Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Nynaeve506]

"Menace" does have a bit of subtle shippiness - we have evidence of S/J mirroring which shows how much they've gotten underneath each other's skins.





It's not "overtly shippy" but how many people mirror someone they have little or no emotional connection with? Plus it speaks to the compatibility of thought that S/J have. One of the reasons I love Sam is because she *thinks* military. Her viewpoints are what we stereotypically assign to someone like Jack. She doesn't see a child with Reese. She see's a "robot" - a complicated piece of technology. Daniel sees a life. Jack see what Sam sees - technology.

[hedwig]

Also, Grieves’ rank is strange…so being a Colonel he was taking orders from another Colonel (Maybourne) and a Captain (Newman, CO of the base)?
Speaking of ranks, there is another goof..what did Grogan do to be demoted to Sergeant?

Probably a slippage in continuity (since he was supposed to be a Lt.).

[hlndncr]

Oh so behind, so behind. I'll just say a few things about Menace and Sentinal as I try to get caught up.

I can't say Menace was ever a favorite of mine, but it does have some really strong emotional beats, especially at the end between Jack and Daniel, that I think really lend some weight to the farewell these to share in Meridian.

First, I don't think it's fair that Jack is always made the heavy when dealing with the human form replicators. His assessment of them as a threat has always proven to be correct. His mistrust of Reece from the outset is completely understandable to me. He sees a planet that is completely wiped out and the only thing left is Reece and some replicator blocks. His instincts that she is hiding something and that she could prove dangerous are right on target. And Daniel's idealism does prove to be dangerous to himself and the base. Daniel may not like it, but Jack was protecting him too (from his own naivete).

As for Jack's relationships with children, he has always shown himself to be good with younger children (Retu Charlie, Merin); he has no patience with older children/teenagers, especially ones who he suspects of hiding things. His interactions with Reece remind me of his relationship with Loran in The Light. And of course, in this case we have the added complication that Reece is a robot; so Jack was never going to react to her the way he would to a human child of any age.

I really like Jack and Sam's interactions in this episode. They treat one another as equals (with Sam maybe slightly having the upper hand). They discuss the situation with Reece being the only thing left on the planet and are of a similar mind. Jack goes back to the planet at Sam's urging. When he meets with the team investigating the planet I love how it's clear Sam is the one really giving the orders and Jack just goes along with it. (SG3 Leader: "Colonel, you said to look for anything uncharacteristic of the indigenous technology, right?" "I would never say anything like that, Major." SG3 Leader: "Right. Well, Major Carter said not to ignore anything however insignificant it may seem." "What have you got?")

I like Jack's silly antics with the microscope behind Daniel. You can see Sam close her eyes in fond exasperation. While Jack may sometimes act like a child, Sam does know how to control him (it's almost second nature to her at this point). Like when he's tapping on the glass trying to irritate the replicator and Sam points out that doing that is not such a good idea ( "Sir, that glass is supposed to be acid resistant, but it hasn't been tested against replicator spray."), he immediately stops, and she goes back to work without missing a beat.

As for Sentinal, it has never been a favorite of mine, but I've always had a hard time putting my finger on what I don't like about it. Reading everyone's comments I think I've been able to figure it out. I think what bothers me is that none of the characters seem to be in the right place or being used to their fullest potential.

First, I didn't like them inserting the new characters into the flashbacks. It's deceptive for one thing, and for the longest time it made me wonder if I missed something in Shades of Grey. I also could make no connection to these characters, Grieves and Kershaw, and I didn't really care what happened to them. I would have much prefered that they hired different actors to play Newman and Tobias. Especially since I think that could have led to much more interesting interactions for our team. I mean Jack punched Newman and Tobias claimed that she was meant to have Sam's job (although I doubt that).

Next there was Grogan. I guess you could say it was ironic that the one character that kept getting killed in all the training scenerios was the only one on his team to survive. But again, it just didn't work for me. I would have prefered to see Satterfield; her crush on Daniel could have added an interesting background tension.

So here is my rewrite of Sentinal: Newman and Tobias return to the planet with SG1 where Tobias has to swallow her jealousy and dislike of Sam to work with her to break the shield code (as pointed out by others it makes no sense that Daniel was doing it). Jack and Newman have to work together to fight off the Jaffa patrols. Daniel with an anxious Satterfield go to Marul to try and get the people of the planet to evacuate, with Teal'c as back-up who would then confront the Jaffa (maybe try and turn him to the cause). Jack is captured by one of the patrols and brought with the others to the cave. Newman escapes and goes back to the cave to Tobias and Sam, where together they realize the importance of the caretaker. Then the forceshield scene plays out as before.

