moment Jack was whipping out his knife, thereby blocking Jack's attempt to strike.

And I totally agree about the knife thingy, and how odd Jack decided to whip it out and use it. Then I got to thinking about it, and decided he might have figured if the big gun didn't do any damage to the Ashrak, maybe the knife would, given how it had penetrated Heru'ur's personal shield on Abydos in "Secrets" when Jack whipped his knife out and threw it at him, and it penetrated the shield and hit him in the hand. He may have thought something similar would happen here. Something about slower moving objects being able to get through when faster moving ones wouldn't? (A smiliar incident in "The Nox" when one of the Jaffa tossed a staff weapon to Apophis and it got through his shield, and later when they thought an arrow would do the same thing.) Otherwise, I got nothin' on why he would have done that.

I like the comments about how grounding Sam is for Jack (yet another sign of their compatibility). And that, in itself, is a little bit shippy in this episode for me.

Another thing I've always found interesting is the acrobatics displayed by guys getting hit by zat blasts or staff weapon blasts. It seems as though guys just flip right into the air or practically turn somersaults instead of just falling down when they get hit. I have to wonder sometimes whether a bunch of acrobatic performers were hired for those instances when I see those scenes. It's the same thing in the combat practice scenes, among Jaffa warriors, in some episodes. I sort of don't see the point on those flips and spins and turns, but it's a small thing and nothing I'm actually complaining about.

[iiradned]

Great review, Petra!

[dipsofjazz]

Sneaks in briefly to point out in the last paragraph to add the bit of that scene where Jack is blatantly checking Sam out right in front of Jacob just before she glares at him for cutting her off.

[hedwig]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...iance_look.gif

Yes, indeed. That's the one.

[Petra]

Thanks for the compliments guys

No the gun scene is complete thunk-for-thunk's-sake but it's still gorgeous! I'm not kicking you out the Jack Thunkers club just yet. I do believe TPTB saw how good RDA was looking during this season and thought they just had to showcase that.

Thank you.

*breaths big sigh of relief*

Essentially it's an exercise in showing the disparity between the two main allies of the SGC in the fight against the goa'uld, and how this can be overcome for the greater good. Except, later, we find out it can't. Not so much anyway. Oh well.

And I liked the realism of that too and would have loved the continuation of that storyline.

And I totally agree about the knife thingy, and how odd Jack decided to whip it out and use it. Then I got to thinking about it, and decided he might have figured if the big gun didn't do any damage to the Ashrak, maybe the knife would, given how it had penetrated Heru'ur's personal shield on Abydos in "Secrets" when Jack whipped his knife out and threw it at him, and it penetrated the shield and hit him in the hand. He may have thought something similar would happen here.

I didn't notice any personal shield but maybe it was invisible... Good theory.

[Tachyon]

Allegiance is a great episode! Great writing, great acting and Jacob. E'Nuf said.

this is one of my most favorite episodes. And Season 6, as a whole, is one of my favorite seasons.

Agreed!

[hlndncr]

I'm going to give you some of my serious thoughts on Allegiance now; then I'll come back later today with my review of Cure.

First, I have to say, great review Petra. But now I have to say, I don't entirely agree with you about Jack's leadership in this episode. Yes he does show some strong leadership qualities, but I don't think he did a very good job of curbing his obvious hostility toward the Tok'ra and his clear partiality for the Jaffa, and that shows poor leadership in my opinion.

I think if you wanted to see evidence of Jack's experiences in Abyss manifest in his character, this episode is it. We get an actual discussion with Jacob, in addition to his attitude toward the Tok'ra (which spills over into the next episode, but more on that later).

Now I think Jack was always going to side with the Jaffa over the Tok'ra, even without his experience with Kanan. He has more of a natural affinity toward the warrior class. The Tok'ra to him are sneaky, underhanded, not to be trusted. Interestingly, as I write this it occurs to me that this could represent two sides of Jack. He did, after all, operate in the shadows for much of his career. But it is clear to me that he finds that part of his life "damned distasteful" and he has tried to distance himself from it in favor of the more honorable straightforward fight.

It seems the Tok'ra remind Jack of all sorts of difficult things (his shady past, his unprofessional feelings for his 2IC, and the hijacking of his body by Kanan and later torture by Baal). Looking at it from that perspective I guess I do have to commend Jack for functioning as well as he does around the Tok'ra.

I really love the scene between Jacob and Jack. I love these two together, but this scene is different than their usual MO. They are usually pretty snarky, always trying to one-up the other. But this scene is very subdued and serious. It shows me how close they really are, and the trust they have with one another to talk so personally. And I can't help but see something of a father/son talk here. Jacob wants to comfort and support Jack, but he also needs to teach him about the history and what's necessary for their future. It's moments like these that make me believe that Jacob would approve of Sam and Jack being together.

