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    Originally posted by josiane View Post
    *builds campfire*
    *joins hands*
    *sings*
    You're so married sig came up randomly here. Which is funny, cause when I noticed they'd closed the appreciation thread I was going to respond to Pol's comment about Sam's "I've got nuthin'...yet" from Ripple Effect as being a Jackism and proof they were together. Because more than the simple verbage, the sense of hope and the confidence that, despite having not a clue at that minute, Sam maintains faith in herself and seems pretty confident she *will* - which is something, I think, she's learned from Jack. That's really channeling her inner Jack - that sense of confidence in herself and her ability.

    *happy sigh*

    I feel better now, having gotten that out. Silly Gemini.

    Comment


      They're about to start a brand new thread for us....

      Comment


        Darn, 100 days already? I'm incredibly busy and haven't had time yet to neither rewatch the episode nor read your comments but there's an old fic that sums up and explains my feelings and thoughts about "100 days", its consequences and implications for Sam and Jack *perfectly*. You probably all know it, but if not I urge you to go and read it - and you can treat it as a long-winded version of my eventual post.

        It's "Making Amends" series by Chezza:

        http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/chezzasco.../ma-series.htm

        PS. Have I missed "Foothold"?
        There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
        sigpic
        awesome sig by Josiane

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          Originally posted by col aga View Post
          Darn, 100 days already? I'm incredibly busy and haven't had time yet to neither rewatch the episode nor read your comments but there's an old fic that sums up and explains my feelings and thoughts about "100 days", its consequences and implications for Sam and Jack *perfectly*. You probably all know it, but if not I urge you to go and read it - and you can treat it as a long-winded version of my eventual post.

          It's "Making Amends" series by Chezza:

          http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/chezzasco.../ma-series.htm

          PS. Have I missed "Foothold"?
          The write-up on Foothold was never posted, you didn't miss it.
          But, if you'd like to post your thoughts on it, go right ahead.

          Comment


            Know what's funny about 100 Days? While shippers generally were up in arms about how Jack treated them.. er Sam (I actually made that typo )) at the end, I've always felt, for the actual characters, it probably wasn't a really big thing. But then again, I wasn't a 'shipper' when I first saw it. I think *we* were made to feel sorry for Sam, to feel that Jack had effectively failed to thank her appropriately for all she'd done, but for Jack, who didn't really *know* any of that - who hadn't been there and seen how hard she'd worked or her desperation as she'd done it - I think he was right to be concerned for the feelings of the woman he was effectively loving then leaving.

            In fact, I'd say this is a fairly strong Jack consistency of character. From his POV, getting him back was, really, just SG1 doing their job as his teammates. I'm sure at some point he thanked them, but his immediate concern wasn't thanking professionals for being professional. His concern was for the woman I think he knew was in love with him and was losing him - Laira. It's not his fault he didn't realize Sam felt the same way... He was, simply put, being a gentleman and trying to respect Laira's feelings. If he had simply blown her off and run back to his teammates with a broad display of gratitude instead, *that* I would have found reprehensible.

            And I think Daniel and Teal'c almost immediately got that - they don't seem upset by Jack at all and are, really, sort of defending him to Sam. And while Sam looks hurt, I think even she would realize quickly it was a relatively 'irrational' feeling and get over it rather quickly. She seems to consistently be able to do that, or at least to try to - compartmentalize and control her emotions. So I think she would have rather rapidly gotten over the whole thing.

            That said, I do think Sam was a bit wary of Jack still at the beginning of Shades of Grey, almost deciding if she really understood who Jack really was - but by the end of that episode I think she realizes he really is back and feels better again.

            All just MHO, of course.

            Comment


              My problem with that scene - and Jack's behaviour - lies not in the issue of Sam being in love with him or not, nor in it being Carter per se; not in the slightest. Had Carter never developed feelings for him - nay, had it been a completely different character working on getting him back even - I would still cringe, even if involuntarily.

              I suppose I see them four as more than just professionals doing their jobs at that point. All four of them -- they are so much more to each other. Realistically, he knew Laira for three months. Even if he was in love with her (which, I personally don't think it was quite that), for the sake of the argument... It's three months. And I don't see Jack as a character who gets attached very easily or very quickly. Granted, those were speacial circumstances he found himself in. And yet... I have to go to those three months. It's such a short, short amount of time, when you look at it.

