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    Originally posted by Nynaeve506
    I rarely 'ship' characters so when I do, I'm hardcore because I see it as canon and as part of the story. So I'm just a little touchier than most LOL
    Yeah, this is exactly how it is with me. Except S/J is the only pairing I've ever shipped so I tend to be incredibly (proportionally ) defensive of them. Thankfully my non-shipper friends on the forum are very understanding.

    Originally posted by Cagranosalis
    Personally, I no longer enjoy having debates with antis about this ship since I know I won't change their minds and, frankly, what's the point? live and let live.
    Well, those posts are my attempt to move on, sort of my last stand And you were my inspiration.

    Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
    I do want to clarify that I don't think anyone is wrong or misguided or anything like that when they watch the show this way. I do it myself to an extent when it comes to friendship scenes between Sam and Jack. It's just that when it comes to ship it often feels like they're watching the show in a very different way than I'm used to watching TV, so I'm often confused by it.
    I know where are you coming from on this. Anti-S/J metas are usually written by slashers so lately I've been reading a lot of slashers' comments and I certainly feel like we've been watching completely different show. I'm simply astounded by what moments some people see as J/D love. It's all in the interpretation, I guess.

    But I admit that no matter how many times I watch Need, I don't see Jack crying in it. Comforting Daniel, hugging, rocking - yes, crying - no.

    I also try to look at things as a whole on the show and yes often things that are brought up in later seasons change how I view earlier events. When I first saw Nemesis I just thought that Sam was flustered at Jack's fishing invite because he'd never invited her before, then D&C/WoO changed my impression of her feelings in that scene. However, it's not going to change my impression of their feelings in Solitudes for example, because even though they admit to romantic feelings later on, those hadn't developed at that point in the series, IMHO.
    WORD. Even as S/J shipper I don't see anything shippy in the first 2 seasons.

    As I've said before, when it comes to Sam and Jack's relationship my baseline is friendship with elements/moments of romantic feelings or 'ship' mixed in. I like to think of it in terms of different gears on a bike, where for the most part their feelings run at a certain speed and then shift into high gear during more shippy moments before settling back down. So when I say that I see a particular scene between Sam and Jack as friendship I mean that, while the potential for romantic feelings is always there, in that moment the driving force behind their actions, to me, comes from their bedrock of friendship and trust in each other, rather than their romantic feelings for each other. It's not 'just' friendship to me, it's that I think their feelings of friendship are more at the forefront in those moments and their romantic feelings serve more to deepen or underline, rather than drive, their emotions in that moment.
    I just wanted to say I love this metaphor. Comparing S/J to fast bikes/riding/flying is so incredibly apt, IMO.

    I hope that makes some sense, and I'd like to repeat that the last thing I want is for anyone here to feel at all defensive about how they ship S/J, and I'd like to apologize if I have made anyone feel that way.
    Speaking only for myself, I don't think you've done anything you'd have to apologise for.

    That is an element about it that bugs me, not just with Sam but with most of the other female characters on Stargate (and other shows to an extent). It's a bit like why I don't get the argument that S7/8 were all about Sam's personal life. Really there were just 3 episodes that focused on that (Chimera, Affinity, Threads), while Teal'c also had 3 eps focusing on his personal life (Birthright, Affinity, Sacrifices) but I don't see similar claims being made about him in that regard.
    Originally posted by leiasky
    Huh. Never quite thought about it that way.
    Spoilered for OT rant about sexism towards Sam (and female characters in general)

    Spoiler:
    As I mentioned sexism of the antis' arguments is the only thing that really bothers me about them. If you don't like S/J that's cool, but if you try to justify it by tearing Sam's character down and blaming her for the things guys do all the time - that's when I get angry.

    When you really think about it, all anti-S/J arguments boill down to "Sam and Jack are not equal and can never be equal. Why? Because she's younger and less experienced." Firstly, I have a problem with the assumption that a younger person is somehow worse or lacking because of her age and lesser life experience. But what really ticks me off is when the same people say "Now, Daniel is Jack's equal, his peer" and when you point out that he's also younger and less experienced than Jack they go "But it's different". Different how? Because he's a guy?

    And it's like that all the time. Sam is crucified for things guys are admired for. When Daniel cries fandom goes "aww, he's so sensitive", when Sam cries fandom goes "how dare she cry! She's weak! She'a disgrace to all women!". As Evenstar said, when guys get episodes focused on their love life it's called "fleshing out their characters", when Sam gets the same treatment it's "making her character all about a guy"*. When she doesn't make mistakes she's criticised for being too perfect, when she does - she's criticised for being unprofessional and weak. When Jack/Daniel/Teal'c don't make a mistakes it's because they are good characters, when they do it's because it gives them "character development". When Sam does something stupid to service the plot it immediately ruins her character, when the guys do something stupid - well, plot demanded it. it doesn't mean anything. When Sam knows things she realistically shouldn't know she's called Super Sam/Mary Sue/unrealistic; but when Daniel or Jack know things they shouldn't have a clue about it's "because he's really good at what he does" (Jack) or "because he's a genius" (Daniel) And so on...