A couple of unrelated thoughts before I get to Sam and Jack. As far as Jonas not being in the episode, I wasn't really bothered by it. I can see the logic in leaving him out. Everyone else fit into one of the three camps (Jaffa, Tok'ra, or Tau'ri) and had definite (if sometimes divided) loyalties to one or more of these factions. Jonas would essentially be a neutral third party that I think would have hampered the plot IMO.

As to why Jack pulled out his knife at the end. He was out of ammo. We saw him load and expend his spare clip for his P90 and then use all the shells in the big gun in that fruitless (but oh so picturesque) attempt at taking down the invisible assailant. By the time Sam and Malek got the generator reconfigured and working to make the Ashrak visible, the knife was the only usable weapon Jack had left.

Sam/Jack
As others have pointed out, these two seem very coupley in this episode, and they are almost always together. I think Sam sticks close to Jack on purpose. She knows his difficulty coping with the Tok'ra. She is his ballast. That steadying presence that curbs his excesses and keeps him balanced and afloat. We see that over and over again as she stands beside him and brings him down with a word or a look.

I also like how he flirts with her a little when she turns the modified generator on and it tingles, and he tells her he likes it. Yeah, subtle Jack.

[hlndncr]

Banner by Blacky Kitten

Summary:
SG1 meet with the Pangarans, a race of humans at approximately the same technological level as earth. During initial negotiations, the Pangarans offer earth a wonder drug called Tretonin that is supposed to give the user near perfect health, in exchange for information about gate travel. When the first worlds they desire to visit turn out to be goa’uld homeworlds, suspicions about our new friends begin to form. Upon further investigation, after receiving veiled hints from a Pangaran archeologist, Jonas and Teal’c discover that the Pangarans are raising thousands of infant goa’uld. When pressed, the Pangaran representative admits that goa’uld symbiotes are a key component of Tretonin. After discovering a gou’ald queen in stasis, the Pangarans began medical experimentation that eventually led to the development of the drug. Despite the fact that the drug suppresses the users immune system and requires ever increasing quantities, the Pangarans began implementing and even expanding its use, hoping to one day fix the flaw before it was too late. But now their queen is dying and thousands of Pangarans may die with her if a new queen or a cure is not found.

SG1 bring in the Tok’ra to assist. At first they are intrigued but not disturbed by the Pangarans medical research and use of the goa’uld queen, as well as puzzled by the genetic issues they discover in the symbiote and attendant problems with the Tretonin. When Jonas discovers that the queen the Pangarans have been abusing for medical research is not goa’uld but Egeria, the founder of the Tok’ra, Malek and Kelmaa immediately demand the release of their queen, and express outrage at her treatment by the Pangarans.

While the others debate how to proceed, Kelmaa sneaks into the room where Egeria is being held and gives up her life to provide a host for her. When Egeria awakens she explains that she had sabotaged her young in the hopes that the Pangarans would abandon their experiments. As a final act, Egeria explains what needs to be done to cure the Pangarans of their dependence on the Tretonin.

Favorite Scene:
Jack and Sam discuss their views on the Tok’ra.

Favorite Lines:
DOLLEN: They are sending their most respected team of representatives. No doubt the leader of this group will be a brilliant and savvy negotiator.
. . .
Personally, I cannot wait to meet a man of such genius.

Howdy, folks!

AND

Alright now, how is that possible? I mean, how does she make kids without a … man friend?

Generally:
This episode is hard for me to watch because of Pangarans’ lack of medical ethics, the situational ethics of the Tok’ra, and the fact that neither of these seem to bother us much.

Pangaran Medical Ethics
I’m not sure I have room to list everything I find appalling about the Pangarans’ medical ethics (or more accurately the lack thereof). First, there was their experimentation on a living creature. Although they did not know they were dealing with a sentient being it does not excuse their actions. Animals are not sentient beings, but we still restrict their use in medical research. Now I am not opposed to all animal experimentation. It is necessary, but should be done under very strict guidelines and as humanely as possible.

But the Pangarans forcibly bred the queen for ever increasing quantities of symbiotes to use not just for experimentation but as an actual component of their medicine. A medicine that was essentially a lifestyle drug, not even a vital lifesaving antidote to some deadly condition or disease. That is like grinding up puppies to make Viagra.

But it doesn’t stop there because when the drug didn’t work, they still chose to use it on their people. In our society the use of questionable experimental medications is occasionally permitted for terminally ill patients. But they took otherwise healthy individuals and administered a flawed experimental lifestyle drug to an expanding base of their population on the notion that they could enjoy the benefits now and with further research avoid the consequences later.

