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    Originally posted by josiane View Post
    That was the moment that really creeped me out too - somehow it made it seem like Sam was being put in a servile position that just has all sorts of icky connotations
    I agree. It also made me think of Sara (the computer voice in Sheriff Carter's home in Eureka), who seems to serve as maid/housekeeper/cook/whatever-else-anyone-wants-it-tobe.

    Comment


      Originally posted by slurredspeech View Post
      Very true and I don't disagree that he never intended her to hear it. I didn't see it as him trying to push her into, well anything, there either.

      Just the fact that him having the recording really wasn't meant to be interpreted by us as him having friends-and-nothing-more feelings (because we all know that no male alien can under no circumstances have merely friendly feelings for our Carter; oh TPTB *shakes head amusedly*) which paints a rather peculiar picture of Narim. I mean, I know it's Carter and she's played by AT who -- GUH, but Narim, buddy; no pretty, soft-spoken women on Tollana? The whole pining for years thing (secretly or not so much) just makes him seem a bit... I dunno, peculiar.

      And I'm sure it being a recording (and not a photo) didn't help my impression much.



      Being a shipper myself, I never saw either of them as any kind of - threat? Competition? Nor do I think they were overtly pushing Sam into anything she didn't want. Okay, so Marty may have been a bit overwhelming in his beginnings, but then that was a pretty unique situation there. (And, as a shipper, I always like to make it clear that my occasional dislike of them and their actions has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I'd have liked seeing Jack give Sam his yoyo, for better or for worse).

      The thing is - and I think it was you who said it earlier? - we didn't see as much of those two guys. So, while I agree that, say, Martouf of JM/TDYK and Martouf of D&C are two different animals with different approach to Sam, we don't get to see that transition until it's already happened, and have to fill in the holes for ourselves as to explain the change. Like, as I was watching D&C for the first time *reminiscents fondly* I remember thinking 'Ah! Okay, so he's settled for friends only now'. Basically, I was going into the episode with the impression of Marty from the episode he was previously in, much like with Narim and Pretense.

      Does that make any bit of sense?
      Definitely makes sense and I agree, we as the audience are left to fill in the blanks since their contact is so spread out and sporadic. But I think the show did a pretty good job of showing the change in their intentions towards Sam over the episodes Martouf and Narim were on.

      Hee, you're so right about the alien men falling for Sam thing. It made me so happy when we got some aliens like Warrick or some humans like Colson who didn't do that.

      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
      I would agree that Narim didn't *pursue* Sam beyond her 'it's not you, it's me' speech in Pretense and he had no expectation that she would hear the recording but the recording does seem to indicate to me as slurredspeech said that he was pining for her on some level. I think even if you use the cultural reference of a photo, the fact that it was so prominently displayed and part of his life on a day to day basis, that he hadn't found someone else's voice to replace hers, does make it seem like he's still harbouring feelings for her even if he's accepted she doesn't feel the same way.

      In Pretense, I can appreciate that Narim still harbours a 'what if?' about Sam; has maybe even idolised her in absentia given the part she played in saving him and is hopeful that in renewing their acquaintance, they might continue to explore the very embryonic relationship they had in Enigma. But by Between Two Fires, I would have preferred for them to have shown him moving on, having a relationship with someone else.

      Mini-ficlet...

      Spoiler:


      Sam felt a little awkward as Narim ushered her and Teal'c over the threshold of his home. 'You live alone?'

      Narim looked a little embarrassed; a red flush streaking each cheekbone. 'Actually no. My partner Callia is away on business in our Southern continent right now.'

      Sam smiled genuinely pleased at the news Narim had someone in his life. 'Callia, huh?'

      'Yes. Omarc introduced us.' Narim gestured for them to enter the living area and showed Sam the computer console. A warm female voice drifted out to question them.

      Sam's lips curved upward again. 'Callia?' She guessed.

      Narim nodded happily.