    There’s one more thing driving me nuts. Some fans say that Sam has been“all about a guy” from season 4 onwards and she was a great character in the first 3 seasons. But…in season 1 she had several episodes showing her romantic/sexual/flirty dealings with the guys: Jack in Broca Divide, Jonas Hansen in The First Commandment , Narim in Enigma. Season 2 introduced Martouf (and again, 3 episodes showing their relationship). Season 3 re-introduced Jack (POV, 100 days), brought back Martouf (2 eps) and Narim (1 ep). Season 4 killed off Martouf (1 ep), introduced Joe as alt!future husband and continued Jack-theme. I really don’t see any drastic change between season 4 and the previous 3 in this department. The only difference is, season 4 made Jack’s interest in Sam canon and AFAIK the sentiment was born in season 4 in D/J slash circles. Hmm…is it possible that it’s not really about “Sam being all about a guy” but rather her daring to become an object of affection of one particular guy?

    And ultimately, how many fans complain that Jack's character has been ruined by ship? And how many claim that Sam's character has been ruined by ship? Isn't it sexist? Their feelings for each other are only part of their characters, yet in Sam's case it somehow defines her the moment some fans don't like her decisions while Jack gets left off the hook with "well, he's a guy". And it drives me crazy. I love Jack. I love Sam. I love their relationship. I love them separately and together but fandom often frustrates me to no end.

    I ranted again. Sorry. This is the end.
    There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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    awesome sig by Josiane

    Comment


      Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
      You do make sense, and I really try to pick my words here so I don't make anyone here feel defensive about shipping in a Ship thread of all places, I know I'm the guest here so I try to tread lightly.
      No need to feel like a guest. Everybody here is family. It's just that everybody either agrees or has varying degrees of disagreement about the subjects talked about.

      Comment


        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
        I do want to clarify that I don't think anyone is wrong or misguided or anything like that when they watch the show this way. I do it myself to an extent when it comes to friendship scenes between Sam and Jack. It's just that when it comes to ship it often feels like they're watching the show in a very different way than I'm used to watching TV, so I'm often confused by it.




        That is an element about it that bugs me, not just with Sam but with most of the other female characters on Stargate (and other shows to an extent). It's a bit like why I don't get the argument that S7/8 were all about Sam's personal life. Really there were just 3 episodes that focused on that (Chimera, Affinity, Threads), while Teal'c also had 3 eps focusing on his personal life (Birthright, Affinity, Sacrifices) but I don't see similar claims being made about him in that regard.



        You do make sense, and I really try to pick my words here so I don't make anyone here feel defensive about shipping in a Ship thread of all places, I know I'm the guest here so I try to tread lightly.

        I also try to look at things as a whole on the show and yes often things that are brought up in later seasons change how I view earlier events. When I first saw Nemesis I just thought that Sam was flustered at Jack's fishing invite because he'd never invited her before, then D&C/WoO changed my impression of her feelings in that scene. However, it's not going to change my impression of their feelings in Solitudes for example, because even though they admit to romantic feelings later on, those hadn't developed at that point in the series, IMHO.

        As I've said before, when it comes to Sam and Jack's relationship my baseline is friendship with elements/moments of romantic feelings or 'ship' mixed in. I like to think of it in terms of different gears on a bike, where for the most part their feelings run at a certain speed and then shift into high gear during more shippy moments before settling back down. So when I say that I see a particular scene between Sam and Jack as friendship I mean that, while the potential for romantic feelings is always there, in that moment the driving force behind their actions, to me, comes from their bedrock of friendship and trust in each other, rather than their romantic feelings for each other. It's not 'just' friendship to me, it's that I think their feelings of friendship are more at the forefront in those moments and their romantic feelings serve more to deepen or underline, rather than drive, their emotions in that moment.

        Also, IMHO Sam and Jack are people who are very adept at compartmentalizing their feelings, so even though we don't necessarily see them act or talk about their feelings for each other I have no trouble believing they still exist. I don't think they ever really ignored their attraction or feelings for each other, IMO they acknowledged them privately they just chose not to act on them publicly. And really, that's what I enjoy about their relationship so much and why ship between them works for me for the most part, because it's not hard at all for me to imagine them making that shift in gear and acting on their romantic feelings for each other when circumstances allow for it.

        I hope that makes some sense, and I'd like to repeat that the last thing I want is for anyone here to feel at all defensive about how they ship S/J, and I'd like to apologize if I have made anyone feel that way.
        I don't feel defensive at all from what you've said - my touchiness, I completely admit, is fully in my own head LOL. It's sort of like not standing too close to a naked man. You don't want anyone else to think you're crazy even though you kinda like the crazy naked man. Weird example, I know.

        I would agree that at the point of "Solitudes" for example, that there wasn't any romantic feelings - Jack was still incredibly hooked on Sara and Sam was fresh on their command. I'm not sure that there's even much we would disagree on since I tend to think the best romantic relationships are basically friendship with some sizzle and spice added in. It's a very natural thing for male and female friendships to end up with that very intense chemistry. I don't think their relationship started with that sizzle, although I think there are moments where Jack gives Sam that boyish grin and it's like turning the burner on a little bit higher. It's not romantic, it's just friendship with a little cayenne pepper. Add some oregano, and other spices and you've got a great spaghetti sauce... um... wait we weren't talking about food? :: looks shifty eyed ::

        Comment


          Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
          However, it's not going to change my impression of their feelings in Solitudes for example, because even though they admit to romantic feelings later on, those hadn't developed at that point in the series, IMHO.
          I haven't decided exactly how I feel about Solitudes yet. I'm still thinking and taking in everyone else's opinion. I do believe there was an attraction between the two very early on, even if that wasn't manifest in romantic feelings per se. Maybe that's the spice Nynaeve was talking about.