Another concern is the suggestion that Zenna, the Pangaran archeologist, that the use of Tretonin was a privilege that could be arbitrarily revoked by the Pangaran government, resulting in the death of the user, as a means of controlling their people.

All of these issues should have raised many more red flags for earth than it apparently did. And to be honest, I’m a little disappointed in Janet. Her report on the Tretonin shows her concern over the obviously problematic side effects, but as a doctor, she should have at least raised the issue of the Pangarans’ questionable medical ethics.

Tok’ra Situational Ethics
The Tok’ra certainly do not come off any better in this. They express only surprise and curiosity when they first discover the use of the gou’ald queen by the Pangarans. They suggest that it is an appropriate enough use of an enemy that has done no less to humans over the years. (And the Pangarans also later point out that as an enemy, we should not be opposed to procuring another gou’ald to use in this way.) It is only when the Tok’ra learn it is not an enemy, but their own queen they are outraged.

The use of one’s enemies for medical research is very reminiscent of the Nazi experimentation on Jews and other prisoners of war. That is certainly not the ethical code we should be following, and not something we should be willing to accept in our allies either.

Egeria’s Legacy
The only player in this drama who has the right to claim the moral high ground in this situation is Egeria. She was tortured and abused for the sake of very questionable medical research over decades. Yet in the end, she demonstrated why she was most definitely worthy of being called the founder of a movement that, at least in theory, opposes the goa’uld philosophically in every way. She saves the very people whose selfishness and lack of moral fortitude have doomed her and perhaps the future of her people as well.

The one bright spot in all this is that Tretonin did ultimately play an important role in the success of the movement she spawned. With it, the Jaffa were eventually freed from the goa’uld and were able to aid in bringing about their downfall. This, ultimately, is Egeria’s legacy.

Jack and Sam:
I feel like this episode is just a continuation of the same things we saw in Allegiance. Jack is uncomfortable and unhappy about dealing with the Tok’ra. Sam is there to be a steadying influence. He is really very dependent on Sam. She is essentially always at his side, and even when they are reporting to the SGC, Jack turns to her and ask if it’s OK to end the transmission. She does a lot of the talking with the Panagarans and with the Tok’ra especially.

Clearly their views and attitudes toward the Tok’ra are different, which comes out during their discussion (quasi-fight) in the lab over the Tok’ra’s motivations. Sam has always been willing to give them more of a benefit of the doubt. I think this really puzzles Jack, not just because of his own bad experience, but he clearly has bad memories of her possession as well.

But I do have a problem with Jack claiming the moral high ground in the debate. He has clearly chosen to side with the Panagarans over the Tok’ra (claiming Kelmaa has selfishly doomed thousands to death by her actions) which harkens back a little to Jack’s position in Scorched Earth, where he chose the Enkarans over the Gadmere. But in this case the Tok’ra are a dying (rather than already dead) race, and the Pangarans are not nearly so innocent.

He lets his emotions color his judgment and make several very illogical arguments that all come down to his statement, “We are just a nice place to live.” In other words, he feels used (no matter how justifiably so), and will not give them the benefit of the doubt or take their side, even when Egeria is in fact the innocent victim in all of this. I’m glad Sam pushes back and doesn’t let him entirely get away with it.

Up until this point, the body language for Jack is one of dependence on Sam. He is constantly leaning into her, turning toward her, looking at her, like he is seeking her assurance and support. It is also a rather funny moment when he mentions the “man friend” and he looks at her rather uncomfortably, like this is the last sort of thing he really wants to be talking about with her. After the discussion in the lab, their body language changes slightly. You see them standing together in the door, but leaning away. There is a fission between them, which I actually think demonstrates the strength of their relationship and the trust between them. Sam can and does disagree with him, on a deeply personal issue, but they are still a team.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

Hedwig said: "I sort of don't see the point on those flips and spins and turns, but it's a small thing and nothing I'm actually complaining about."

I believe the purpose of the flips and spins is to use momentum when it's imparted by a blow or fall and carry it through to the next move. Not that I actually do martial arts or anything.

Seaboe

[hedwig]

I believe the purpose of the flips and spins is to use momentum when it's imparted by a blow or fall and carry it through to the next move. Not that I actually do martial arts or anything.

Seaboe

I understand that part, especially when related to the martial arts or combat training. But I'm talking about when somebody gets hit by a staff weapon blast and then does an acrobatic flip or spin or turn or whatever, instead of falling (or sprawling) down. I don't see the point of that. In numerous episodes of SG1 when a Jaffa gets shot or hit by a staff blast, they turn into acrobats before they fall down dead.