              He needn't have had to know who worked hard to get him back, or how hard they worked -- in my mind, that's irrelevant to the issue. Similarly, the good-bye scene with Laira could have stayed exactly the same as it was, and I'd love it.
              If only there was a recognition that the people he's just been reunited with were the closest thing he has to a family.

              (Just in the opinion of someone who is a big, huge fan of the Team and an even bigger sucker for their moments.)
              you're so cute when you're slurring your speech but they're closing the bar and they want us to leave


              'What is it, Sebastian? I'm arranging matches.'


              "Religion is far more of a choice than homosexuality. And the protections that we have, for religion --we protect religion-- and talk about a lifestyle choice! That is absolutely a choice. Gay people don't choose to be gay. At what age did you choose not to be gay?" (Jon Stewart, The King of Common Sense)

              Comment


                Originally posted by slurredspeech View Post
                I suppose I see them four as more than just professionals doing their jobs at that point. All four of them -- they are so much more to each other. Realistically, he knew Laira for three months. Even if he was in love with her (which, I personally don't think it was quite that), for the sake of the argument... It's three months. And I don't see Jack as a character who gets attached very easily or very quickly. Granted, those were speacial circumstances he found himself in. And yet... I have to go to those three months. It's such a short, short amount of time, when you look at it.

                He needn't have had to know who worked hard to get him back, or how hard they worked -- in my mind, that's irrelevant to the issue. Similarly, the good-bye scene with Laire could have stayed exactly the same as it was, and I'd love it.

                If only there was a recognition that the people he's just been reunited with were the closest thing he has for a family.
                Oh, I totally see that. I don't think Jack's saying goodbye to Laira was for *him*. I think it was for *her*. It would have been cruel for him to have shown joy and elation over being reunited with the team before 'letting Laira down gently' through that goodbye.

                I do think, too, there was a reunion with the team later. I just don't think he did it in immediately in front of Laira. Which means we just didn't see it (which is true, sadly, for a lot of the fall outs of episodes, and is why so many episode tags exist ) What I meant by saying 'professionals being professionals' was simply that their emotional stake in him was far less than Laira's, who had been planning her entire life around him at that point.

                Or, iow, for Jack to have had a joyous reunion with this team in front of Laira would have been cruel and made me think less of Jack. The fact we didn't get to see that later, really, isn't Jack's fault, but a decision by the writers. IMHO.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                  Oh, I totally see that. I don't think Jack's saying goodbye to Laira was for *him*. I think it was for *her*. It would have been cruel for him to have shown joy and elation over being reunited with the team before 'letting Laira down gently' through that goodbye.

                  I do think, too, there was a reunion with the team later. I just don't think he did it in immediately in front of Laira. Which means we just didn't see it (which is true, sadly, for a lot of the fall outs of episodes, and is why so many episode tags exist ) What I meant by saying 'professionals being professionals' was simply that their emotional stake in him was far less than Laira's, who had been planning her entire life around him at that point.

                  Or, iow, for Jack to have had a joyous reunion with this team in front of Laira would have been cruel and made me think less of Jack. The fact we didn't get to see that later, really, isn't Jack's fault, but a decision by the writers. IMHO.
                  The other thing to note is that Laira didn't know if she was pregnant or not. I have to think that (as you said Jenn) his asking her to come with him was his way of letting her know that he was invested (if there was a child). I think he cared about her (I never got the feeling that he was in love, but rather for the sake of convenience, two people who were fond of each other decided to forge a comfortable, friendly, close partnership type thing). I think that's been said already.

                  Comment


                    I think I have to go with slurred speech on this one. I think Jack could easily have shown how happy he was to see his team ... right in front of Laira ... and it wouldn't have been terribly cruel. Yes, it would have hurt her. But she had to know how happy he was and she was already aware that she was going to lose him before that scene. After all, how could she not with the way he reacted to finding Teal'c? Plus, there was plenty of time during the digging out of the gate and getting it up and running again for them to have a few private moments and her to realize he wasn't staying. I don't have any problem with him having showed at least some enthusiasm to his team being there. And he could still have left them after a bit of a reunion scene and gone over to have his hug and good-bye with Laira. I do have a problem with him just walking away from Sam (or anybody else, for that matter) mid-sentence, just cutting her off as though she wasn't even there. I think I'd have been almost as annoyed if he'd done it to Daniel or anybody else. However, having said that, had it not been done the way it was, we wouldn't have had that last scene with that look on Sam's face.