          I hope that makes some sense, and I'd like to repeat that the last thing I want is for anyone here to feel at all defensive about how they ship S/J, and I'd like to apologize if I have made anyone feel that way.
          I like getting your point of view. I don't think you've ever written anything you need to apologize for. And even among shippers we don't always agree. I can see shippiness in some scenes where others can't and vice versa. That's what makes this thread fun for me. And I'd say the more the merrier, but that's a cliche and you know how I feel about cliches--no, you know how Jack feels about cliches. *shrugs*

          Comment


            OK, I'm woefully behind having been away for the last couple of weeks (well, ever since I posted my last write-up!) and haven't had a chance to even begin catching up due to getting the Revelations one done, but I can see by the number of pages added that you guys must have been having some fab discussions while I've been gone! Hopefully at some point I'll have time to go back and read them, but for now, here's the final S5 review:


            Banner by Cags

            Synopsis

            SG1 are struggling to deal with the aftermath of Daniel's death/ascension, when Freyr turns up and says that the Asgard are having problems with Anubis, who has super spangly new shields on his ship and is threatening a planet where the Asgard have a very important lab. So SG1 head off in their cargo ship to rescue the Asgard scientist Heimdall from the lab, and do so, after much beaming and hologramming and running around on Anubis's mothership.

            Analysis

            Revelations is one of those episodes that I always seem to forget about, except for Heimdall and the scene between Sam and Jack in the corridor. Other than that, I often have to remind myself that Meridian is not in fact the last episode of S5, and to be honest, I always feel bad when I do watch Revelations that it doesn't make more of an impression on me, because there is an awful lot of really good stuff in it. After the emotional drama of Daniel's death/ascension, this episode has quite a tough job to do. It has to acknowledge the effect of losing Daniel on the team, and allow space for that and for the grieving process of both the rest of the characters and the viewers, and also move the story on as is necessary in a final episode so as to set things up for season 6. And it has to do all of this and try not to be too anticlimactic after the events of the episode before. By and large, I think Revelations achieves this superbly, but the very fact that I tend to mentally overlook it makes me think it didn't quite avoid the anticlimax thing... although maybe that's just me

            Anyway, we get the quiet moments to mourn in the first part of the episode (which I will actually go into in the S/J part as I have quite a bit to say there), before we get the action parts that move us on from Daniel's death/ascension and set up the storylines for the first few episodes of S6 - the mothership, Thor, Anubis etc. My only criticism really though is that I do wish that the Heimdall/Asgard cloning research storyline had been revisited at some point, as I think it has a lot of potential.

            There are a few more things to mention before I get stuck into the Sam/Jack stuff:

            - This episode marks a kind of turning point where the Asgard are concerned, in that suddenly they are shown as threatened by the Goa'uld. We're used to them running scared of the Replicators, but usually the Goa'uld are scared of them. However here in the very first scene we have the Asgard having to back off from the confrontation with Osiris, and then they are coming to Earth to beg SG1 for help against the Goa'uld. I think it prefigures how very un-useful the Asgard are in the fight against Anubis, and elevates the threat of Anubis very effectively above that which SG1 have faced from Apophis et al.

            - There are parallels between Thor's situation in this episode and Daniel's in the one previous, in that Thor chooses to sacrifice himself for the greater knowledge that Heimdall's research could bring, much like Daniel choosing to ascend in pursuit of the greater knowledge of the Ancients. Although admittedly as he was dying of massive radiation poisoning maybe that wasn't so much of a choice However, I think Jack sees the parallels - his reaction when told that Thor has slipped into a coma is telling. You can almost hear him thinking 'oh god not Thor too'.

            - There are also rather striking parallels between the Asgard as portrayed in this episode and the Ancients in general. Both advanced races whose pursuit of knowledge, immortality and self-improvement lead to their downfall, with the Ancients all ascending and the Asgard all clones, neither of which are able to reproduce and continue their race in any kind of vibrant manner. It seems interesting to me that we really find all this out about the Asgard right after Daniel goes off to join the Ancients, although of course at this point we don't know all that much about them really, so maybe this is me just drawing parallels in hindsight.

            - And one final thing, but I so love the scene where Jack and Teal'c are staring at the crystals on the mothership, having lost Sam and clearly having no clue what to do now. Then Jack blows them up. It's just a perfect little scene!

