Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[JenniferJF]

I agree with you. I don't think anything happened. No discussion about relationships. They simply dont do that.

I think they were simply stranded on a world and had a week to sit around and do nothing. Not work, not command, not fight for their lives. Nothing. A vacation, of sorts. Just on another planet. And through just normal interaction Jack and Sam would have learned a bit more about each other and become more relaxed.

I also agree.. as do I... er..

And, considering nearly all their interactions have been purely professional and 'work-related', I don't think we can look lightly on the effect a week of *not* working might have had on them. They would have been forced to entertain each other (out of the gutter, ladies) and Teal'c, and would certainly have learned a lot about *who* the other person really was beneath the military facade and the uniform. (again, I said OUT!)

I have a friend who hates the idea that after Threads Sam and Jack might have quickly gotten together without getting to know each other 'off duty' first, but I personally thing there were enough times - like that between S3 and S4 - when they would have really gotten to know each so that, by the time we see them in S8, they actually know more about each other as individuals than most people do going into a marriage.

[josiane]

<snip>
Sam/Jack Analysis
Where to begin?? Jack and Sam's connection through the military is so very obvious. Sam obeys Jack without question (something that remains consistent with her character throughout the series). She trusts Jack. I think that's why that final scene shocks her. She sees a side of Jack that she has never seen before or if she has, she's denied it. This wasn't them shooting at someone and Jack taking him down, this was Jack very calmly and very deliberately ordering the execution of a man. The fact that she sees into his soul and later accepts him, loves him, is a testimony to the grace the Sam Carter carries inside her. I see Jack's relationship with Sam as almost his redemption in a way. He cannot atone for what happened with Charlie and yet Sam teaches him that he doesn't have to. Here is the moment though, where she is confronted with that darkness and she has to decide for herself what it means and if Jack is still the same man she laughs with. Just a day before he was teasing her about getting a life, and now he's deadly serious. Her job maybe academically complicated but Jack's job is morally complicated. So the question she has to ask herself - is he still trustworthy? And we see she answers yes. That unlike Daniel, she gets it. She gets the messiness of war and fighting, and that I think will help solidify that bond between them.

Wow, Twilight, that was a fabulous analysis! I particularly like that point that I've bolded there, that this is actually a more significant moment for Sam and Jack than I think certainly I've considered it before. And in that case I think the timing of it is significant. They've got over the tension of the later part of S3 (in particular Shades of Grey, which is really the last time we saw Jack go hard in this way before this), and reached the point of comfort and equality that we've seen in Small Victories, and then we get this - a real dash of cold water for both of them. Sam, because she is reminded of Jack's dark side, and Jack, because he realises that he cares what she thinks of him. And it's the fact that this doesn't change anything between them, that they still careen off down that slope towards the forceshield moment, that is so significant I think. They receive this slap, and yet both choose not to let it affect their relationship. I wonder, if they had, whether things would have unfolded differently afterwards? I don't mean on the grand scale, but whether they might have started easing back from each other earlier? Just a thought

[Nynaeve506]

Wow, Twilight, that was a fabulous analysis! I particularly like that point that I've bolded there, that this is actually a more significant moment for Sam and Jack than I think certainly I've considered it before. And in that case I think the timing of it is significant. They've got over the tension of the later part of S3 (in particular Shades of Grey, which is really the last time we saw Jack go hard in this way before this), and reached the point of comfort and equality that we've seen in Small Victories, and then we get this - a real dash of cold water for both of them. Sam, because she is reminded of Jack's dark side, and Jack, because he realises that he cares what she thinks of him. And it's the fact that this doesn't change anything between them, that they still careen off down that slope towards the forceshield moment, that is so significant I think. They receive this slap, and yet both choose not to let it affect their relationship. I wonder, if they had, whether things would have unfolded differently afterwards? I don't mean on the grand scale, but whether they might have started easing back from each other earlier? Just a thought

I think I picked up this point because in my own life on a much milder scale, my husband was once confronted with my rather headstrong personality and he had to decide whether or not that was the kind of woman he wanted to pursue (and well we know how that turned out ). You asked about what happens afterwards... I've just been watching Sanctuary for the first time...

