Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

I guess this is one of the few times I would disagree with you.

Hey, it was bound to happen sometime At least it's on a very minor issue..and we still agree on the important ones

That scene never said to me she was telling Daniel she loved him in a romantic way. It said to me that she was telling a good friend how much she cared about him and didn't want him to die. And that she shouldn't have waited to tell him. It's like in real life, we don't often tell friends or family how much we love and care for them, or appreciate them being in our lives. It usually comes when the other person is dying and we have little time left to tell them just how much we cared about them, and how much they meant to us. Sure, she loved Daniel, but not in a romantic, shippy way. Just like she loved Teal'c (I'm sure) in the same way. So, ... I never saw anything shippy between S/D in that scene.

Yeah, I get what you and Nynaeve are saying and as I mentioned I can talk myself into seeing it that way (the way it was supposed to be ), it's just not how the scene reads to me when I'm watching it.

And I don't see is as shippy per se, because I'm totally unable to see any S/D ship (as you well know) but..how to explain it? I see "Meridian" as a sort of a gift to the fans: Daniel going out in the blaze of glory, focus on the characters and their interactions - all fans I know love it, all casual viewers I know are kinda bored by it...and I think TPTB tried to please as many fans as they could at the time so they inserted a nod towards S/D shippers. Does what I'm saying make sense?

And anyway it's a minor thing, I don't want to start a war or something...

Sadly, I've had that happen once or twice in my life, where a good friend died and I never got the chance to tell them how much they meant to me.

*hugs*

On a completely different note, I'd like to ask all posters/lurkers: do you mind if I hijack the thread for a moment? Having read a few metas on why S/J doesn't work for some people I kinda wrote why does it work for me and I wanted to put it in my sig, so that I wouldn't get involved into ship debates in the future (my plan is to just direct people to this essay). However it's too long for my sig so I need some place to post it and then to link to it and I don't know where else I could do it.

It will be spoilered and all and shouldn't disrupt our Meridian discussion. If someone wants it removed just give me a shout.

ETA:

I disagree. I don't think Sam was caught up in the science or trying to run away from facing Daniel's death. I think she and Jack were both doing the same thing, they were searching for meaning in Daniel's death, rather than seeking escape. Jack wants his name cleared because he knows that, as passionate as Daniel is about doing the right thing, he would never cause the death of several others to make his point. I'm sure Jack believed that Daniel was probably acting heroically and in protection of others and that's how he wants his friend to be remembered. Sam wants the naquadriah because she knows how valuable it could be to their work, but it also means that something good would come out of going to that planet and losing Daniel.

I don't think your opinion and Rachel's opinion are mutualy exclusive because I agree with you both.

[Rachel500]

I disagree. I don't think Sam was caught up in the science or trying to run away from facing Daniel's death. I think she and Jack were both doing the same thing, they were searching for meaning in Daniel's death, rather than seeking escape. Jack wants his name cleared because he knows that, as passionate as Daniel is about doing the right thing, he would never cause the death of several others to make his point. I'm sure Jack believed that Daniel was probably acting heroically and in protection of others and that's how he wants his friend to be remembered. Sam wants the naquadriah because she knows how valuable it could be to their work, but it also means that something good would come out of going to that planet and losing Daniel.
<snipped>.

Firstly, hugs for your OT.

Secondly, I agree with you a little in that I would concede part of their motivations are about Daniel - in trying to find meaning in what has happened.

But I think for me the larger part is in their trying to escape from that reality through focusing on something else - something else of import, something that provides meaning to what has happened yes, but something that isn't watching a friend die.

To me that we don't see Sam in particular with Daniel for a long while underscores that - and even when we do see her initially, she's removed herself from the immediate vicinity and is in the observation room.

EDIT: As Petra has just said, I don't think the views are mutually exclusive either but differing opinions is what makes life interesting.

[Rachel500]

I also meant to reply to Petra's point on the Sam and Daniel goodbye scene...

I don't find it shippy as many others don't because I would agree the context of the discussion is to provide a counterpoint to Daniel's belief he hasn't made a difference and Sam's belief that he has; and added to the fact that as I don't see Sam and Daniel that way, I view her words as words of friendship - that she's realised that she's never told him how important he is to her, the effect he's had on her as an individual...

However, I also agree with Petra in that I think the phrasing of "why do we always leave it..I hoped you knew" is left ambiguous and is a production nod towards those who might have wanted a Sam/Daniel ship. I would be annoyed about it but given that its the only moment in the show where there was that allusion is made seriously (as opposed to the jokey allusion in Moebius), and it is later retracted immediately when Daniel returns and asks in Fallen if there was ever anything between them and Sam replies unequivocally that they're just good friends.

[Petra]

Spoiler:

Instead of repeating myself in various threads, I decided to write down my thoughts and have them all in one place.

JACK, AS I SEE HIM ONSCREEN

During his 8 years on the show Jack undergoes great change. When we meet him in CotG he’s in the process of slowly re-building his life, but he’s also a disrespectful and cynical recluse. The first Abydos mission and Daniel and Skaara in particular made him realize that suicide isn’t an answer to his problems. Still, he’s unable to reconcile with his wife, despite still being in love with her and chooses to withdraw from his family, friends and work preferring solitude. Return to active duty changes all that.

Stargate gives him opportunity to say goodbye to his son and deal with the trauma his death caused (Cold Lazarus), to learn to appreciate life once more (Brief Candle), to make new friends (Daniel, Teal’c, Sam, Hammond, Janet) who with time will become the closest thing he has to a family and to find a new goal in his life – defending Earth, fighting the Goa’uld and rescuing people who helped him earlier. It also offers the chance to do it in a more moral, “clean” way than how he used to operate in Special Forces which seems to be very important to him.

He struggles. He divorces Sara sometime in season 1 but it takes him a while to get over her – he enters his first serious relationship whole 2 years later. Meanwhile gen Hammond, and to lesser degree Jacob, becomes a father figure for him, he starts seeing/treating Teal’c like his older brother/best friend and Daniel as a younger brother/best friend, he grows close to many a child (Cassie, Ree’tou Charlie, Merrin) and realizes that there’s something between him and Carter. The type of women he’s attracted to changes a little. At first he seems to get involved with strong, resilient and self-confident, but ultimately very homey and family oriented women, full of warmth and patience and familiar with only civilian parts of him. (Sara, Khyntia, Laira) Later on he gravitates towards strong, resilient and self-confident women who are more career-oriented, know him both privately and professionally, have their own issues but also understand his. (Kerry, Sam).

