Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Rachel500]

*snipped*

What they’re *really* talking about is them--the whole conversation isn't *just* about their situation of being stuck on the planet...it's about their situation of being stuck in this kind of emotional limbo…and Jack realizes it when he tells her that she’s in withdrawal…and so is he….except it's not from the Light…it’s from each other.

<snipped>

I also believe there’s some evidence which further supports this at the beginning of this episode as well, because, imho, Sam really doesn’t take Jack’s betting on her very well at all. It’s more of a disgusted reaction than a bemused one, imho…like his antics are getting on her nerves. And the fact that he’d even wager about her work-a-holic-ness suggests almost a similar frame of mind, I think, because while Jack might normally tease her about it, betting on it takes it to a whole different level of almost mocking it…and mocking her along with it. So I almost see them as starting out the mission at swords ends, a result of the tension they’re feeling that’s been building in the months since they thought they’d had to try to tuck those feelings oh so carefully back into their respective boxes.

And that’s why, by the time they get to that walk on the beach, everything has reached a boiling point. Yes, the addiction to the light itself precipitates their reactions, but what it boils down to, in the end, is their absolute frustration with having to live the way they’ve been living since BtS…because, with the rare exception of Serpent’s Venom, they’ve been *very* careful to keep out of each other’s way, and in fact in almost every episode between BtS and The Light, the two of them haven’t really worked together at all…they’ve been split up. So when Jack finally tells her that she’s going thru withdrawal…and that he is too…it’s withdrawal from each other that he’s talking about…and the fact that they literally grab onto each other there only highlights, imho, the need they have for each other, both emotionally and physically, and, like Rachel, I really wonder what would have happened next had Teal’c not interrupted them.

<snipped>.

So, I majorly snipped sections of this but kept what I wanted to comment on.

On the first scene, I disagree that they are at swords pointed. I don't see what you see in Sam's expression. I see some *OMG you bet on me!* annoyance but no real anger or resentment about it. Similarly with Jack, if he was mocking her workaholic tendencies really, he would have bet that she would go not stay. To me his bet is more of a hope that actually she won't put work first. So, I tend to see this as good-natured poking at each other. In all honesty, I tend to think that they bet on each other's behaviour quite often within the team so its nothing new.

However, I do agree that despite the bantering overtone, that 'beneath the surface' there was some festering resentments over their entire situation bubbling that later come out in the argument. Sam's comment of 'that would suit you' is very resentful and that Jack holds her to protocol also shows some pettiness on his part.

I will also disagree that Jack realises that he's talking about them when he says they're in withdrawal. I think you're right that subconsciously the words are about them and their situation but I don't think Jack's consciously aware of it.

PS. Nice to see you!

[Petra]

I'm just going to say that I absolutely love the first scene, when they tease each other. It's probably the most flirty, lighthearted banter they've ever had on the show. I adore how they are both all smiles and fun.

The scene on the beach is also great, although I go back and forth on its meaning.

And overall, The Light is another of those episodes not loved by the fandom at large, but for which I have a soft spot.

[Zoser]

I like The Light but like Rachel really do not care for Loren - yes, he is annoying and too old.
I thought this was a very interesting premise and wished they had explored this Goa'uld pleasure palace more, and the story line of addiction (although not for the first time - Need). I've always read into this Jack and Sam's addiction for one another - pleasurable yet forbidden and sure to get them into so much trouble.)

I like APA's idea of the contrast of BTS and The Light.

[AstraPerAspera]

I think, Rachel, that this is one case where we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think the initial scene starts out rather light, when Sam asks what it is Jack bet on...but when they get to the gate room and she realizes it's her, I really do think she's annoyed. Perhaps "swords ends" is a bit over-stating, it but I definitely feel tension between them that's interrupted when the unfortunate redshirt runs into the kawoosh and suddenly they have a tragedy on their hands. *shrug* But...that's just mho, of course.

