Announcement

**josiane** · 19 February 2010, 10:09 AM

Interrupting the discussion to ask, where are we with the rewatch? I have it down that I should be doing the write-up for 2010 tonight, but earlier in the week Cags said something about pushing the schedule back a bit because Shannon's crazybusy? Is that still the case, or should I go ahead with 2010 tonight anyway? Happy either way, I've just lost track

**Cagranosalis** · 19 February 2010, 12:46 PM

Err....

Honestly, can't remember. Shannon posted Chain Reaction on Wednesday so... how about you do yours tonight and then, ongoing we can go:

Fri 19th Feb, 2010: Josiane
Mon 22nd Feb, Absolute Power: Cags
Weds 24th, The Light: Rachel500
Fri 26th, Prodigy: Josiane
Mon 1st Mar, Entity: Nyenave506
Wed 3rd Mar, Double Jeopardy: Cags
Fri 5th Mar, Exodus: Josiane

(Shannon, if it works better for you, workwise, to post Entity on the Sunday rather than the Monday, then do so, because we get an exra day for the weekend anyway

)

**josiane** · 19 February 2010, 12:47 PM

Sweet, thanks Cags. Will get it posted in a bit

**Nynaeve506** · 19 February 2010, 03:16 PM

Maybe someone should send me a reminder Saturday night LOL - but yeah I'll probably be posting on Sunday. Although I think my recent review got pummeled by the S9 & 10 conversation LOL

**Cagranosalis** · 19 February 2010, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Nynaeve506 View Post

Maybe someone should send me a reminder Saturday night LOL - but yeah I'll probably be posting on Sunday. Although I think my recent review got pummeled by the S9 & 10 conversation LOL

Yeah it did somewhat. Bet your next one doesn't though.

I'll send you a reminder.

**josiane** · 19 February 2010, 04:24 PM

OK, I'm not sure I've entirely done this justice, but it's late and I'm half watching the skeleton so it'll have to do!

Banner by Blacky Kitten

Synopsis

The year is 2010. The place is Washington DC. President Kinsey addresses a gathering of the great and the good to celebrate ten years of the Earth's alliance with the Aschen, an advanced alien race who have saved us from the Goa'uld and given us all sorts of fancy things like long life and health and really groovy video screens, but taken away any colour from our clothing. But all is not well in the super-aschenified Earth. First Sam discovers that she can't get pregnant, despite the Aschen doctor telling her everything was fine, and that an awful lot of people are in the same boat. SG1 (minus Jack, who is conspicuously absent, but plus Janet) get together over dinner and realise that the Aschen duped them and are slowly wiping us out. And they should Do Something About It. Sam goes to talk to Jack, who has retired to his cabin to fish and contemplate dog-ownership after his dire predictions of how the Aschen were totally too good to be true fell on deaf ears. A scene of much angst ensues, followed by a scene of much comedy as Sam and Daniel go undercover on the SGC tour in order to steal crucial gate travelling equipment like GDOs. Jack is there (win) but the real GDOs aren't (fail). So Sam tries to sweet-talk hubby Joe into stealing the real one back from ~~Slimy traitor~~ President Kinsey. During the course of their conversation Joe lets slip that he knew about the Aschen's penchant for mass sterilisation, but that it was never meant to be such a high percentage of the population. Back at work, Sam tricks her Aschen overlord into giving her the password to his fancy sun monitoring computer, so they can find out when it's next going to ~~beep~~ flare and they can send a message back to their former selves, like they did in the summer of 69. Hubby Joe is not over-impressed with this plan, but SG1 is SG1 and goes ahead, nobly sacrificing themselves in order to warn themselves not to do what they did and therefore save themselves from this Aschenified and sterile future. Back in 2000, SG1 are puzzled to receive the note, but heed Jack's dire warning and lock the Aschen planet out of the dialling computer. But of course, you can never keep a good baddie down...