Personally I attribute it to his experiences as SG-1 leader. With each season Jack’s responsibilities and importance seem to increase (from the base 2IC in season 1 to proposed CO of his own off-world base in season 3 to becoming a more political player in relation to NID/Kinsey in seasons 4-7 to being promoted and taking over for Hammond) and he survives unimaginable terrors that must scar him for life (Netu, Baal, the Replicators) and IMO he starts looking for someone who’ll *get* him: his issues, his dark moods, how his mind works in any situation; someone whom he won’t have to shelter from parts of his own personality and to whom he won’t have to explain why this particular thing set him off. Someone who knows him at his best and at his worst.

SAM, AS I SEE HER ONSCREEN

Sam changes as much as Jack does. When we meet her in CotG she’s all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, fairly innocent (not as much as Daniel though), eager to explore the universe and focused on her career. While men’s attention apparently pleases her (Narim) she’s not actively looking for a guy and seems indifferent about romance (Lt Simmons). While I think she might have had a little hero-worship going on when she first met Jack I also think she got over it very quickly – actually I don’t see anything of the sort post-CotG. I do see however her trying to prove herself to him, until she finally does in Solitudes. IMO it doesn’t have anything to do with her thinking of him as a hero but rather with thinking of him as an excellent officer she has much to learn from and who she wants to treat her seriously. Again, it’s not connected to Jack per se, but with Sam’s experiences in military.

In all likelihood before she joined the SGC she’d had to struggle against prejudices as both a woman (very beautiful one to that) and a general’s daughter. When we meet her in CotG she’s used to being treated unfairly and to fighting hard for her position; assumption that her male CO and teammates don’t accept her because of her sex comes naturally to her. So season 1 shows her slowly learning that SG-1 and Jack aren’t like that and her skills are the only thing that matters. By season 2 she’s completely at ease with her place on the team, by season 3 she’s friends with Jack and by season 5 she’s so self-assured and confident in her abilities and her teammates’ trust in her that she doesn’t even bat an eye at remarks about her sex.

A lot changes in her personal life too. Prior to events of Secrets/The Tok’ra she always tried to impress her father, a general who’d wanted son instead of daughter (although this piece of canon is self-contradictory because it implies that Sam’s older than Mark, while events of Seth/JM/TDYK suggest that Mark’s older than her), who due to his work had been an absent father and who’d distanced himself even more after his wife’s death and fallout with his son. And just like Stargate gave Jack a reason to put himself together after his son’s death it gave Sam a chance to mend fences with her family and not only make her father proud but also to actually get to know him better and slowly create a wonderful father/daughter relationship based on love, honesty, trust, respect and open affection.

SG-1 becomes her family. Teal’c turns out to be her most loyal friend, Daniel’s like her twin brother, Janet seems to be her first real female friend and she realizes there’s something between her and Jack. She’s still very much focused on her career although she tries dating other guys of various types only to find they can’t give her what she wants and needs.

THEIR RELATIONSHIP AS I SAW IT ONSCREEN

There’s no denying that when they first meet they are on a very unequal footing. Jack’s an experienced, charismatic CO, Sam’s his subordinate with a case of hero-worship and a big chip on her shoulder. But that’s ok because I’ve never thought they fell in love at first sight As I mentioned hero-worship pretty much dissolves into mutual respect by the end of the pilot and Sam’s sex-related issues gradually disappear over the course of the season. There’s some flirting and teasing in Emancipation and Broca Divide but ultimately right from The Enemy Within Jack and Sam settle into comfortable mentor/student relationship, that post-Solitudes slowly turns into friendship of equals. Yes, he coaches her in military tactics and leadership (and let’s not forget that she fought in the First Gulf War, so she’s not as inexperienced as fanon often portrays her ), which I think will always continue (Sam would be a fool not to take advantage of the possibility to pick his brain when she can) but she in turn coaches him in science (in AMOT it’s him coming to her asking to explain wormhole theory because he wants to know, in Chimera he’s showing off his knowledge of quarks) and diplomacy (season 6 anyone?).

So, season 1 has them gaining each other’s trust and respect, season 2 has them becoming friends. They talk about their personal lives (in Tok’Ra Jack knows about Jacob’s cancer for example and it isn’t the sort of thing you tell your CO but your friend), pick up on each other emotions (in Serpent’s Song and Spirits it’s Sam noticing how pissed off Jack is and he vents on her; he’s the only one noticing her Jolinar flashbacks in SS), tease and complement each other. This continues in season 3, although it’s the time when both start to contemplate the idea of something more between them, albeit IMO in Jack’s case in a “there’s no way she’s interested in me” way post-POV and in Sam’s case more in a “it’s just a crush” way post-100 days. However the more time they spend together the more comfortable they become and their feelings intensify – just look at how flirty and relaxed they are around each other in Small Victories. And then comes Divide & Conquer and they are forced to admit that it’s something more than simple attraction and that it’s reciprocated. They seem to be pretty happy for most of season 4. Beneath the Surface confirms that they seem to gravitate towards each other no matter what and they get together (I’m one of those folks who believe their relationship was more intimate than shown on-screen, just like it was in the original scenario before TPTB decided they don’t want to piss off the antis even more) and even though they have to give it up things are going well until the beginning of season 5 when Jack decides to pull back, after nearly losing Daniel in The Light, killing Sam in Entity and Teal’c’s brainwashing takes its toll on him and he retreats emotionally trying to protect himself and possibly the rest of the team.

