Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Rachel500]

Interestingly, I agree as well in terms of Janet.

I don't think Sam and Janet ever really discussed Jack because it very much fell into the "don't ask/don't tell" category, and I think any time Janet would have raised it with Sam, it would have been as it was in A Hundred Days - more of a concerned fellow officer and friend 'do you have a problem' rather than a girly 'oh you two should really get it on' vibe that comes across in a lot of fanfic.

But I do think Sam and Janet in the early days discussed guys (I can see Sam confiding the Narim kiss for example) and I do think Sam having decided to date might have confided in Janet who would have encouraged her to go on the initial date with Pete, and who may even have encouraged her to go for the second and third date, pleased that it was going so well for her friend.

I do think had Sam confided in her about the morning after and Pete's hissy fit, Janet might have raised a warning flag in terms of Pete having insecurity issues and why hadn't Sam thrown him out on his backside, but actually I can't see Sam confiding in her about that because I think Sam took Pete's hissy fit over her secrecy about her work as her personal failure to make the relationship work and I think she wouldn't have wanted to share the specifics of that with anyone (just too personal).

But like everyone else, I do think if Janet had been around through the proposal, it might have given Sam just that someone else to talk to who might have been able to make her see that regardless of anything (or anyone) else, if it's taking you two weeks to answer the guy and you're finding every excuse under the sun to say no, then maybe there's an underlying reason why you really should say no: ie that he's just not the right guy.

I do firmly believe Pete proposing was because he felt Sam was slipping away from him. I think she even makes some apology before the proposal about not seeing him very much, work being crazy. Like I said, I don't think she was going to dump him in the park but I think her actions in possibly spending more time at work, at him not seeing much of her were indicative that the initial 'omg I have a relationship!' thrill was cooling with her; that it wasn't a novelty and it was becoming more of a chore.

And I don't think that Sam even consciously realised that because I agree that she'd effectively compartmentalised Pete into a box that said 'personal life', and he was there and in the background, and it was nice when she didn't have anything else more interesting to do at work to have someone to go out with, watch a movie with, to tell her she was special.

But I do think Pete subconsciously realised it and hence the sudden proposal and decision to move from Denver to be closer to her in Colorado Springs, because I think he sensed he was losing her.

[JenniferJF]

But I do think Pete subconsciously realised it and hence the sudden proposal and decision to move from Denver to be closer to her in Colorado Springs, because I think he sensed he was losing her.

Well.

Regardless of what Sam was actually going to do, I'll believe this. Pete acted because he felt insecure. Actually, that last sentence describes a lot of his personality

[Nynaeve506]

Well.

Regardless of what Sam was actually going to do, I'll believe this. Pete acted because he felt insecure. Actually, that last sentence describes a lot of his personality

Which is what makes me sad that the character wasn't better fleshed out - I sort of imagine them as two people who have been so hurt by other people (although other than Pete mentioning an ex-wife, we don't have anything else as to why his first marriage failed ) that they find another decent human being and try to fit a mold that neither one belongs in. Pete wasn't right for Sam but Sam wasn't right for Pete either. I imagine Pete didn't want to fail again and so he clung more desperately to her, pushing towards a deeper commitment.

And so we see Jack and Sam being well suited towards each other because they're cut from the same cloth. They both push away and I think in the end they realize that they need to knock it off, but at the same time, they have a bond that let's them know that no matter how far apart they are physically, they know they're together...

[JenniferJF]

Which is what makes me sad that the character wasn't better fleshed out - I sort of imagine them as two people who have been so hurt by other people (although other than Pete mentioning an ex-wife, we don't have anything else as to why his first marriage failed ) that they find another decent human being and try to fit a mold that neither one belongs in. Pete wasn't right for Sam but Sam wasn't right for Pete either. I imagine Pete didn't want to fail again and so he clung more desperately to her, pushing towards a deeper commitment.
.

I adore Sam's reaction to Pete as she's breaking up with him in Threads, during this bit of dialogue:

PETE: You were worth the risk. Don’t say I deserve better. Can’t get much better than you.
CARTER: That’s not true.

Because, from her expression, I think she really means it. Sam by then has figured out, I believe, that what she and Pete had wasn't 'the real thing' and so she really means he can do better. Not better than *her* necessarily, but better as a match for himself. He deserves a better *relationship* than the one he had with her. And I think her expression of sadness is also mixed with pity as she says, "That's not true" because Pete is still willing to accept less than that - just as she herself had been. In effect, he's selliing himself short in thinking he can't have 'the real thing' and in the end he leaves sad and frustrated without having realized that, in fact, Sam has just done both of them a favor.