Analysis

I always love AU episodes - the exploration of the what-ifs always intrigues me, and I always enjoy seeing what they reflect of 'our' timeline/universe. 2010 is a real case of 'be careful what you wish for' - certainly by this point in the series, where they've been fighting the Goa'uld for several years and there's still no sign of ever defeating them, they must have been wishing for some great saviour to turn up out of the blue, and you can see why Earth gave in to temptation and allied with the Aschen.

The fact that it is Jack that holds out is entirely in character I feel - he's always been the one that has the gut instincts and more often than not they turn out to be right. It's interesting though that this time he didn't take the rest of SG1 with him, although of course we don't know all the ins and outs of what happened back when the Aschen first turned up. I can see why the others did get taken in by the Aschen - the fight against the Goa'uld is more personal for Daniel and Teal'c, and so a deus ex machina solution would be welcomed by them both I'm sure. And Sam I think must have been won over by the combination of the shiny technology (she's always prone to tech lust) and Joe. And as we know, with Jack, when he gets hurt he gets defensive, and pushes people away, and so you probably got a vicious cycle.

Overall this is a great episode - really good teaminess, good to see so much of Janet, and ship and humour aplenty.

Implications for Sam and Jack

The cabin scene is obviously the big one - you can feel the weight of some hefty history radiating from the screen as they confront one another. I don't think it's any surprise that it's Sam that goes to talk to Jack to try and recruit him - we don't see it of course but I suspect she was nominated, and probably for the exact same reason that it's always Sam who is called upon as the 'big gun' when Jack is really digging his heels in and they need to change his mind - because when Sam really asks him, he can't say no. So Jack's reaction to Sam in this episode is telling both because he does refuse, at first (showing that things aren't the same now, that whatever has happened between them has damaged their relationship at some point along the line) and because he is persuaded, in the end - he does come back and help out because she asked him; despite his protestations, SG1 and the fate of the Earth and Sam do still have a pull for him.

We're only given sketchy information about what happened to make Jack turn his back on SG1, but he clearly feels let down and betrayed by his team and again, by Sam in particular, as he makes sure to remind her that she turned her back on him. He's obviously resentful, and not just about the fact that he warned everyone - the way he says 'your dearly beloved Ambassador' just drips with venom. Jack's attitude to Joe is the clearest indication I think that something happened between Sam and Jack in this timeline. Everything about his attitude to Joe, and Joe's attitude to him, screams jealousy and a desire to mark territory. Another thing that supports this, and I find interesting, is the way Jack questions Sam about erasing the timeline - "what happens to the last ten years?" There's an extra dimension to this if they did have a relationship that didn't work out, because erasing the timeline would both put them back to how they were before they met the Aschen, but would also mean their relationship never happened at all.

Another thing that's just occurred to me is to note that it's interesting we get this right after Chain Reaction and the way we've just all discussed the way Sam and Jack fight very hard there to get their professional relationship back and don't even consider the opportunity for a personal one. Is this another way in which 2010 is a failure then, if Sam and Jack did choose the personal over the professional? Perhaps if they'd acted more like they did in Chain Reaction this wouldn't have happened? I don't know, but I'm a fully paid-up subscriber to VSS's AU theory, which shows that our Sam and Jack got together at precisely the right time for the world to not get destroyed, seeing as all the AUs that show the opposite to their current status show the end of the world.

I should comment on Sam's relationship with Joe here too. Sam here does seem to have found the life outside the SGC that she looks for later with Pete, and I guess arguably like with Pete she does this after rejection by Jack. I guess this is our first indication that there is part of Sam that would quite like a husband and kids - as we've discussed quite frequently it's really rather repressed in our Sam, but it is there nonetheless. But however much Sam loves Joe, she is still willing to destroy their life together in order to save the world, so I guess not so much has changed for her - her work and her sense of duty are still stronger than her desire for a relationship.