      Martouf, on the other hand...I do think Martouf by D&C is aware that Sam doesn't feel the same way about him as Jolinar felt. But I do think by then he (or rather Lantash IMO given it is Lantash in Last Stand who tells her he loved her) has fallen for Sam as herself (as he says he's come to care about her for her and Lantash later wishes Sam to know he loved her). And while I don't think Martouf/Lantash in D&C had any expectation of anything happening with Sam right at that moment or any time soon, I think he still had hope of 'one day' that Sam might come to feel the same way about him.

      So I don't see Martouf actively pursuing her but I do see him still being actively interested whereas I actually can concede that Narim, despite his pining/harbouring feelings vibe, actually does seem to have realised he has no hope of it being more than friendship.
      Nice ficlet!

      I guess my main response is that I don't see it being such an issue that Narim continues to pine for/harbor feelings for Sam. For his perhaps personal/emotional well-being I think it would have been better for him to move-on, but can you so easily govern and direct your feelings like that? Narim fell hard for Sam, and it's been maybe 2 years since she essentially turned him down as a romantic partner, so maybe it's just taken him a while to get over her and become interested in someone else.

      I may be wading into dangerous waters here, and believe me I mean no offense to anyone, but it seems to me that continuing to harbor feelings/not moving on is something both Jack and Sam were guilty of at various times over the years. So why is it ok or understandable for them to do that in relation to each other, but not ok for Narim to do it in relation to Sam?

      Originally posted by Zoser View Post
      It was sweet for Narim and the Tollan culture but creepy for us Tauri.
      You're absolutely right, I just chalk it up to cultural misunderstandings. I was trying to see it from his perspective, that what may look like him pushing his feeling onto Sam to us is really just his culture's way of expressing feelings. Rather like what Freya does with Jack in D&C. What comes across as really pushy to us may just be how her culture expresses feelings. The intentions or correctness of an act is usually one of first things to get lost in translation.

      sigpic

      Comment


        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
        I guess my main response is that I don't see it being such an issue that Narim continues to pine for/harbor feelings for Sam. For his perhaps personal/emotional well-being I think it would have been better for him to move-on, but can you so easily govern and direct your feelings like that? Narim fell hard for Sam, and it's been maybe 2 years since she essentially turned him down as a romantic partner, so maybe it's just taken him a while to get over her and become interested in someone else.

        I may be wading into dangerous waters here, and believe me I mean no offense to anyone, but it seems to me that continuing to harbor feelings/not moving on is something both Jack and Sam were guilty of at various times over the years. So why is it ok or understandable for them to do that in relation to each other, but not ok for Narim to do it in relation to Sam?
        No offence taken.

        Let me see if I can organise my thoughts into some kind of order...

        Narim knows his feelings are unreciprocated. He's not going to get anywhere with Sam. There is no hope. It's not that it's not OK (although the voice recording is slightly creepy because I'm still not convinced it's the cultural equivalent of a photo), but that it would be better for him to have moved on.

        As for Sam and Jack. Initially, they know their feelings are mutual. Consciously, they can put the reasons down not being together as it's just that they're serving on the same team and that there are regulations; there is the possibility of one day.

        And then they take a step back in my personal canon after Entity. And I do actually think both make efforts to move on from their feelings in S5 (I tend to think Jack dated off-screen, Sam had a couple of offers onscreen - Orlin/Joe).

        I think by S6 they'd both slipped back to loving each other but believing the other had moved on.

        By S7, that does get Sam to the point in Grace where she's seriously questioning how Jack feels about her and if she should move on (she even says in her hallucination she would move (although not easily) if she knew for certain) - which she attempts to do with Pete.

        However, her feelings for Jack won't go away and there remains a nagging uncertainty about how he feels.

        Jack, meanwhile, in believing Sam has moved on with Pete, certainly by Reckoning is attempting to move on himself with Kerry.

        So, for me, as a shipper it comes down to two things (a) that Sam and Jack are truly soul-mates and can't just move on and (b) despite that because they know they should be moving on, they at least try at various times.