                    (I think what I'm trying to say (partly) is I don't think it was okay to hurt one woman in order to NOT hurt another woman.)

                    And I don't think Laira loved Jack. As we all know, she'd only known him for three months, and while that is enough time for some people to fall in love, I don't think she was anymore in love with him than Sam was later down the road with Pete. Laira was "in love" with this fascinating new guy who was stranded on her planet and she wanted that guy to stay. I think she was more infatuated with him than she was anything else. He was different than anyone else in her village; intriguing; fascinating; a curiosity. Nobody else in her village measured up to him; so why wouldn't she want to have a relationship with him?

                    I've also been thinking about the scene where she's standing there with her hands on her stomach. And while it is implied that she and Jack had sex, it could as easily be her simply expressing her sadness at a lost opportunity and what might have been; it doesn't mean they did have sex. (Not sure that made any sense ... )
                    Last edited by hedwig; December 13, 2009, 07:34 PM.

                    Comment


                      I think the problem with the ending lies with trying to do that story in one episode because certainly the timeline on Teal'c climbing out, the gate getting completely unburied, teams from Earth coming through to stabilise it, the stranded Edorans returning home would have in reality happened over a couple of days at least if not a week or more given how deeply buried the gate was.

                      Which would have left plenty of time for Jack to speak to Laira about their future potentially before Daniel and Sam even got there; and for a nice team reunion when they did and really, just more of a complete ending.

                      However, the episode implies that all happened the same day and really then has to pack in Jack being with the team, him saying goodbye to Laira and Sam's reaction to him and Laira all in the one end scene.

                      In my head, I have Laira returning to the village and Jack working away at the gate site unburying the gate, having that happy reunion with his team as soon as Daniel and Sam step through the Stargate on Edora; there are hugs, there is joy, there is happiness to be going home and awe in how they've come through for him...

                      And then they get back to the village with the rest of the Edorans, and as Jack is standing there happily hearing Sam technobabble at him again without really listening, he looks up and there's Laira who's been waiting for him.

                      It's like a bucket of cold water all over his happiness because he believes his happiness is the ruination of her dream for them. Which is why he walks unthinkingly away from Sam (and I do believe he would have done the same if it had been Daniel babbling at him too) because he just suddenly realises that he's been ignoring the woman he effectively made a commitment to the night before and who he is now leaving.

                      It was rude of him to walk off even if it's understandable. His whole speech to Laira, for me, comes from that knowledge that by sleeping with her the night before he had made a commitment and he's not one to take his commitments lightly - hence the offer for her to come with him, the denial that he's not happy about leaving (whereas his previous actions give away that actually he is very happy). And I do think he believes that in that moment he needs to give Laira more attention than his friends and team-mates (because as close as SG1 are and as hard as they've worked to bring him home, sleeping with someone and commiting to have a baby with them kind of trumps that).

                      I don't necessarily see Daniel remonstrating with Sam when she wonders out loud in the aftermath of Jack just walking off from her if he's OK (which is an indication its unusual behaviour for Jack to be so rude), but more gently trying to point out the why because I think Daniel and Teal'c clue in immediately when Jack walks off that something has happened between Laira and Jack whereas I think Sam is very dense and clueless (too caught up in her own joy at seeing Jack again perhaps) until Daniel points it out to her - and then it hits her.

                      I do agree that it would have been nice to have seen the actual SG1 reunion piece of the ending - it's hinted at with how he is with Teal'c but it's not fully shown.
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                        Just a fic rec, a drabble I think is just beautiful in describing Sam's emotions during this episode: Deafening Silence.

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                          Shades of Grey

                          Favorite Scene: When Jack is watching Sam through the monocular.