**JenniferJF** · 19 February 2010, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Nynaeve506 View Post

Maybe someone should send me a reminder Saturday night LOL - but yeah I'll probably be posting on Sunday. Although I think my recent review got pummeled by the S9 & 10 conversation LOL

I think it was more.. Chain Reaction. I'm not sure it was a favorite of many of ours

I discussed everything I wanted to about it... lol

As for 2010... It's an AT. Almost the entire thing. And that's pretty much all I've got to say. I'm pathologically non-curious about ATs in canon the same way I am about AU stories out of it. Not sure why... really... lol

The only real thing I find significant for our Sam and Jack is, as Josi touched on, Sam still - despite whatever happened between them and despite her actually being *married* to someone else still has that pull on him and, when she asks him to come, he drops everything and goes. And I think the fact everyone sent her, specifically, indicates by then they're all aware of it and it's not 'for the good of the world' he's coming back into the fight but for *Sam*. Which is the same thing we see again and again in the real Sam and Jack - she can get him to do things when no one else can simply because she needs him to.

**Tachyon** · 19 February 2010, 09:58 PM

2010 is an alright episode for me. The tension between Jack and Sam has always made me to believe that Jack was not particularly happy with the fact that Sam was with another man.

What comes to AU episodes in general - I dislike almost every AU episode in Trek series. I just don't like them. So everytime SG-1 jumped in an AU, I was on guard. However, for some reason AU episodes in SG-1 were pretty good ones and I have not had "issues" with them whatsoever (excluding the last two seasons I have not seen fully, so can't say anything about them).

**Petra** · 20 February 2010, 03:11 AM

Great review!

Originally posted by josiane View Post

Overall this is a great episode - really good teaminess, good to see so much of Janet, and ship and humour aplenty.

I'm with you on this one.

I'm a sucker for AU/AT stories and 2010 is among the best I've ever seen, on any show. It's brilliant ep and definitely one of my favourites.

We're only given sketchy information about what happened to make Jack turn his back on SG1, but he clearly feels let down and betrayed by his team and again, by Sam in particular, as he makes sure to remind her that she turned her back on him. He's obviously resentful, and not just about the fact that he warned everyone - the way he says 'your dearly beloved Ambassador' just drips with venom. Jack's attitude to Joe is the clearest indication I think that something happened between Sam and Jack in this timeline. Everything about his attitude to Joe, and Joe's attitude to him, screams jealousy and a desire to mark territory. Another thing that supports this, and I find interesting, is the way Jack questions Sam about erasing the timeline - "what happens to the last ten years?" There's an extra dimension to this if they did have a relationship that didn't work out, because erasing the timeline would both put them back to how they were before they met the Aschen, but would also mean their relationship never happened at all.

Another thing that's just occurred to me is to note that it's interesting we get this right after Chain Reaction and the way we've just all discussed the way Sam and Jack fight very hard there to get their professional relationship back and don't even consider the opportunity for a personal one. Is this another way in which 2010 is a failure then, if Sam and Jack did choose the personal over the professional? Perhaps if they'd acted more like they did in Chain Reaction this wouldn't have happened? I don't know, but I'm a fully paid-up subscriber to VSS's AU theory, which shows that our Sam and Jack got together at precisely the right time for the world to not get destroyed, seeing as all the AUs that show the opposite to their current status show the end of the world.

Hmm, so you think Sam and Jack got together at some point in this timeline and it didn't work out?

I must say I never got this impression. I've always attributed a lot of Jack's resentment to the fact that he and Sam went nowhere, so to speak. I think that she got so distracted by the Aschen and Joe that she never gave Jack chance in her personal life, especially if he was the distrustful one, trying to convince her (and rest of the team) that they were wrong. I think they must have had some huge falling out in which they mixed professional reasons of their disagreement with personal ones, hurt each other and then Jack left and Sam turned to Joe. It probably happned right before or right after Jack was thrown out of the Oval Office. I just don't see their tension and regret as "I regret we screw it up" but rather "I regret that we missed our chance".