        Now perhaps Narim tried to move on from Sam offscreen and we never saw it but the whole having Sam's voice in his house kind of indicates that he hasn't tried very hard if at all - and that's my problem with it.
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        My Stargate Fanfiction. My LiveJournal.

        Comment


          Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
          I may be wading into dangerous waters here, and believe me I mean no offense to anyone, but it seems to me that continuing to harbor feelings/not moving on is something both Jack and Sam were guilty of at various times over the years. So why is it ok or understandable for them to do that in relation to each other, but not ok for Narim to do it in relation to Sam?
          HERESY!

          I'm not as coherent tonight as Rachel plus I don't believe in soul mates or One True Person for everyone but the subtle difference would be, with them two the feelings were reciprocated (which they knew at some point in the series); the circumstances were the factor keeping them apart. Not one of them saying 'Thanks, but no thanks' and the other hanging on, so to speak.
          The other thing... Well, it's much harder to move on when you have the object of your affection doing the Pretty and Loveable and Heroic and Awe-Worthy right under your nose on daily basis; with Jack and Sam being who they are as characters unto themselves, it's hard not to fall in love with either a little bit every day.
          But when you hardly see a woman you have a crush on - a woman you barely know, to be honest - the worshiping gets sort of... and I have to go back to peculiar.

          All that said, I do have to stress one point though. If Jack opened his fridge to get a beer, and Sam's voice sing-songed 'I hope it's just as cool as you, dear', I'd... Well, I wouldn't ship them, for starters.
          Also? Probably have a tad of an aneurism.
          you're so cute when you're slurring your speech but they're closing the bar and they want us to leave


          'What is it, Sebastian? I'm arranging matches.'


          "Religion is far more of a choice than homosexuality. And the protections that we have, for religion --we protect religion-- and talk about a lifestyle choice! That is absolutely a choice. Gay people don't choose to be gay. At what age did you choose not to be gay?" (Jon Stewart, The King of Common Sense)

          Comment


            Originally posted by slurredspeech View Post
            HERESY!

            <snip>The other thing... Well, it's much harder to move on when you have the object of your affection doing the Pretty and Loveable and Heroic and Awe-Worthy right under your nose on daily basis; with Jack and Sam being who they are as characters unto themselves, it's hard not to fall in love with either a little bit every day.

            But when you hardly see a woman you have a crush on - a woman you barely know, to be honest - the worshiping gets sort of... and I have to go back to peculiar.

            All that said, I do have to stress one point though. If Jack opened his fridge to get a beer, and Sam's voice sing-songed 'I hope it's just as cool as you, dear', I'd... Well, I wouldn't ship them, for starters.
            Also? Probably have a tad of an aneurism.
            Yes. This. Which is more what I wanted to say but couldn't quite articulate.

            And yes, if Jack had at any point programmed anything with Sam's voice, that would have been worrying...
            sigpic
            Women of the Gate LJ Community.
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            Comment


              Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
              And yes, if Jack had at any point programmed anything with Sam's voice, that would have been worrying...
              That would make a pretty awesome crack!fic now, though. Things in Jack's DC apartment randomly sound like Sam... and he keeps giving her the lecture on why she shouldn't be doing that to him... it's not fair.

              See, 5 years ago, creepy. Now... funny.

              Comment


                Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                That would make a pretty awesome crack!fic now, though. Things in Jack's DC apartment randomly sound like Sam... and he keeps giving her the lecture on why she shouldn't be doing that to him... it's not fair.

                See, 5 years ago, creepy. Now... funny.
                You HAD to suggest a crack!fic idea. :: wanders off to think ::

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                  No offence taken.

                  Let me see if I can organise my thoughts into some kind of order...

                  Narim knows his feelings are unreciprocated. He's not going to get anywhere with Sam. There is no hope. It's not that it's not OK (although the voice recording is slightly creepy because I'm still not convinced it's the cultural equivalent of a photo), but that it would be better for him to have moved on.

                  As for Sam and Jack. Initially, they know their feelings are mutual. Consciously, they can put the reasons down not being together as it's just that they're serving on the same team and that there are regulations; there is the possibility of one day.

