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    Fantastic review VSS, and some greta points there raised by everyone.


    I too think the key to the success of this episode is it's placement right after A Hundred Days because it's not so out of the blue for him to do this after such a significant event.

    The scene in the corridor is just heartbreaking. Poor Sam. First time I saw this I wanted to punch Jack's lights out. I'm not really sure, timescale wise, how soon after the previous episode these events are supposed to be but if you assume within a matter of weeks at most... really they've had no time to find their feet again as a team before the rug is pulled out from under them.


    Originally posted by Aveo_amacus View Post
    I agree with all of what you've said so I'm not going to repeat it!

    the only other thing is I remember the first time I watched this ep I wondered (possibly due to Sam-fan tendencies) if Sam was in on it when they introduce Makepeace, Daniel is really pushing for Sam to lead SG1 (although now probably due to Daniel not wanting to disrupt his family again/any more) and Sam doesn't mind and is willing to have a new CO. Now I think it was probably just Sam being a good soldier so nevermind!
    Hmm, interesting thought but I agree with your second thought that probably not. I think Sam was as surprised and hurt as anyone and that kind of feeling isn't something you could easily fake. I did once read a fic with the premise that the rest of SG-1 worked it out on their own. It seems feasible but I don't, personally, think they did.

    One rather telling thing here too, during that breifing scene when Hammond directs a question at Sam about the device, she stumbles and you can see how torn she is between duty to the truth and her loyalty to Jack. On the one hand, if she lies about it then she's making herself complicit to a made up crime but yet she really struggles to drop Jack in it. Jack must have seen this because he immediately steps in and ends the charade by admitting to his crime thus saving her from having to make the choice. I realise this is all a facade since Hammond is in on it and probably would have to make things look realistic by asking others on the team about it as well as Jack but, I don't think Jack expected Sam to be put in that position, nor did he expect her to struggle with it. Just the very fact that she did must have sent a little tiny bell going in his head somewhere. But also worth remembering the reason the rest of the team were not in on it was because there was a mole at the SGC so nobody was above suspicion. Had Sam covered for him, not only would it have serious consequences for her career but it would have probably made her the prime suspect in the mole hunt at the SGC.

    Actually the whole bit where Jack is spying on them when they come through the gate is also interesting because, at this point we don't know who the contact at the SGC is. We find out here that it's someone from SG-1. We, as an audience, can be reasonably certain it's not Daniel because he would be totally against this kind of thing. We can be fairly certain it's not Teal'c because his loyalty is pledged to the SGC and I get the feeling Jaffa take duty and honour pretty seriously. And we're sure it's not Sam because she's too dedicated and loyal to her job. But to Jack... in that briefing she was almost ready to lie for him... maybe he's missed something? And she is the tecchy person so the logical person to pass stuff on to. I can see Jack, seeing SG-1 step through the gate and be suddenly hit with the thought "oh dear god don't let it be her please". Later he does the same thing with Teal'c (as he stands by the DHD) so he does have to make himself doubt his own team which must be one heck of a thing to bounce back from and strengthen their bonds again. I reckon they probably got sent off to build towers of furniture at some team building event after that!

    On the final part when Jack is left standing with his team in the gate room after the big reveal. The expression on Sam's face is interesting; she does show understanding here. There's a ghost of a smile and I think she realises he was doing his job. I think she and Teal'c probably have an easier time accepting it than Daniel, although I am sure, at some point later on from this they all had time to reflect there was fall out.
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      Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
      The scene in the corridor is just heartbreaking. Poor Sam. First time I saw this I wanted to punch Jack's lights out. I'm not really sure, timescale wise, how soon after the previous episode these events are supposed to be but if you assume within a matter of weeks at most... really they've had no time to find their feet again as a team before the rug is pulled out from under them.
      I agree. I wanted to punch Jack, too. I do wish we'd been given some indication of how long after Jack's rescue from Edora that this episode took place. There are a couple of fanfictions out there that suggest Hammond actually went to Edora to see Jack before he got back to earth and present him with the situation and tell him about his "assignment".