Spoiler:

There's a scene where Helen tells John that while he might have been driven to be a murderer there had to have been some urge in there somewhere for ti have been possible. For that, despite the fact that he's trying to make amends, she's kept him at arms length. While Jack is no Ripper, I think Sam is faced with the inner-demons - the inner monster that is carefully controlled through military training and a strict sense of justice, but is there nonetheless, and she chooses instead to believe that the good in him matters more. It's not an exact analogy by any means, but I feel like there might be something there but I can't precisely describe it

[Cagranosalis]

Lovely analysis of The Other Side, Twi. I have nothing to add except to nod and agree and think you pretty much nailed it for me there.

[JenniferJF]

I think I picked up this point because in my own life on a much milder scale, my husband was once confronted with my rather headstrong personality and he had to decide whether or not that was the kind of woman he wanted to pursue (and well we know how that turned out ). You asked about what happens afterwards... I've just been watching Sanctuary for the first time...

Spoiler:

There's a scene where Helen tells John that while he might have been driven to be a murderer there had to have been some urge in there somewhere for ti have been possible. For that, despite the fact that he's trying to make amends, she's kept him at arms length. While Jack is no Ripper, I think Sam is faced with the inner-demons - the inner monster that is carefully controlled through military training and a strict sense of justice, but is there nonetheless, and she chooses instead to believe that the good in him matters more. It's not an exact analogy by any means, but I feel like there might be something there but I can't precisely describe it

Its interesting you used a RL example, too, because in a way, while both the fictional examples are obviously hyperbole, part of the process of falling in love - as differs from simple infatuation - is seeing both the good and the bad and accepting the bad along with the good. So in order for what Sam felt for Jack to be *really* love, it had to survive through her seeing the darkest part of who he was as well as the comedic and heroic.

EDIT: And Twi.. You've watched EoN... where's my PM?

[EvenstarSRV]

And that, I think hits the nail on the head for me as to why I like this ship so much. It was allowed to developed completely naturally and without rushing it. So it feels natural. Some series you see they start out having a relationship scenario in mind and they can force the issue - with or without the chemistry being there to start with - and sometimes (even if the chemistry works) it's too much too soon or just too contrived. SG-1 though; probably because the ship wasn't the main focus or even really on the agenda early on and happened almost incidently as a direct result of the chemistry and friendship you can see the actors have transferring on screen, then it just works beautifully and it makes sense. To me anyway.

Well said, and the naturalness of most of it is why I don't mind and often enjoyed the Sam/Jack ship (that I saw) in the series. The only time that I feel the writers really forced the issue was the Pete stuff in Affinity.

I realise you're not a shipper per se but, actually your views aren't overly different from mine. Although I confess I read a lot more shippyness into scenes and actions when I do these reviews but that's beacuse this is a ship discussion thread and I want to pick points for people to discuss, but in general a lot of the more subtle stuff I could see either way; I just chose to see it shippy because, ultimately, that's where TPTB led me - kicking and screaming I might add since I was fairly adamant that I liked the chemistry and the storytelling (most especially the angst) but never really wanted a resolution. Well not until they went ahead and did it (IMO and many others) in Threads. Oh and yes then I thought "hey, if you're going to have them go fishing together, great, let's but see some tongue action too."

Hehe, I must confess, the number of times my views have coincided with various shippers' views on this thread has had me kinda doubting my non-shipper credentials.

But I think it's more that I rather passively view the show and accept what they show me unless it's jarring or doesn't make sense to me based on what I've previously seen on the show. So I probably miss most of the subtler shippy stuff because it has to be rather obvious for me to pick up on it.

And I'll go with the others and say that your review of the Other Side was just fantastic Twilight, and I esp agree with your interpretation of the ending scene on the ramp, I think that was the first time Sam really came face-to-face with BlackOps Jack.