Sam and Jack settle back into simple friendship and professional relationship. Jack’s plan fails though. Sam distances herself from him, soaking up attention from other guys (Orlin, Joe Faxon) and mourning Jolinar’s love – Martouf, and Narim. Teal’c nearly leaves SG-1 and Daniel, feeling lost and frustrated decides to leave for real. His ascension puts SG-1 through some rough times, but ultimately they come out of this stronger. Teal’c becomes a confidant for both Sam and Jack, who start to get closer again. Playfulness and flirting reappears, their working relationship changes to that of 2 equals rather than CO&2IC and then suddenly Daniel returns and takes up all their attention. His return prompts Sam to consider her own life which culminates in her hallucinations in Grace. Tired of waiting she convinces herself that the thing with Jack was never real and decides to try to have a normal life with another guy, and while she’s having fun and doing her best to move on she can’t quite forget about Jack. He, in the meantime, respecting her choice accepts promotion and after convincing himself Sam’s happy tries to move on too. Ultimately neither of their relationships work out and at the end of season 8 they are both single again. Except this time the war ended and they are free to move out of the direct chain of command and start dating each other, which they do, as DEM and LITS imply.

[Petra]

Spoiler:

THEIR COMPATIBILITY

Contrary to fanon which for some reason likes to pair up characters who are each other’s opposites, Sam and Jack are the most compatible pair out of all couples ever shown on SG-1. Of course chemistry is in the eye of the beholder, so I won’t get into that, but it’s easy to see how much they have in common.

First of all, military rules their lives. It creates a bond that no one else on the team – not Daniel, not Jonas, not even Teal’c – can understand and that is downright impossible to understand for someone outside of the military. Look at how perplexed Martouf, Narim, McKay, Pete and agent Barret are by Sam’s loyalty to military rules, her unwavering trust and always putting her team first, even when she tries to explain it to them. According to Cold Lazarus Sara had issues with Jack’s military bravado, Khyntia didn’t understand it at all, Laira tried to get rid of/ignore that side of him and Kerry clearly stated he had issues. Sam and Jack, otoh, just *get* each other. They think alike and they know it. They share beliefs and values, they abide by the same set of rules, their instincts are the same, they understand each other’s choices. That’s a hugely important thing in any relationship.

Out of all SG-1 members they share the most interests off-duty. They both spend time with Cassie (Rite of Passage heavily implies that more than Daniel and Teal’c), they both enjoy chess, old movies and apparently fishing (when Sam finally *can* go she does so immediately, seems to enjoy herself and says “This is great”). They share an interest in astronomy, bikes and flying (not to mention blowing stuff up ). They are both adrenaline junkies (he loves parachuting and bikes, she loves speeding on her bike and takes part in races). They have the same sense of humour – Sam’s the one smiling/laughing at his jokes when Teal’c’s raising his eyebrow and Daniel’s frowning or rolling his eyes. And then there’s her own snark. They both enjoy meetings with their friends to watch Simpsons consuming pizza and beer. While they both like going out from time to time (dancing in Chimera, hockey matches in Revelations/The Other Guys) they also likeand value their time alone : Jack – fishing, Sam – tinkering with her bike and science projects (but Jack apparently likes to fix stuff too – he was the one fixing hippie!bus in 1969).

What’s important and often ignored, they both share unique experience of being host to a Tok’ra and a Goa’uld. Again, no one else on the show can understand what they’ve been through.

SAM AND JACK TOGETHER AS I SEE IT; HISTORY AND PERSONALITIES

They are both masters of repressing and hiding their feelings, but when pushed both can explode (remember Sam yelling at Bregman in Heroes and Jack attacking Malchus in Red Sky), although Sam is calmer and not as moody as Jack. Both have social, fun side but when they are deeply hurt they try to hide it (Jack hiding/cleaning his weapon alone in Revelations, Sam hiding/crying alone in a locker room in Paradise Lost).

Both are damaged goods. Jack has a failed marriage behind him and is responsible for its end. Sam has 2 failed engagements behind her and is responsible for at least one break-up. They both lost a lot of people who they cared about and both are understandably afraid of future losses. After divorcing Sara Jack didn’t show much interest in becoming involved again and it took a quite aggressive pursuit on the part of Khyntia and Laira for him to notice. It’s unknown how his relationship with Kerry started. Sam, after breaking up with Jonas Hansen, didn’t show much interest in finding someone either. Initially she seemed happy with Narim’s advances but at their second meeting she kept him at arm’s length and later admitted that she didn’t want to get involve with him or even deal with his feelings because of her confusion over which feelings are hers and which Jolinar’s. Similarly with Martouf, she as Sam Carter never showed any romantic feelings for him. While she seemed to enjoy Orlin and Joe Faxon’s advances they both died before it could go anywhere and agent Barret, Felger and McKay’s affection always seemed to be entirely one-sided. Sam enjoyed being in a long-term, stable relationship with Pete though. He was making her happy enough for her to consider spending the rest of her life with him. Ultimately however she chose her extraordinary job, duty, career and Jack over simple, ordinary life he was proposing.

Because of that I feel that at the end of season 8 they are both on the same page regarding relationships. They both know what they bring to the table, what they like and don’t like in their partners, are aware of their own issues and can compromise. What’s extra important in their case, they know and understand what their work means to them.

ALTERNATE REALITIES AND TIMELINES

I don’t have particularly passionate feelings about Sam and Jack in alternate realities and timelines. Mainly because they aren’t *our* Sam and Jack, but different people with different histories. As nice as it is to see their relationship working (and I openly admit that it was alt!S/J marriage in POV that turned me into S/Jshipper) it rarely influences our couple. TBFTGOG and POV gave them some food for thought, but apart from that? I don’t recall anything else.

Btw, I must confess that argument about “cosmic destiny” often used on both sides confuses the h*** out of me. What cosmic destiny? Out of 4 alternate realities Sam and Jack were together in 2; in the third one Sam was with unidentified *someone* (could have been Pete or Jack or Joe or Barrett or someone who she doesn’t even know in our reality) and in the fourth one she was with McKay. If 50/50 is some sort of cosmic destiny written in the stars… So maybe it works in alternate timelines? No such luck; in the first one she was with Joe(2010), in the second one she ended up with Jack (Moebius) and in the third one she was alone (Continuum). So that’s 1 hit out of 3, a little over 30%. So… cosmic destiny? Seriously? If anything those stories show us that everything can happen and every scenario is possible, not that S/J are predestined to be together.

