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    Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
    Oh the did they cross the line? debate? As much as I love the idea that they might have been physically intimate here, I am largely in the camp that even kissing would have had a fairly devastating consequence to their ability to return to a purely professional relationship so I think, while it's the one episode I could imagine it happening, I don't think it did. That's not to say I am not hugely grateful for the hundreds of fanfics it spawned that explores this.
    You know, the argument that they wouldn't be able to work together after having sex doesn't really work for me here. If it happened in any other episode, when both of them did it as *them* (Jack/Sam) - then sure, I agree (and mentioned annerb's fic dealt with such situation superbly). But given their ability to slip into denial over everything regarding them ad their feelings I think they would both pretend that what happened hapened between Jonah and Terra, not between Jack and Sam and therefore has no impact on their relationship, especially professional. They'd be able to force themselves to believe that Jonah and Terra were different people and lock everything about those two in another room. *shrug* Just my take on it.

    Oh and that brings me on to my one comment to add to the discussion.

    While I agree with all the loving there is of this relationship... there's a little part of me that finds it THE most frustrating episode to watch. Mostly because I feel this is such a great story - multi layered, thoughtful, intense - and there's so much missing. Not just in the way Sam/Thera and Jack/Jonah's relationship develops but also in the whole thing. I sometimes feel like I'm watching in some kind of fast forward whole chunks I am missing out on because they go past so fast. It really needed to be a two parter. Had it been so it could have and would have been as epic (almost) as Lost City. OK maybe not quite but certainly one of those episodes everyone ranks somewhere in their top ten.
    The episode suffers because of it. They shy away just short of tackling anything difficult. So we're left with Brenna being shot but surviving (and not even really bleeding), Teal'c being OK depsite nearly dying, Daniel and Jack's anatgonism as Jonah and Karlin not really explored fully... and of course Jack and Sam's developing feelings and new found openess with each falls frustratingly short of actually causing any significant shift in their relationship once they return to reality. I think it's either in the commentary or in an interviews/review somewhere but someone did say it lacked an emotional heart and that is a comment that really strikes a chord with me because that's exactly how I feel.But even on a less emotionally focussed area, I would love to have seen more peril for them; for their revelations of who they really are and subsequent escape / return to the SGC to have been a bit more of a struggle - I can't imagine just having Calder hostage allowed them all to march up to the gate and demand to go home and everyone stepping aside without there being some kind of fight?

    Not that I think it was a terrible episode - far from it; I loved it! I just wish there'd been more of it.

    However, as I said before, thus was spawned hundreds of fanfics, most of which are incredibly enjoyable to read so I can take heart in those instead.
    Nicely said and I must agree. I would have loved it even more as a 2-parter.

    Regarding the bolded part: I believe (I may be mistaken though) that it was some interview or chat with Joe Mallozzi because I read it too. IIRC that's when he said that in the original script they were lovers and there was a kiss that was supposed to confirm their intimacy but in the end the script was changed because TPTB felt it was too shippy in an already shippy season. And this change caused the loss of "emotional heart" in his opinion.
    There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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      Originally posted by col aga View Post
      You know, the argument that they wouldn't be able to work together after having sex doesn't really work for me here. If it happened in any other episode, when both of them did it as *them* (Jack/Sam) - then sure, I agree (and mentioned annerb's fic dealt with such situation superbly). But given their ability to slip into denial over everything regarding them ad their feelings I think they would both pretend that what happened happened between Jonah and Terra, not between Jack and Sam and therefore has no impact on their relationship, especially professional. They'd be able to force themselves to believe that Jonah and Terra were different people and lock everything about those two in another room. *shrug* Just my take on it.
      My take too.

      Comment






        Banner by Josiane.