As for the beach, I see less of Jack being petty (if I recall, he's less affected by the light than the rest of them...) than trying to reign Sam in when it's obvious that she's the one getting a bit out of control. He sees the danger signs of the boundary she's starting to cross and is trying to keep that barrier between them in place, which only adds to Sam's frustration...and while he may indeed only mean, at first, that she's in withdrawal from the light, as he's standing there holding onto her vest and she to his...his "and so am I" comes almost as an afterthought, and I believe it's then that he truly comprehends...in fact, I'm of the opinion that at that moment they *both* do...that this conversation has had nothing to do with their situation of being stranded and everything to do with the absolute frustration of where they stand in their relationship with each other.

Again...though, just mho.

[slurredspeech]

Waay too late here for me to multi-quote and be all deep and meaningful (though I'm getting the greatest kick out of reading you guys; simply lovely <33), but I just wanted to briefly comment on this,

I also believe there’s some evidence which further supports this at the beginning of this episode as well, because, imho, Sam really doesn’t take Jack’s betting on her very well at all. It’s more of a disgusted reaction than a bemused one, imho…like his antics are getting on her nerves. And the fact that he’d even wager about her work-a-holic-ness suggests almost a similar frame of mind, I think, because while Jack might normally tease her about it, betting on it takes it to a whole different level of almost mocking it…and mocking her along with it. So I almost see them as starting out the mission at swords ends, a result of the tension they’re feeling that’s been building in the months since they thought they’d had to try to tuck those feelings oh so carefully back into their respective boxes.

Really? That scene has to be one of my personal favorites, if you don't count all the usual suspects. It's that kind of banter and playfulness, the way that I imagine the two of them might be like in a relationship, on a day-to-day basis. It takes me to a happy place, is what I'm saying.
Heh. Talk about seeing a scene differently.

O hai, everyone!

[UhSir]

Loved your write-up.

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l...4at61014PM.png

to this

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l...4at61122PM.png

Absolutely right on.

Oh, and it goes on (the look between them) for almost 10 seconds! LOL, cool.

And when Teal'c interrupts them they don't let go of each other either. I always thought that to be very telling.

I don't have anything else to add. I'm mostly in agreement with AstraPerAspera. My difference is with the bit where Sam reacts to finding out she's the bet. I don't think she's angry about it. I get similar situations at my house between my husband and our 19-year-old son and before I know it I'm caught up in it only realizing they are playing after I catch their eyes twinkling.

But the beach scene is definitely about them personally. *points to my comment about the quoted pics*

[Cagranosalis]

Fantastic review Rachel, and great posints form everyone as usual. I really like these shipepr reviews for the great debates they generate.

I think the initial scene starts out rather light, when Sam asks what it is Jack bet on...but when they get to the gate room and she realizes it's her, I really do think she's annoyed. Perhaps "swords ends" is a bit over-stating, it but I definitely feel tension between them that's interrupted when the unfortunate redshirt runs into the kawoosh and suddenly they have a tragedy on their hands. *shrug* But...that's just mho, of course.

I had to quote this just to say how much I chuckled at the redshirt comment (oh so true) but also, to sort of agree... and disgaree. I do think Sam was probably annoyed but in that long standing friends/good natured way that you might be when you are being teased by your brothers, say. I do think that scene is far more friendship than flirty... although, there is the unercurrent that Jack is the one hoping she's opt for leisure time (maybe with him?)

And when Teal'c interrupts them they don't let go of each other either. I always thought that to be very telling.

I don't have anything else to add. I'm mostly in agreement with AstraPerAspera. My difference is with the bit where Sam reacts to finding out she's the bet. I don't think she's angry about it. I get similar situations at my house between my husband and our 19-year-old son and before I know it I'm caught up in it only realizing they are playing after I catch their eyes twinkling.

But the beach scene is definitely about them personally. *points to my comment about the quoted pics*

Yes, I'm definitely in agreement there too. And also this might signal the point they start to realise leaving it in the room is not quite as easy as it first seems.

That's all I have really. Everyone else said it best!

[JenniferJF]

I had to quote this just to say how much I chuckled at the redshirt comment (oh so true) but also, to sort of agree... and disgaree. I do think Sam was probably annoyed but in that long standing friends/good natured way that you might be when you are being teased by your brothers, say. I do think that scene is far more friendship than flirty... although, there is the unercurrent that Jack is the one hoping she's opt for leisure time (maybe with him?)