So while I also love VSS theory, in this case I see it in the other way around than you. The world was about to be destroyed because S&J acted professionally, al la Chain Reaction, and their professional disagreement (plus Joe, no doubt) separated them while there was a chance that if they gave in to their personal feelings thay might have overcome their professional differences.

I also don't think that Joe treated Jack as Sam's ex, but rather as his rival. He was way too anxious and hostile for someone secure in the knowledge that while his wife and and another guy had something going on but it didn't work out; I guess I saw him as more suspicious in the "she's mine and don't think you can do anything about it" way.

On a slightly different note, I don't remember Jack being (or RDA playing him) quite as hostile to anyone else on the series, not even Kinsey or the fanatic guy from Red Sky.

I should comment on Sam's relationship with Joe here too. Sam here does seem to have found the life outside the SGC that she looks for later with Pete, and I guess arguably like with Pete she does this after rejection by Jack. I guess this is our first indication that there is part of Sam that would quite like a husband and kids - as we've discussed quite frequently it's really rather repressed in our Sam, but it is there nonetheless. But however much Sam loves Joe, she is still willing to destroy their life together in order to save the world, so I guess not so much has changed for her - her work and her sense of duty are still stronger than her desire for a relationship.

Eeh, I guess after my recent string of disagreements with you guys and given what I'm about to write I'll be considered The Worst Shipper Ever.

I also can't agree with the above paragraph. Each one of us has her/his personal interpretation of the characters, and the way I see Sam, she isn't the sort of woman who dreams about husband and kids. I think Sam (and her relationship with Jack) is too unique for something so ordinary. I do agree she needs a partner, someone to share her life with but marriage and kids just don't fit.

So in this light, I see Sam playing happy families with Joe as yet another way to convey how wrong and screwed up this world is. Because it isn't the real Sam. I think it's her way to compensate for the loss of her dispersed team, who always grounded and supported her, her father/mentor (both Jacob and Hammond), loosened friendship with Janet, falling out with Jack and lack of military in her life. She felt lost and so she threw herself into lab work and creating a perfect, model family to fill the void in her life.

**Rachel500** · 20 February 2010, 03:39 AM

2010

Great review, Josi. Alas I seem to not be able to green you.

Generally

I love this episode. It's consistently in my top five and regularly competes for the bronze place on my Rachel's Favourite Episode podiums.

I admit I love time travel episodes. I especially love this one which allows us to peek into a possible future for our Sam and Jack (if you ascribe to the linear theory of time travel)...

Linear vs Bounce

Spoiler:

In terms of 2010 then, this is our universe and our Sam and Jack for me. Just a peek into a future they could have had if they met the Aschen immediately after Chain Reaction. I'm going to talk about the rest in terms of Sam/Jack...

Sam and Jack

In many ways, I look at 2010 as foreshadowing what happens later in the revised timeline.

The beginning of the episode is a huge shock - and Sam being with someone else is part of the "OMG what's going on?" intake of breath. After all, at this point, we know that Sam and Jack have feelings for each other locked up in a room because of the regulations but there is the hope that one day they'll get together. That they don't end up together is a disappointment - but it's meant to be because this is a timeline where everything has gone wrong.

We're presented with this glossy image of an almost perfect future: Stargate public knowledge and out in the open, salvation from the Goa'uld, Teal'c and the Jaffa free, Daniel back to being more scholarly...

And yet, from the opening we get hints that something is wrong with the picture: Sam isn't with Jack, Kinsey (who we know is corrupt) is President, Jack isn't there (and there is a brief tease of whether he's dead), Hammond has died, Janet is unhappy...

Which all leads to the reveal of Sam's infertility when Sam finally questions the picture herself and the sterilisation of Earth revelation.