                          Favorite Quote: (Okay, some of you probably predicted this one. )
                          Come to collect your vastly superior stuff? It'd be a lot more superior if it wasn't so easy to steal.




                          sig by the terrifically talented SeNedra!

                          I enjoy Shades of Grey, partly because it seems like it really could happen, and of course, that's why Jack was the best choice for the sting. Everything he says is more or less in character, and I would have loved to have seen this when it aired instead of already knowing what happens.

                          We saw the set-up for this in Pretense, with Jack making several comments about the reluctance of the Tollan to share their technology. It seems to me that his behavior then was for the benefit of the audience, not SG-1, just because it would have been around four months earlier given the events of Urgo and A Hundred Days.

                          It's hard to watch A Hundred Days and Shades of Grey back-to-back, just because of what Sam has to go through in regards to her feelings for Jack. They start out the episode sitting far apart, and it's all downhill from there. The looks she gives him and the sound of her voice in the briefing room are just heartbreaking, and very well done by AT. In the previous episode he hurts the woman who's starting to look at him as more than a friend. In this ep he lets her down professionally- she just can't believe this is the Colonel O'Neill she's looked up to for the past couple of years. At this point, it's hard to imagine which of these disappointments is worse. I imagine that she's got to be crushed.

                          And of course, she is. When Sam encounters Jack in the hallway, it's clear she's been crying- but as part of his ruse he can't cut her break even then. As I said in the beginning- she- and Teal'c- believe him because what he says is believable: "I haven't acted like myself since I met you. Now, I'm acting like myself." Just like with Daniel later on, and his complaints about Tollan, the essence of what he says is true- it's what he does with those thoughts, the conclusion that he draws and the ensuing behavior that comprise the deception. But what an extraordinary thing for a CO to tell an subordinate, right there in the hallway. Not what anyone would expect, but completely believable because it's apparent that something unusual has developed in his feelings for a certain Sam Carter.

                          But it's not necessary to make it personal with Sam to get her to buy into his act, because she clearly already does. And I have to wonder why he had to go over the top like that (basically in public, which is even more harsh than what he did to Daniel). I think it's because he's hurt, too. Which is an odd thing to say but I can't think of another reason for him to push it that far. He's trying to do his job, really running a covert ops on his own team and that can't feel good- and then he encounters Sam in the hallway, sees what he's done to her and I think it makes him feel guilty, which is not the way Jack is used to feeling when he's doing what needs to be done. I think on some level, his own reaction upon seeing her really disturbs him, because he's not supposed to feel that way. And so he tells her what is, essentially, true. He really hasn't been himself since he met her- and that little fact bothers him quite a bit.

                          Also, I'm sure someone will point out the significance of the opera, IL Pagliacci- IIRC it's about a man who has to pretend he's someone he isn't. Or you could just take it more superficially because the English translation is "The Clown" and it's playing when Maybourne walks up. And I would be remiss if I didn't point out how totally hot Jack looks the entire time he's at his house- it's almost enough to make me forgive him. Almost.

                          The rest of the ep I'm not so sympathetic with Jack and even though he does what he has to do, and even though he hates doing it, he's still a grade A ass about the whole thing. Even when he goes through the gate to Edora (with Sam standing right there! Gah.) there's not the slightest hint that Laira even crosses his mind. Perhaps that's to get across the notion that his relationship with her was just a matter of convenience, but not even a glance down the road? That's heartless. I don't care if he is on a mission, there's no one around there that he has to fool at that particular time and i would have expected him to show some feeling. But nope.

                          He almost redeems himself (to me, anyway) when he's watching Sam come down the steps. She's nowhere near that little cloaking device, and you know he's just watching her because he misses her. But still. After two eps in a row there's no sense that he appreciates anything she's been through or anything that she's done for him. In the end, all he does is a little joking around with Daniel and I can't decide if it's because it all hits him too close to home to really be serious about or if he really just chalks it up to being another day at work. That's the thing about Jack. He's gotten so good at repressing his emotions it leaves one wondering if he feels anything at all. And of course, this isn't the last time that happens.