I also think that while Sam seemed shocked at the harsh choice Jack made, she was also complicit in it, because she could have spoken up and said that Alar was right behind them but she didn't. So as much as Sam was confronted with Jack's dark side in that scene, I think Sam was also confronted with her own to a certain extent.

[Nynaeve506]

And I'll go with the others and say that your review of the Other Side was just fantastic Twilight, and I esp agree with your interpretation of the ending scene on the ramp, I think that was the first time Sam really came face-to-face with BlackOps Jack.

I also think that while Sam seemed shocked at the harsh choice Jack made, she was also complicit in it, because she could have spoken up and said that Alar was right behind them but she didn't. So as much as Sam was confronted with Jack's dark side in that scene, I think Sam was also confronted with her own to a certain extent.

You're right - it's not unlike the earlier scene when talking Hammond where she just conveniently doesn't bother to mention the weapons aspect of deuterium. So I wonder if in seeing BlackOps Jack she's also realizing that there's something of that in herself. Jack knows it's there and essentially has learned to live with it whereas I think Sam is just starting to discover it within herself.

EDIT: And I want thank everyone for their compliments on my review :: blushes :: I just love this episode LOL (too bad I wasn't excited about half the things I had to talk about in my papers in college...)

[Nefer]

Ah, yes. Nazis in space. I really enjoyed the ambiguity (if that is the right word) of the planet, that it weren't clear what was going on from the beginning. Although the idea was a carried out a little bit too on the nose for my taste. And I also liked that the whole thing was pretty much set in this bunker (I can't get excited about SFX like some people). Because it showed Jack's decision on a purely intellectual level, so to speak.

Fave Scene: When Jack and Daniel argue. It makes my skin crawl. So much drama. Although I essentially tend to side with Daniel on questions of morality, I can also understand, that some decisions have to be made. This scene showed nicely, that neither viewpoint is 'wrong'.

I agree with all of you on the rest. I just *love* that they showed Jack's darker side for once. I wish they'd have done that more often. A similar scene is in Unnatural selection when he cheats Fifth out of his 'ride'.

[Cagranosalis]

Banner by Jasmina

Synopsis

A Tok’ra scientist called Anise arrives with armband devices designed to give the wearer enhanced physical strength and agility. She wants to test the armbands on humans and proposes to use SG1 as guinea pigs; the armbands do not work on Tok’ra or Jaffa physiology because of the symbiote. Jack is the first to be fitted out under the watchful eyes of Janet and Anise. Initially, it seems that it has had no effect but later in sparring with Teal’c he knocks out the Jaffa. Daniel and Sam join the experiment and both show increased abilities. Janet becomes concerned when her own tests reveal the presence of a virus and she clashes with Anise about the safety of the armbands. Hammond orders the armbands to be removed and they discover the armbands do not come off once put on.

Janet tries to enlist Sam’s help to understand how to get the armbands off but Sam tells her that she doesn’t want to remove it having written a book on Wormhole Physics in an hour. When Jack injures Siler, Hammond confines them to a room. They crave meat and break out of the SGC to go for a meal at a local restaurant, only realising when they are there, that they are breaking orders. When Daniel gets called a geek, the three get into a brawl.

In the morning, Hammond takes them to task and Daniel notes that the devices seem to be impairing their judgement. Anise tells Hammond that she has received word from the Tok’ra Council of a new ship Apophis is building and would like to test the armbands in a combat situation by sending SG1 into the field. Hammond refuses, noting he is being manipulated. Jack, Daniel and Sam though waste no time in breaking their orders and going through the Stargate to destroy the ship, telling Teal’c that he can’t go with them. They are oblivious to Anise’s latest data which shows their bodies are beginning to form antibodies to combat the armband’s virus; the armbands may stop working at any moment.