        Synopsis

        SG1 are called to an emergency briefing where Hammond plays them the recording of a telephone call to the Air Force. The individual, who seems to buy into every conspiracy theory going, asks for Jack by name and talks about the Stargate. Hammond sends Jack to meet with him while the rest of SG1 perform surveillance. Martin Lloyd turns up; he believes he is an alien. Jack humours him and in order to give the others time to search Marty’s house, he agrees to go search for Marty’s ship.
        Sam picks the lock to the house and they search it discovering some medication; they take samples and leave unaware that they in turn have been under surveillance. As they wait for the results, they stay in the area taking rooms in a motel. Discovering that the medication is laced with an unknown chemical, Sam and Daniel go to talk with Marty’s doctor, Dr Tanner, who tells them they are playing into Martin’s delusion and he has no idea how chemicals got into the drugs. He provides them with Martin’s work address but it turns out to be a trap and Sam and Daniel get taken captive.
        Meanwhile, Martin turns up at the motel. Jack introduces Teal’c as ‘Murray’ and hands Jack a Stargate address. Jack gets worried when he can’t reach Sam and it is past the time they were due to check-in. He heads to the doctor’s office which has been emptied. When he returns to the motel, Teal’c has locked Martin in the bathroom but Marty has remembered where his ship is. They go to find it believing it is the only lead.
        Sam and Daniel are refusing to answer questions but ultimately end up drugged as the captors realise the ship has been found. Martin, who has realised that he with a few others deserted a war against the Goa’uld, agrees to act as bait and when Tanner and his friends turns up to get him, Jack and Teal’c along with back-up follow. They find Sam and Daniel but Tanner and the others have mysteriously disappeared. As Marty notes that there is a countdown on a hand held device they race out of the building but the countdown is for the ship which explodes.
        Jack and Teal’c take Marty through to his homeworld but it has been destroyed by the Goa’uld. They go back to Earth.

        (synopsis supplied by Rachel500)


        Favourite Line

        Jack: “I was just about to do something important”

        (which is only funny in context of the fact that Daniel, Sam and Teal’c were all interrupted in the middle of something very important. Jack was likely about to go eat pie! )


        Favourite moment

        Teal’c enjoying the delights of the vibrating bed. Watch carefully for the grin on his face. Cracks me up every time.


        Review

        I am largely blah about this episode. It’s ok it’s just that I don’t really like the earth based ones much for the most part, because, huh, it’s called STAR gate for a reason.
        However there are a stack of priceless moments littered throughout the episode that make it worthwhile, and I do like Martin Lloyd despite (or possibly because) he’s a bit annoying.
        I also like the fact that, because he is a little bit crazy, they do start out assuming he’s delusional but they come very quickly to the realisation that he’s actually not quite as nuts as they first thought. I also like the fact we go almost the whole way through the episode with assuming that he’s some kind of double agent gone a bit off the rails for some organisations (despite the fact he insists he’s an alien) and yet, actually, he’s telling the truth about that too and is completely vindicated. In the end, finding out what had really happened to his world is rather sad.



        General Observations


        Completely shallow of me but Jack, at the start of this episode, in the diner with Martin looks particularly hot. Sorry, I said it was shallow.

        Sam can pick locks as well as programme the computers that run the Stargate, fix the actual gate, kick ass in a battle against Jaffa, calculate intricate wormhole physics and blow up suns. And she also has a fairly decent knowledge of pharmacology. Is there any limit to her talents? (actually that did annoy me a bit that Sam became the “fixer” for just about everything by this point.)



        Implications for The Ship

        Not much, surprisingly, given the previous episode and the admission of feeling feelings (even if they were not quite themselves when that happened). Then again, we don't really know how much time passed between the two episodes so they may have had chance to deal with that, and nobody does denial or compartmentalising like these two can.
        Interesting that Sam and Jack sit on opposite sides of the briefing room table here. Apart from that, they spend the best part of the episode apart.
        Jack shows obvious concern when Sam and Daniel are missing and there’s one point where Jack finds drugged and tied up Sam and Daniel in the warehouse and he directs his concern at Sam but I think that’s really more because she’s coming round while Daniel is still completely out for the count at this point. The problem with seeing any of that is shippy is Daniel so it’s easy to say it was concern he has for both of them not just her.
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          Point of No Return

          Ah, yes. The episode where the main ship on show was Teal'c and the vibrating bed.

          Generally

          I didn't really enjoy this first time out and although subsequent viewings have warmed me to the episode (because I do think its actually a very interesting story idea), it's still not an episode I watch out of choice. Primarily I think because I've been further soured on the whole Marty character after the Wormhole X-treme thing (which I just don't find funny and thought was a waste of the 100th episode - and as much as I enjoyed the skits in the 200th, again, not really all that enamoured that they dragged out the Wormhole X-treme thing again).