                  And then they take a step back in my personal canon after Entity. And I do actually think both make efforts to move on from their feelings in S5 (I tend to think Jack dated off-screen, Sam had a couple of offers onscreen - Orlin/Joe).

                  I think by S6 they'd both slipped back to loving each other but believing the other had moved on.

                  By S7, that does get Sam to the point in Grace where she's seriously questioning how Jack feels about her and if she should move on (she even says in her hallucination she would move (although not easily) if she knew for certain) - which she attempts to do with Pete.

                  However, her feelings for Jack won't go away and there remains a nagging uncertainty about how he feels.

                  Jack, meanwhile, in believing Sam has moved on with Pete, certainly by Reckoning is attempting to move on himself with Kerry.

                  So, for me, as a shipper it comes down to two things (a) that Sam and Jack are truly soul-mates and can't just move on and (b) despite that because they know they should be moving on, they at least try at various times.

                  Now perhaps Narim tried to move on from Sam offscreen and we never saw it but the whole having Sam's voice in his house kind of indicates that he hasn't tried very hard if at all - and that's my problem with it.
                  I see what you're saying, but the bolded part is probably my main issue with it, since I just don't see that (don't buy into soul-mate idea at all really).

                  Though to continue to play devil's advocate ( ), what if Narim thought that Sam was his soul mate? She rescued him from death, he thought she was an angel, she gave him her cat (), etc. If it makes sense that Sam and Jack can't move on from the other because they're soul mates, then why not Narim not moving on from Sam if he thinks she's his soul-mate, even if he had no hope of actually doing anything about it? Reality often has little sway over feelings of the heart.

                  For Narim moving on, in Pretense when Sam wanted to meet with him alone, his first thoughts and questions were about where they'd left off in Enigma. The next time we see them meet in Between Two Fires, he never approaches her in a similar way, never brings up those feelings voluntarily, and quickly moves on when they accidentally come up with the recording. That to me clearly indicated he'd moved on to a certain extent. He hasn't completely forgotten about those feelings or entirely let them go yet, but he's no longer acting on them in relation to Sam, which was a change from Pretense.

                  No, it's perhaps not the best thing for him to do, but quite understandable to me since, after all, he'd nursed those affections for over two years from Enigma to Pretense.

                  (Ack, now I'm seeing a weird sort of Anne Elliot/Captain Wentworth vibe with these two.)

                  Originally posted by slurredspeech View Post
                  HERESY!

                  I'm not as coherent tonight as Rachel plus I don't believe in soul mates or One True Person for everyone but the subtle difference would be, with them two the feelings were reciprocated (which they knew at some point in the series); the circumstances were the factor keeping them apart. Not one of them saying 'Thanks, but no thanks' and the other hanging on, so to speak.
                  The other thing... Well, it's much harder to move on when you have the object of your affection doing the Pretty and Loveable and Heroic and Awe-Worthy right under your nose on daily basis; with Jack and Sam being who they are as characters unto themselves, it's hard not to fall in love with either a little bit every day.
                  But when you hardly see a woman you have a crush on - a woman you barely know, to be honest - the worshiping gets sort of... and I have to go back to peculiar.
                  I kinda feel the opposite, that it would be harder to move on if you didn't see the person regularly. You're left with an idealized memory/image of them, which even when it no longer matches up to reality you have a hard time letting go of. Narim's thoughts of Sam are probably still dominated by the angel he saw her as in Enigma, and while the contact they've had since helped to alter those feelings, it wasn't enough to help him move on as quickly than if they'd interacted more.

                  Rather like Martouf's feelings for Sam were at first dominated by his feelings for Jolinar, but the more he got to interact with her the more he was able to differentiate between them and come to appreciate Sam for who she actually was. Narim never really got that time/opportunity, though I think he was on his way there.

                  But I see your point re Sam and Jack, that the more they interacted the more they fell for each other. Guess it can go both ways.

                  All that said, I do have to stress one point though. If Jack opened his fridge to get a beer, and Sam's voice sing-songed 'I hope it's just as cool as you, dear', I'd... Well, I wouldn't ship them, for starters.
                  Also? Probably have a tad of an aneurism.
                  LOL! Yeah, that would be an aneurysm-inducing moment.

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                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                    You HAD to suggest a crack!fic idea. :: wanders off to think ::
                    And? Is it done yet? And now? And now???

                    (Why no, I'm not pushy)
                    "Are you like, a crazy person?"
                    "I am quite sure they will say so."

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                      I see what you're saying, but the bolded part is probably my main issue with it, since I just don't see that (don't buy into soul-mate idea at all really).
                      I knew the soulmate comment would be the most controversial.

                      I do believe in the idea of soulmates as in someone who there is a soul-deep/spiritual connection with, where there is that sense of destiny/fate about your coming together in this life-time, who you may have known and loved in previous life-times, may know and love in the next.

                      I don't believe they necessarily turn out to be the person you fall romantically in love with. I think they can be a best friend, a family member, a teacher/mentor.

                      I actually think it's very rare that a soulmate turns out to be someone you fall romantically in love with. Moreover, I certainly think its entirely possibly to have a fulfilling, romantic relationship with someone who isn't a soulmate and that there are many Ms/Mr Rights out there for each of us in that regard (and also being a single girl myself, that being single is a valid choice to make).

                      But when someone does fall romantically in love with their soulmate, I admit, I think there is that extra sense of magic; I confess I'm sappy enough to believe in the fairy-tale - and I've been lucky enough to see in real life with an aunt and uncle.

                      And one of the reasons why I personally like the Sam/Jack story so much is because for me it's a modern day fairy-tale of soulmates.

                      Not everyone is going to agree with me (including shippers) but that's OK.

                      In terms of Narim/romantic soulmate: Narim may well have believed that in Enigma given the 'angel' comparison he makes. He may well have thought that up to the moment when Sam in Pretense gives him the 'It's not you, it's me' speech. But as soon as she did, he seems as you say to have accepted that his feelings were unreciprocated.

                      Personally, I kind of feel that if the other person doesn't return your feelings and also feel they are your soulmate too, then it rather automatically negates the idea that they are your soulmate - because to continue to think they are but they themselves just don't know it yet, rather takes the whole thing back into creepy stalker/obsessiveness for me.

                      And actually I don't think Narim did continue to think she was his soulmate because as you say he had stopped pursuing her and had accepted that all she was going to be was a friend. Which again takes me back to my original point that, while it was not necessarily wrong for Narim not to have moved on, it would have been nice to have seen him having moved on rather than continuing to pine.
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                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post

                        And one of the reasons why I personally like the Sam/Jack story so much is because for me it's a modern day fairy-tale of soulmates.

                        Not everyone is going to agree with me (including shippers) but that's OK.
                        I'm not sure if it's the same concept, but at the very least they're bound by fate. That is, they're not happy with anyone else except each other- as has been shown in at least 5 AUs and one "real" timeline.

                        In some ways that's more romantic than being soul mates, at least to me. Because it implies that even if they wanted to they couldn't be apart. (Of course, that appeals to the Wuthering Heights fan in me- most of the time Catherine and Heathcliff didn't even like each other. )

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                          I kinda feel the opposite, that it would be harder to move on if you didn't see the person regularly. You're left with an idealized memory/image of them, which even when it no longer matches up to reality you have a hard time letting go of. Narim's thoughts of Sam are probably still dominated by the angel he saw her as in Enigma, and while the contact they've had since helped to alter those feelings, it wasn't enough to help him move on as quickly than if they'd interacted more.
                          Hmmm, in terms of idealization of a person, I'll agree -- it's definitely easier the less you know them, and consequently, the less you see them. But that's just infatuation, not love. And infatuation - or however we choose to call it - is by its nature not long-lasting. Especially when it's been made known to a person the other doesn't feel the same way. Gah, I don't know, I suppose I just can't see a grown-up man nursing these unreciprocated feelings for so long, without any fodder as benign as a smile, let alone any significant* history between them, and it being 'standard' or 'healthy'.

                          *I honestly don't think - in RL terms - theirs was. It was a kiss. And, sure, she saved his life and she's Carter, but still. If we're being realistic, that wouldn't be enough to keep him completely romantically devoted to her for forever.

                          Originally posted by Rachel500
                          Personally, I kind of feel that if the other person doesn't return your feelings and also feel they are your soulmate too, then it rather automatically negates the idea that they are your soulmate - because to continue to think they are but they themselves just don't know it yet, rather takes the whole thing back into creepy stalker/obsessiveness for me.
                          Even if I don't believe in soulmates - and I have tried so hard in my life to believe in the concept, alas - I do agree with the principle of what you said. Being attached to a person in a romantic sense without that person returning your feelings is unfortunate; continuing to nurse those feelings over a prolonged period of time without even trying to move on is just plain unhealthy.
                          I don't put Narim with the stalkerish type because, once Sam put him in the friend zone, he didn't consciously try to woo her despite her protests. Still. I never have and never will understand him continuing to hang on to his romantic feelings for her, abetting them even by keeping a constant reminder of her in his home.

                          And I cannot buy it as romantic love, either. A lot of feelings - his included - are often mistaken for love. But love goes hand in hand with knowing the person. Everything else - no matter how strong, or how profound it might feel - is not it.
                          Last edited by slurredspeech; December 9, 2009, 03:49 AM.
                          you're so cute when you're slurring your speech but they're closing the bar and they want us to leave


                          'What is it, Sebastian? I'm arranging matches.'


                          "Religion is far more of a choice than homosexuality. And the protections that we have, for religion --we protect religion-- and talk about a lifestyle choice! That is absolutely a choice. Gay people don't choose to be gay. At what age did you choose not to be gay?" (Jon Stewart, The King of Common Sense)

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                            Banner By Sarai



                            Synopsis

                            SG-1 gate through on a routine mission to a supposed paradise beach planet, only to (apparently) step immediately back through to the SGC. General Hammond informs them they have been gone over fifteen hours, but none of SG-1 remember any time passing at all.
                            Sam quickly figures out that the image they saw on the MALP transmission was a facade. Meanwhile SG-1 start displaying odd behaviour, largely focusing on food cravings, and an odd sort of telepathic link that draws them together to eat deserts.
                            Dr Fraiser works out that they have had their brains tampered with and a small device implanted into them that is emitting and EM field. General Hammond confines them under guard and, during this time, the devices in their brains manifests itself as a character called Urgo. Jack ascertains that only the four of them can see him. Urgo explains what he is - essentially a kind of probe - and that he can influence them but not make them do things they do not want to do. He does, however seem very influential, almost causing Teal’c to use a defibrillator on himself!
                            After brief discussion Dr Fraiser stresses that the devices can’t be removed without causing damage to their brains but Sam suggests trying to turn them off. Despite Urgo’s constant interruptions, Sam quickly works out that an EMP will disable the devices and render Urgo inert (or impotent if you prefer) , while this does work for quite some time, it’s later shown Urgo was only temporarily disabled and is laying low but he reappears when they begin acting in unison again (this time singing) and they realise he is still there.
                            SG-1 dial up the world that Urgo came from and make contact with a person named Togar who tells them that Urgo’s interaction with them is an error. After much discussion SG-1 decide to return so that Urgo can be removed, however, Sam and Daniel start to question whether Urgo is really a life form or not - much to Jack’s irritation because, being Jack he just wants rid of him.
                            They return to Togar/Urgo’s world and make contact with Togar whom they are able to persuade to let Urgo live inside his own mind and thus they save him from destruction.
                            SG-1 return to the SGC, again no time seeming to have elapsed and no memory but now free from Urgo themselves.


                            Favourite Line

                            Oh there are just too many!

                            Jack: "Apparently all deserts on base are in grave danger"

                            Urgo: (of O’Neill’s thoughts) "Who is Mary Steenbergen?"

                            Urgo: "Me or death?" (after a significant pause) "…. Well?"
                            Jack: "We’re thinking."

                            Sam: "Go eat pie with Colonel O’Neill"

                            Jack: "If you call that singing."

                            Urgo (to Jack) "You know you were just thinking of that Island Maui, with the big beaches and the little bikinis.."


                            Favourite moment

                            Again I could pick out half a dozen but, for the sake of keeping it concise:

                            SG-1 singing "Row row row your boat", because it’s just so funny!

                            Special mention goes to the scene where Urgo mentions the little bikinis and Sam turns and gives Jack that look and he give her a look back. It’s just so cute!



                            Review

                            I think this episode is a bit like marmite; you either love it or hate it and a lot of that depends on who appreciative you are of the sort of humour Dom Deluise brings to proceedings. I, personally, love it, partly because you can see they all had such a blast making it (and I’ll bet there’s some gag reels lying around from that episode) but also because I think RDA just makes such a great straight man to Dom. Also, it was quite nice to see AT having a crack at humour too, and proving she’s quite funny herself. It almost makes me wish she’d had more opportunity to do that on SG-1.
                            On the whole, the plot is fairly thin and I think without Dom Deluise, it would have been a very blah episode - he really carries it - but then the same can be said for a lot of episodes where the plot wasn’t all that but there was something pretty special (a performance or special effects or just some character development) that raised the bar. It just proves you can forgive a lot if there’s plenty else to keep the viewer interested.
                            One interesting thing is this is another example of that "alien influence" thing making members of SG-1 do things they would not normally be inclined to do. Although, as Urgo does point out, he supposedly can’t make people do something they wouldn’t or don’t want to do, but he can influence them into doing something they might by suggestion and heightening their reaction and sense to it. All of which has, I am sure (heck, I know), spawned some pretty interesting fanfics, most of which I couldn’t link here even if I wanted to because of the rating. Although I am sure somewhere in the episode writing process someone probably suggested Urgo enhancing *cough* other pleasures but I am actually quite glad they didn’t go there this time; it would have left the episode feeling unfocused. The point here is, just like all those other times SG-1 or other SG members are under an alien influence - like when Sam jumped Jack in the locker room in Broca Divide or when they disobeyed orders to go blow up Apophis’ mother ship in Upgrades - everything they did involved a degree of free will. I’m sure you can see the obvious conclusion to that. The only time anyone does something completely against their potential behaviour pattern is when they have absolutely no control at all (i.e. Jack in Abyss or Sam in Entity).


                            General Observations

                            Is this the first time we see Sam eating blue jello?

                            SG-1 are all getting ready in the same locker room at one point. Well at least Sam’s in with the others and, as Jack’s doing up his belt I’m going to assume he just put his pants on… umm, should that be under the shippy observations?

                            This is probably where Jack’s (oft overused in Fanon) pie obsession originated since it’s referenced throughout the episode.

                            Between Dom Deluise and RDA’s well known penchant for it I don’t even want to think about how much of this episode was ad-libbed. This is one of those times I really wish they had commentaries for the earlier seasons, not to mention wished they’d show the outtakes. I’d pay money for them!



                            Shippy observations

                            In the first scene in the infirmary after Urgo reveals itself , Sam and Jack are sitting awfully close, together on the bed. At one point their arms are touching. After that, though, Sam does kind of back away slightly. Maybe the bumping arms was a bit of a warning flag for her?

                            In an attempt to convince Sam not to switch him off, Urgo tries to make himself more appealing by appearing as a USAF officer in service dress. Is this just Urgo picking a random general thought about men in uniforms from Sam’s head, or is he specifically picking on a particular man in uniform (because, let’s face it, Jack’s pretty hot in his service dress.) Actually, if I am honest, I don’t really think that’s shippy because if Urgo was picking up on Sam’s specific appreciation of Jack in service dress, surely he would have appeared as Jack, not some youngerish looking version of himself that bears an uncanny resemblance to the guy who directed this episode? But it’s worth meentioning since I know a lot of people have raised it as being shippy before.