Sam's marriage with Joe for me is part of Sam's illusion of happy ever after (just as Sam later, constructs an illusion of a relationship with Pete). Joe clearly does love her; he's supportive, solicitous, treats her turning up late with equanimity. It's not the puppyish love Pete has for her, and I always get the impression, Joe has a less idealised picture of Sam than Pete does but it always comes across to me too that while there is a real love for her there, Joe also considers Sam something of a prize. She's a beautiful, smart woman. I don't know - I think both Sam and Joe have constructed this image of a perfect marriage and are playing to that - and in part a baby would complete this perfect picture and the fact that it's taking them three years and she's still not pregnant - that's the flaw in the illusion (and it is creating tension - Joe's remarks at the lunch table give that away).

The more interesting question of course is what happened with Sam and Jack? And the scene at the cabin is very interesting in that regard because it's clear that something happened. There's just so much tension.

Firstly, agree with Jenn that it's clear Sam has been nominated because they consider she's their best chance of getting Jack to help (and later this becomes very obvious in episodes like Abyss, Fragile Balance, Lost City).

Her opening of 'sir' I think is her way of trying to set the conversation on an almost professional basis; to deal with it as just any other mission briefing. And he doesn't let her immediately shooting down that approach and forcing her onto personal ground.

When she tells him she can't have children, Jack softens a little. But as she goes onto talk about the Aschen and their plan, he gets very bitter. It's not just that he got shot down over his concerns, but that Sam shot him down. It's not his choices that were wrong, but Sam's. There's a very personal undertone to his rejoinders. And finally, his last shot at her reveals why: Joe.

Whatever happened between them was a personal estrangement.

That Jack actually does show up at the SGC and help them is also telling. I firmly believe that a large part of Sam and Jack's motivations here are doing what is best for humanity; saving the world from the Aschen. But I think they're both aware that their plan will also eliminate what has gone wrong between them.

Sam's conversation with Joe is actually very telling in terms of their relationship; Sam doesn't talk to Joe until that evening after the plan is already in motion. (This is the day after the dinner when they've come up with the plan and where Sam could presumably after going home have talked with Joe). And yet Sam hasn't even told Joe about her infertility until this point. Effectively, she's confided the plans and her infertility in Jack before speaking with her husband.

Now, I'm inclined to believe some of this is Sam falling back into old habits; missions are classified, you only tell who you need to but I also do think that despite her prostestations to Daniel and Jack, that there is a part of Sam which questions Joe's loyalty to her. She's not as certain as she says that Joe will come through for them.

The reveal of the sterilisation agreement is shocking and Sam is furious with her husband. I truly believe had the timeline not been wiped from existence, it would have been the end for them. Because although Joe protests that it was classified information and she should understand why he didn't tell her, Sam quite rightly points out that he sold them out. That she still trusts him with the GDO mission I think is more because they are choiceless than really wanting to put her trust in him. I think the fact that he had knowledge that would have substantiated Jack's position but didn't say would have been too much for their marriage had it continued.

The scene in the lab when Joe turns up and sees Jack also indicates that Joe and Jack knew each other; that there is a rivalry there (just in terms of body language); and that the point of contention is Sam.

It always irritated me that Joe effectively decides Sam is out of the mission and blackmails Jack into agreeing (it's a very controlling thing to do). But I've come to the conclusion since that the subsequent agreement by Jack and the look/words he exchanges with Sam over it are very much a silent communication of "we need to go along with this right now because we need the GDO; once we have it, up to you".

Sam's actions after Joe comes out of the terminal substantiate this for me. She basically tells him; forget it. She chooses her mission, her team and Jack over Joe in the instant she runs back into the terminal to help them.

And the timeline is corrected.

So, what did happen? I tend to go with the view that events must have transpired a little as in 2001 with all of them initially happy with the idea of the Aschen as saviours. But when Kinsey gets involved and when the Aschen seem to be agreeing to so much for so little, Jack gets suspicious. I'm also inclined to believe that the team supported Jack initially and investigated. But without hidden cities to find and any evidence that the Aschen weren't on the level, they eventually disagreed with him, coming to see his concerns over the Aschen as being without foundation and perhaps paramoia because of Kinsey.