                          Implications for Sam and Jack:
                          Jack can be awfully cold when he has to be. I remember saying a similar thing when Kawalsky died, so that much about him hasn't changed. And yet, it's becoming apparent that he's developing feelings for Sam that he may not even recognize, or that he refuses to recognize. Despite all of that, and his efforts to distance himself from her and the rest of the team, she still cares about him. In some ways, this episode is like a little microcosm of their relationship, not only shades of grey but shades of things to come.
                          Last edited by VSS; December 14, 2009, 03:29 PM.

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                            Originally posted by VSS View Post
                            Shades of Grey

                            And of course, she is. When Sam encounters Jack in the hallway, it's clear she's been crying- but as part of his ruse he can't cut her break even then. As I said in the beginning- she- and Teal'c- believe him because what he says is believable: "I haven't acted like myself since I met you. Now, I'm acting like myself." Just like with Daniel later on, and his complaints about Tollan, the essence of what he says is true- it's what he does with those thoughts, the conclusion that he draws and the ensuing behavior that comprise the deception. But what an extraordinary thing for a CO to tell an subordinate, right there in the hallway. Not what anyone would expect, but completely believable because it's apparent that something unusual has developed in his feelings for a certain Sam Carter.
                            If you think about it, that bolded bit is incredibly romantic. He is, effectively, admitting the fact she makes him a better person. And I do love the fact it's clear Sam's been crying in that scene. Or at least, wants to cry.

                            I also love the scene with Daniel at Jack's house. The double meaning in that conversation really, is just IMHO brilliant:
                            Spoiler:
                            O'NEILL
                            Being sweet and nice isn't going to stop three or four Goa'uld motherships if they decide to come back again. I'd rather be a thief and alive than honest and dead. It's a cliché, but there it is.
                            DANIEL
                            If you really believe that, I guess, ah, I guess I never really knew you at all.
                            O'NEILL
                            Come on. You're a bright guy. You had to sense some of this.
                            [Daniel doesn't answer.]
                            O'NEILL
                            (cont'd)
                            Then no. I guess you couldn't relate to me any more than I could to you.
                            DANIEL
                            So this whole, ah, this whole friendship thing we've been working on in the last few years is…
                            O'NEILL
                            Apparently not much of a foundation there, huh?
                            Because I think Jack is trying to hint when he says, "Come on. You're a bright guy." Because Daniel's last statement is absolutely correct, and it's essentially Daniel's lack of faith in Jack and in their relationship which causes him to doubt. Because, of course, Daniel *does* by now know Jack rather well, and he's right... Jack really wouldn't do that. And he is smart and he didn't sense it.. because it's not true.

                            Like you said, VSS, he tells him, like he told Sam, the complete truth. He just twisted it to make it sound like he was betraying them. Which is very much what I believe Jack does later in S7 and S8 when he's deflecting Sam's advances (as in Lost City and Affinity) Telling her the truth, but in a way which leads her to assume a falsehood.

                            Further proof Jack's a lot smarter than most people give him credit for.

                            I don't, though, have issue with the way Sam and Jack interact at the end, or that Daniel gets preferential conversation over Sam. The two of them - Sam and Jack - exchange very nice glances and smiles. But I do tend to think at this point Jack wasn't really consciously aware either of Sam's feelings or, really, that his own were beyond friendship so I can't blame him for not feeling more or reacting more. Plus, there's something in Jack's attitude and manners at the end that speaks of great discomfort, and I do think he's hiding a lot of the awkwardness of the situation behind humor. Which is very, very Jack.

                            Or, in other words, I like this episode cause it's angsty And too early in the series and their emotions for Jack to realize he's supposed to be fluffy to make up for it.

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                              Originally posted by VSS View Post
                              Shades of Grey

                              <snip>
                              I enjoy Shades of Grey, partly because it seems like it really could happen, and of course, that's why Jack was the best choice for the sting. Everything he says is more or less in character, and I would have loved to have seen this when it aired instead of already knowing what happens.

                              <snip>
                              I remember the first time I saw it when it aired originally in the UK. It was incredibly shocking to see that first scene where he steals from the Tollans. Open-mouthed stunned rabbit look is probably the best description. And I think my reaction mirrored the rest of SG1 as in - what's going on? This isn't like Jack.

                              But the episode is perfectly positioned following after A Hundred Days because there's enough believability in the premise that having returned home after a long absence where he wasn't having to face fighting an intractable war, he's so miserable and disillusioned in returning to his previous existence that he would turn to the dark side and effectively self-destruct.

                              Seeing the possibility of that outcome though is very shocking, and like SG1, the audience for the first part is not let in on the secret - we're led to believe he's as much of an ass as he's pretending to be. The scenes with Sam and with Daniel are both heart-breaking.

                              I have to admit that when Maybourne turns up, I worked it out that he was on some kind of mission but even so the going through the gate and waiting for him to complete his mission is tense and I did not see the final twist with Makepeace coming at all.

                              I do think again that the episode would have benefitted from being a two-parter because the ending for me is too rushed. It's too 'we've got to get this tied up before the end credits roll'. There had to have been a lot of fallout from this episode and while some of that does get touched upon (the straw scene gives away that they're not quite ready to forgive him), and in the remaining episodes (there is a subtle cooling between the others and Jack until Crystal Skull), it isn't addressed onscreen which I think is a shame.

                              Jack

                              I do think Shades of Grey shows just how smart Jack is and how ruthless he could be when he needed to be.

                              It's sometimes easy to forget that Jack was used to operating very effectively as a shark and not a dolphin - and here he's a shark.

                              I do think Jack had to be severe with the team because if he hadn't pushed them away so hard, the risk was that they would have interfered (even in a well-meaning way) and endangered the sting. And I do think a lot of his humour at the end and making light of events is his way of trying to cover-up his own worry that he's pushed them away too hard.

                              Sam

                              I think Sam gets taken on a huge rollercoaster in the episode. She can't believe what he's done and in the briefing you can just see that she's desperately pulled between her duty and her loyalty to and her caring of him (and effectively Jack saves her and the rest of the team by upfront admitting to his crime and taking full responsibility so they're not made accomplices to it).

                              And later, in the corridor, she's still trying desperately to *understand* what's going on, and more than anything she's worried about him. And she's crushed when to her perception, he effectively lashes out at her on a very personal basis - and it has to hurt her enormously given (in my head) the realisation of her own feelings for him.

                              I give her huge credit though for standing in the gate room to wave him off to Edora. That takes courage; to watch the man you've just realised you're in love with, who you worked so hard to bring home, effectively reject that rescue, reject you and go back to another planet to spend his days with another woman. It suggests to me that Sam felt a lot of responsibility for what she probably perceived as a breakdown (from the Edora incident and returning home), a lot of guilt (she was the one who went all out to get him home) and a want for him to simply be happy.

                              I do think Sam as soon as she realises that it was a mission, intellectually understands and accepts that Jack was performing a mission. Indeed, I think she'd jump on the idea that all his actions and behaviour had been part of the mission and write off everything under that heading. I can't see Sam being mad in the aftermath (whereas I can see Daniel still be latently angry for a long while towards Jack). However, I think she'd still be inwardly hurt whether she admitted it or not, realised it consciously or not (and that plays into her coolness in subsequent episodes).

                              Sam/Jack

                              There are some lovely beats. The scene in the corridor is great because he does speak the absolute truth - that he hasn't been himself since he met her, that he had been trying to be a better person and she had a part in wanting that - only he says it in such a way to make her think he thinks its a bad thing when actually the opposite is true. Moreover, though I do think it hints at Jack's own insecurities about whether he is good enough for her.

                              He does make it personal and I agree there's some guilt over what he's having to do in terms of his team, some personal unhappiness over his actions that kind of prompts him to go there...but maybe there's also a hint that he's begun to realise in returning from Edora that she may have personal feelings for him, and so he uses the personal rather than the professional to push her away.

                              The bit where he's spying on her through the monocle is also fab. She's the first one he picks out and he follows her for quite a while.
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                                I agree with all of what you've said so I'm not going to repeat it!

                                the only other thing is I remember the first time I watched this ep I wondered (possibly due to Sam-fan tendencies) if Sam was in on it when they introduce Makepeace, Daniel is really pushing for Sam to lead SG1 (although now probably due to Daniel not wanting to disrupt his family again/any more) and Sam doesn't mind and is willing to have a new CO. Now I think it was probably just Sam being a good soldier so nevermind!
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