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say Sam and Jack were 'at sword points', but I do think there's an underlying tension to that scene at the beginning of the episode - an unspoken bitterness on Jack's part that Sam is once again choosing science and work (the soldier and scientist) over her personal life. Not *necessarily* with him, of course, but I do feel there's a sort of resignation on his part that that's who she is mixed with a bit of hope that maybe she's not and he's wrong (which is why I think he bet she wouldn't - he was hoping maybe things had changed a bit in BtS I think). It's really the same conflict which we see back in Nemesis with "This *is* fun" when she rejects his initial fishing invitation and which only gets resolved in Moebius when Jack finally exerts the personal influence he's finally realized and accepted and, more or less, *insists* Sam go fishing with him. I've always seen it, in a way, as if for years Jack was standing outside Sam's proverbial door asking: "Can Sam come out and play?" and it's only when he walks inside and pulls her out that she finally goes... Because I think, from her point-of-view, she was waiting for him to do that all along.

In fact, I just mentioned elsewhere last night that I think the key difference between the two fishing scenes at the end of Threads and the end of Moebius may be that, as we see in that final lab scene in Moebius, Sam and Jack have had that final resolution of their 'to fish or not to fish' - which really translates into 'to have a life or to not have a life' - there in Daniel's lab at the end of Moebius. Sam literally had the Single Coolest doohickey ever sitting there in front of her, a fully functional ZPM, and yet Jack was able to exert his personal influence over her to insist she go fishing with him instead. So, Jack is more relaxed and almost smug about 'we should have done this years ago' because, in the final post-Moebius timeline, Sam and Jack have had that final 'confrontation' over her love of fiddling with doohickey's and her love for *him*, and Jack is absolutely certain that she is now putting him and their relationship above her science. And I think that is the key difference between the two scenes. Not that she *wouldn't* have eventually been forced to choose between Jack and science/soldier in the original timeline, but she *hadn't* yet, and so Jack didn't have that additional proof of her love and commitment he has at the end of Moebius.

Which is *way* beyond the scope of the present conversation except I really see that conversation there at the beginning of The Light to be mostly just another chapter in their ongoing conflict between prioritizing the personal or the professional, and I do think there's a certain underlying bitterness mixed with a resignation that that's simply the way it is and Jack is determined to make the best of it and enjoy whatever time he can get with the 'Sam' he's got. And I agree it's *that* which they are really referring to later on the beach... Because I think what their conversation on the beach highlights, beyond the idea that they're both in withdrawal from each other, is that neither of them understands the others motivation. Sam is sensitive about Jack's criticism of her wanting to work instead of, as she sees, it, waste time (because she doesn't *really get* fishing - as a time waster to relax and just be herself as it represents her personal side - yet), and actually feels, in wanting her to 'get a life' he's implying she doesn't have one - that she's somehow not good enough, and ironically she's sensitive about that because she herself hasn't *yet* realized she does, in fact, need a life. And Jack sees her putting emphasis on the professional vs. personal as denying *him* - he believes she values science and career more than she does him.

At least, that's how I see it

[EvenstarSRV]

Which is *way* beyond the scope of the present conversation except I really see that conversation there at the beginning of The Light to be mostly just another chapter in their ongoing conflict between prioritizing the personal or the professional, and I do think there's a certain underlying bitterness mixed with a resignation that that's simply the way it is and Jack is determined to make the best of it and enjoy whatever time he can get with the 'Sam' he's got. And I agree it's *that* which they are really referring to later on the beach... Because I think what their conversation on the beach highlights, beyond the idea that they're both in withdrawal from each other, is that neither of them understands the others motivation. Sam is sensitive about Jack's criticism of her wanting to work instead of, as she sees, it, waste time (because she doesn't *really get* fishing - as a time waster to relax and just be herself as it represents her personal side - yet), and actually feels, in wanting her to 'get a life' he's implying she doesn't have one - that she's somehow not good enough, and ironically she's sensitive about that because she herself hasn't *yet* realized she does, in fact, need a life. And Jack sees her putting emphasis on the professional vs. personal as denying *him* - he believes she values science and career more than she does him.