            Implications for Sam and Jack

            If you'd asked me before I rewatched this episode for the purposes of doing this write-up, I'd have said I didn't think there was much S/J ship stuff in it. But boy was I wrong - there's loads! I said above how this episode has this dual function, to show the effect of Daniel's loss at the same time as moving the story on from that loss, but I realised when rewatching that the first aspect of that is largely played out in the relationship between Sam and Jack throughout the episode. Right from the start they are obviously reacting very differently - Sam feels they need more time to grieve, whereas Jack emphatically wants SG1 back on active duty as soon as possible. This is shown right at the start in that beautiful scene with Sam and Hammond in Daniel's lab, and emphasised in the briefing room scene where Jack cuts across Sam's objections to helping the Asgard with a curt 'We'll do it'. Then of course we have the scene in the corridor (as in Cags's fantastic banner above), where Jack blows Sam off as she tries to get him to talk about Daniel, followed by the scene on the cargo ship where Sam complains to Teal'c about the 'way of the warrior crap'. The most striking representation of this I think is actually in that cargo ship scene, as in this screencap:


            Look at that blocking - the view of Jack far in the background behind Sam, how they've got their backs to one another and are almost as far apart as they can be in the space, yet are still mirroring each other in pose and demeanor. The console and the doorway to the hold even create a physical barrier between them. And then the camera pans round to reveal Teal'c and we have the scene where Sam gets to vent her frustration at Jack's seeming lack of emotion, all the while we as the viewers have just been shown how Jack is sitting in the back, cleaning his gun, obviously hurting, and Teal'c gets to be the bridge, almost, with what he says, understanding both Sam and Jack's points of view. However it isn't enough to heal the rift between Sam and Jack, as when Jack comes back through to the front, Sam keeps her back resolutely turned and doesn't look at him, and completely ignores his attempts at humour/sarcasm. And of course we as the audience can see this as a cover for his pain - you can feel the effort he is making, similar to what we see from him time and time again when Jack is upset or threatened. It isn't until SG1 are on the planet with Heimdall, and running around the mothership that the tension between Sam and Jack disappears. In this way, it's representative of their relationship as a whole up to and at this point - awkwardness between them whenever there's a possibility they might have to confront and talk about feelings, but business as usual when they've got a planet to save/Goa'uld to defeat/daring rescue to pull off. And they're generally both as bad as each other, so why does Sam try and push Jack to talk to her in the scene in the corridor? I think it's purely a result of Daniel having died - Sam does talk about emotional stuff far more freely than Jack in general, but it would be Daniel that she would talk to, and he's not there. So she tries Jack, even though she knows she's not going to get anywhere - I think Sam's rueful look at the end of that scene in the corridor shows that she understands perfectly why Jack was so brusque with her and isn't personally insulted by it, even if she's disappointed, and I think it's that that she then takes out on Teal'c on the cargo ship. And why is Jack so completely unwilling to deal with Sam on an emotional level here, given that he has and will do so at other points, such as Point of View (although with much awkwardness) and Heroes after Janet's death? (I'm not including Threads, as that's a totally different situation ) Perhaps it's the fact that she ambushes him in the corridor, rather than coming to him somewhere more private, perhaps Jack's uncomfortable with his knowledge of the fact that ascending was Daniel's choice and doesn't really want to examine his feelings there too deeply, perhaps it's just where they're at with their relationship in general and the whole S5 thing where they're desperately trying to move on and pretend that all the stuff that happened in S4 never happened.

            Whew, OK, almost done. Just two little more shippy things I noticed to end this review:

            - The scene where Heimdall is explaining how the Asgard reproduce, and Sam is translating. Quite aside from being generally amusing, I love how Jack's eyes slide towards Sam, almost shiftily, right after he says 'This I understand', on hearing that the Asgard don't like to talk about the fact they have not had sex for a thousand years.

            - And a great example of mirroring in the final scene in the briefing room
            Last edited by josiane; July 9, 2010, 01:31 PM. Reason: Forgot the synppsis!
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            Artwork for All | Sig & avi by JadedWraith

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              Fantastic review Josi!

              I'm just going to pick up and run with this, since it reflects what I was previously saying and I promised to expand upon it:


              ... so why does Sam try and push Jack to talk to her in the scene in the corridor? I think it's purely a result of Daniel having died - Sam does talk about emotional stuff far more freely than Jack in general, but it would be Daniel that she would talk to, and he's not there. So she tries Jack, even though she knows she's not going to get anywhere - I think Sam's rueful look at the end of that scene in the corridor shows that she understands perfectly why Jack was so brusque with her and isn't personally insulted by it, even if she's disappointed...
              Yes, in that I agree, although I do think, yes, she is slightly disappointed and, perhaps was hoping he might want to at least discuss it in some way. But key to this I think Jack's actions here do dictate how Sam sees their relationship for the next couple of seasons. He's, effectively, pushing her away emotionally. There's never a point from now on, right up until Heroes when she really allows him to see her feelings. For him it's just his (very guy-like) way of dealing with a difficult emotional matter - exacerbated by the fact that Daniel's not really dead but not really... well what?
              For Sam it must have been like a slap in the face... "I don't want to talk about feelings with you." She took that as face value and it's no surprise she ended up thinking he no longer cared for her in that way.
              I also think Jack kind of realised by the end of the episode that, perhaps, all Sam wanted to do was remember Daniel and that, actually, there's nothing wrong with that. They have a kind of mini reconciliation at the end with Jack, Sam and Teal'c all going out for dinner (and how many times do they all socialise together in the series? Not often). I think Jack's casual invite and Sam's easy acceptance is their way of dealing with that - of going back to being friends without that tension of conflicting feelings about Daniel's loss.