It's a wonderful scene, IMHO, and an example of how this show can say so much with so little dialogue simply by letting the actors *act*.

[Nynaeve506]

I adore Sam's reaction to Pete as she's breaking up with him in Threads, during this bit of dialogue:

PETE: You were worth the risk. Don’t say I deserve better. Can’t get much better than you.
CARTER: That’s not true.

Because, from her expression, I think she really means it. Sam by then has figured out, I believe, that what she and Pete had wasn't 'the real thing' and so she really means he can do better. Not better than *her* necessarily, but better as a match for himself. He deserves a better *relationship* than the one he had with her. And I think her expression of sadness is also mixed with pity as she says, "That's not true" because Pete is still willing to accept less than that - just as she herself had been. In effect, he's selliing himself short in thinking he can't have 'the real thing' and in the end he leaves sad and frustrated without having realized that, in fact, Sam has just done both of them a favor.

It's a wonderful scene, IMHO, and an example of how this show can say so much with so little dialogue simply by letting the actors *act*.

I agree (surprise surprise LOL). Pete wants the home, the kids, the dog - not that those are bad things to want but they aren't who Sam *is* and he deserves someone who wants the same things he wants. And he did and ended up with the Wizards at Waverly Place (sorry every time I see the commercials I think of Pete :: giggles :: )

Jack and Sam are so right for each other

[Rachel500]

Which is why Kerry is so great as a comparison to Pete.

Pete would have held onto Sam for as long as he could because he was desperate to make it work with her regardless of the fact that he knew deep down that she wasn't sure, that there was *something*. And he would have been prepared to have been who she *settled* for.

Kerry, meanwhile, as soon as she knows exactly what Jack's baggage is and knows that she would be the consolation prize, has the self-respect and self-worth to know she deserves better - and promptly dumps Jack.

[JenniferJF]

Kerry, meanwhile, as soon as she knows exactly what Jack's baggage is and knows that she would be the consolation prize, has the self-respect and self-worth to know she deserves better - and promptly dumps Jack.

Oh, definitely. Kerry was a far stronger person than Pete was. She knew what she wanted - at least, she knew she didn't want to be a consolation prize. Which is such a nice change from about 99.9% of the 'other' characters on TV who are always content to be just that.

*shakes TV for being filled with stupidity*

*realizes she no longer has a TV because it was filled with stupidity*

[AstraPerAspera]

Another reason Kerry comes off so well is because not only does she let Jack go, in spite of her feelings for him, she also nudges him in the direction he needs to go if he is to have any chance of finding happiness himself.

That's class.

[Petra]

^^Which is why I like the idea of them becoming friends and Kerry sort of taking care of him when he's in Washington.

[AstraPerAspera]

Lol. I'm not sure I'd go *that* far.

There's one thing to let a guy go and know it's for the best.

It's another to subject yourself to the constant reminder of what might have been, especially knowing that he's with someone else. I know she said she didn't want it to affect the job...and I think it didn't. But I can't see them keeping up socially outside of those parameters...it would just be too awkward.

IMHO, of course.

[Rachel500]

I think it's an interesting question in terms of would Jack maintain a friendship with Kerry beyond the ending of their relationship, and how would that impact his relationship with Sam - would it impact his relationship with Sam?

Personally, I can't see Jack being *friends* with Kerry outside of their ongoing professional relationship. Primarily because I don't think they had an extensive friendship to build on given the timescales of when they met (just after Citizen Joe before Reckoning) to when we see Kerry waking up with Jack (in Threads). I tend to think having met Jack, Kerry liked him and invited him out to dinner and he found himself being cajoled into it, enjoying himself and they got together romantically very quickly (within a couple of weeks), and then their relationship only lasts a few weeks if that before Kerry sees Sam in Jack's backyard and promptly knows the score.

So while I can see Jack and Kerry being *friendly* if they ran into each other in Washington, I can't see them being friends per se.

And I think Jack would be aware that while there's ostensibly nothing wrong with meeting up with an ex for a friendly drink or dinner when your other half is off saving the world, it's probably not the best decision ever. Not because anything would happen but because it's not particularly fair to your other half to be spending time with an ex.

Because while I can't see Sam getting incredibly jealous (primarily because she trusts him and knows nothing would happen, that it would be friendship), I do think she'd be a little bemused/hurt/insecure at him spending time with another woman, especially one he'd been intimately involved with, when they as a couple are trying to do the long-distance thing and make their own relationship work.

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well but never mind.

[AstraPerAspera]

Oh I agree, Rachel. I also just think Jack wouldn't do it, period. Kerry was the end of a chapter in his life that he's definitely closed the book on. He wouldn't keep reminding any of them of that time--himself included--by maintaining a social friendship with her.

[Petra]

Because while I can't see Sam getting incredibly jealous (primarily because she trusts him and knows nothing would happen, that it would be friendship), I do think she'd be a little bemused/hurt/insecure at him spending time with another woman, especially one he'd been intimately involved with, when they as a couple are trying to do the long-distance thing and make their own relationship work.

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well but never mind.

Ok, firstly I must admit that I'm a firm believer into theory that our personal experiences in RL influence a little how we see TV characters; especially characters in our favourite series, in whom we are so invested emotionally. Therefore I am a bit biased, because it so happens that in RL one of my closest friends is my ex. And nobody, including his girlfriend, has any problems with it; on the contrary, I think it's what makes us such good friends.

Bearing this in mind, I can also easily see Jack/Kerry friendship, precisely because of the reason you gave as not working in their favour: time. They weren't together very long, they didn't have time to develop deep feelings for each other that would make their future meetings painful. But there's no doubt that they liked each other and got to know each other quite well (Jack isn't very open about his feelings and yet Kerry guessed what his "issue" was after a few weeks), so IMO they had a foundation on which to build friendship.

Now, Jack is alone in Washington, Sam is in Nevada/Colorado. They don't get to see each other very often. I know Jack isn't a very sociable guy, but I can't picture him living like a hermit in a city which he at the very least dislikes; I can't see him socialising much with top Washington brass either. I think he'd like to have a friend there, and only Kerry fits the bill. And who's to say she doesn't have someone else in her life at this point? She's a great lady.

As for Sam; maybe it's wishful thinking on my part but I can't see her getting overly jealous/insecure. She probably knows that it was Kerry who nudged Jack in the right direction. She definitely would want to make Jack's life in Washington as bearable as possible and finally, she herself is surrounded by guys. She's very friendly with Cam, she sees Barret quite often (and he's not shy about letting her know he's still interested) so I don't know why she can do that while Jack can't?

And lest I am misunderstood, by no means am I implying that Sam does something wrong; I just think that they are both surrounded by attractive people who are interested in them and IMO they are both mature enough to not worry about who goes out with whom because they trust each other and they'd like the other to have some friendly company when they can't be there (in person) for each other.

This post probably doesn't make much sense but it's after midnight and I'm too tired to think of some way to explain myself better. Sorry.

[JenniferJF]

So while I can see Jack and Kerry being *friendly* if they ran into each other in Washington, I can't see them being friends per se.

And I think Jack would be aware that while there's ostensibly nothing wrong with meeting up with an ex for a friendly drink or dinner when your other half is off saving the world, it's probably not the best decision ever. Not because anything would happen but because it's not particularly fair to your other half to be spending time with an ex.

Because while I can't see Sam getting incredibly jealous (primarily because she trusts him and knows nothing would happen, that it would be friendship), I do think she'd be a little bemused/hurt/insecure at him spending time with another woman, especially one he'd been intimately involved with, when they as a couple are trying to do the long-distance thing and make their own relationship work.

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well but never mind.

No, makes sense to me. Jack - being Jack - would probably have no problems with it. However, the ladies certainly would for the reasons Rachel and APA mentioned. It's completely illogical and purely emotional but there it is I think the one person most likely to be employed by Sam to watch over Jack - the quite obvious natural choice, really - is Cassie. She could do it without Jack even realizing she was, and if he did, he still wouldn't mind.

"Sam told me to get you out of the house."

*grumble* *grumble* "Fine."

[Rachel500]

Ok, firstly I must admit that I'm a firm believer into theory that our personal experiences in RL influence a little how we see TV characters; especially characters in our favourite series, in whom we are so invested emotionally. Therefore I am a bit biased, because it so happens that in RL one of my closest friends is my ex. And nobody, including his girlfriend, has any problems with it; on the contrary, I think it's what makes us such good friends.

Bearing this in mind, I can also easily see Jack/Kerry friendship, precisely because of the reason you gave as not working in their favour: time. They weren't together very long, they didn't have time to develop deep feelings for each other that would make their future meetings painful. But there's no doubt that they liked each other and got to know each other quite well (Jack isn't very open about his feelings and yet Kerry guessed what his "issue" was after a few weeks), so IMO they had a foundation on which to build friendship.