On the planet, the three make quick work of the Jaffa guards at the gate and head into the ship. Daniel goes after a stash of naquadah while Jack and Sam plant the C4. Daniel suddenly collapses and his armband comes off; Teal’c turns up to rescue them and Jack orders him to get Daniel to safety while Sam and he complete the mission. An alarm resets force-shields all over the ship. Unfortunately, Sam’s armband stops working just as they are passing through a force-shield; when Jack goes back for her, his also stops. The two lie unconscious either side of the force-shield. Daniel and Teal’c wait for their team-mates at the tunnel exit; unable to help as a force-shield prevents their return. Jack and Sam wake and Jack tries to find a way to free Sam before Apophis’s Jaffa reach her or the C4 blows. But they run out of time. Fortunately, when the C4 explodes, the force-shield lowers unexpectedly. SG1 run for the Stargate and only just make it back to Earth as the ship explodes.

Back on Earth, Jack, Sam and Daniel apologise to Hammond; Teal’c claims he doesn’t have to – he was following orders. As the three head to the infirmary, Anise’s host Freya tells a bemused Jack she hopes they can work together again.

Review taken from Rachel500’s Aftershocks tag.



Favourite Scene

(I always struggle to pick just one scene, so please indulge me.)

The whole scene at O’Malley’s. You’ve got to wonder if they are still banned from there.

There’s also a great scene where a staff weapon is fired at Jack and Sam and the dodge it is slow motion which is just wonderful.

Oh and a lovely cut when we go from Daniel, Sam and Jack looking at a screen seeing the new mothership, the laptop is turned and we’re suddenly in Hammond’s office with him and Teal’c looking at the same image. I just love the way that’s put together.


Favourite Line

Hammond: "I thought the devices were supposed to enhance them physically not make them stupid."


Review

I love this episode. Not only is this THE episode where the pivotal forceshield scene actually happened (even though we don’t really see it) but it’s got some great off base/at leisure scenes and lots of humour and great lines. Actually the scene in O’Malleys is one of my all time top scenes, not only because I think all three of them look exceptionally hot here, but because every time I see Sam sink that trick shot, I think of poor old Martin Wood being $200 lighter (it’s in the commentary if you’re interested).

At first this seems to be your fairly typical SG-1 does superheroes episode but, actually, that’s almost just the canvass on which the true story is painted. There are lots and lots of layers to the story.
First we have the slightly delinquent and rebellious attitudes of Sam, Daniel and Jack, which we see from fairly early on but which we watch them slowly and surely get more and more distracted by the armband’s influences and become less rational and less concerned about the consequences of their actions. This in itself is interesting considering that inscription on the armbands "With great power comes great responsibility, and the ability to affect great consequences" and the one thing they don’t do is act responsibly, and the one thing they do suffer is significant consequences of their actions. Also, for those who feel Jack (in particular) is very lackadaisical about regulations and following orders, it does highlight how respectful he actually is in normal circumstances.

We also see the introduction of Anise who was supposed to be a sort of love interest for Jack for a while but, fan reaction deemed it not to be. I can’t help wondering if, perhaps, they hadn’t made her so overtly sexual, or if they’d been a bit more subtle about her introduction - i.e. brought her in for a minor role a few episodes back in season 3 - she might have been better received. That became something of a mistake TPTB were apt to make because they did a similar thing with the introduction of Pete and later Cam, although they did get it more or less right with Jonas (which is possibly why he was a much more popular character overall).
I digressed slightly there but given Jack’s barely concealed hostility to the Tok’ra in general (Jacob aside), and his increasing suspiciousness of their motives, I wonder how interesting a story arc with him being attracted to a Tok’ra would have been? I would quite like to have seen the dynamics of that and how it adds to his ambivalence towards them as a whole. In fact, if you listen to the commentary you’ll see there’s a sort of triangle here between Jack, Anise/Freya and Daniel, which, again, we see explored more in Divide & Conquer. I have to be honest and say, without the benefit of the commentary the play of that was far too subtle for me to spot in this episode. Saying all that, I do think it’s a shame Tok’ra Spice only lasted a couple of episodes before she shuffled off, taking her rubber clad boobs with her.
And because I’ve touched on it, another layer in this episode is the exploration of Earth’s relationship with the Tok’ra is covered in some detail, as it turns out that Jack’s suspiciousness isn’t quite so misplaced as we might think. It’s interesting to see Jack and Sam are almost diametrically opposed to their opinions of the Tok’ra through much of the series (something we see in more detail much later on) and in this case, we see it’s not really that black and white. The Tok’ra do have their own agenda, yes, but their ethos that anything and anyone is worth risking for the greater good of defeating the Goa’uld is what makes them markedly different from humans, who place much higher value in an individual life.