              And why is Jack so completely unwilling to deal with Sam on an emotional level here, given that he has and will do so at other points, such as Point of View (although with much awkwardness) and Heroes after Janet's death? (I'm not including Threads, as that's a totally different situation ) Perhaps it's the fact that she ambushes him in the corridor, rather than coming to him somewhere more private, perhaps Jack's uncomfortable with his knowledge of the fact that ascending was Daniel's choice and doesn't really want to examine his feelings there too deeply, perhaps it's just where they're at with their relationship in general and the whole S5 thing where they're desperately trying to move on and pretend that all the stuff that happened in S4 never happened.
              I think it's a bit of all of the above really. I'm glad you mentioned Point Of View though because the difference in his willingness to discuss emotional stuff there to here is striking. I know it's a slightly different situation but I think it's not the situation that's the issue but the person and the awareness about what that person might mean to him. I also think there's an element of Jack knowing that, while she wanted to talk about Daniel, any discussion about emotions is very dangerous territory for them. it's entirely possible that they might have sat down, started discussing Daniel and then the conversation turns around to things they really can't talk about without it completely changing the game. Jack's already "lost" Daniel and he's not going to risk "losing" Sam in a professional capacity (which, in his mind was the only capacity he could have her in his life) just because they end up in a conversation that leads directly towards digging up the feelings they have carefully buried over the past year or so.


              As I said before in a previous post. I find that whole scene a fascinating snapshot of their relationship as a whole, and I think it works towards directing the course it took for the next few seasons.



              On the episode in general, yes, I find the ending slightly anticlimatic. I think it's because it feels unfinished but yet, not a cliffhanger as such.
              Having said that, the very end scene is one I completely adore and fangirl Martin Wood over the end of the earth and back. Just that lovely long shot from the elevator and then ending in a more-than-360 degree pan round of them... just so beautifully composed. You can see the genesis of that amazing opening scene from Continuum being perfected right here.
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                Originally posted by Petra View Post
                I know where are you coming from on this. Anti-S/J metas are usually written by slashers so lately I've been reading a lot of slashers' comments and I certainly feel like we've been watching completely different show. I'm simply astounded by what moments some people see as J/D love. It's all in the interpretation, I guess.
                For me, it's not necessarily different interpretations of various scenes but how they all get synthesized together. I tend to watch shows in a rather analytical way, I look at all the information presented to me mostly at face value and then try to link them together in various themes/motifs/arcs etc. The important thing, IMO, is to let that data shape your analysis of the show in as unbiased way as possible and not exclude data points that don't fit with preconceived biases/opinions/desires.

                So when it comes to shipping (or slash which is really the same thing just different people), I often get the impression that a lot of people approach the show with the desire for two particular characters to get together and then pick and choose amongst the data to support that opinion. I don't mean any of you guys here, the discussions on this thread show you all take a very comprehensive view on the show and S/J's place within it. But for example I've seen some people who approached the show looking for a slash pairing and so pick out the moments that support that and tend to be dismissive of moments that contradict it. I've seen the same for other pairings including S/J, though again not on this thread.

                I see S/J ship because the majority of the data I got from the show supported it compared to other ships or no ship at all, whether I like or dislike it is very different from recognizing its existence. S/J just happens to be the only Stargate ship that I think was done well and truly enjoy (aside from the AU Sam/Teal'c from Unending. ).

                Spoilered for OT rant about sexism towards Sam (and female characters in general)


                Originally posted by Petra View Post
                Speaking only for myself, I don't think you've done anything you'd have to apologise for.
                Originally posted by hedwig View Post
                No need to feel like a guest. Everybody here is family. It's just that everybody either agrees or has varying degrees of disagreement about the subjects talked about.
                Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                I like getting your point of view. I don't think you've ever written anything you need to apologize for. And even among shippers we don't always agree. I can see shippiness in some scenes where others can't and vice versa. That's what makes this thread fun for me. And I'd say the more the merrier, but that's a cliche and you know how I feel about cliches--no, you know how Jack feels about cliches. *shrugs*
                Thanks guys. I say 'guest' more as a non-shipper on a ship thread, you guys have this lovely, cozy cabin here and I don't want to do anything silly like track mud into the den or spill coffee on the sofa. That said you've all been so nice and welcoming that most of the time I feel right at home, so thank you again.

                Originally posted by Nynaeve506 View Post
                I don't feel defensive at all from what you've said - my touchiness, I completely admit, is fully in my own head LOL. It's sort of like not standing too close to a naked man. You don't want anyone else to think you're crazy even though you kinda like the crazy naked man. Weird example, I know.

                I would agree that at the point of "Solitudes" for example, that there wasn't any romantic feelings - Jack was still incredibly hooked on Sara and Sam was fresh on their command. I'm not sure that there's even much we would disagree on since I tend to think the best romantic relationships are basically friendship with some sizzle and spice added in. It's a very natural thing for male and female friendships to end up with that very intense chemistry. I don't think their relationship started with that sizzle, although I think there are moments where Jack gives Sam that boyish grin and it's like turning the burner on a little bit higher. It's not romantic, it's just friendship with a little cayenne pepper. Add some oregano, and other spices and you've got a great spaghetti sauce... um... wait we weren't talking about food? :: looks shifty eyed ::
                Mmmm, now you're making me hungry. That's a neat analogy, just watch out if they ever get to Indian food.

                Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                I haven't decided exactly how I feel about Solitudes yet. I'm still thinking and taking in everyone else's opinion. I do believe there was an attraction between the two very early on, even if that wasn't manifest in romantic feelings per se. Maybe that's the spice Nynaeve was talking about.
                My take on Solitudes is that that was when Sam and Jack's friendship truly solidified. They'd been moving in that direction since the beginning of S1, but I think that ordeal of relying solely on each other for survival, where they saw the best and worst of each other, and then finally almost dying together formed a bond of trust between them that was never broken.

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                  Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                  Yes, in that I agree, although I do think, yes, she is slightly disappointed and, perhaps was hoping he might want to at least discuss it in some way. But key to this I think Jack's actions here do dictate how Sam sees their relationship for the next couple of seasons. He's, effectively, pushing her away emotionally. There's never a point from now on, right up until Heroes when she really allows him to see her feelings. For him it's just his (very guy-like) way of dealing with a difficult emotional matter - exacerbated by the fact that Daniel's not really dead but not really... well what?
                  For Sam it must have been like a slap in the face... "I don't want to talk about feelings with you." She took that as face value and it's no surprise she ended up thinking he no longer cared for her in that way.
                  I also think Jack kind of realised by the end of the episode that, perhaps, all Sam wanted to do was remember Daniel and that, actually, there's nothing wrong with that. They have a kind of mini reconciliation at the end with Jack, Sam and Teal'c all going out for dinner (and how many times do they all socialise together in the series? Not often). I think Jack's casual invite and Sam's easy acceptance is their way of dealing with that - of going back to being friends without that tension of conflicting feelings about Daniel's loss.





                  I think it's a bit of all of the above really. I'm glad you mentioned Point Of View though because the difference in his willingness to discuss emotional stuff there to here is striking. I know it's a slightly different situation but I think it's not the situation that's the issue but the person and the awareness about what that person might mean to him. I also think there's an element of Jack knowing that, while she wanted to talk about Daniel, any discussion about emotions is very dangerous territory for them. it's entirely possible that they might have sat down, started discussing Daniel and then the conversation turns around to things they really can't talk about without it completely changing the game. Jack's already "lost" Daniel and he's not going to risk "losing" Sam in a professional capacity (which, in his mind was the only capacity he could have her in his life) just because they end up in a conversation that leads directly towards digging up the feelings they have carefully buried over the past year or so.


                  As I said before in a previous post. I find that whole scene a fascinating snapshot of their relationship as a whole, and I think it works towards directing the course it took for the next few seasons.
                  Great expansion there! In that sense it could be a kind of corollary of the scene back in Ascension where Jack and Teal'c turn up on Sam's doorstep and she pushes them away. We discussed then how Jack took that as evidence of Sam moving on from him when really she was just rather desperate to get him out of there because of Orlin. And so here, Jack is desperate not to talk to Sam about what happened, for all the reasons we've mentioned, but Sam takes that as a not wanting to discuss feelings completely ever. You're right that it is a long time until she does ever try again, not until S7, and all the times that she does after that are after her 'trial run' in Grace. I still think though that her expression as she turns away from Jack and goes to head back down the corridor gives away that she does understand Jack's reluctance to talk to her - she just takes it with wider implications than just the Daniel situation.

                  Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                  For me, it's not necessarily different interpretations of various scenes but how they all get synthesized together. I tend to watch shows in a rather analytical way, I look at all the information presented to me mostly at face value and then try to link them together in various themes/motifs/arcs etc. The important thing, IMO, is to let that data shape your analysis of the show in as unbiased way as possible and not exclude data points that don't fit with preconceived biases/opinions/desires.

                  So when it comes to shipping (or slash which is really the same thing just different people), I often get the impression that a lot of people approach the show with the desire for two particular characters to get together and then pick and choose amongst the data to support that opinion. I don't mean any of you guys here, the discussions on this thread show you all take a very comprehensive view on the show and S/J's place within it. But for example I've seen some people who approached the show looking for a slash pairing and so pick out the moments that support that and tend to be dismissive of moments that contradict it. I've seen the same for other pairings including S/J, though again not on this thread.