<snip>

And lest I am misunderstood, by no means am I implying that Sam does something wrong; I just think that they are both surrounded by attractive people who are interested in them and IMO they are both mature enough to not worry about who goes out with whom because they trust each other and they'd like the other to have some friendly company when they can't be there (in person) for each other.

This post probably doesn't make much sense but it's after midnight and I'm too tired to think of some way to explain myself better. Sorry.

I decided to wait until morning before replying.

Firstly, I think you're right RL does tend to play into how we interpret characters and situations. And in the interests of full disclosure, I've seen plenty long distance relationships flounder for other people because one partner spends a lot of their time with a friend of the opposite sex, and it causes problems.

Having said that, I do think it's perfectly possible for two people to remain friends having had a relationship and for their new partner not to have an issue with it. For me, the times when this kind of situation works is when you have two people who were in a relationship for a while, (who may even have been friends before that), who stay friends afterwards and a new partner comes along where effectively the friendship is a fait accompli for the new partner and they have to accept it because its part of the package of the person they're with. This isn't the situation with Jack, Kerry and Sam.

Fundamentally, I think we disagree over whether there is a basis for friendship between Jack and Kerry. In my mind, just because they liked each other and Kerry was astute enough to work out Jack loved Sam, the maximum four-six weeks they might have spent as dating/lovers doesn't suggest to me that there was a basis for a *friendship*. To be friendly, yes. To be an acknowledged friend to the other who would be a confidante and ally in a strange town, no.

Setting aside that, let's say they became friends during their very short courtship, I can't see Jack making an effort to maintain that friendship given the scene that occured in his backyard and the hurt Sam had written all over her face at seeing him with Kerry. Because Jack in that scene does act as though he feels he's betrayed/betraying Sam to me (not that he has betrayed her because he was single, Sam was taken and Jack was clearly available to have a relationship with another woman if he wished just that he feels that way), and given that I don't think he'd want the reminder of that hurt/betrayal in their lives. I also think Jack wasn't unaware that he hadn't been completely fair in his dealings with Kerry either (he had begun a relationship with her knowing he was in love with Sam) so I do think there was be some lingering embarrassment over the ending. Therefore, even if he and Kerry ran into each other in Washington and she attempted to be a friend to him, I can't see him engaging and accepting her friendship.

Equally, I do think Sam would have an issue with him being friends with Kerry. Let's say Jack actually tells her Kerry dumped him and gave him the nudge to get together with Sam (which actually I think is very unlikely) or she finds out some other way (running into Kerry in the ladies maybe and Kerry unwittingly informing her), I think she associates Kerry with that awful moment in the backyard which not only hurt Sam deeply in terms of realising her own stupidity about Jack and how she felt about him, but was also the moment she found out her Dad had collapsed. So I can't really see her being entirely thrilled of having Kerry remain in their lives as a reminder of that even though I agree that Sam wouldn't be jealous per se.

Then there's the whole piece around Sam and Jack trying to make their relationship work. For me a large part of the reason why they don't get together for so long is Sam's insecurity over whether Jack loves her. And although when they get together, she's assured he does, a long distance factor can test that to the limit because you don't have the constant reassurance of seeing them, feeling their love.

So I can see Sam continuing to be slightly insecure about her relationship with Jack in the early days despite knowing he loves her and will always be there for her. And while Jack being friends with Kerry would probably not be a big deal *now* some years on, I think in those early days, Sam would have felt some insecurity over Jack spending a lot of time with an ex (especially if he spent more time with her than Sam herself gets to spend with him on a regular basis), even if outwardly she said it was fine and knew deep down that there was nothing to it. Again, not jealousy per se but rather insecurity. Especially because a friendship denotes a certain level of emotional intimacy, of confidences and experiences being shared, of fondness and respect.

All of which may well have caused angst and issues in Jack and Sam's relationship had Jack maintained a friendship with Kerry.

I also think there is a huge difference between Jack potentially spending time in Washington with an ex-lover who then becomes a friend, and Sam spending time with Daniel and Teal'c who they've both been friends with for years, and who Sam has never had a romantic relationship with, or her spending time with Daniel, Teal'c and Cam as a team. And actually I can see Jack potentially being a little jealous of Cam not least because he's the one watching Sam's back out in the field in a way he can't do anymore.

So, personally, I can't see Jack and Kerry being friends in Washington. As for Jack being alone and lonely, I tend to think that Hammond introduced him to a poker group as part of the handover, or that Jack occasionally gets together for a beer with old buddies like Ferretti or maybe a certain Leroy Jethro Gibbs...