      Hmm, interesting thought but I agree with your second thought that probably not. I think Sam was as surprised and hurt as anyone and that kind of feeling isn't something you could easily fake. I did once read a fic with the premise that the rest of SG-1 worked it out on their own. It seems feasible but I don't, personally, think they did.
      I read that one, too. It was pretty good. There's more than one story where SG1 worked out what was really going on. One of them had them figuring it out early on. Another one had them figuring it out, but not for quite awhile, after finding some clues that Jack had left for them.

      Jack must have seen this because he immediately steps in and ends the charade by admitting to his crime thus saving her from having to make the choice.
      In spite of finding out later that this was all a "sting", this bit is about the only time in the episode where (for me) Jack redeemed himself.

      But to Jack... in that briefing she was almost ready to lie for him... maybe he's missed something? And she is the tecchy person so the logical person to pass stuff on to. I can see Jack, seeing SG-1 step through the gate and be suddenly hit with the thought "oh dear god don't let it be her please".
      I find it hard to think that Jack could ever think Sam might possibly be the traitor. My reason for that is he now has to know just how hard she worked to get him back from Edora. And given that she worked night and day with hardly any rest during "100 Days" to invent and build a machine that didn't exist ... when would she have had time to do anything even remotely related to stealing technology? And I rather doubt that the stealing of technology from other races stopped completely during that 100 Days.

      On the final part when Jack is left standing with his team in the gate room after the big reveal. The expression on Sam's face is interesting; she does show understanding here. There's a ghost of a smile and I think she realises he was doing his job. I think she and Teal'c probably have an easier time accepting it than Daniel, although I am sure, at some point later on from this they all had time to reflect there was fall out.
      In spite of the fact that what Jack did was for a good cause and all that, I think he's the only one that has to figure out a way to re-earn the trust and devotion of his team. Regardless of why he did it, it's not something a group as close as they are can just "get over it". It is interesting that Jack chose only Daniel to actually "apologize" to - though I understand that, given the scene in Jack's living room. This is two episodes in a row now where he ignored Sam's feelings and made no effort of any kind to make amends with her. (Because she's a "good soldier" and would understand doesn't make it okay to overlook her feelings - IMO)

      And just a little other comment about the earlier incident in the corridor when Jack said he hadn't been acting like himself since meeting her - I never saw anything about Sam to indicate she'd been crying before running into him in the corridor. Sam Carter would never do that - especially not at the SGC where people might see indications of that and wonder why. She might do it at home where nobody was around to see it, though. I thought she looked tired and worried, but nothing more than that.

      Just my 2 cents worth ...

      Comment


        I have so many tests and so much homework to do that I really shouldn't be on GW but I've been studying hard for weeks now and I need a break Therefore I finally caught up with the thread and your great posts and as it turns out I don't need to post anything about 100 days because I'd be repeating Cags word for word. I agree with everything she wrote.
        So now..

        Originally posted by VSS View Post
        [B]

        And of course, she is. When Sam encounters Jack in the hallway, it's clear she's been crying- but as part of his ruse he can't cut her break even then. As I said in the beginning- she- and Teal'c- believe him because what he says is believable: "I haven't acted like myself since I met you. Now, I'm acting like myself." Just like with Daniel later on, and his complaints about Tollan, the essence of what he says is true- it's what he does with those thoughts, the conclusion that he draws and the ensuing behavior that comprise the deception. But what an extraordinary thing for a CO to tell an subordinate, right there in the hallway. Not what anyone would expect, but completely believable because it's apparent that something unusual has developed in his feelings for a certain Sam Carter.
        I'm afraid that I'll have to duck from rotten vegetables for this, but.. Firstly, I agree with hedwig that I can't see anything in the scene in the corridor suggesting Sam's been crying. I agree she wouldn't let herself cry on base and she would never let Jack see her doing so, especially now when he hurt her.

        Secondly - and this is the rotten-vegetable-worthy part - I've never seen Jack's line "I haven't acted like myself since I met you. Now, I'm acting like myself." in a romantic, or even shippy way *ducks* and despite all your interesting and thought-provoking comments I still can't. I've always taken it to mean that "since I met you" = "since I joined the SGC" and by "acting like himself" he means the kind of job he now does. Before he joined the SGC he'd been in the Black Ops, doing dirty, under-the-table stuff, these "damn distasteful things" he mentioned in "Cor-Ai" but he stopped all this when he became leader of SG-1. In later episodes Maybourne often hints at how amazed he is that Jack clings so hard to honour and morality while his military files suggest he should be prone to doing things in a less, shall we say "clean", way. But here, in SoG Jack is back to his old self in the sense that once again he has to play dirty to do his job and judging by his face he doesn't like it one bit.