With Sam, I tend to think the arrival of the Aschen also gave the two of them hope that it would happen for them. But as Jack becomes increasingly adamant that the Aschen are bad, I think this would underscore to Sam that he didn't really want to be with her because he's trying to take away the one thing that gives them hope of a victory against the Goa'uld and a chance of being together.

And I can see Joe waiting patiently on the sidelines, providing a shoulder to Sam and being quick to jump in when Sam's upset about how things are progressing or not with Jack, and effectively romancing her, making her feel special and moreover, wanted.

To be more succinct, this is my take on what happened between Chain Reaction and 2010: The Wrong Timeline Trilogy

**JenniferJF** · 20 February 2010, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by Petra View Post

I must say I never got this impression. I've always attributed a lot of Jack's resentment to the fact that he and Sam went nowhere, so to speak. I think that she got so distracted by the Aschen and Joe that she never gave Jack chance in her personal life, especially if he was the distrustful one, trying to convince her (and rest of the team) that they were wrong. I think they must have had some huge falling out in which they mixed professional reasons of their disagreement with personal ones, hurt each other and then Jack left and Sam turned to Joe. It probably happned right before or right after Jack was thrown out of the Oval Office. I just don't see their tension and regret as "I regret we screw it up" but rather "I regret that we missed our chance".

I agree with this.

Really, too, I think Sam and Jack's different reactions to the Aschen highlight not only two basic differences in their personalities but also, in a way, what it is they bring to each other. Because Jack does tend to be more jaded and cynical, always wary for the ulterior motive and slow to trust. Sam, OTOH, really is more optimistic and willing to trust in general. Their responses to the Aschen, even in the real timeline later, reflect this. And in our timeline, the reason Sam didn't trust the Aschen was because of the information from elsewhere. Her default, as it were, was to trust and hope that they'd finally succeeded. Jack's, I think, was far more distrustful and suspicious. Even without that info, he was initially skeptical and I can easily see, even without the note from the future, that skepticism eventually leading him to see and suspect things the others wouldn't.

This difference, of course, is a central idea between Sam and Jack. She is young and fresh and, in many ways, almost a breath of sunshine in contrast to his dark cynicism. And - in being so - she is actually able to lift him out of his black moods and improve his mood and help him feel better. The scene I've gif'd from WoO I think shows this interchange of their personalities:

I think it's a significant part of how their relationship works, and is even one of the things which I think draws Jack to Sam. She simply makes him feel *good*.

I think we also, interestingly, even see this played out during 2010. We have Jack mired in inertia and depression up at his cabin, and Sam goes up and, through - essentially - ongoing optimism that if they just try hard enough things will get better, convinces him to get back into the game.

What's ironic about this, really, is that verbally and outwardly at least, Jack is the optimistic one - often refusing to give up or give in even when Sam's spouting the scientific reason it's hopeless. Only, I think, in a way, that's almost part of his inertia, too. Also - and this is key I think - Jack, IMHO, tends to keep going for other people... to not let them down. Sam tends to be happier and more optimistic and to hope things can get better just because that's who she is.

In fact (and I've got this in the background playing atm) is it's even what happens ultimately in Threads. It's *Sam* who makes the initial move to overcome the inertia speeding them to disaster and to approach Jack in his backyard. Granted, she was the one in the position to do so, but I think it's also reflective of the idea Jack tends to get broody and depressive while Sam tends to ACT.

And I think that's one of the things he loves about her. In fact, he *needs* it from her.

Originally posted by Petra View Post

So while I also love VSS theory, in this case I see it in the other way around than you. The world was about to be destroyed because S&J acted professionally, al la Chain Reaction, and their professional disagreement (plus Joe, no doubt) separated them while there was a chance that if they gave in to their personal feelings thay might have overcome their professional differences.