And then of course there was that scene - you know, the one where we don’t see anything out of the ordinary and yet, later, we discover something huge happened between Jack and Sam. And right there is the double meaning of the episode name; this episode marked the point where their relationship was upgraded from a nice little flirtatious thing to honest to goodness (and highly dangerous all things considered) love.
I really love the fact that in this episode nothing is obvious or overtly shippy. It’s just team mates refusing to leave the other behind, and even Teal’c and Daniel are playing that game too so there is really no clue at all that something significant happened here. But we all know it did. In the commentary, Martin Wood notes that a lot of fans, after watching Divide & Conquer went back to watch that scene to see if there were any hint. Having the benefit of hindsight I too replayed that bit a couple of times just to see if I missed anything but, really, no, there isn’t a single clue there. I think that’s very clever.


Implications For Sam and Jack

Well, you mean aside from the rather glaringly obvious one that he’d rather have died there and then than lose her? Noooo, nothing comes to mind.
Ahem, ok. I know it’s come up before and probably will again, regarding the issue of Teal’c and Daniel staying too. While I don’t dispute they too stayed when they should have left, and this too is significant as it demonstrates the whole team is too close. However, with Jack I have read here an argument that he couldn’t leave due to that forceshield they encounter but it occurred to me that Teal’c and Daniel walked right through the one on the exit and then turned around and could not go back. So I actually think (and this is just my opinion) that it only got raised once the intruder alarm was sounded just after Teal’c and Daniel passed through - i.e. they had not had to pass through it on the way in (which makes sense or else how did non-superhero Teal’c get in?) Jack would have had no way of knowing that. So if you think he’s standing there staring certain death and Sam in the face thinking, "I might as well die here because I can’t get out anyway" I seriously doubt it. I’m pretty certain the only coherent thought flitting through his brain was something along the lines of "Oh sh…".
Anyway I’m not going to go into a detailed discussion of exactly what they were going through, emotionally, because I am very much looking forward to the D&C review to do that with, which I think is probably where it belongs since we do actually get the emotional stuff played out in much more depth there.

One thing that I question is if they had any kind of post mission discussion about or around what happened there before they went through the Zatarc thing? I don’t think it’s Jack or Sam’s style to do talky feely stuff but there is a sort of acknowledgement in D&C (Jack’s "Oh that") that there is something they are both completely aware of so I do wonder.

[Nefer]

Great analysis, again.

I have to say that I never minded Anise nor did I specifically like her. Personally I just find her hilarious because she is such a cliché 'Space Vixen'. I always see her as a sci-fi joke. And then of course she adds to the conflict between S/J in D&C, but the idea of a serious Anise/Jack-storyline kind of irks me in a way that Sara/Laira/Kerry never did. OK, maybe Kynthia did irk me a little bit.

[JenniferJF]

One thing that I question is if they had any kind of post mission discussion about or around what happened there before they went through the Zatarc thing? I don’t think it’s Jack or Sam’s style to do talky feely stuff but there is a sort of acknowledgement in D&C (Jack’s "Oh that") that there is something they are both completely aware of so I do wonder.

I think that awareness came simply from that unspoken communication they do. By D&C they were both aware of how they'd felt.. they didn't need to discuss it further. They just knew.