Yep, to me that would have made a much better episode, and could have possibly allowed for more Sam/Jack interaction, which is always welcome and appreciated.

[Fluffy17]

Banner by Snow White

Meridian


The episode starts with Sam & Daniel running from the gateroom to the infirmary with Daniel in an obvious state of distress. He has had a lethal dose of radiation poisoning. In flashbacks we are told that whilst visiting the new planet Kelowna, SG1 are told about a new explosive – Naquadria –as opposed to Naquada. We are also introduced to Jonas Quinn, a young intelligent man who has a very inquisitive mind. Daniel prevents a naquadria-powered device from exploding but is blamed for the disaster but in fact he saved millions of lives. There seems to be no way of healing him and as he gets sicker, the rest of SG1 say their goodbyes, all very emotional. Sam tries to save him with the Go’auld healing device, but fails and agonisingly makes it worse for him. Daniel meets Oma, an ascended being, who gives him the option of joining her. Daniel feels he’s failed in his life but Oma tells him all we can control is if we are good or evil so he decides to let go of his earthly life. Jacob tries with the healing device but Daniel has an out of body talk with Jack, and Jack tells Jacob to stop. Daniel turns into light and floats away

Observations

Well – no sign of shippiness, but we see Jack spilling a few emotions, shame he couldn’t have directed a few Sam’s way….. He get’s angry with Hammond, with Jonas when he gives him a letter from Hammond and again later in Redemption with Sam.

Jack’s trying to save his friend and Sam saying how important naquadria could be was different. Usually Jack’s more for the weapons and Sam’s the one against it.

This was always going to be a Daniel focussed episode, Michael Shanks leaving Stargate SG1 was at the time a big thing, rumours of rows etc but they’ve always denied it in all the commentaries I’ve ever watched. They do genuinely seem a happy bunch of people. Perhaps I’m naïve?

Personally it’s taken me years to get used to Daniel, in the beginning I never really liked him. But now I think he's great - he bring the moral dynamic in which is usually needed, even if it's not always wanted by the military. I liked Jonas, I thought he brought something new.

[Zoser]

Oh so behind, so behind.

Me too!

First, I don't think it's fair that Jack is always made the heavy when dealing with the human form replicators. His assessment of them as a threat has always proven to be correct. His mistrust of Reece from the outset is completely understandable to me. He sees a planet that is completely wiped out and the only thing left is Reece and some replicator blocks. His instincts that she is hiding something and that she could prove dangerous are right on target. And Daniel's idealism does prove to be dangerous to himself and the base. Daniel may not like it, but Jack was protecting him too (from his own naivete).

As for Jack's relationships with children, he has always shown himself to be good with younger children (Retu Charlie, Merin); he has no patience with older children/teenagers, especially ones who he suspects of hiding things. His interactions with Reece remind me of his relationship with Loran in The Light. And of course, in this case we have the added complication that Reece is a robot; so Jack was never going to react to her the way he would to a human child of any age.

I agree completely

It's deceptive for one thing, and for the longest time it made me wonder if I missed something in Shades of Grey. I also could make no connection to these characters, Grieves and Kershaw, and I didn't really care what happened to them. I would have much prefered that they hired different actors to play Newman and Tobias. Especially since I think that could have led to much more interesting interactions for our team. I mean Jack punched Newman and Tobias claimed that she was meant to have Sam's job (although I doubt that).

Next there was Grogan. I guess you could say it was ironic that the one character that kept getting killed in all the training scenerios was the only one on his team to survive. But again, it just didn't work for me. I would have prefered to see Satterfield; her crush on Daniel could have added an interesting background tension.

So here is my rewrite of Sentinal: Newman and Tobias return to the planet with SG1 where Tobias has to swallow her jealousy and dislike of Sam to work with her to break the shield code (as pointed out by others it makes no sense that Daniel was doing it). Jack and Newman have to work together to fight off the Jaffa patrols. Daniel with an anxious Satterfield go to Marul to try and get the people of the planet to evacuate, with Teal'c as back-up who would then confront the Jaffa (maybe try and turn him to the cause). Jack is captured by one of the patrols and brought with the others to the cave. Newman escapes and goes back to the cave to Tobias and Sam, where together they realize the importance of the caretaker. Then the forceshield scene plays out as before.

I thought the shield code was musical. And although there is a relationship of music and math I would think someone with a trained ear, lets say a linguist, would probably be more intuitive in solving this ever changing code. But I like your scenario with Tobias and Newman.

[Zoser]

When there are strong emotions that are hard to express some get angry and some get weepy. I see Jack's anger as the only way he has of venting his emotions and everyone needs to duck and cover.

As for Jack and Sam - I think if they let the emotions flow they would have would up with serious infractions of the regs. Distance and anger held them at bay. If he let Sam cry on his shoulder it would have been all over.

[Fluffy17]

When there are strong emotions that are hard to express some get angry and some get weepy. I see Jack's anger as the only way he has of venting his emotions and everyone needs to duck and cover.

As for Jack and Sam - I think if they let the emotions flow they would have would up with serious infractions of the regs. Distance and anger held them at bay. If he let Sam cry on his shoulder it would have been all over.

True tis his way. Darn those regs (maybe she did we just didn't see it!!) Speaks a woman starved of ship

[Rachel500]

Meridian

Generally

Well, this was always going to be focused more on Jack and Daniel given the storyline of Daniel dying and Ascending.

I actually thought it was a good way to write Daniel out and in the end gave the character a renewal when he returned.

It was hugely sad when I first watched it and still is.

Sam and Jack

There isn't a lot of ship (unsurprisingly) but it is here that we begin to see the first cracks appear between them that end up with them at odds with one another in the next episode (where the fallout of Daniel's death has a big impact in terms of their relationship).

I think what we see here is how Jack and Sam approach grief in a similar way but one which has them pushing apart rather than coming together in this particular instance.

Both of them hide from what's happening to a large degree in work: Sam in looking at the naquadria, Jack in trying to clear Daniel's name. Their respective focuses put them at odds with each other.

Because for Jack he doesn't care about the naquadria, he cares about ensuring Daniel is cleared of wrongdoing regardless of the benefits that naquadria might bring them. And I don't think Sam places the naquadria above Daniel's reputation so much as the naquadria is all she could focus on - and perhaps like the incident with the black hole, she's so focused on the science to the exclusion of all else.

In the end, of course, Jonas turns up with the naquadria and clears Daniel's name so they both effectively end up without their distractions and forced to face up to what is happening: that their team-mate and friend is dying.

[Zoser]

Both of them hide from what's happening to a large degree in work: Sam in looking at the naquadria, Jack in trying to clear Daniel's name. Their respective focuses put them at odds with each other.

Because for Jack he doesn't care about the naquadria, he cares about ensuring Daniel is cleared of wrongdoing regardless of the benefits that naquadria might bring them. And I don't think Sam places the naquadria above Daniel's reputation so much as the naquadria is all she could focus on - and perhaps like the incident with the black hole, she's so focused on the science to the exclusion of all else.

In the end, of course, Jonas turns up with the naquadria and clears Daniel's name so they both effectively end up without their distractions and forced to face up to what is happening: that their team-mate and friend is dying.

I also reminds me of Sam's demeanor in Message in a Bottle - I thought she was rather heartless in her treatment of Jack and poor love sick Simmons - bother doomed while she kept revising her theories. We always show that lovely hand hold but she is disconnecting Jack from life support (antibiotics) knowing he is sure to die so the 'bugs' will get to their critical number to communicate.

[hedwig]

I also reminds me of Sam's demeanor in Message in a Bottle - I thought she was rather heartless in her treatment of Jack and poor love sick Simmons - bother doomed while she kept revising her theories. We always show that lovely hand hold but she is disconnecting Jack from life support (antibiotics) knowing he is sure to die so the 'bugs' will get to their critical number to communicate.

I thought she was immensely worried about Jack, and concerned about Lt. Simmons, and was trying to come up with any theory she could in order to save them and the base from destruction. I think she kept revising her theories simply because she couldn't actually know what might work given the small amount of information she was sorking with. So she felt she had to try anything that might work instead of waiting for destruction to happen. I think she also knew that Jack would die anyway if she didn't do anything, and she knew him well enough to think he would want her to try what she was doing. She did, after all, tell him when she removed the life support, what she was going to do, and that she didn't know whether he (Jack) could understand what she was suggesting. And didn't his hand sort of squeeze hers when she told him this, indicating his approval or agreement? And when she went to the infirmary to see Janet, she did make a point of stopping to see Simmons and encourage him; she was very kind to him. I think any seeming lack of concern on her part was only because she couldn't afford to take the time to stop trying to figure out a way to save everybody. But that's just my opinion on all of that.

[Rachel500]

For me, it's three different scenarios (despite my kind of connecting AMOT and Meridian in my own post and possibly that's because I didn't express myself very well):

In A Matter of Time: they've realised why the team hasn't gated back and have the camera focused on the black hole and I think the impulse to watch it leaps into Sam's brain, she's immediately engaged with what they could learn from a scientific viewpoint and essentially in the moment *forgets* there is a stranded SG team caught in the wake of that black hole, and she speaks without thinking suggesting they study it - and is smartly corrected by Jack who points out the human factor.

In Message in A Bottle: I actually see Sam as under a huge amount of pressure through most of the episode. Her initial objection to shooting the sphere is disregarded and effectively creates the tight timescales that they are then under (whereas if they hadn't fed it, the life form may have multiplied at a slower rate giving them more time to work out the answer). So I do see her as mostly trying to find a solution, being under pressure to find a solution and far too aware in fact that Simmons and Jack are counting on a solution for their lives. I actually see her *very* affected by what she asks Jack to do (we also see evidence of this later when its the memory she recalls in the S2 finale when she seems him alive and thinks about believing he was dead) but focused as she has to get the job done - and as hedwig says she does have his permission to try it.

In Meridian: I see her running scared from facing up to Daniel dying and the only way she can cope is to immerse herself in the science; to recreate artificially that sense of blindness to everything else that happened for a moment naturally in AMOT. Here's its not that she forgets in her study of the naquadria, its that she's trying to forget because in reality she's far too aware of the human cost they're about to pay in losing someone.

[Petra]

MERIDIAN

Generally:

This isn’t an episode I rewatch often. Tbh – almost never. It’s not because it’s bad, on the contrary – it’s well written, well directed and superbly acted and IMO it was a good way to write Daniel out. He’s gone, but not completely. It introduces Jonas – my third favourite character in the Stargate franchise. If it was up to me I would have kept Jonas as a permanent SG-1 member and Daniel as a recurring/semi-regular glowy!character post season 6. Ah well.

The one thing I really actively dislike about Meridian is what I feel is forced S/D ship that came out of nowhere (and then is continued in one awkward scene in Fallen). As a die-hard S/J shipper who never saw anything remotely romantic/sexual in S/D relationship I can convince myself that Sam is either talking about Jack and how she shouldn’t wait to tell him how she feels or about never telling Daniel how important his friendship was to her. However it requires some conscious effort on my part because the scene reads to me “Daniel I love you and I wish I told you sooner” and it Makes.No.Sense.Whatsoever. in the context of the show.

S/J implications

I agree with Rachel that Meridian shows that Sam and Jack deal with grief and their helplessness in a similar way – by burying themselves in their work. Revelations will highlight the difference between them (Jack hasn’t really changed since Charlie, his MO is still to shut everybody out, put on his macho face and lick his wounds in private while Sam would rather talk it out) but for now they act on the same instinct and they know it. Jack is frustrated by the political situation, angry at our need for Naquadria and taking it out on everybody, but I don’t think he begrudges Sam her work. And similarly she understands why he’s lashing out and doesn’t take it personally.

Oh, and on the subject of Sam's focus on science vs human life I'm with hedwig and Rachel.

[Nynaeve506]

The one thing I really actively dislike about Meridian is what I feel forced S/D ship that came out of nowhere (and then is continued in one awkward scene in Fallen). As a die-hard S/J shipper who never saw anything remotely romantic/sexual in S/D relationship I can convince myself that Sam is either talking about Jack and how she shouldn’t wait to tell him how she feels or about never telling Daniel how important his friendship was to her. However it requires some conscious effort on my part because the scene reads to me “Daniel I love you and I wish I told you sooner” and it Makes.No.Sense.Whatsoever. in the context of the show.

The funny thing is that I never even saw any 'ship' in the comment. I get the feeling in general that SG-1 didn't spend that much time out of the base and so inadvertently she came to really care about him and, well, just never said anything. I think it wouldn't be unlike some of my co-workers that I spend 8 hours a day with - if I came into work tomorrow and found out one of them had died, it would be devastating... but I've never pulled one aside and said "Hey, you know what, I really like you and it would suck if you died" - although Sam's feelings for Daniel would be considerably stronger since they've faced life and death together.

On top of that, I think she's lost so much in her life that perhaps there are lingering regrets - her mom dying, finding out her father was going to die (only then he became Selmak), and no doubt she's lost other people over time.

I mean, I can see how if someone wanted to they could really read ship into this - and if there had been more evidence throughout the series, we could point to this and say "she had romantic feelings for Daniel" but without more, I'd say interpreting as 'friends only' is a pretty accurate description.

Rachel - excellent diagnosis.

It's a human reaction to try to distance oneself from the pain. Also, speaking as an AF brat that moved every couple of years, there's a level of detachment you learn in order to function because if you don't you're constantly being yanked around by the heart. The more emotional a person gets in my presence, the more detached I become because the emotional investment is too risky. It's not a deficiency, just a learned survival technique because - for example - you build close friendships where you emotionally connect and pour your soul out only to then leave and be left hanging without any emotional footing. Unless you're consciously aware that you're doing it, you'll just keep doing it, and even still, it's more comfortable to be detached. It's not unlike becoming calm when everyone panics. You still feel things... just a bit differently.

[hedwig]

MERIDIAN

The one thing I really actively dislike about Meridian is what I feel is forced S/D ship that came out of nowhere (and then is continued in one awkward scene in Fallen). As a die-hard S/J shipper who never saw anything remotely romantic/sexual in S/D relationship I can convince myself that Sam is either talking about Jack and how she shouldn’t wait to tell him how she feels or about never telling Daniel how important his friendship was to her. However it requires some conscious effort on my part because the scene reads to me “Daniel I love you and I wish I told you sooner” and it Makes.No.Sense.Whatsoever. in the context of the show.

I guess this is one of the few times I would disagree with you. That scene never said to me she was telling Daniel she loved him in a romantic way. It said to me that she was telling a good friend how much she cared about him and didn't want him to die. And that she shouldn't have waited to tell him. It's like in real life, we don't often tell friends or family how much we love and care for them, or appreciate them being in our lives. It usually comes when the other person is dying and we have little time left to tell them just how much we cared about them, and how much they meant to us. Sure, she loved Daniel, but not in a romantic, shippy way. Just like she loved Teal'c (I'm sure) in the same way. So, ... I never saw anything shippy between S/D in that scene.

Sadly, I've had that happen once or twice in my life, where a good friend died and I never got the chance to tell them how much they meant to me.

[hlndncr]

In Meridian: I see her running scared from facing up to Daniel dying and the only way she can cope is to immerse herself in the science; to recreate artificially that sense of blindness to everything else that happened for a moment naturally in AMOT. Here's its not that she forgets in her study of the naquadria, its that she's trying to forget because in reality she's far too aware of the human cost they're about to pay in losing someone.

I disagree. I don't think Sam was caught up in the science or trying to run away from facing Daniel's death. I think she and Jack were both doing the same thing, they were searching for meaning in Daniel's death, rather than seeking escape. Jack wants his name cleared because he knows that, as passionate as Daniel is about doing the right thing, he would never cause the death of several others to make his point. I'm sure Jack believed that Daniel was probably acting heroically and in protection of others and that's how he wants his friend to be remembered. Sam wants the naquadriah because she knows how valuable it could be to their work, but it also means that something good would come out of going to that planet and losing Daniel.

I guess this is one of the few times I would disagree with you. That scene never said to me she was telling Daniel she loved him in a romantic way. It said to me that she was telling a good friend how much she cared about him and didn't want him to die. And that she shouldn't have waited to tell him. It's like in real life, we don't often tell friends or family how much we love and care for them, or appreciate them being in our lives. It usually comes when the other person is dying and we have little time left to tell them just how much we cared about them, and how much they meant to us. Sure, she loved Daniel, but not in a romantic, shippy way. Just like she loved Teal'c (I'm sure) in the same way. So, ... I never saw anything shippy between S/D in that scene.

Sadly, I've had that happen once or twice in my life, where a good friend died and I never got the chance to tell them how much they meant to me.

I agree. I never saw anything shippy when she talked about waiting to tell people how you feel about them, just an incredible love for someone who shared her intelligence and passion for science and discovery, and regret that he may not have realized what his friendship meant to her (counter pointed by the scenes with Daniel saying he is unworthy and didn't make a difference). I think you also have to take into account the full conversation; she said he had an effect on people and changed their way of seeing the world (which is sweet but not romantic, IMHO). Something Jack also said in his own way, about how he had come to admire Daniel.

OT waiting until it is too late:

Spoiler:

I have my own experience with this. My paternal grandmother became one of my closest friends in her later years. I loved her dearly, but I know she worried about whether she had lived a good life or raised her children right. I don't think I did enough to let her know that I believed her to be special and good and that I loved her very much. She had been unwell and I had a feeling she would not be with us much longer. When she called me one afternoon after I missed her call because I was at work and in meetings and just busy all day. I put off calling her back. The next morning I received a call from my aunt telling me she had passed away. I was her last call. If I had known I would have called her back immediately. I missed my chance to tell her what she meant to me and to say goodbye. I will always regret that.

I don't think that Sam was thinking about Jack when she was talking to Daniel about waiting until it was too late (although I definitely thought it), but I think after Daniel died/ascended her relationship to Jack was something that was certainly on her mind. But I will save my comments on this until we get to the next episode.