        So yes, he's telling the truth but this truth can be understood in many ways.

        Also, I'm sure someone will point out the significance of the opera, IL Pagliacci- IIRC it's about a man who has to pretend he's someone he isn't. Or you could just take it more superficially because the English translation is "The Clown" and it's playing when Maybourne walks up. And I would be remiss if I didn't point out how totally hot Jack looks the entire time he's at his house- it's almost enough to make me forgive him. Almost.

        I didn't know that, thanks for the info! It certainly adds a new layer(s) to the scene.

        Originally posted by Rachel500
        I do think Shades of Grey shows just how smart Jack is and how ruthless he could be when he needed to be.

        It's sometimes easy to forget that Jack was used to operating very effectively as a shark and not a dolphin - and here he's a shark.

        I do think Jack had to be severe with the team because if he hadn't pushed them away so hard, the risk was that they would have interfered (even in a well-meaning way) and endangered the sting. And I do think a lot of his humour at the end and making light of events is his way of trying to cover-up his own worry that he's pushed them away too hard.
        Exactly, that's how I see it too. At this point SG-1 is pretty much the only family he has and they know him well. He probably was afraid that they could start to suspect something and therefore endanger the operation or their concern could break *him* and make him say/do somrthing he shouldn't so he decided to push them so far away that they wouldn't even be interested in finding out what's going on. And the most effective way was to hurt them as much as possible and hope they'll be able to understand and forgive him once they know the truth.

        I do think Sam as soon as she realises that it was a mission, intellectually understands and accepts that Jack was performing a mission. Indeed, I think she'd jump on the idea that all his actions and behaviour had been part of the mission and write off everything under that heading. I can't see Sam being mad in the aftermath (whereas I can see Daniel still be latently angry for a long while towards Jack). However, I think she'd still be inwardly hurt whether she admitted it or not, realised it consciously or not (and that plays into her coolness in subsequent episodes).
        Again, I agree. Sam and Teal'c are soldiers, they understood the situation and eventually forgave him, even if it took a lot of time - which is pretty much what he'd been hoping for. He singled Daniel out in his apology because Danny on the other hand didn't have that military mindset and was most likely to hold the grudge. And really, when you think of it this way, it's just another proof of how much Jack values Sam as an officer.

        Originally posted by Cagranosalis
        One rather telling thing here too, during that breifing scene when Hammond directs a question at Sam about the device, she stumbles and you can see how torn she is between duty to the truth and her loyalty to Jack. On the one hand, if she lies about it then she's making herself complicit to a made up crime but yet she really struggles to drop Jack in it. Jack must have seen this because he immediately steps in and ends the charade by admitting to his crime thus saving her from having to make the choice. I realise this is all a facade since Hammond is in on it and probably would have to make things look realistic by asking others on the team about it as well as Jack but, I don't think Jack expected Sam to be put in that position, nor did he expect her to struggle with it. Just the very fact that she did must have sent a little tiny bell going in his head somewhere. But also worth remembering the reason the rest of the team were not in on it was because there was a mole at the SGC so nobody was above suspicion. Had Sam covered for him, not only would it have serious consequences for her career but it would have probably made her the prime suspect in the mole hunt at the SGC.
        This is a very interesting thought, one I entertained myself. I also agree that the writers probably intended to make it seem like Jack had to wonder if his team was completely above reproach and the first time I watched the ep I admit I caught myself thinking pretty much like Jack: "Please don't let it be someone from SG-1" Of course then, back in 1999/2000, I didn't have the Internet and had no idea that fandom existed so there was always a possibilty that someone from the main cast could be removed..