I agree with this, too. If anything, as I think Rachel says in her next post, it serves as a cautionary tale in many ways not about the dangers of Sam and Jack giving in to their emotions, but the dangers of them NOT doing so. Suppressing their feelings leads to Jack alone at the cabin deep in depression and Sam desperately trying to make herself happy in a life with someone else.... A future we barely avoid later on in our own timeline

I also agree with much of this:

Originally posted by Petra View Post

I also can't agree with the above paragraph. Each one of us has her/his personal interpretation of the characters, and the way I see Sam, she isn't the sort of woman who dreams about husband and kids. I think Sam (and her relationship with Jack) is too unique for something so ordinary. I do agree she needs a partner, someone to share her life with but marriage and kids just don't fit.

So in this light, I see Sam playing happy families with Joe as yet another way to convey how wrong and screwed up this world is. Because it isn't the real Sam. I think it's her way to compensate for the loss of her dispersed team, who always grounded and supported her, her father/mentor (both Jacob and Hammond), loosened friendship with Janet, falling out with Jack and lack of military in her life. She felt lost and so she threw herself into lab work and creating a perfect, model family to fill the void in her life.

Not that I think Sam necessarily doesn't want marriage and kids (cause I do think a part of Grace was about her unacknowledged subconscious desire for those things), but that here we see Sam putting the cart-before-the-horse again as we later see her trying to do with Pete as well. She knows that aspect of her life is unfulfilled so she tries to fulfill it rather than accepting the man she loves and building whatever life they can together.

Or, in other words, it's Sam trying to fulfill expected roles again rather than simply accepting and being the person she is.

**Nynaeve506** · 20 February 2010, 05:24 AM

Oh oh! I wrote a story I can self-pimp here: Fate and Free Will.

In my own real world thinking - there are no such things as alternate timelines/realities. There is this one and that's it. However, for the sake of sci-fi, and in fiction, it's a way to explore characters in a way one might not be able to in a regular story line. In tv, I think it's a fun way to give actors a chance to play something other than the role they're assigned (also - see evil twin).

Something else I think 2010 gives us is Sam and what kind of men she tends to consciously pick. Like Jenn said about the thing with the whole horse and cart.

**Zoser** · 20 February 2010, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by josiane View Post

she does this after rejection by Jack.

Good review but I have to quibble on this point - I don't think Jack rejected Sam. Sam never gave him the chance. The ball was always in her court and it was totally inappropriate for him to make the first move considering his position of authority.
The only time she intimates an obtuse question of what he wants she has been with another man for months and is showing Jack an engagement ring.

On 2010 - I really liked this episode and we see our heroes all die to save the world yet again. I guess my mind goes to 2001 where Jack sizes up Ambassador Faxon and smiles - I don't think he saw him as a rival at first. I think Jack and Sam got together (doom and disaster for Earth) and broke apart because of trusting the Aschen. I see Jack quitting the AF instead of facilitating the Aschen take over of Earth.

**Rachel500** · 20 February 2010, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Zoser View Post

Good review but I have to quibble on this point - I don't think Jack rejected Sam. Sam never gave him the chance. The ball was always in her court and it was totally inappropriate for him to make the first move considering his position of authority.
The only time she intimates an obtuse question of what he wants she has been with another man for months and is showing Jack an engagement ring.

On 2010 - I really liked this episode and we see our heroes all die to save the world yet again. I guess my mind goes to 2001 where Jack sizes up Ambassador Faxon and smiles - I don't think he saw him as a rival at first. I think Jack and Sam got together (doom and disaster for Earth) and broke apart because of trusting the Aschen. I see Jack quitting the AF instead of facilitating the Aschen take over of Earth.

I think in our own timeline there's a fine line between Sam being rejected (which I agree Jack never explicitly does reject Sam) and her feeling rejected by him. Clearly by Grace she was deeply unsure whether his feelings for her were simply friendship or not - and in fact she's too scared to put herself in the position of actually being rejected by him so never outright asks the real Jack until she's on the verge of marrying someone else (and Jack himself is making an effort to move on although she doesn't know that).