THE MILITARY THING AND POWER DYNAMICS

I don’t have a problem with power dynamics between Sam and Jack, because, as I said, I see them more or less as equals. They weren’t on equal footing in season 1, but after 8 years they very much are. While on SG-1 they made a conscious effort to maintain distance once they realized they were feeling more than they were supposed to – hence calling each other Sir and Carter from season 3 onwards (they used their first names before) and spending time together off-base only in Cassie or T’s company. However at the same time they developed good non-verbal rapport.

What’s also interesting is that despite being his subordinate and having to follow Jack’s orders even when she didn’t like them (which happened very rarely anyway) Sam had a lot of say in any military matter – Jack was always taking her advice into account – and almost complete autonomy in science matters; even off-world Jack always trusted and adhered to her opinion. There was no butting heads or yelling, like with Daniel, because they were usually on the same page. The accusations that she sided with Jack in The Other Side, Scorched Earth or Menace because her judgment was clouded due to her feelings for him don’t ring true to me, because in 2 of these situations she was in total agreement with Jack’s assessment and in the third, while she clearly didn’t like it, she understood his motives and was unable to offer an alternative, so she supported his decisions. Moreover she often calmed him down or made him reassess situation with nothing more than “Sir” and a pointed look. She always knew what to say to stop him from fiddling with her things and wasn’t afraid to let him know she was unhappy about something.

What’s more, Sam definitely had more power in their personal relationship. Probably exactly for fear of abusing his superior professional position Jack left all the decisions regarding *them* up to Sam. He’d let her know where he stood and then wait for her decision, which is why he didn’t make a move after D&C (because Sam said she wanted to “leave it in a room”) or didn’t interfere when Pete appeared. In personal matters all decisions were up to Sam. That much was evident onscreen.

However, I believe that changed after they got together post-Threads. Their relationship hasn’t been shown onscreen yet so I can only speculate, but it’s reasonable to assume that once they became a couple they started to share responsibilities and make decisions together, which demanded change in their power dynamics. I think it’s a given that things got messy at some point and they both had a lot to learn because no matter how equal they had been, Jack still had been her CO and some reactions had been deeply ingrained in both of them. But I also think they succeeded because there was enough ground work to make it happen, despite Sam’s thing for authority figures and Jack’s control issues. I think for me it just comes back to their mutual understanding of each other.

EFFECT ON THE SHOW
As I said, I won’t get into chemistry because it’s too subjective a thing. Sheer numbers of S/J shippers prove there’s something to it, but I realize not everybody sees it.

I’ll say though that overall S/J ship was a good influence on the show, helping to flesh out the characters without falling back on the old tired “love interest of the week” cliché. It gave Jack’s character some development, when he struggled with his feelings for his subordinate and with doing the right thing despite them. Usually he succeeded, sometimes he failed (when season’s arch demanded it ) but it helped make him more rounded and interesting character. It humanized Sam’s character. While she made professional mistakes but if it wasn’t for her completely screw-up personal life she would have been in danger of being too perfect a character. The way it was done, in the wake of her best friend’s death and many sudden changes Sam had a crappy year spent on deep analysis of her life and dreams and goals and at the end she made peace with herself and achieved balance.

I realize it’s an unpopular opinion, but I also think S/J ship was good for the team dynamics. Yes, sometimes it stole spotlight from the team (the end of Evolution is a good example), but which pair on SG-1 didn’t do it on occasion… or consistently*cough*D/V*cough*? More importantly, S/J ship afforded many great interactions between team members and secondary characters. Daniel and Jack wouldn’t have had the wonderful talk about “classic Jack O’Neill moments” in D&C if Jack wasn’t considered a Za’tarc due to his feelings for Sam. Sam wouldn’t have cried on Teal’c’s shoulder if she wasn’t so broken up over Jack’s disappearance. She wouldn’t have had a talk with Janet which told us so much about their friendship if she wasn’t obsessing over getting Jack back home in 100 days. Hammond wouldn’t have shown his perceptiveness and empathy in Entity if Jack wasn’t so anguished over killing Sam in Entity. And so on…

Heck, episodes like “2010” would have been poorer for underlying tension S/J interaction provided. So yes, while there certainly were some missteps along the way (more in Sam/Pete ship IMO) overall S/J dramatic impact on the show is positive. It certainly made the show more accessible, varied and able to offer something to any viewer.

[Petra]

Spoiler:

MY TAKE ON MOST POPULAR ANTI-S/J ARGUMENTS

“Characters become defined by the romantic relationship. All character development becomes centered around the romance”

This is simply not true. While in case of Sam and Jack their romantic feelings help to flesh out characters they are far from defining them. As Jack’s relationship with Daniel becomes more antagonistic it also receives more screentime and attention. Jack’s relationship with Teal’c is still as important as ever. Ditto on Hammond and secondary characters. Huge moments for Jack include dealing with Daniel’s death, accepting Jonas and struggling with his promotion and new duties – all of which have nothing to do with Sam. While it is true that time-wise all his interactions are more limited in later seasons it’s simply because of limited RDA screentime later on, not some drastic change of focus.

Sam never ceased to be a great scientist, a kick-ass soldier and a force to be reckoned with – the simple fact that some fans dubbed her Super Sam, after D&C, is the best proof. Contrary to what some antis claim, Sam didn’t somehow lose her relationship with her father up till his death at the end of season 8, which frankly seems to have more to do with “cleaning the house due to the series’ end” than anything ship related. While dropping the Jolinar arch is regrettable (and I mourn it personally) it was never really developed and dropped at the beginning of season 3, before S/J ship became an issue. Blaming S/J for it seems silly. While season 8 indeed delved into Sam’s love life, it was centred on Pete at the time so again blaming S/J ship seems silly. Blaming loss of S/D friendship on S/J would have been understandable…except in seasons 9 & 10 this relationship vanished almost completely and at the time there was no S/J interaction at all. Clearly it wasn’t the reason then.
I wonder when S/J will get blame for all the crimes and natural disasters in the world.

“Predictable romantic stereotypes”

YMMV on this one depending on your tolerance for stereotypes. Personally alpha!male and alpha!female hooking up is so common that I don’t mind it in the slightest. I can understand the people who do though and I think it would be an excellent argument if 95% of people using it didn’t slash J/D (two alpha!males of the show) or ship D/V (alpha!male and alpha!female of the last two seasons) or both, at the same time.

“Sam and Jack's "relationship" is simply drawn out for too long to be believable.” And tied with it “shippy moments are randomly thrust into random episodes”

This is subjective. Of course tv’s habit of drawing out UST as long as possible has little to do with RL, but let’s not forget such are demands of tv series. IMO S/J thing could have been handled much worse, as it was, it still made perfect sense to me in terms of the characters’ decisions – I explained my POV in S/J Relationship Onscreen paragraph. And because their relationship makes sense to me, seems quite natural and I see ship/friendship in almost every episode I disagree with the second statement. It all depends on your personal POV.

“By focusing on the romance angle, the writers lost the chance to develop a unique and interesting mentoring relationship between Sam and Jack.”

YMMV on this one too. Personally I’m sick of clichéd “young woman becomes a student of older, wiser man”, have no interest in watching it and I’m glad the writers didn’t go down this route. Especially since post season 1 I see both Sam and Jack as equals learning from each other, instead of Jack mentoring Sam.

“By focusing on Sam's romance/love life, she is often reduced to the stereotypical role of "the Girl””

This is partly tied with argument no 1, about lack of any additional character development and is just as untrue. When was Sam a stereotypical Girl with Jack? She had her moments with Pete, that’s true, but what does it have to do with S/J? When was she reduced to carving out hearts and helplessly sitting at home waiting for her man? When did her feelings for Jack (because let’s remember that with possible exception of BtS when they weren’t quite themselves they never acted on their feelings) diminished her brilliance as a scientist, officer and a leader? When did they stop her from rescuing her team’s butts? Never. In fact it was some Sam/Cam and Sam/Vala interaction that seemed to push her firmly into the role of stereotypical Girl, more interested in shopping and baking cookies for guys than her professional stance.

This statement pushes my buttons however, because I hate it when female characters are criticized for daring to have feelings and /or love life. When a male character gets a love interest it’s all good; when a female – it somehow diminishes her and reduces to cliché. I hate double standards, hate them with passion. Women have feelings, they fall in love, not always with the right guy, they don’t always deal well with feelings’ stuff; in one word: they have a love life just like guys do. It can be messy. It doesn’t make them perfect, but it makes them real. And isn’t it the point? Especially when it concerns such a well-rounded, interesting character like Sam Carter, who is so much more than just a Love Interest.

“S/J ship is nothing more than Sam’s one-sided crush on her CO”

I already explained how I see S/J ship so I won’t repeat myself, but this statement always boggles my mind. Why do people insist that Sam’s pining for Jack? If there is any pining at all (which I don’t see at all) it’s rather on Jack’s side. He’s the one wearing his heart on his sleeve while Sam backs away. He’s the one willing to talk in D&C, he’s the one inviting her to go fishing, he’s the doing the one thing he swore he’d never do because she asked him to. And yet some folks go to extraordinary lengths to absolve him of any feelings.

On the “crush” note, I read over and over the antis complaints that people don’t crush on someone for years, that it’s impossible and unnatural and yet they refuse to admit that if that’s the case, Sam’s “crush” is probably something more…

“ The lack of common interests.”

I already covered this one in S/J Compatibility. Astronomy. Chess. Fishing. Bikes. Cassie. Old movies. Flying. Military. Similar sense of humour. I’ll repeat: after taking into consideration all interests, hobbies, shared values and ways of spending free time it turns out that Sam and Jack have the most in common out of all characters in the entire show. Jack/Teal’c and Daniel/Teal’c are second.

“Age difference”

Again, this is subjective. Personally I don’t have anything against partners being 10 or 15 years apart. I know 2 such couples in RL and they are happy. However I’m greatly annoyed when S/J age difference is so exaggerated that some folks claim Jack’s a contemporary of Jacob and Hammond. I just..what? Depending on your view of prop canon, Jack was born either in 1952 or in 1957. If the age difference squicks you so much, why not go with his younger age? And really, it’s always good to remember that there’s a difference between *actors* and the *characters* they play. Really.

Another thing about the squickiness of the age difference that has me scratching my head is that it is applied *only* to Sam and Jack. The same people who claim they are uncomfortable with S/J because he is 10-15 years older are perfectly happy to see him with Kerry, who is younger or at the very least Sam’s age. Shouldn’t they be against this pairing too? Not to mention folks who use this argument and ship D/J.

And the same applies to Sam…apparently she’s too young for Jack but nobody says that she’s too young for Orlin, who’s thousands of years old. We don’t know the age of Martouf and Narim but given that the first one is a Tok’ra and the second one lives in medically advanced society I don’t think it’s a big stretch to assume they are also (much) older than her. But of course the age becomes a problem only when S/J are discussed.

And since I’m on the subject of age…

Personally I don't think Daniel's older than Sam. I've always viewed them as being the same age, maybe even Sam being a year or so older, because she has this "older sister" vibe at times. I know that according to Entity she was born in 1968, but I just don't buy it.

Firstly, it's been proven numerous times that to be able to do everything Sam did in her life she would have to be older than 29 in CotG - meaning born earlier.

Secondly, I just don't believe in prop canon, period. It's too unreliable and not made by the writers themselves. If prop canon was to be believed, Jack was demoted and promoted several times during *one* episode, and his service record changes every time he wears dress blues. So for me personally, if something wasn't *said* on the show it's not canon. Hence, IMO, Jack was born in 1957, Daniel in 1964/5, Teal'c in 1898 and we don't know Sam's actual birth date, just that she was born in May.

Thirdly, I don't understand fandom's obsession with the fact that Sam *has to* be younger than the guys. Why? Is her being older than them makes her somehow less capable or accomplished? Geez, as a scientist she's Daniel's equal and she's also an officer - making her older doesn't diminish her genius. And I also don't understand why folks insist on making Jack older. Up untill Fragile Balance his canon age was never in question and the fact that age suddenly caught up with RDA is no reason to retcon *Jack's* backstory. If anything it gives it more credence, because I'd think all this stress and responsibility would take its toll on his health/looks.

“Jack being the sole survivor of the Black Widow Curse”.

Again, this is not true. Apart from Pete there’s Lt Simmons, agent Barret, Felger and McKay, all of whom survived their crush on Carter just fine. And Jonas Hansen died long after he and Sam had broken up and gone their separate ways. This leaves Narim, Martouf, Orlin and possibly Joe Faxon. 4 dead suitors/potential love interests out of 11 – not even half. Let’s compare it to Teal’c’s record, shall we? Drey’ouc – dead. Shan’ouc – dead. Ishta – ok. Krista – kidnapped, but she survived. 2 out of 4 are dead, so Teal’c’s love interests have 50/50 chance of survival – less than Sam’s. Why there’s no Teal’c’s Black Widower Curse?

“The writers’ lack of romantic subtlety and artificial inducing of shippy scenes.”

This one always puzzles me. How can a shippy scene be shippy without showing it? The only alternative I see is the characters declaring their undying love for each other out of the blue, and I doubt that’s what everybody wants. Can someone show me a movie or a tv series featuring a romantic scene that *wouldn’t* be somehow marked as romantic?

“The lack of any confirmation one way or another.”

I used to be angry at TPTB’s fear of showing once and for all whether they are together or not. But that is slowly changing. Threads/Moebius was left open-ended enough that if someone’s living in total denial they can continue to do so, but if someone actually paid attention to S/J story there’s no doubt they got together. And I think I like it.

[Nynaeve506]

Good job Petra I think you made some excellent points. Further more, I have entire post series on 100 Looks of Jack O'Neill (as he beholds Sam Carter) and when I did it, I had to really be selective because it probably could have been a few hundred (or more). Sam pining - hmph. A picture is worth a thousand words:



And hey, why don't I go for 2,000:



I understand why people get irritated at the ship thing in general. There's a tendency to ship two characters who even stand within three feet of each other or show any (even barely traceable) chemistry. Worse yet, there tends to be a total disregard for the story being told.

A bit of an OT example

Spoiler:

One of the big ships that just got 'confirmation' so to speak was House/Cuddy from House. I haven't seen the second half of this last season - although I did read about it. I've been staunchly against this relationship from the start (although I'm not going to fight that they were deliberately putting chemistry in for the two) - I think Cuddy is too good for House. House is an a$$ - he deserves to be alone as far as I'm concerned. That said, I did read up on the latter half and if House really has grown, I can see this as a potentially good relationship instead of the train wreck I keep imagining in my head. At the same time, I would never deny the canon that they do have a chemistry. I just don't think they should be together.

On the other hand, you have S/J which I think show two intelligent, well-rounded people who have their issues and work through them. While we live in a culture of people who generally jump into bed with another person, that's not who these two people were or are. I see Jack as a very monogamous man and wouldn't be surprised to find out that he'd married Sara at 18 and had never been with another woman until maybe after their marriage had ended. (That's just my example to show the type of person he is, not saying that's how it happened). Sam is generally wrapped up in her work. There's a lot about her that screams insecurity when it comes to seeing herself as *woman* - which I think is probably rooted in losing her mom at a young age and being in a house men, in a career full of men, with lots and lots of testosterone everywhere. In a lot of ways I see S/J being drawn together because they have a very common mindset (they are both incredibly military in their thinking) and because they do have common experiences (not only at the SGC but losing people close to them and also buried fears of being close to someone). They're not that different.

And hey, at the end of the day, Sam enjoys fishing as much as Jack...

I meant *this* kind of fishing of course:



So much gutter around here

[hlndncr]

Petra, WOW! Nice Job! I can't say I agree with everything, but you made a lot of great points and backed all of them up really well. Thanks for sharing.

[leiasky]

Wow Petra. Drop that in an anti thread... LOL!

[EvenstarSRV]

I'm woefully behind with no hope of catching up, but I just wanted to comment on a few things.

RL is extremely busy so this summer I won’t spend as much time on the forum as I’d like to and more often than not I’ll be playing catch-up. Like now.

Menace

I don’t like this episode as much as fandom in general appears to and I can’t quite figure out why. It’s probably a combination of Jack and Daniel’s weird behavior and lack of Teal’c (does he even have 5 lines?). But first things first. What do I like?

IIRC, 9/11 occurred while this episode was being filmed, so they reduced Teal'c's involvement for the most part out of deference to how much CJ was affected by it.

I thought she was immensely worried about Jack, and concerned about Lt. Simmons, and was trying to come up with any theory she could in order to save them and the base from destruction. I think she kept revising her theories simply because she couldn't actually know what might work given the small amount of information she was sorking with. So she felt she had to try anything that might work instead of waiting for destruction to happen. I think she also knew that Jack would die anyway if she didn't do anything, and she knew him well enough to think he would want her to try what she was doing. She did, after all, tell him when she removed the life support, what she was going to do, and that she didn't know whether he (Jack) could understand what she was suggesting. And didn't his hand sort of squeeze hers when she told him this, indicating his approval or agreement? And when she went to the infirmary to see Janet, she did make a point of stopping to see Simmons and encourage him; she was very kind to him. I think any seeming lack of concern on her part was only because she couldn't afford to take the time to stop trying to figure out a way to save everybody. But that's just my opinion on all of that.

Couldn't green you, but I wanted to say that ITA re Sam's feeling regarding Jack and Simmons in Message in a Bottle. And I actually really like the fact that Sam had to keep on formulating, testing, and revising her theories based on the results of her attempts, it was like seeing the scientific method in action.

I guess this is one of the few times I would disagree with you. That scene never said to me she was telling Daniel she loved him in a romantic way. It said to me that she was telling a good friend how much she cared about him and didn't want him to die. And that she shouldn't have waited to tell him. It's like in real life, we don't often tell friends or family how much we love and care for them, or appreciate them being in our lives. It usually comes when the other person is dying and we have little time left to tell them just how much we cared about them, and how much they meant to us. Sure, she loved Daniel, but not in a romantic, shippy way. Just like she loved Teal'c (I'm sure) in the same way. So, ... I never saw anything shippy between S/D in that scene.

Sadly, I've had that happen once or twice in my life, where a good friend died and I never got the chance to tell them how much they meant to me.

First, (((hugs))) you, hlndncr, and anyone who's missed that last chance with someone they care about.

Second, I agree in that I never saw that scene between Sam and Daniel as shippy. As hlndncr mentioned, the context of her 'I don't know why we wait to tell people how we really feel. I guess I hoped that you always knew' really matters, and in this case I believe Sam was referring to how Daniel influenced how she views situations to an extent, that thanks to Daniel she's more likely to take into account a humanistic perspective in addition to a scientific or military one. Not unlike how Jack has learned to appreciate the scientific perspective on things thanks to Sam, where even though he's dismissive of Sam and Hammond's interest in the naquadria he uses its potential for making defense shields in his argument to Jonas about telling the truth.

As for the scene being a nod to S/D shippers, from what I've seeing of shipping so far it really doesn't take much for people to see ship between two characters if they really want to. There are several scenes that I see as just friendship between Sam and Jack but I know many of you see as ship, and I'm sure its the same with S/D and other shippers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that of course, we all see the show our own way, but given how the Sam and Daniel relationship was shown in the rest of the show I have a hard time believing that that scene was intentionally written as shippy by the writers or acted that way by the actors.

Spoiler:

MY TAKE ON MOST POPULAR ANTI-S/J ARGUMENTS

“S/J ship is nothing more than Sam’s one-sided crush on her CO”

I already explained how I see S/J ship so I won’t repeat myself, but this statement always boggles my mind. Why do people insist that Sam’s pining for Jack? If there is any pining at all (which I don’t see at all) it’s rather on Jack’s side. He’s the one wearing his heart on his sleeve while Sam backs away. He’s the one willing to talk in D&C, he’s the one inviting her to go fishing, he’s the doing the one thing he swore he’d never do because she asked him to. And yet some folks go to extraordinary lengths to absolve him of any feelings.

On the “crush” note, I read over and over the antis complaints that people don’t crush on someone for years, that it’s impossible and unnatural and yet they refuse to admit that if that’s the case, Sam’s “crush” is probably something more…

Excellent posts! I can't say I agree with all of it, but the majority of it is very much how I view Sam and Jack's relationship and why enjoy it for the most part, despite being a non-shipper.

I think the pining argument is what confuses me the most. Sam comes within days of marrying someone else while Jack gets dumped because his girlfriend can tell he's hung up on Sam, and she gets tagged as the one pining?

[iiradned]

Excellent posts Petra.

[Petra]

{mod snip}

Seriously guys, thanks for all the praise. I've never expected anybody to agree with me on all points (or even to read it in its entirety) but I'm glad you like it. I wrote it mainly for myself but also because the antis have always complained about a lack of any coherent explanation why we ship S/J beyond "because they love each other" and ignore all their problems and I wanted to try my hand at this.

And now back to our regular discussion

Not unlike how Jack has learned to appreciate the scientific perspective on things thanks to Sam, where even though he's dismissive of Sam and Hammond's interest in the naquadria he uses its potential for making defense shields in his argument to Jonas about telling the truth.

That's a good point, I haven't thought of it this way.

As for the scene being a nod to S/D shippers, from what I've seeing of shipping so far it really doesn't take much for people to see ship between two characters if they really want to.

Guilty as charged.

I think the pining argument is what confuses me the most. Sam comes within days of marrying someone else while Jack gets dumped because his girlfriend can tell he's hung up on Sam, and she gets tagged as the one pining?

I know. I think that's what annoys me the most. Not that someone doesn't like S/J ship - it would be boring if we all liked the same things - but because this argument often come across as sexist.

[Nynaeve506]

As for the scene being a nod to S/D shippers, from what I've seeing of shipping so far it really doesn't take much for people to see ship between two characters if they really want to. There are several scenes that I see as just friendship between Sam and Jack but I know many of you see as ship, and I'm sure its the same with S/D and other shippers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that of course, we all see the show our own way, but given how the Sam and Daniel relationship was shown in the rest of the show I have a hard time believing that that scene was intentionally written as shippy by the writers or acted that way by the actors.

I tend to take the show as a "whole" rather than just as individual slices. This means what I learn in S. 10 will inform upon how I understand S. 1. Most of what I celebrate in shippiness at the beginning is simply the first tendrils of chemistry starting to reach towards each other. There's a gradual understanding of what each is feeling as the seasons go by so that by fourth season there's a full blown realization that they have very inappropriate feelings for one another. Knowing that emotions continue - and basing it in what we know generally to be true about relationships where feelings have started to become involved - there can't be any *just* friendship motivations anymore. One is going to compensate one way or the other to try to ignore whatever attraction and emotional connection is there.

THAT'S why I don't interpret S/D ship here - HAD there been. Had Sam at any point really admitted to feelings for Daniel, then my interpretation of the scene would have been made "shippy" - but because she clearly states later that they were only good friends, then that comment, to be taken correctly and interpreted correctly according to context is referring to a strong friendly feeling.

There's a lot of scenes that are friendship for S/J, but because there is chemistry, admissions of feelings, and a later alluded to relationship, to reduce them to mere friendship is to ignore that these are multi-layered characters and that emotions/relationships are rarely uncomplicated.

Am I making sense? I just take umbrage with some things because I happen to ship based on what I see on television not on whether or not two people stand in the same room with each other. I rarely 'ship' characters so when I do, I'm hardcore because I see it as canon and as part of the story. So I'm just a little touchier than most LOL

[Cagranosalis]

Great posts Petra. There's a lot I agree on - a few things I don't but, in the main, it's nice to see those thoughts laid out and well thought through. I know, as shippers, we go to great lengths to read things into scenes etc. to apply the ship factor to them - in particular in these discussions here since the point of the rewatch is to find ship and discuss what we do and don't see as shippy - but I have also seen people go to great lengths to explain away the ship as nothing more than just a crush, something one-sided or, even, just platonic. Regardless of what one's views on the ship (anti or pro) you can't argue with the in-canon, on screen evidence seen in episodes like Divde and Conquer, Window Of Opportunity and Grace where the intent is clearly romantic. Whether one choses to extrapolate that into an established realtionship post-series is entirely up to personal interpretation. Personally, I no longer enjoy having debates with antis about this ship since I know I won't change their minds and, frankly, what's the point? live and let live.

Great review on Meridian. Personally I do find it slightly shippy that Sam mentions to Daniel her regret about not telling people how you really feel but... not Sam/Dan ship. I think at this point it her thoughts and feelings would be solely focussed on the pain and anticipated loss of a friend whom she cares a lot about. And, as has been said before, so many of us go through life never actually telling those who mean the most to us, just how much we do value and care for them. And what often happens after a significant loss (or a near miss / life threatening illness etc.) is we re-evaulate our lives - our priorities and our emotions and, sometimes, this brings about a change in our behaviour and attitude. I think we see some of this start to happen in the next episode and I'm going to reserve my comments about that until after Josi posts the Revelations review but, suffice to say I had the pleasure of making the banner for that one and the scene depicted in it is, in my opinion, one of huge significance to Sam and Jack's relationship and the direction it takes from that point up until Threads.

P.S. forgive me for going back a few episodes but as someone mentioned, the opening scene in Menace was filmed on 11th September 2001 - actually just after they heard about the first plane. According to Martin Wood in the commentary, the scene was originally blocked differently but Christopher Judge has lots of ties to New York and was so completely devastated by the news that he asked to be kept in the background as much as possible. In fact, in later scenes you can see under his make up just how deeply it has affected him.
Actually, I often mention that one of the things I love about SG-1 is that the enjoyment they are having making it, the fun they have together and the love they all have for each other comes out loud and clear on screen and that's why it's so good. This is one of very few times when I don't get that vibe (understandably) and, thus, it tends to be one of my less favourite episodes because of that.

[EvenstarSRV]

Guilty as charged.

I do want to clarify that I don't think anyone is wrong or misguided or anything like that when they watch the show this way. I do it myself to an extent when it comes to friendship scenes between Sam and Jack. It's just that when it comes to ship it often feels like they're watching the show in a very different way than I'm used to watching TV, so I'm often confused by it.

I know. I think that's what annoys me the most. Not that someone doesn't like S/J ship - it would be boring if we all liked the same things - but because their arguments are always so incredibly sexist.

That is an element about it that bugs me, not just with Sam but with most of the other female characters on Stargate (and other shows to an extent). It's a bit like why I don't get the argument that S7/8 were all about Sam's personal life. Really there were just 3 episodes that focused on that (Chimera, Affinity, Threads), while Teal'c also had 3 eps focusing on his personal life (Birthright, Affinity, Sacrifices) but I don't see similar claims being made about him in that regard.

I tend to take the show as a "whole" rather than just as individual slices. This means what I learn in S. 10 will inform upon how I understand S. 1. Most of what I celebrate in shippiness at the beginning is simply the first tendrils of chemistry starting to reach towards each other. There's a gradual understanding of what each is feeling as the seasons go by so that by fourth season there's a full blown realization that they have very inappropriate feelings for one another. Knowing that emotions continue - and basing it in what we know generally to be true about relationships where feelings have started to become involved - there can't be any *just* friendship motivations anymore. One is going to compensate one way or the other to try to ignore whatever attraction and emotional connection is there.

THAT'S why I don't interpret S/D ship here - HAD there been. Had Sam at any point really admitted to feelings for Daniel, then my interpretation of the scene would have been made "shippy" - but because she clearly states later that they were only good friends, then that comment, to be taken correctly and interpreted correctly according to context is referring to a strong friendly feeling.

There's a lot of scenes that are friendship for S/J, but because there is chemistry, admissions of feelings, and a later alluded to relationship, to reduce them to mere friendship is to ignore that these are multi-layered characters and that emotions/relationships are rarely uncomplicated.

Am I making sense? I just take umbrage with some things because I happen to ship based on what I see on television not on whether or not two people stand in the same room with each other. I rarely 'ship' characters so when I do, I'm hardcore because I see it as canon and as part of the story. So I'm just a little touchier than most LOL

You do make sense, and I really try to pick my words here so I don't make anyone here feel defensive about shipping in a Ship thread of all places, I know I'm the guest here so I try to tread lightly.

I also try to look at things as a whole on the show and yes often things that are brought up in later seasons change how I view earlier events. When I first saw Nemesis I just thought that Sam was flustered at Jack's fishing invite because he'd never invited her before, then D&C/WoO changed my impression of her feelings in that scene. However, it's not going to change my impression of their feelings in Solitudes for example, because even though they admit to romantic feelings later on, those hadn't developed at that point in the series, IMHO.

As I've said before, when it comes to Sam and Jack's relationship my baseline is friendship with elements/moments of romantic feelings or 'ship' mixed in. I like to think of it in terms of different gears on a bike, where for the most part their feelings run at a certain speed and then shift into high gear during more shippy moments before settling back down. So when I say that I see a particular scene between Sam and Jack as friendship I mean that, while the potential for romantic feelings is always there, in that moment the driving force behind their actions, to me, comes from their bedrock of friendship and trust in each other, rather than their romantic feelings for each other. It's not 'just' friendship to me, it's that I think their feelings of friendship are more at the forefront in those moments and their romantic feelings serve more to deepen or underline, rather than drive, their emotions in that moment.

Also, IMHO Sam and Jack are people who are very adept at compartmentalizing their feelings, so even though we don't necessarily see them act or talk about their feelings for each other I have no trouble believing they still exist. I don't think they ever really ignored their attraction or feelings for each other, IMO they acknowledged them privately they just chose not to act on them publicly. And really, that's what I enjoy about their relationship so much and why ship between them works for me for the most part, because it's not hard at all for me to imagine them making that shift in gear and acting on their romantic feelings for each other when circumstances allow for it.

I hope that makes some sense, and I'd like to repeat that the last thing I want is for anyone here to feel at all defensive about how they ship S/J, and I'd like to apologize if I have made anyone feel that way.