        As for the bolded part, IMO it's the most shippy scene in the episode. Sam clearly doesn't know what to do; she's duty bound to report her CO but then, it's *The Colonel*; the guy who means the world to her, even if she doesn't realise she's in love with him yet. And I think it takes Jack by surprise: he expected her to follow the rules and tell Hammond he's a thief, but she doesn't, so he takes matters into his own hands saving her in the process. I find this little exchange to be more telling than the one from the corridor.
        There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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          I think there is an element in the briefing room scene where Sam gets asked the question and later when Jack spies on her where it could be interpreted that Jack was also considering whether Sam was in on it (and actually I will concede that I even think that's what was supposed to be inferred) but this is really where the characterisation/continuity just doesn't add up with that interpretation for me.

          IMO, I just can't see Jack ever suspecting Sam. And I think he'd dismiss it as ludicrous, laugh even, if it was suggested to him that she was involved with stealing technology. I do think Jack puts Sam and Daniel into a box which says 'good guys' right from the start and views them effectively as the light to his darkness. As much as Jack would never think Daniel would be willing to steal technology, I would think he'd believe the same of Sam. And even Teal'c, who I think Jack feels more of an affinity towards in terms of the background and having to do unsavoury stuff, I don't think would fall under Jack's suspicion because even if he's capable of it, he wouldn't do it.

          Again, perhaps the positioning after A Hundred Days was meant to suggest that Jack's been away from them for a long enough period for him to have doubts but...no.

          Given that his team have just gone above and beyond to bring him home and they're his team - and he knows and trusts them implicitly,...I just can't see it.

          So as I can't see Jack interpreting Sam's hesitation in the briefing for guilt, I'm left with interpreting that scene as Jack getting another clue about Sam's feelings for him given that she struggled between her loyalty to him and her duty in the briefing room. I think the reason he does jump in and protect her, is because he's worried himself on some level perhaps just subconsciously that she will lie for him and even though it's a set-up she'd get into trouble.

          Moreover, given this interpretation, if he's not worried about her guilt then the scene when he spies on her becomes more personal too. Because why would his eyes linger on her so much if he doesn't suspect her? Because she's hot; because he's missing her; because he's worried about her?

          So, yeah, in summary, I think they (as writers/directors) might have been going for a suggestion of does Jack suspect Sam, but to me that suggestion makes no sense at all and if you discount that motivation in the scenes than the only other motivation that makes sense is a more personal, feeling feelings, one.
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            Originally posted by col aga View Post
            I<snip>

            Secondly - and this is the rotten-vegetable-worthy part - I've never seen Jack's line "I haven't acted like myself since I met you. Now, I'm acting like myself." in a romantic, or even shippy way *ducks* and despite all your interesting and thought-provoking comments I still can't. I've always taken it to mean that "since I met you" = "since I joined the SGC" and by "acting like himself" he means the kind of job he now does. Before he joined the SGC he'd been in the Black Ops, doing dirty, under-the-table stuff, these "damn distasteful things" he mentioned in "Cor-Ai" but he stopped all this when he became leader of SG-1. In later episodes Maybourne often hints at how amazed he is that Jack clings so hard to honour and morality while his military files suggest he should be prone to doing things in a less, shall we say "clean", way. But here, in SoG Jack is back to his old self in the sense that once again he has to play dirty to do his job and judging by his face he doesn't like it one bit.

            So yes, he's telling the truth but this truth can be understood in many ways.

            <snip>
            No rotten-vegetable throwing, I promise.

            But I did want to just comment on this because I partly agree with you on "acting like myself" meaning to refer to himself and what he used to do, how he used to be. Totally agree in fact that he is referring to the fact that he is used to playing in the grey, in the morally dubious arena, that distasteful things were par for the course for him.

            However, I think the thing that makes that statement personal to Sam is that he actually doesn't say 'I haven't been acting like myself since I came here/joined the SGC' - he does say 'since I met you'.

            Now whether that's a slip of the tongue or his words were chosen - it makes that statement all about Sam for me.

            Since he met her, he's not been doing those things, acting that way, wanting to be in the morally dubious ground anymore. And maybe part of that is that she has inspired him to want to take the moral high ground, to be a better man; that Sam has impacted his behaviour as a person.