                  I see S/J ship because the majority of the data I got from the show supported it compared to other ships or no ship at all, whether I like or dislike it is very different from recognizing its existence. S/J just happens to be the only Stargate ship that I think was done well and truly enjoy (aside from the AU Sam/Teal'c from Unending. ).
                  Jumping in here although I still haven't read back through all the discussion beforehand, but I just want to say this is a great point and I agree completely. I ship a lot, but very selectively, and only ever 'canon' ships, ie, ones where I see it developing genuinely from their interactions and what happens on screen, like S/J. I personally also don't get the kind of shipping (and slashing) that comes from just wanting two characters to get together regardless and then picking and choosing evidence to support it. For me, a ship should be part of the characters and part of their development, and that's why I love S/J because, as we are really showing with this rewatch, the development of their relationship is a subtle, constant, and important part of their development as characters.
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                    Originally posted by josiane View Post
                    Jumping in here although I still haven't read back through all the discussion beforehand, but I just want to say this is a great point and I agree completely. I ship a lot, but very selectively, and only ever 'canon' ships, ie, ones where I see it developing genuinely from their interactions and what happens on screen, like S/J. I personally also don't get the kind of shipping (and slashing) that comes from just wanting two characters to get together regardless and then picking and choosing evidence to support it. For me, a ship should be part of the characters and part of their development, and that's why I love S/J because, as we are really showing with this rewatch, the development of their relationship is a subtle, constant, and important part of their development as characters.
                    I agree with you here and with what you said before. I go with the flow for ships in canon - I think this is why it's so incredibly frustrating when I feel like the writers have led the audience to see chemistry between two characters (*cough*Janeway/Chakotay*cough*), puts them in very romantic settings (*cough*NewEarthcandelitdinners*cough*) and then just smack you with a *haha we gotcha* (*cough*Chakotay/Seven*cough*).

                    For the longest time I just couldn't bear to feel kindship towards any ship because I was so utterly disgusted. When my husband showed me SG-1 I actually went out and googled to see how the rest of the relationship played out (that was in 2006) - that's how I ended up here!

                    I'm of the opinion that Sam/Jack are one of fiction's best love stories. Romeo and Juliet had nothing on them and are overrated anyway. Two excellent actors paired with strong writing...

                    It's just a crying shame people ignore sci-fi >.<

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                      I'm just running in for a sec and hopefully I'll have time to join the discussion more fully later on today. But I wanted to thank Josi for the screen cap. I had never noticed Jack in the background before. That, and your analysis of it has added tremendously to how I view that scene. Great job!

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                        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                        Thanks guys. I say 'guest' more as a non-shipper on a ship thread, you guys have this lovely, cozy cabin here and I don't want to do anything silly like track mud into the den or spill coffee on the sofa. That said you've all been so nice and welcoming that most of the time I feel right at home, so thank you again.
                        Mud and spills and water (you know ... water ballons and the like) can always be cleaned up. What fun would a spic-n-span, 100% tidy and clean cabin be if we couldn't mess it up now and then?

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                          Okay, I know I promised not to go back to my S/J Ship Manifest but I've just found out that the antis here on GW took offence to what I wrote. Apparently they assumed I was talking about them. Anyway I went over my posts and noted that I forgot to add (I thought I did ) that the anti-S/J Metas I'd been reading prior to writing my response to them have nothing to do with GW. Both are posted on LJs. One was written by a slasher and the second one by a non-shipper with S/D leanings but in both cases discussing them was limited only to slashers and a few D/V shippers and that's who I meant writing my anti-arguments. Just to clarify.

                          Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                          Thanks guys. I say 'guest' more as a non-shipper on a ship thread, you guys have this lovely, cozy cabin here and I don't want to do anything silly like track mud into the den or spill coffee on the sofa. That said you've all been so nice and welcoming that most of the time I feel right at home, so thank you again.
                          Given our numbers, I'd say it's a residence. Or a magical cabin with far more space than it looks like it has.

                          My take on Solitudes is that that was when Sam and Jack's friendship truly solidified. They'd been moving in that direction since the beginning of S1, but I think that ordeal of relying solely on each other for survival, where they saw the best and worst of each other, and then finally almost dying together formed a bond of trust between them that was never broken.
                          Nicely put. I kinda see it as the moment when Sam ultimately proved herself to Jack and they both gained each other's unwavering trust.

                          Revelations

                          I apologise but because of this whole mess with the antis (caused by me trying to put it all behind me. Oh irony ) I don't feel like offering my shippy perspective tonight.

                          General comments:

                          I love Revelations. It's in my Top 3 episodes of the season (Red Sky, The Warrior, Revelations). I love how they don't just forget Daniel's death, as it often happens in episodic tv, but mourn him all the time. I love Sam's conversation with Hammond at the beginning and later with Teal'c. I love that Osiris is back and that she's truly dangerous, I love Thor and Heimdall (how I wish that Heimdall had been brought back at some point) and Jack's interactions with them both and I'm a sucker for Goa'uld motherships. I love that Sam's angry with Jack and that Teal'c wisely stays out of it, while seemingly understanding and supporting both his friends. And I love how at the end they are all mature enough to put it behind them, accept each other's choices of how to deal with grief and move on to celebrating - together - Daniel's life and what he meant to them. And had it been indeed the end of the series, I think I would have been happy because all in all, it ends on the hopeful note.
                          There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                          awesome sig by Josiane

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                            Revelations

                            Generally

                            I too like Josi find this somewhat of an anti-climax to S5. I think part of that is Meridian is so powerful as an episode that it is difficult to conceptualise that it isn't the end of the season. I think even on first viewing I remember thinking 'there's another episode??'

                            That said, I do think they were right to deal with the fallout of Daniel's death. It helped position the universe for the beginning of S6 (which is also when they moved networks I seem to remember).