At least, that's how I see it

Interesting discussion everyone. I've been following along and I keep seeing this angle being brought up, that Jack is somehow jealous or bitter or uphappy because Sam spends a lot of time at her job. And I really just don't get that. To me, like Jack says later in the series, he wants Sam to be happy, and she's apparently quite happy playing with her doohickeys and doing extra exploring on her downtime. He teases her about that, Other Side, Curse, Light, Ascension, etc, but I've never seen him as bitter or jealous about it. A bit disappointed perhaps, but why would Jack be bitter that the person he cares for is happy and excited about her work?

And why does it have been an either/or for Sam between valuing Jack and valuing her science and career? Or why does it have to be 'wrong' when she does seem to prioritize her love of science over her feelings for Jack? Considering that a relationship with Jack is just not a realistic possibility at this point in the series, isn't it right that Sam enjoys and is happy with what she currently has rather than give that up and then still not be able to pursue anything further with Jack? And I just don't think Jack would be resentful or bitter that Sam does continue to enjoy what happiness she gets from her job and their friendship, esp since they both know that their current circumstances are out of their control and are not likely to change in the near future. I love that scene with the bet for exactly that reason, it's not exactly what they really want, but the light-hearted, friendly banter is the most they can current get so they'll both enjoy it as much as possible.

[josiane]

My week has been crazy and I haven't had time to catch up here until now, but I mostly wanted to applaud APA's post (as well as squee because APA was here!). Fantastic insight into the contrast with BtS - not a connection I'd made but wow, that's a fabulous interpretation

Like lots of the others though, I don't find that first scene particularly tense. I don't think it's uberflirty, more friendflirty, but I've never really got a sense of genuine annoyance. I do take APA's point about there being more of a tension at this point though

OK, will be back later with the next write-up...

[JenniferJF]

Interesting discussion everyone. I've been following along and I keep seeing this angle being brought up, that Jack is somehow jealous or bitter or uphappy because Sam spends a lot of time at her job. And I really just don't get that. To me, like Jack says later in the series, he wants Sam to be happy, and she's apparently quite happy playing with her doohickeys and doing extra exploring on her downtime. He teases her about that, Other Side, Curse, Light, Ascension, etc, but I've never seen him as bitter or jealous about it. A bit disappointed perhaps, but why would Jack be bitter that the person he cares for is happy and excited about her work?

He's not *really* bitter, and he is happy she's happy, but he does mention the idea she should 'get a life' an awful lot for someone who really does think she's found a healthy balance between the two.

And why does it have been an either/or for Sam between valuing Jack and valuing her science and career? Or why does it have to be 'wrong' when she does seem to prioritize her love of science over her feelings for Jack?

It's not that it has to be either or, but I do think that Sam *herself* finally realizes she doesn't have a proper balance. In fact, I think that's the major point of what she learns in the episode Grace. And I agree, it's not an either or but has to be the balance which is the most fulfilling to Sam as a unique individual, but I think the major point of Grace - and what Jacob later says in reality to Sam as he's dying - is that she hasn't had a proper balance between work and her personal lif - that she's been sacrificing *who* she is for *what* she is, and that she needs to find that balance in order to be totally happy and satisfied.

The dialogue while they are fishing, then, becomes important: "This is great... we should have done this years ago," is, IMHO, Sam's realization that she's needed that proper balance and that she's needed 'fishing' in her life. She's, ultimately, absolutely glad she gave up messing around with that ZPM in order to go fishing. And the more relaxed and content and confident Sam we see after S8 is, IMHO, a Sam who has finally achieved that proper balance.

Or, as I've said elsewhere in a bit of an essay, she's finally found Grace.

[josiane]

Banner by Jasmina

Synopsis

Jack and Teal'c are sent to supervise a scientific expedition on a moon, much to Jack's disgust, while Daniel is off doing his thing elsewhere and Sam is guest-lecturing at the Air Force Academy. While she's there, she encounters a cadet, Jennifer Hailey, who is incredibly smart, particularly when it comes to theoretical astrophysics, but who is also having troubles conforming to the military rules and expectations for her. Sam decides to take her under her wing and give her a trip through the stargate, figuring that if she can give her a taste of her potential future she'll go back on the straight and narrow and be a guaranteed new recruit for the SGC once she graduates. Sam and Hailey go through to the moon where Jack and Teal'c are babysitting the scientists, who have found a strange buzzy energy bug that can zap right through solid matter. They had trapped one inside an electromagnetic field to study, but Jack makes them let it go. Then two of the scientists have a less pleasant encounter with the bugs, who swarm around and through one of them, killing him. SG1, Hailey and the scientists hide in the aluminium hut, and electrify the walls to keep the bugs out, in the same way they'd previously trapped the one they were studying, but they don't know how much longer the generator will last. So Jack decides to make a run for the gate, after being zatted to keep the bugs at bay for a bit, so that they can escape.

Analysis

This episode is really one long meditation on the conflict between science and the military, the two sides of the Stargate Program. I think it's particularly significant that this takes place in a Sam-centric episode, and also that Daniel is absent, so it really becomes an exploration of the two aspects of her role and shows how she has to balance these conflicting impulses. It's not a character study like Grace is, but does really provide a lot of context for understanding Sam's actions and motivations in her professional life. The conflict is most obviously played out in the conflict between Jack and Hamilton - it's set up right at the start of the episode with Jack's dissatisfaction at being sent on a mission to babysit scientists, and Hamilton is equally determined not to respect the military people right from the very first time we see him. But more significantly, we also see the conflict played out within Jennifer Hailey's character - railing against the military restrictions on her scientific inclinations and ambitions. We are also obviously expected to draw parallels between Hailey and Sam, and wonder whether Sam was as frustrated with the military in her younger days. I think she will have been, though maybe not quite to the extent that Hailey is portrayed as being, as it fits entirely with what we've seen, particularly of her past relationship with her father and the way she views the Air Force as almost a frame for her life - a set of rules and a distinct career path to follow. The Sam we see today is just a more mature version of Hailey, who has learnt through experience that sometimes science has to be restricted in order to ensure the safety of herself and other people. And we see that most clearly in the moment when she explains to Hailey why Jack makes the decision he does. Again it's interesting that Daniel is absent here, as to some extent Hailey plays the Daniel role, not seeing all the implications of her focus on the science/knowledge that Jack, Sam and Teal'c do.

Other thoughts... General Kerrigan clearly knows nothing about the Stargate program at this point, and yet by less than a year later, he is supplying batches of cadets fresh out of the Academy to join up. I presume that this link is established following Hailey's little trip in this episode.

Implications for Sam and Jack

Not a lot really, just to note that there really is quite a noticeable degree of comfort between them in this episode again - the scene where Sam and Hailey arrive on the moon to be greeted by Jack is lovely, and actually one of the scenes where Sam and Jack come across really rather 'coupley' - it's almost 'hi honey, how's your day?', and I always get the impression Hailey is rather taken aback and impressed at the obvious closeness she sees (and she also clearly warms to Jack very fast and finds him amusing - interesting perhaps from a shipper point of view if she is mini!Sam).

There's also the understanding Sam displays in her explanation to Hailey of Jack's thought-processes. They're clearly on the same page, and, as we've seen before (The Other Side springs to mind particularly at the moment), Sam really does understand how Jack's mind works and the constraints he operates under. And he likewise understands that she understands when to dial down the science - his reaction to Hailey's pushing on the question of whether she or Sam is right about the reason for the bugs behaviour is telling, I think. Sam wouldn't push on that point, because she understands that it doesn't matter in terms of the decision Jack needs to make. Sam might be prone to technobabble, and Jack might cut her off very frequently, but she does understand and doesn't argue. Again this is mainly showing her understanding of the military needs and constraints, but from a shipper point of view it is part of how well they understand each other.

Of course there's another aspect to Sam's acceptance of Jack's decision, because yet again he is choosing to sacrifice himself in order to save the rest of the team. She's clearly not happy, and concerned that he's putting himself in danger, but she's resigned because she knows that for him, that's the only choice he could make, and that he couldn't live with the alternative.

[UhSir]

He's not *really* bitter, and he is happy she's happy, but he does mention the idea she should 'get a life' an awful lot for someone who really does think she's found a healthy balance between the two.

It's not that it has to be either or, but I do think that Sam *herself* finally realizes she doesn't have a proper balance. In fact, I think that's the major point of what she learns in the episode Grace. And I agree, it's not an either or but has to be the balance which is the most fulfilling to Sam as a unique individual, but I think the major point of Grace - and what Jacob later says in reality to Sam as he's dying - is that she hasn't had a proper balance between work and her personal lif - that she's been sacrificing *who* she is for *what* she is, and that she needs to find that balance in order to be totally happy and satisfied.

The dialogue while they are fishing, then, becomes important: "This is great... we should have done this years ago," is, IMHO, Sam's realization that she's needed that proper balance and that she's needed 'fishing' in her life. She's, ultimately, absolutely glad she gave up messing around with that ZPM in order to go fishing. And the more relaxed and content and confident Sam we see after S8 is, IMHO, a Sam who has finally achieved that proper balance.

Or, as I've said elsewhere in a bit of an essay, she's finally found Grace.

Sam burying herself in work is most fulfilling to her at this time. Three years from this time she'll be changing her mind and trying to do something about it. But at this time, as EvenstarSRV points out, she is more satisfied by concentrating on her work than her personal life which she knows is riddled with problems but, because the solutions aren't all that great for her right now, she's settled for not "fixing" her personal life.

Jack is not so shallow as to take any of this as rejection. There are enough times where he sees affirmation from Sam of deeper feelings so he knows where he stands. That's why we see them playing the "getting to know you" game here. Had the guy not killed himself we would have seen their conversation end up in smiles. Jack's body language is already submissive, he was not going to verbally defend himself. He would have given her a shrug and a goofy smile and she would have walked away soaking it all in.

Jack saying to her that she needs to "get a life" well... can someone tell me how many times he's actually said that to her up to this point because I can only remember one time. And that time he said, "Didn't I order you to get a life?" which is clearly said in jest because of the "Didn't I order you" part, not a criticism of her life choices. Or are we counting the implied times, such as the fishing invitations? Up to this point she's not offended or feeling attacked by these. She enjoys the attention but she's decided that it's best for her to focus in a different, "safer" direction right now. Sam is not swayed by what anyone else, including Jack, thinks about what she chooses to do on her free time. Two or three years from this time she'll think about it and start reacting, and then she's reacting more to her personal emotions than to the outside forces that are stimulating them. But that's the future. Right now she's content with burying herself in her work.

[UhSir]

Prodigy

Favorite Quote
Hey, Carter. Thought I'd come be your welcoming committee.
Thank you, sir. How are you?
Ah, the back's acting up a little actually. The knees, you know, always…

Sam and Jack Stuff
I got nothin'. The quote above is as shippy as it gets.

[Rachel500]

Prodigy

Generally

Again, not a particular favourite.

A lot of that had to do with the casting of Hailey. I just found her annoying and incredibly small especially when standing side by side with Sam (don't get me wrong; nothing against small people and I'm small myself but I would have thought there was a height requirement for Air Force cadets). Again, I think a different actress may have made this episode work better.

Having said that, I actually really enjoyed Hailey in S5's Proving Ground. So I tend to view Prodigy now with a much more mellow attitude.

I'll also agree with Josi. I think much of the overall theme is about military versus science. And I applaud the insight that this was an examination of Sam's conflicting sides as well as the more overt examination between Hamilton and Jack, Sam and Hailey. It gives the episode more depth.

On a trivia note, this is the first time we see Bill Lee.

Sam and Jack

A couple of things that strike me; one is the scene where he turns up to greet Sam and Hailey. There is such a relaxed and friendly vibe between the two of them. You can almost sense that Jack volunteered eagerly to go greet Sam because he really wanted to see her. It is as Josi said, almost that 'honey, how was your day?' vibe.

The other thing is how Jack turns to Sam for a solution when they're attacked just like he always does. It's an automatic - fix it reaction that we see from him a lot.

I also quite like how Sam in explaining why Jack has made the decision he has to Hailey is clearly not happy about him risking his life but understands why.

Other than that, there really isn't anything here too much. The calm before the storm perhaps?