            And actually thinking about it, given I do interpret that scene as a personal reference comparison (in simplistic terms, she's good, he's not), for me it's another indicator that he wouldn't suspect her.
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              Originally posted by col aga View Post

              I'm afraid that I'll have to duck from rotten vegetables for this, but.. Firstly, I agree with hedwig that I can't see anything in the scene in the corridor suggesting Sam's been crying. I agree she wouldn't let herself cry on base and she would never let Jack see her doing so, especially now when he hurt her.

              Actually I never thought she was crying. She's just come out of the control room so unlikely she was. I did think Sam has a bit of a red nose there though, but just assumed AT had a cold of hayfever or something.


              Secondly - and this is the rotten-vegetable-worthy part - I've never seen Jack's line "I haven't acted like myself since I met you. Now, I'm acting like myself." in a romantic, or even shippy way *ducks* and despite all your interesting and thought-provoking comments I still can't.

              Well I have to confess the discussion about it here has made me wonder how personal the comment was. I do think it's personal in that Jack was deliberately attempting to push her away because, depsite doing something as reprehensible as stealing, it's clear Sam is of the mindset to be loyal to him and he needs her not to be. I think the shippy spin on it, while inadvertently true, wasn't intentional by Jack.


              Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
              I think there is an element in the briefing room scene where Sam gets asked the question and later when Jack spies on her where it could be interpreted that Jack was also considering whether Sam was in on it (and actually I will concede that I even think that's what was supposed to be inferred) but this is really where the characterisation/continuity just doesn't add up with that interpretation for me.

              IMO, I just can't see Jack ever suspecting Sam. And I think he'd dismiss it as ludicrous, laugh even, if it was suggested to him that she was involved with stealing technology. I do think Jack puts Sam and Daniel into a box which says 'good guys' right from the start and views them effectively as the light to his darkness. As much as Jack would never think Daniel would be willing to steal technology, I would think he'd believe the same of Sam. And even Teal'c, who I think Jack feels more of an affinity towards in terms of the background and having to do unsavoury stuff, I don't think would fall under Jack's suspicion because even if he's capable of it, he wouldn't do it.

              Again, perhaps the positioning after A Hundred Days was meant to suggest that Jack's been away from them for a long enough period for him to have doubts but...no.
              Well I will disagree. Sort of.
              Sort of OT but relevant so...
              Spoiler:

              I used to work as a checkout manager and every now and then we'd have money stolen - big store, lots of cashiers and supervisors it was more or less a given. Although, over time, I did develop a sort of sixth sense about who was likely, if there was an issue to investigate the very first course of action was to suspect everyone and anyone. Historically we could see that it's often the ones you don't think would do it that do (and I know of at least one case where a very valued and long standing member of staff stole and defrauded hundreds of thousands of pounds simply because nobody ever thought to investigate her - she was only caught by a fluke). So even my most trusted cashiers/supervisors were under scrutiny. And yes, even in my own store there were at least two occasions I was completely gobsmacked when we found the culprit - not to mention very upset, angry and disapointed that it was those people. The point is, no matter how much you trust your team, in a situation where there is something dishonest happening and you don't know who it is, the only thing you can do is to distance yourself from everyone and trust no one.


              However I don't think Jack seriously considered his own team as likely suspects but, at the point they come through the gate, all he knows is what the rogue off world team have told him; that he will drop the package off at a planet and the mole will come through on a routine mission on his/her SG team and will pick it up. Then it's SG-1 who come through and there's the four of them, three of which are Jack's team so the odds are that it could be one of them. We don't really know enough about Makepeace to know how honest/trustworthy/friendly he is with Jack but he must have a fairly long and distinguished enough career behind him to be a colonel and appointed the flagship team leader - unless Hammond suspected him and that was deliberate attempt to flush him out - but Jack's reaction when he sees it's SG-1 and then the visible relief when Teal'c moves off from the DHD is enough to make me think he (and Hammond) had no idea who it was up until that point. So there's a very small window between SG-1 arriving on the planet and Makepeace picking up the gizmo that Jack probably does seriously have to consider if it's one of his guys.
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                An invitation for an upcoming event (respectfully spoiled for those who are not interested):

                Spoiler:


                Hugs to all!!!