                            Sam and Jack

                            Although the episode isn't "shippy" as in romantic, I think as others have said that the events of Daniel's death impact their relationship, although I would argue that I don't necessarily agree that it tells Sam not to talk to Jack about her feelings because Sam does show Jack her grief over Janet and relief at his survival which I think contradicts that idea. Yes, she does it stumbling all over the place and she finds it difficult but she does it. For me, I think Daniel's death and her romantic feelings for Jack are two seperate situations in Sam's mind and heart.

                            Here, the cracks that have been hinted at Meridian, effectively open like a chasm between them. And I think a large part of that is that they are coming at the loss of Daniel from two very different places.

                            Jack got to say goodbye to Daniel, was made by Daniel to be part of the decision for Daniel to Ascend. I think Jack feels a responsibility in that decision and in the impact it has on the other people he cares about namely Sam and Teal'c. I also think Jack is angry at Daniel for his decision and leaving. You don't leave people behind and while I think Jack knows at this particular point in time it's maybe the best decision Daniel could make for Daniel, I think he's still fundamentally hurt at the decision. Moreover, Jack is having to deal with his own feelings of loss which are no doubt bringing back memories of losing Charlie and having to deal with that. All of which puts him very clearly in a position of: Daniel's gone but we have to get on with it. Something which is demonstrated in his decision to take the Asgard mission.

                            Sam, on the other hand, had just faced up to the fact that she was going to lose Daniel, had just grabbed onto the hope with the arrival of her father that Daniel was going to be saved, and then she loses him anyway to the glowy club. Despite saying a goodbye to him of sorts, I think Sam feels the lack of a goodbye to a Daniel who was going to Ascend rather than die. So to her it feels like he chose to die; chose to leave them. And I think some of her is also angry at Daniel but Daniel isn't there to be mad at (Jack's a handy substitute). Plus she has to deal with the fact for all intents and purposes he's gone - she's lost her friend, lost SG1 in its full formation, and all of that devastates her to the point where her usual coping strategy of work doesn't, um, work. She wants time to adjust to mourn Daniel; to come to terms with the change. Something I think is demonstrated very well in the scene with Hammond.

                            Of course, the scene in the corridor (great banner!) really highlights these two opposing positions further. Sam wants time to grieve and for them to deal with it as a team; Jack just wants to get on with it and deal with it alone. And while I think Sam understands to some extent, I think she's hurt by his dismissal.

                            The scene on the cargo ship as Josi says really emphasises the differing viewpoints well. Sam's even mad at Teal'c when he tries to placate her and tries to play compromise-man rather than simply comforting her and empathising with her. And I can't help thinking that for Sam some of that male inability to understand her (I don't want explanations or suggestions on how to fix it, I just want someone to say they understand how I feel) must bring back memories of her mother's death because even with the flashback we see in JM, I don't think Jacob really knew how to deal with Sam's grief (perhaps was also trying to come to terms with his own) and Mark was busy being angry with Jacob which may have left Sam feeling very alone.

                            Of course, they do move into professional mode. There is that lovely moment on the ship when Jack walks through holographic Sam and he so looks at her butt afterwards. Anyway...I do think part of Jack's insistence on going after Thor is to save *someone* in the wake of not being able to save Daniel. And he almost loses Sam in the decision because she stays so long in the lab that Osiris finds her (which also allows her to vent about Daniel's death some more). It's something that's really not emphasised a lot in the episode (Jack even doesn't react that much when Sam is beamed back to the cargo ship and slumps against Teal'c) but I think something that would give Jack food for thought on the way home.

                            In some ways, I think the mission provides them both with the ability to see the other's view: Sam knows that they saved Thor and that was a good thing so maybe them taking the mission wasn't a bad thing and it showed that even without Daniel they could still be a team. Jack, on the other hand, realises that they made it through by the skin of their teeth and maybe it wasn't the right time to go on a mission despite the outcome.

                            So by the time they get to the elevator, I think both of them are in a place of reconciliation where both of them have more appreciation of the other's position and are more willing to reach out.

                            Just as a comment, I hate the way that scene was written and shot because the whole Jack and Teal'c meet Sam at the elevator and that's when Jack invites her to join *them*, makes it seem like she's invited as an afterthought rather than this is a reconciliation of sorts.

                            Anyways, I tend to think Daniel's death does impact their relationship in that Jack withdraws from Sam for a time and she's hurt by that. But I would rather stress that I think the important thing is that they come through it.

                            For me, in some respects by the time we get to the opening of S6, there are signs that Jack is shifting further in his personal interactions with Sam to friend-space and I think the reconciliation we never see has something to do with that - because I think he learned in that reconciliation is what she needed is the hug that he gives her in Heroes: just comfort and a friend to hold onto. Unfortunately, the more Jack attempts to be a "friend" to her, the more Sam believes he feels nothing more than friendship and cue her confusion by Grace...

                            I'm babbling now so I'll stop...
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                              Originally posted by Petra View Post
                              Given our numbers, I'd say it's a residence. Or a magical cabin with far more space than it looks like it has.
                              Oooo, it's like a cross between the TARDIS and Jack's cabin!

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                                Originally posted by Petra View Post
                                Given our numbers, I'd say it's a residence. Or a magical cabin with far more space than it looks like it has.
                                Like in one of the Harry Potter movies, when the Weasley's and Harry walk into a tent and find a spacious big living space with several rooms in it.

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