Now I agree Jack could never just come out and say it himself explicitly given his position in their professional relationship because that could have been seen to be placing undue pressure on her but Sam did give him a couple of openings to say something - to give a hint, a sign - and IMO he let them pass on the belief that she would be happier with someone else, to let her go. It's not until it's clear that Sam was going to talk to him explicitly, and the implications of that, that he steps up and admits the truth to her.

And I can't see Sam in the 2010 timeline being any different. I think she would only move on from Jack if she believed he didn't feel the same way about her anymore. Now whether like our Sam she'd ever had the courage to find out for certain...

**Bekki** · 20 February 2010, 07:41 PM

*loves this discussion*

I absoultely adore 2010. It's one of my favourite episodes of all time. Why? I think it is because our characters (who, like Rachel said, are our Sam and Jack, not the Sam and Jack of a completely different reality) are in so many ways so different to the characters we knew them to be. I think it's so fascinating to look into how the events that transpired could have changed our characters, or led them to the circumstances that we saw in 2010. And not just Sam and Jack. I love Janet's role in 2010, we learn so much about the way she sees herself and her job and her worth. Daniel has contentedly gone along with his life, or I guess, built a new one, seeing as Sam now has Joe, Teal'c now has Chulak, Jack now has himself, etc. I wonder what Daniel did exactly...

Anyway, Sam and Jack. Their relationship is so unlike anything we have seen from them before. Which, I think, means that something mujst have transpired between them that is unlike anything we have seen before. Although, I think there are glimpses of the tension from both Shades of Grey and The Other Side, both of which show Sam's reaction to Jack going too far, her disagreeing with his judgement, etc. So maybe Jack pulled a huge stunt to get Earth to see the truth. A stunt that Sam thought went way too far.

But of course, there's the obvious disdain Jack shows for Sam's relationship with Joe. A disdain that, interestingly, we never see from Jack for Pete. I think this shows that something may have gone on between Sam and Jack, or that they were both aware, had talked about, or more likely had skirted around the fact that they could be together if they signe the treaty with the Aschen.

Also, I'm assuming it would have killed Jack to see Sam agreeing with Kinsey that maybe Jack was only fighting the treaty so that SG1 would still be needed...if that ever happened. We know Kinsey would have hammered Jack for wanting to be the hero, even though Earth didn't need him anymore. If Jack had ever thought that Sam had agreed with Kinsey on that, I imagine he would think that betrayal was beyong reparable.

Wheras, Sam would also think Jack had betrayed her. Subconciously at least, she would have known that the Aschen would have made it possible for her and Jack to be together, and though she might not have ever brought it up with him, she would have known that he knew the implications of that. And then Jack was so bitter toward Joe. What would Sam have thought then? If Jack knew that the Aschen could let them be together, but wouldn't open up to the idea, obviously (at least to her) she just wasn't that important to him. Heartbreak. But then to be so rude to the guy that she did end up with? To her, that would seem so unlike him. If he didn't want her, he should be happy to see her with someone else (as we see in season 8...or at least, once again, that's what Samthinks is happening. Never mind the sacrifice Jack is making by making her think that...) It is so unlike Jack to be so childish as to have a "I don't want her but no one else can have her" mindset, so I can see why Sam might have stopped caring about what he was going on about with the Aschen. He just wasn't acting like Jack anymore. Again, Sam didn't know that all Jack was trying to was to save her life, and everyone else's, and that he may have suspected Sam was giving the possibility of things she had never had more importance than the possibility of might go wrong, and was just trying to stop her making a mistake with him, and then, with making a pretty, perfect life with Joe, 2.5 children and the Aschen race. Although, by that stage, when your friends, the only people who would and have followed you to the ends of the earth, aren't listening to you or trusting you, it's natural that you would get bitter at their reluctance to see that you are just trying to save them...

Did I mention this is one of my favourite episodes ever? There is just so much to wonder! So much to explore! And it's our Sam and Jack we are exploring, which makes it infinitely more fascinating

*huggles 2010*

I should really stop analysing now, I'm fairly certain none of this made sense anyhow...

Announcement

Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment