Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[EvenstarSRV]

I knew the soulmate comment would be the most controversial.

I do believe in the idea of soulmates as in someone who there is a soul-deep/spiritual connection with, where there is that sense of destiny/fate about your coming together in this life-time, who you may have known and loved in previous life-times, may know and love in the next.

I don't believe they necessarily turn out to be the person you fall romantically in love with. I think they can be a best friend, a family member, a teacher/mentor.

I actually think it's very rare that a soulmate turns out to be someone you fall romantically in love with. Moreover, I certainly think its entirely possibly to have a fulfilling, romantic relationship with someone who isn't a soulmate and that there are many Ms/Mr Rights out there for each of us in that regard (and also being a single girl myself, that being single is a valid choice to make).

But when someone does fall romantically in love with their soulmate, I admit, I think there is that extra sense of magic; I confess I'm sappy enough to believe in the fairy-tale - and I've been lucky enough to see in real life with an aunt and uncle.

And one of the reasons why I personally like the Sam/Jack story so much is because for me it's a modern day fairy-tale of soulmates.

Not everyone is going to agree with me (including shippers) but that's OK.

Nice explanation re soul mates. I still don't quite believe it, but I enjoyed your lovely thoughts on it.

In terms of Narim/romantic soulmate: Narim may well have believed that in Enigma given the 'angel' comparison he makes. He may well have thought that up to the moment when Sam in Pretense gives him the 'It's not you, it's me' speech. But as soon as she did, he seems as you say to have accepted that his feelings were unreciprocated.

Personally, I kind of feel that if the other person doesn't return your feelings and also feel they are your soulmate too, then it rather automatically negates the idea that they are your soulmate - because to continue to think they are but they themselves just don't know it yet, rather takes the whole thing back into creepy stalker/obsessiveness for me.

And actually I don't think Narim did continue to think she was his soulmate because as you say he had stopped pursuing her and had accepted that all she was going to be was a friend. Which again takes me back to my original point that, while it was not necessarily wrong for Narim not to have moved on, it would have been nice to have seen him having moved on rather than continuing to pine.

Yeah, I don't quite believe Narim thought Sam was his soulmate either, I was just kinda putting the idea out there.

But I guess what I personally don't agree with at all is classifying his behavior in Between Two Fires as stalkerish. Obsessive I can see to an extent, but stalker has the negative connotation of pursuing a person against their will to me, and Narim never pursues Sam after she turns him down in Pretense.

Hmmm, in terms of idealization of a person, I'll agree -- it's definitely easier the less you know them, and consequently, the less you see them. But that's just infatuation, not love. And infatuation - or however we choose to call it - is by its nature not long-lasting. Especially when it's been made known to a person the other doesn't feel the same way. Gah, I don't know, I suppose I just can't see a grown-up man nursing these unreciprocated feelings for so long, without any fodder as benign as a smile, let alone any significant* history between them, and it being 'standard' or 'healthy'.

I think infatuation is a good word for Narim's feelings for Sam, it's not love as most of us would define it because like you said, he hardly knows her.

And I agree that it's not really healthy for Narim to have nursed this infatuation, esp after Sam turned him down, but considering how emotionally-stunted Tollan society seems to be in general, I guess I don't hold it against him. It's an understandable flaw in his character to me, given his upbringing.

Ok, moving on from Narim now...

Urgo! I just adore this episode. The comedic timing of everyone is wonderful, especially RDA, AT and Dom Deluise, and I love that even with the off-the-wall stuff, they have the great conversation with Sam and Daniel about what constitutes life.

And it is interesting that the rather angsty 100 Days follows this light-hearted episode. I've seen most of the series entirely out of order, so the potential significance of the episode order here never occurred to me before. But I can't really agree that this is that last time we see Jack and Sam show friendly affection for each other. I think we see it various times like in Small Victories, WoO, 48 Hours, etc.

[JenniferJF]

I'd never given it much thought before that the next episode is 100 Days - and with that in mind it's interesting that such a light-hearted episode leads into such angst. I wonder if this episode is sort of like the clincher - the last moment before everything stop being "innocent" so to speak - because as you pointed out, this seems to be the last time they're flirty and comfortable (until Threads - that fishing scene - Jack was comfortable. Relaxed even).

That's exactly it. As I've said elsewhere, while 100 Days is I believe the episode in which Sam realizes she's fallen in love with Jack O'Neill, I think Urgo is the episode in which she finally and completely *falls*. Here we see Sam and Jack just being *Sam and Jack*, without all the baggage and fears and barriers that come later.

[JenniferJF]

But I can't really agree that this is that last time we see Jack and Sam show friendly affection for each other. I think we see it various times like in Small Victories, WoO, 48 Hours, etc.

I think though, in all those other instances (except for WoO which, because Jack knows it's never going to be remembered, he can be more free), there's a certain guardedness and underlying wariness in their interactions. A line they won't cross. I think Urgo is the last time they interact without worrying about that line.

[EvenstarSRV]

I think though, in all those other instances (except for WoO which, because Jack knows it's never going to be remembered, he can be more free), there's a certain guardedness and underlying wariness in their interactions. A line they won't cross. I think Urgo is the last time they interact without worrying about that line.

I'd agree on a wariness on the occasions when things verged towards their more romantic feelings. But I mean just the friendly moments like the first part of the fishing conversation in Small Victories, Jack's concern in Fail Safe when Sam gets shocked, Jack offering to get Sam coffee in 48 hours, joking about the phasers in Redemption or naming the ship in Prometheus, etc. No guardedness there for me.

[es!]

And just because I can't stress it enough. This is about the last time we ever see completely comfortable and unconcious flirty friendshippy affection between them. Once they ate from the tree of knowledge, everything that comes afterwards - no matter how flirty, fun or friendly - is tinged with the fact they know it goes much much, much deeper... as deep as their souls... (Insert ominious doom laden music.... )

Thank you for this wonderful analysis!

[Rachel500]

Urgo...

I have to admit I was someone who wasn't very fond of this on first viewing. Perhaps because I found Urgo more annoying than funny. And I wouldn't say it's one that I ever wanted to rewatch

Still, in rewatching a couple of years back, I surprised myself with how much I enjoyed it. It is funny (love the scene with Hammond and Fraiser, 'are we sure they're absolutely...' 'sane, sir?').

I also agree there's just a nice closeness to Sam and Jack in Urgo. Some really lovely non-verbal beats. I think it's the Maui/bikinis bit where she shoots him this, 'yep, typical guy' and he gives her this really 'I was soo not thinking about women in bikini apology' look which is just so couple-y and really more the beat you would expect to see between a man and woman dating/together then a CO/team-member.

[JenniferJF]

I'd agree on a wariness on the occasions when things verged towards their more romantic feelings. But I mean just the friendly moments like the first part of the fishing conversation in Small Victories, Jack's concern in Fail Safe when Sam gets shocked, Jack offering to get Sam coffee in 48 hours, joking about the phasers in Redemption or naming the ship in Prometheus, etc. No guardedness there for me.

Yeah, I'd agree. But they're all fairly brief moments, and given the fact I think by then they're both in love, I still have to figure they're having to guard themselves from showing too much or feeling too much. So maybe it's my interpretation - that they do love each other and would have gone further if they could have. The scene I love for this is the beginning of Continuum when they pretty much let themselves go and it's almost a joking aside of two equals.

[leiasky]

While I'm a shipper, I have to say I really enjoy reading Evenstar's well thought out and non-confrontational opinions from a non-shipper point of view. It's definitely a different view, and one I don't usually agree with, but I can see the relevant points being made on both sides and I really love the discussions!

Urgo - I really didn't like it on first viewing but on subsequent ones I've enjoyed it more. There are great beats between Jack and Sam that are either great actor chemistry, planned/blocked reaction shots or just amazingly directed. They get the Sam and Jack tension/comfort point across without the need for dialogue.

[JenniferJF]

They get the Sam and Jack tension/comfort point across without the need for dialogue.