[hlndncr]

I understand that part, especially when related to the martial arts or combat training. But I'm talking about when somebody gets hit by a staff weapon blast and then does an acrobatic flip or spin or turn or whatever, instead of falling (or sprawling) down. I don't see the point of that. In numerous episodes of SG1 when a Jaffa gets shot or hit by a staff blast, they turn into acrobats before they fall down dead.

Jaffa die with style.

[hedwig]

Jaffa die with style.

Maybe that's it. Drama, style, flair ...

[Cagranosalis]

Jaffa die with style.

Good point. And I was going to say, the only point to them was to give Dan Shea some really cool stunts to coordinate.


Nice review on The Cure hlndncr, I shall come back when it's not ridiculous-o-clock and post some comments.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

Hedwig said: "But I'm talking about when somebody gets hit by a staff weapon blast and then does an acrobatic flip or spin or turn or whatever, instead of falling (or sprawling) down. I don't see the point of that. In numerous episodes of SG1 when a Jaffa gets shot or hit by a staff blast, they turn into acrobats before they fall down dead."

It's not just the Jaffa, alas. I find most of the explosion related stunts to be over done, probably due to the use of the springboards. (can I say, Ohp6 slerdoed)(I actually said that OT, I hate the pulse 360 ads, but the preceding is what you get when you type too fast for the buffer).

Seaboe

"It's a portMANteau, like a portmanteau, only hairier" (from snopes bulletin board)

[Rachel500]

The Cure

Generally

On first watching this was no more than an OK with me. However, in rewatching I do enjoy the idea of the storyline perhaps more than the actual execution.

I do like the Jonas & Teal'c buddy stuff, and I think there was a nice chemistry between Jonas and the Pangaran archaeologist.

Of course, this story does have an importance going forward in the Jaffa tretonin allowing the Jaffa to become free of their symbiotes and also in Egeria's death reducing the hope for the Tok'ra in replenishing their race and increasing their numbers - an issue which is part of the reason why they later break the alliance.

On ethics...I think everyone does tend to ignore the ethics of what has happened in the past on the basis that the Pangarans didn't realise it was a sentient being when they started the experiments. Now while a more overt objection could have been made by someone, frankly while we have come along way in how we now experiment on animals, and even treat animals bred for food, overall humanity doesn't have any right to throw stones regarding the Pangarans initial experiments nor actually using it on their population without it being fully tested.

I do think that SG1 do raise the issue of ethics about experimenting on a sentient being when they discover what the Pangarans are up to and do object in principle to what they're doing, and the issue of the side-effects, etc. It's interesting for me that Jack actually does face Malek with it when he questions him regarding the Tok'ra's acceptance of the Pangarans using the Goa'uld that way. And, it does indicate to me that Jack at least is unsettled by it on an ethical basis. However, I think everyone is trying to focus on helping the Pangarans and saving human lives, the Goa'uld is dying and ruthlessly, I think everyone is not too bothered at the end of the day by another dead Goa'uld. Of course the question is shouldn't we be better than that?

Well, the fact that the Goa'uld turns out to be Egeria really brings that question into focus, through showing Malek is OK when its an enemy but outraged when one of his own kind, and it shows that you can't have it both ways. If this is wrong for Egeria, it was also wrong to be doing it *at all.*

The moral question then becomes who do you choose to save? Egeria and the Tok'ra or the Pangarans? For the Tok'ra they put their lives and their queen's first; the Pangarans put their own lives first. Ultimately SG1 is stuck in the middle of it. And yes, ultimately, Egeria is the one that shows the most grace is the discussion by forgiving the Pangarans for their ignorance and treatment of her, requesting forgiveness for her own act in sabotaging her young and so creating the Pangaran's dependence, and by providing the cure as her dying act.

Sam and Jack

They are becoming a double act in terms of diplomacy, and a support for each other. So there are some nice moments.

The only time they really disagree is when the Tok'ra having been informed the queen is Egeria, "suddenly" are stumped in helping the Pangarans with a cure.

In a very subtle way, the effects of Jack's experience are still being shown as he is very suspicious at the timing and is more than willing to believe that the Tok'ra are simply being political. His point is that the Tok'ra will always put the life of the symbiote ahead of human lives (hence is we're just a cosy place to live). And when Sam objects saying she doesn't think that they are lying about being stumped as they wouldn't just condemn thousands to death, Jack is right when he points out that Kelmaa effectively has done that by sacrificing her own life and giving her host to Egeria.

The only thing that doesn't ring true to me is that in the previous discussion on telling the Tok'ra about Egeria, Sam poses the question whether they should tell them at all and Jack insists on telling them. It just doesn't sit right. And would have worked better the other way round.