                Comment


                  Great discussion on 100 Days guys. I haven't been jumping in, in part because of finals and other RL stuff, and in part because I'm rather indifferent to the episode. I don't dislike it, it was well done, just nothing about it really grabbed me, though the joy on Jack's face when he digs Teal'c out is a fantastic moment.

                  Originally posted by col aga View Post
                  Secondly - and this is the rotten-vegetable-worthy part - I've never seen Jack's line "I haven't acted like myself since I met you. Now, I'm acting like myself." in a romantic, or even shippy way *ducks* and despite all your interesting and thought-provoking comments I still can't. I've always taken it to mean that "since I met you" = "since I joined the SGC" and by "acting like himself" he means the kind of job he now does. Before he joined the SGC he'd been in the Black Ops, doing dirty, under-the-table stuff, these "damn distasteful things" he mentioned in "Cor-Ai" but he stopped all this when he became leader of SG-1. In later episodes Maybourne often hints at how amazed he is that Jack clings so hard to honour and morality while his military files suggest he should be prone to doing things in a less, shall we say "clean", way. But here, in SoG Jack is back to his old self in the sense that once again he has to play dirty to do his job and judging by his face he doesn't like it one bit.
                  This is how I understood Jack's statement as well. Jack's joining the SGC did coincide with meeting Sam, but I think his intent was to tell Sam that he's back to being BlackOps Jack and not the Jack she's used to serving with. And I guess I don't really see Sam inspiring Jack to be a 'better' man anymore than Daniel, Teal'c, Hammond and serving at the SGC in general does, so the 'you' part doesn't hold much significance to me.

                  Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                  IMO, I just can't see Jack ever suspecting Sam. And I think he'd dismiss it as ludicrous, laugh even, if it was suggested to him that she was involved with stealing technology.
                  One thing that I think could have made Jack doubt Sam was the fact she went to Maybourne for help in Foothold. He ended up being on the level then, but when Jack found out Maybourne was running the rogue offworld group, he could have perhaps been suspicious as to why Sam chose to contact him.

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                    Originally posted by sg-1fanintn View Post
                    An invitation for an upcoming event (respectfully spoiled for those who are not interested):

                    Spoiler:


                    Hugs to all!!!
                    Melissa, you don't have to spoil that invitation. Here's the description of this thread, from the opening paragraph:

                    Originally posted by auralan View Post
                    This is a pro Sam/Jack ship thread. Unlike the others, this is an OT and fluff free zone. It is only for discussion of Sam and Jack's relationship.

                    <snip>
                    I don't really think a single announcement will turn this into a fluff zone, either. So I'll unspoil it for you:


                    Now, having cleared that up, I do think I know where you're coming from. Reasonable people will disagree what constitutes "pro Sam-Jack" but as far as this thread goes, there are times that I literally don't feel the love, either. Which is neither here nor there, I suppose, just my personal opinion.

                    In the interest of keeping the discussion going, however, would anyone like to sign up to summarize Nemesis? It will be due on the 23rd.

                    Thanks!
                    Last edited by VSS; December 16, 2009, 01:26 AM.

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                      Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                      <snip>

                      However I don't think Jack seriously considered his own team as likely suspects but, at the point they come through the gate, all he knows is what the rogue off world team have told him; that he will drop the package off at a planet and the mole will come through on a routine mission on his/her SG team and will pick it up. Then it's SG-1 who come through and there's the four of them, three of which are Jack's team so the odds are that it could be one of them. We don't really know enough about Makepeace to know how honest/trustworthy/friendly he is with Jack but he must have a fairly long and distinguished enough career behind him to be a colonel and appointed the flagship team leader - unless Hammond suspected him and that was deliberate attempt to flush him out - but Jack's reaction when he sees it's SG-1 and then the visible relief when Teal'c moves off from the DHD is enough to make me think he (and Hammond) had no idea who it was up until that point. So there's a very small window between SG-1 arriving on the planet and Makepeace picking up the gizmo that Jack probably does seriously have to consider if it's one of his guys.
                      I always put Jack's relief down to Teal'c not spotting Jack because there is that moment when Teal'c looks towards where he is.