          Sam & Jack

          I actually in hindsight find the fact that the episode following BtS has Sam and Jack separated so much immensely shippy. Because for me it suggests that the two are trying to deal with the inappropriate closeness that they developed as Jonah and Thera. And as in post-Entity/S5 they're trying to handle it by putting distance between them.

          I do like the scene where Jack is trying to get hold of Carter and can't and is increasingly worried. And in the warehouse where he's concerned for her. Because while it's not romantically shippy in the sense that no doubt he has similar concerns for Daniel, it is shippy in the wider sense that there is an edge of personal concern mixed in with the professional for me that hints at what is once again beneath the surface. They also do share a great look just after the moment pictured in the banner.
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            Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
            Point of No Return

            Ah, yes. The episode where the main ship on show was Teal'c and the vibrating bed.
            OMG!

            But yeah - it was a funny scene.

            I like this episode. After Beneath The Surface this was slightly lighter one and even though there isn't much going on for S/J shippers, the episode is still somewhat enjoyable.

            Comment


              I liked Point of No Return. Out of all the "Marty" episodes, this is the best one. I liked that, like you've all said, Sam and Jack ARE seperated for pretty much the whole episode. Yet, in my mind a little bit, I can imagine them both trying so hard not to think about what happened in the last one.

              And on a superficial note, Jack looks incredible in this one. Not that he doesn't always, but you ladies know what I mean

              Teal'c and the vibrating bed? Made. of. Win. That, for me, seals the episode with a MUAH! I giggle everytime.
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              Made by the lovely Jakie

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                Favorite Quote:
                Uh, Murray? Listen um... I'm really sorry I tried to bite you and I realize it was totally out of line... And uh... I was wondering if, uh, maybe I cou-I could come out now? Or-or-or I could just... stay in here... that-that's good too. It's just, uh, um, I'm getting a little dizzy...

                Ship Factor:
                Big Fat ZERO

                General Comments:
                This seriously lacking ship episode actually is a nice balance to things. I like the story, dialog, look and feel of it all.

                I love how Willie Garson (Martin) steals every scene!

                Comment


                  I agree there's nothing shippy here. However, despite the dreadful lack of S/J interactions , PONR is another unpopular episode that I love. The premise is quite funny and interesting, there's a nice twist at the end, Sam and Daniel work together (it stands out to me, because I'm also a huge team fan and in later seasons S/D interactions are almost non-existent), Marty is a joy to watch (walking hilarity), Teal'c and his "bed scene" is one of my favourite scenes in the series and Jack is not only really smart and commanding, but also wears his leather jacket instead of BDU and looks just gorgeous. Plus I love his haircut.

                  *runs away realising how shallow her thoughts are*
                  There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                  awesome sig by Josiane

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                    Oh hey look at me, :: headdesk :: Okay I totally flunked Shipper School here - I caught that I had this Friday but not last Friday. I remember Tangent pretty decently so I'm going to run off here and type up a summary.

                    :: headdesk ::

                    :: headdesk ::

                    :: headdesk ::

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                      If I Had A Graphic Of AWESOMENESS It Would Be Here

                      Tangent

                      Summary:

                      Our story starts off with T being a flyboy that wears mascara. After a very amusing "Doctor, doctor, general, colonel" moment - which I swear deep down the writers have had this gag in their pockets just waiting for the right scene - Jack decides he can't let T have all the fun (or impress all the women), so he jumps in. Cue problems because, of course, for the first time in YEARS Apophis is actually one step ahead of our team. Apophis 1. Carter & Crew: 8 Million. At least it's not a shut out right? Long story short, T & Jack spend some quality time doing what guys do together - roughing it, minus the trees, tent, and well, Earth. Per her usual skill and brilliance, Sam opens a can of whoop-ass on Apophis' plan by proving that she is, in fact, smarter than Bill Gates. Unfortunately she didn't plan on the fact that the USAF goes with the lowest bidder and her plan doesn't work. So Carter does, what all little girls do at a very young age - she gets Dad and despite the fact that he's on a top secret mission with a 2000 year old Tok'Ra in his brain, he can't resist "Daddy" and the quivering lip (hey, it's no knock against Sam's skillz - being intelligent means using all available resources). Jumping in the Goa'uld equivalent of a pinto they Star Trek across the universe, rescue our guys in time, and essentially tell Apophis "Up Yours Next Time We're Running Norton AntiVirus".

                      Favorite Scene:
                      That one. When they're in the ship. Just kidding. Probably when Sam wakes up Jack. Too bad it's in space and there's lots and lots of hull between them... and you know oxygen deprivation...

                      On a funnier note: Daniel as Oz. Need I say more?

                      Shippy-ness:
                      (working from memory and a script, so forgive the crap-tacular nature of this)
                      I don't remember the faces very well, but I do remember the ferocity of Sam trying to wake up Jack. Overall there's very little overt shippy-ness outside of Sam's very methodical work to save them, but even then... I don't consider anything really "shippy". Perhaps someone remembers a tiny moment one would catch in watching but this episode was primarily a Jack/Teal'c episode.

                      Comment


                        Tangent:

                        My absolute favorite part of this episode is actually Jacob and Sam's relationship. And it's indirectly shippy, really. 'Cause its such a classic father-child bit between them here: he starts out upset that she's 'disturbing' his work, and then as soon as he finds out Teal'c and Jack are in trouble, he drops it and gets to work saving them. But... as soon as they get a quite moment again, Dad goes into lecture mode with Sam on why she shouldn't have done what she did that got her into trouble in the first place. It's just... brilliant. Absolute normalcy in the midst of outrageous circumstance cause it's - effectively, "Dad, can you come get us... We're in trouble" and, no matter how old they get, Dad's gonna drop everything for his kid.



                        Yeah...

                        Shippy by reference...

                        Cause I believe Jacob has known more or less all along how Sam feels about Jack (and vice versa) so he has an extra sympathy for her desperation in saving him. It's not just going to save his kids friends, but his kids friend..

                        I also do think there's something vaguely shippy in Jack's response on waking to seeing and hearing that it's Sam there calling to him. Sort of as though he's responding to her when he might not bother with anyone else.. which is a continuation of the ongoing theme of her desperation not to lose him and his being there for her when he might not necessarily want to be and when he wouldn't necessarily make as much effort for anyone else... Or, IOW, if it hadn't been *Sam* calling his name and insisting he wake up he might not have bothered.

                        Comment


                          Tangent

                          Generally...


                          I love Tangent. It's effectively Apollo 13 done Stargate SG1 style.

                          The bit I absolutely adore is the bit where Jacob beams Sam and Daniel aboard the cargo ship and reams them out as though they're kids. It's just incredibly funny and real. Admittedly, Daniel and Oz is just funny. There is a moment where they revisit the Daniel/Jack/Anise/Freya business as its Anise who gives away the info that allows them to get to Jacob (although Daniel doesn't realise that at the time and mentions he may have replied less than diplomatically).

                          For me, it's very much a team episode - just as Solitudes was. Here we have Sam and Daniel doing absolutely everything they can to save Jack and Teal'c to the point of going into Goa'uld territory in search of Jacob. And in the ship we have Teal'c and Jack being awesome and Teal'c telling Jack how much he means to him.

                          Love this episode.

                          Sam and Jack

                          While there is the sense from the moment everything goes wrong that Sam is just incredibly worried and incredibly determined to do anything and everything to get Jack back, it's kind of there in the wider sense too that it's not just Jack, it's Teal'c and Daniel is also doing the worrying.

                          Mostly, the "overt" shippiness for me is confined to that scene where Sam is so kind scared/angry with the "we did not come all this way for you to die on me", and when Jacob nudges the glider and Jack wakes up and sees Sam. His look is just so goofy and pleased to see her. And that moment where she asks him to trust her and he just does so absolutely.

                          Did I mention I love this episode?

                          EDIT: Can Cags or someone please confirm what the schedule now is going forward as I'm confused...
                          Last edited by Rachel500; February 9, 2010, 01:13 PM.
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                            Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post

                            EDIT: Can Cags or someone please confirm what the schedule now is going forward as I'm confused...

                            Umm, yes, but first...

                            *Gibbs slaps Shannon for being a numpty!*

                            (although backtowork madness is an acceptable excuse )


                            Probably easiest if we just push things back a few days so, if we pick up from tomorrow with whichever episode was origincally on Monday... is that ok with everyone?

                            New Schedule:

                            Mon 8th Feb, Tangent: Twilight506
                            Wed 10th Feb, The Curse: Josiane
                            Fri 12th Feb, The Serpent's Venom: Fri Rachel500
                            Wed 15th Feb, Chain Reaction: Twilight506
                            Fri 17th Feb, 2010: Josiane
                            Mon 19th Feb, Absolute Power: Cags
                            Wed 22nd Feb, The Light: Rachel500
                            Fri 24th Feb, Prodigy: Josiane
                            Mon 26th Feb, Entity: Twilight506
                            Wed 1st Mar, Double Jeopardy: Cags
                            Fri 3rd Mar, Exodus: Josiane


                            If anyone is going to have any real difficulties doing those dates, please shout and we can, maybe do a swap shop or draft in reserves.
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                              Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                              Umm, yes, but first...

                              Probably easiest if we just push things back a few days so, if we pick up from tomorrow with whichever episode was origincally on Monday... is that ok with everyone?
                              OK by me
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                                Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                                Tangent:

                                My absolute favorite part of this episode is actually Jacob and Sam's relationship. And it's indirectly shippy, really. 'Cause its such a classic father-child bit between them here: he starts out upset that she's 'disturbing' his work, and then as soon as he finds out Teal'c and Jack are in trouble, he drops it and gets to work saving them. But... as soon as they get a quite moment again, Dad goes into lecture mode with Sam on why she shouldn't have done what she did that got her into trouble in the first place. It's just... brilliant. Absolute normalcy in the midst of outrageous circumstance cause it's - effectively, "Dad, can you come get us... We're in trouble" and, no matter how old they get, Dad's gonna drop everything for his kid.

                                Yes, I too like that about this epsidoe. never mind that I'm a fan of Jacob episodes anyway (because he is dad, after all).

                                Cause I believe Jacob has known more or less all along how Sam feels about Jack (and vice versa) so he has an extra sympathy for her desperation in saving him. It's not just going to save his kids friends, but his kids friend..
                                Interesting because I've always pondered about how much Jacob knows or suspects. I think, givent hat he has a very wise and very old Tok'ra sitting in his head there's not going to be much that passes him by so I too believe he had some idea their bond was more than, ell, it should have been.
                                I think there's also an element that Jacob likes Jack for who he is too. POssibly a lot of this is because they do have a lot of very similar personality traits and I think they are both fairly straight talking guys who like other guys to be straight talking with them (and possibly this is one reason why Jack's relationship with Daniel has always been slightly antagonistc - because as much as they respect and care for each other, they are almost polar opposites personality wise.)
                                Sam is very like her dad so it follows that he'd like Jacob too. And the fact that he's got and Air Force background himself probably helps.


                                I also do think there's something vaguely shippy in Jack's response on waking to seeing and hearing that it's Sam there calling to him. Sort of as though he's responding to her when he might not bother with anyone else.. which is a continuation of the ongoing theme of her desperation not to lose him and his being there for her when he might not necessarily want to be and when he wouldn't necessarily make as much effort for anyone else... Or, IOW, if it hadn't been *Sam* calling his name and insisting he wake up he might not have bothered.
                                Hmm, interesting. I never questioned whether he'd wake up as such, but I do think that the line "Do you trust me?" is a very interetsing choice of phrase for Sam given the situation. I know Jack's supposed to be oxygen deprived but I would not have thought that disorientation would cause paranoia enough to question his unyielding and blinding faith in Sam to pull the impossible out of her... head. As she does. I think Sam's just about desperate enough at this point to say anything to get him to do what she needs him to do to save him.


                                Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                                [B]Tangent

                                For me, it's very much a team episode - just as Solitudes was. Here we have Sam and Daniel doing absolutely everything they can to save Jack and Teal'c to the point of going into Goa'uld territory in search of Jacob. And in the ship we have Teal'c and Jack being awesome and Teal'c telling Jack how much he means to him.

                                Yes, very much and I never really noticed a similarity like this before so thanks for pointing it out. It's also quite nice to see the dynamic of Sam and Daniel working together since we don't get much of that (and even less of Sam and Teal'c but that's another discussion.
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