Which is what's so amazing about their relationship in general. It's constantly being shown rather than told... Just so well done.

/fangurl moment

[Zoser]

Hee, you're so right about the alien men falling for Sam thing. It made me so happy when we got some aliens like Warrick or some humans like Colson who didn't do that.

I thought I detected a note of jealousy in O'Neill's tone in Covenant
"O'NEILL: Shut it off. (Sam turns the T.V. off.) We know who he is -- some of us better than others."
Perhaps it is a previous working relationship with Sam and Colson that was closer than Jack liked or maybe I'm projecting.

[VSS]

I thought I detected a note of jealousy in O'Neill's tone in Covenant
"O'NEILL: Shut it off. (Sam turns the T.V. off.) We know who he is -- some of us better than others."
Perhaps it is a previous working relationship with Sam and Colson that was closer than Jack liked or maybe I'm projecting.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1_808_0084.jpg

If you watch the cut scenes, there's more of that vibe from Jack. (One in particular where he basically asks her to use her past relationship with Alex to pull him in and then betray him- it was really a OOC moment for Jack and I'm glad it was cut). And I really couldn't figure that out because there's no possible way that Sam would do anything that would jeopardize the SG program or put the country at risk, nor would Jack ever think that she would. Which only leaves a personal dislike for Sam and Alex's association and I think that it is simple jealousy, not unlike the way he treated Joe Faxon in the gateroom before their ill-fated mission together.

Faxon and COlson are, in many ways, quite alike and quite different from Jack. And just the kind of men that a smart young woman from a good family would find attractive- or so Jack thinks. They're the kind of men most women would love to bring home to meet the parents.

[leiasky]

I thought I detected a note of jealousy in O'Neill's tone in Covenant
"O'NEILL: Shut it off. (Sam turns the T.V. off.) We know who he is -- some of us better than others."
Perhaps it is a previous working relationship with Sam and Colson that was closer than Jack liked or maybe I'm projecting.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1_808_0084.jpg

Yeah, I kinda detected a note of jealousy in his tone as well. Though, it could possibly be interpreted as annoyed.

Which is what's so amazing about their relationship in general. It's constantly being shown rather than told... Just so well done.

/fangurl moment

They do subtext so well. I always wonder if it was in the script, the table read, instructed by the director, actor interpretation or - likely a combination of all the elements.

[hedwig]

If you watch the cut scenes, there's more of that vibe from Jack. (One in particular where he basically asks her to use her past relationship with Alex to pull him in and then betray him- it was really a OOC moment for Jack and I'm glad it was cut). And I really couldn't figure that out because there's no possible way that Sam would do anything that would jeopardize the SG program or put the country at risk, nor would Jack ever think that she would. Which only leaves a personal dislike for Sam and Alex's association and I think that it is simple jealousy, not unlike the way he treated Joe Faxon in the gateroom before their ill-fated mission together.

Faxon and COlson are, in many ways, quite alike and quite different from Jack. And just the kind of men that a smart young woman from a good family would find attractive- or so Jack thinks. They're the kind of men most women would love to bring home to meet the parents.

I caught that tone from Jack too - annoyed? jealous? - and could never figure out why. All Sam said was that she and Alec worked together (briefly?) at some point in the past.

Where does a person find these cut scenes?

[JenniferJF]

They do subtext so well. I always wonder if it was in the script, the table read, instructed by the director, actor interpretation or - likely a combination of all the elements.

Which is what makes doing my subtextual gifs so much fun. I'm making it up... but only sort of . Like this one:



It's sort of a joke.. but it's also sort of what was actually going on.

[VSS]

I caught that tone from Jack too - annoyed? jealous? - and could never figure out why. All Sam said was that she and Alec worked together (briefly?) at some point in the past.

Where does a person find these cut scenes?

I have no idea. I saw it a long time ago, probably on the MGM site.
What Jack proposed was not only underhanded (keep in mind Alec wasn't the enemy, just a curious American citizen) but would have hurt Sam, too. On both counts it was pretty un-Jack-like.