                      I'm afraid I just can't see Jack distrusting the team or Sam at all even when they come through the gate. For me there is a huge difference between the work I do and the amount of trust invested in the people I work with, and the work a frontline team in the armed forces performs and the amount of trust they have to invest in each other.

                      I also think if Jack had suspected SG1 at any point, then the fallout would have been greater. It's one thing to say 'I had a secret mission because someone has been stealing technology and I'm afraid I acted like an ass because I had to keep you guys out of it', and another to say 'I had a secret mission because someone has been stealing technology and I acted like an ass because you guys were under suspicion'. The damage done to the trust between SG1 would have been greater, IMO, because how do you begin to work with someone again so closely where your lives are at stake who has thought even for a small moment that you couldn't be trusted?

                      Originally posted by VSS View Post

                      <snip>

                      In the interest of keeping the discussion going, however, would anyone like to sign up to summarize Nemesis? It will be due on the 23rd.

                      Thanks!
                      I'll sign up to do Nemesis if no-one else wants to do it.

                      I've really enjoyed everyone's summary posts and appreciate the time you guys put into them
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                        Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                        I'm afraid I just can't see Jack distrusting the team or Sam at all even when they come through the gate. For me there is a huge difference between the work I do and the amount of trust invested in the people I work with, and the work a frontline team in the armed forces performs and the amount of trust they have to invest in each other.

                        I also think if Jack had suspected SG1 at any point, then the fallout would have been greater. It's one thing to say 'I had a secret mission because someone has been stealing technology and I'm afraid I acted like an ass because I had to keep you guys out of it', and another to say 'I had a secret mission because someone has been stealing technology and I acted like an ass because you guys were under suspicion'. The damage done to the trust between SG1 would have been greater, IMO, because how do you begin to work with someone again so closely where your lives are at stake who has thought even for a small moment that you couldn't be trusted?
                        Yes, I don't think for a moment that he suspected anyone on SG-1. Not only would it be completely OOC for Jack, but as you say it would also strike at the heart of one of the main attractions and tenets of the show- which is that the team sticks together through thick and thin. Which is why I agree that his relief at watching Teal'c turn and move on from the DHD had to do with being glad his cover wasn't blown, and why his watching Sam through the monocular was because he missed her. In addition, Hammond clearly stated the reason why the team was in the dark about the sting operation was because, "We wanted to assure your reaction to the Colonel's behaviour was as it should be." Which means that was Jack's thinking, as well.

                        I never thought about it before, but I agree with Cags that Hammond might even have suspected Makepeace, and put him on SG-1 in order to flush him out. First of all, Jack would very likely encounter Makepeace and his team in the process of tracking down the mole and Hammond would be counting on SG-1 to quickly figure out the situation and help Jack out. Another team might continue to take orders from Makepeace in the event of a confrontation, but Jack would definitely get the benefit of the doubt from SG-1. And second, if Hammond knows the rest of the team is rock solid it's much easier to figure out who did it if the unit was implicated in a theft. If the entire team is suspect that's much harder to do.


                        I'll sign up to do Nemesis if no-one else wants to do it.

                        I've really enjoyed everyone's summary posts and appreciate the time you guys put into them
                        Oh, that would be wonderful! You always have such nice insights. I'll check and see if I have received any artwork for the episode and forward it to you.
                        Last edited by VSS; December 16, 2009, 03:44 AM.

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                          Originally posted by VSS View Post
                          I never thought about it before, but I agree with Cags that Hammond might even have suspected Makepeace, and put him on SG-1 in order to flush him out. First of all, Jack would very likely encounter Makepeace and his team in the process of tracking down the mole and Hammond would be counting on SG-1 to quickly figure out the situation and help Jack out. Another team might continue to take orders from Makepeace in the event of a confrontation, but Jack would definitely get the benefit of the doubt from SG-1. And second, if Hammond knows the rest of the team is rock solid it's much easier to figure out who did it if the unit was implicated in a theft. If the entire team is suspect that's much harder to do.
                          You know, it wasn't until this discussion that I really thought about it, because watching it I'd always sort of assumed Makepeace was suspected all along, if only because of that little bit of theater performed in Hammond's office by Jack and Hammond over his going to Endora.. in front of Makepeace. That seemed an awfully large scene to act out unless Makepeace was specifically targeted. Plus, as you say, the way he was stuck on SG-1 seems to indicate it was a test of him. If they'd really been concerned about SG-1's loyalty, and not more specifically about Makepeace, I'd think they would have promoted Sam (testing her loyalty) and kept Makepeace where he was. Just mho, of course.

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                            Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                            Actually I never thought she was crying. She's just come out of the control room so unlikely she was. I did think Sam has a bit of a red nose there though, but just assumed AT had a cold of hayfever or something.
                            If she had a cold, wouldn't they'd cover it up? There's industrial strength makeup for that- (I own some and it even says 'industrial strength' on the back. LOL!) And, she didn't have it in the earlier scenes where have very good close-ups.
                            Originally posted by col aga View Post
                            Firstly, I agree with hedwig that I can't see anything in the scene in the corridor suggesting Sam's been crying. I agree she wouldn't let herself cry on base and she would never let Jack see her doing so, especially now when he hurt her.
                            She cries on base (and off), too, not infrequently. And she didn't know she'd be running into Jack in the hallway.

                            To me it's not necessarily shippy but she's just very much saddened by the fact that her idol has feet of clay. It's not that different from when Daniel died, or when Cassie was stuck in the silo. She thought she lost something very important to her- not Jack, but her image of Jack. And so we got full-on tears for Cassie, Janet, and Daniel, and for Jacob and Jack more than once. it doesn't surprise me that we'd see a little red nose over this, especially since she did just come out of the control room. I wouldn't expect to see tears.
                            Well I have to confess the discussion about it here has made me wonder how personal the comment was. I do think it's personal in that Jack was deliberately attempting to push her away because, depsite doing something as reprehensible as stealing, it's clear Sam is of the mindset to be loyal to him and he needs her not to be. I think the shippy spin on it, while inadvertently true, wasn't intentional by Jack.
                            I really do think your first impression is on track. I think it's safe to say that when he says "I haven't been acting like myself since I met you," he means "I haven't been acting like myself since I met you." Listening to the sentence, the emphasis is on the "you" part. Had it been on another part- perhaps the word "since" or "met" I could go with it being a more general phrase, but he didn't. It's personal- she's affected him.

                            Actually, to me it's one of the first little clues that makes me think he is caring about her more than he should. Unlike Daniel, she doesn't influence how he approaches his work- so however she's affecting him it's on a personal level.
                            Last edited by VSS; December 16, 2009, 09:03 AM.

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                              Originally posted by VSS View Post
                              Listening to the sentence, the emphasis is on the "you" part. Had it been on another part- perhaps the word "since" or "met" I could go with it being a more general phrase, but he didn't. It's personal- she's affected him.
                              Not only the emphasis in how he says it, but the way Jack looks when he says it. His entire focus - his body language - is on her. And I can't put my finger on it, but like so much of S/J, it's a subtlety in RDA's performance, an intensity in the way he looks at Sam, which tells me he's speaking to *her* specifically, about her, and not just a generalization about his circumstances.

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                                Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                                You know, it wasn't until this discussion that I really thought about it, because watching it I'd always sort of assumed Makepeace was suspected all along, if only because of that little bit of theater performed in Hammond's office by Jack and Hammond over his going to Endora.. in front of Makepeace. That seemed an awfully large scene to act out unless Makepeace was specifically targeted. Plus, as you say, the way he was stuck on SG-1 seems to indicate it was a test of him. If they'd really been concerned about SG-1's loyalty, and not more specifically about Makepeace, I'd think they would have promoted Sam (testing her loyalty) and kept Makepeace where he was. Just mho, of course.
                                In my personal canon of the show, I do have Hammond and Jack knowing it was Makepeace who was the mole and that they had suspected him for some time (given after Medrona they had to have realised that there was a leak because the gate travel was so well coordinated with their own). And for me, Makepeace being given SG1 to lead and the show about Jack leaving for Edora in front of Makepeace is very much part of that. I guess I assume Hammond and Jack has some way of communicating (possibly via the Asgard beaming them both to a ship in Earth's orbit) to debate how to play it once Jack knows he needs to get offworld. And they arrange to do it in front of Makepeace to solidify Jack's cover.
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