[katjoy]

im looking for a hq version of the wedding photo from PoV... if someone can pinpoint where to find a copy could you please let me know... thanks

[Rachel500]

I'm a little behind so let me catch up first with The Other Side...

Like everyone else I have very little to add beyond Twi's excellent review.

I too love the contrast here between Jack at the beginning of Small Victories (playful, charming, relaxed) and the Jack at the end of The Other Side (resolute, military, hard). Jack makes a deliberate decision here to close the iris and kill Alar which shows a very ruthless side to him - reminiscent of Shades of Grey. And agree; that Sam continues the slide to that moment in Upgrades and the confessions of D&C speaks for her love of everything that Jack is the good and the not-so-good. Something I think Jack finds hard to understand initially.

There is also a hint here that Daniel has noticed the extra closeness between Sam and Jack - there is that moment in the SGC where he almost accusing Sam of agreeing with Jack just because it's Jack rather than her doing independent thinking.

Otherwise, nothing more to add!

[Rachel500]

im looking for a hq version of the wedding photo from PoV... if someone can pinpoint where to find a copy could you please let me know... thanks

I'm afraid I don't know but you might also want to ask on the Appreciation thread or the Secrets of Sam/Jack art in the fandom section.

[Rachel500]

<snipped a lot>

We also see the introduction of Anise who was supposed to be a sort of love interest for Jack for a while but, fan reaction deemed it not to be. <lots of snippage> In fact, if you listen to the commentary you’ll see there’s a sort of triangle here between Jack, Anise/Freya and Daniel, which, again, we see explored more in Divide & Conquer.

<snip>

One thing that I question is if they had any kind of post mission discussion about or around what happened there before they went through the Zatarc thing? I don’t think it’s Jack or Sam’s style to do talky feely stuff but there is a sort of acknowledgement in D&C (Jack’s "Oh that") that there is something they are both completely aware of so I do wonder.

Great review, Cags.

Just picking up on a few things that you mention in the stuff I haven't snipped. Firstly, the whole Anise/Freya - Jack - Daniel thing. It is hinted at in Upgrades and comes to fruition on D&C. The thing I've always found fascinating is that idea that the host and symbiote could favour different partners after the whole 'we love as one' put forth by Martouf in The Tok'ra. For some reason, I always think of Anise as being a reasonably seasoned mature woman stuck in the body of the sweet and immature Freya who we later learn comes from a very sexually unrepressed planet (which may also explain her dress). Conversely, I would have loved Anise to have stayed around as a potential love interest for Daniel. I too wonder if she'd actually always been dressed as the other Tok'ra women we saw or in the Tok'ra uniform that Martouf and Jacob sported whether opinion would have been so against her.

Secondly, Sam & Jack. If there is a moment where I think they could have screwed the regs, the time they spend sporting the armbands is it because their chemistry is so out of whack it is hugely affecting their judgement. However, I don't think they did screw the regs or I think their reactions in D&C and beyond would have been much different.

Jack's 'oh that' in D&C to Sam's prompt of 'our working relationship, military ranks' is one of the reasons I do think something was said in a vague non-discussion at some point. Because for me that moment in D&C is Sam prompting his memory using terms he would remember them using before to "not-discuss" it. I agree that after Upgrades is a moment where it could have happened. For me though, if they had discussed the forceshield moment after the mission, I think they would have connected the dots sooner in D&C. That's why I tend to place the "non-discussion" happening when they're offworld between Nemesis and Small Victories. So after Upgrades, I don't think they do discuss it because while I think the forceshield moment was the 'OMG, we love each other' moment, I think they'd already acknowledged 'maybe we have feelings but we're not going to do anything about it' in a previous non-discussion so there was nothing more to discuss after Upgrades.

Finally, my favourite scene/line is at the end when they arrive back at the SGC, and Jack, Sam and Daniel apologise to Hammond. They all look at Teal'c and he just goes, 'I have no need to apologise.' Makes me smile every time.