                            The scene immediately after this is in the briefing room. Jack and Sam sit next to each other, very close. This scene is probably most remembered for that cute little hand touch, but actually, watch the whole scene from before that and the way they almost perfectly mirror each other’s body language.
                            They do that mirroring thing a lot, but I think this is one of the more prominent scenes where we really see it and, even if you don’t watch the whole episode, I’d certainly stick it on and skip to this chapter just to see it.






                            And, because we’ve been discussing it fairly recently on the appreciation thread, I was instantly reminded of a much later occasion we see such blatant mirroring in a very similar pose:







                            Watching the two scenes back to back is really quite enlightening.


                            There’s also a look Sam gives Jack when Urgo mentions Jacks thoughts about bikinis. More importantly the slightly deer in the headlights look he gives back. It’s really… couply!

                            And again, there’s a reasonable amount of framing of them two, and reaction shots off of each other throughout the episode. However, on the whole, I don’t think it’s dominant enough to be overtly or intentionally shippy.


                            Implications for The Ship


                            I think the biggest implication here is how completely comfortable Sam and Jack are with each other, which is something that only really becomes important in hindsight because the next episode is Hundred Days and things definitely change after that point. This is probably the very last time (in the series) we see Sam and Jack completely comfortable with each other and unaware what they are starting to feel for each other. Also, and this is something Jenn pointed out in the recent discussions (thank you Jenn) SG-1 do spend a good deal of time just doing nothing and hanging out on base after Sam first attempts to switch Urgo off. At least a week here and possibly some time after Urgo is removed too. It’s a good guess that this would have been the first time any of them really spent a significant amount of time together in a no peril/no pressure situation. People behave very differently in social / leisure situations than they do at work and you learn a lot about them as a person. I have to wonder just what they all learnt about each other during this time.

                            And just because I can't stress it enough. This is about the last time we ever see completely comfortable and unconcious flirty friendshippy affection between them. Once they ate from the tree of knowledge, everything that comes afterwards - no matter how flirty, fun or friendly - is tinged with the fact they know it goes much much, much deeper... as deep as their souls... (Insert ominious doom laden music.... )
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                              I have to admit that I love "Urgo" (but I hate Vegemite - is that like marmite? - maybe it's because I'm an American - but I know an Aussie who also hates Vegemite...).

                              I'd never given it much thought before that the next episode is 100 Days - and with that in mind it's interesting that such a light-hearted episode leads into such angst. I wonder if this episode is sort of like the clincher - the last moment before everything stop being "innocent" so to speak - because as you pointed out, this seems to be the last time they're flirty and comfortable (until Threads - that fishing scene - Jack was comfortable. Relaxed even).

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                                Great review Cags!

                                Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                                One interesting thing is this is another example of that "alien influence" thing making members of SG-1 do things they would not normally be inclined to do. Although, as Urgo does point out, he supposedly can’t make people do something they wouldn’t or don’t want to do, but he can influence them into doing something they might by suggestion and heightening their reaction and sense to it. All of which has, I am sure (heck, I know), spawned some pretty interesting fanfics, most of which I couldn’t link here even if I wanted to because of the rating. Although I am sure somewhere in the episode writing process someone probably suggested Urgo enhancing *cough* other pleasures but I am actually quite glad they didn’t go there this time; it would have left the episode feeling unfocused. The point here is, just like all those other times SG-1 or other SG members are under an alien influence - like when Sam jumped Jack in the locker room in Broca Divide or when they disobeyed orders to go blow up Apophis’ mother ship in Upgrades - everything they did involved a degree of free will. I’m sure you can see the obvious conclusion to that. The only time anyone does something completely against their potential behaviour pattern is when they have absolutely no control at all (i.e. Jack in Abyss or Sam in Entity).
                                Very good point, and although it had occurred to me I hadn't really realised that this episode underlines that distinction so completely.

                                Between Dom Deluise and RDA’s well known penchant for it I don’t even want to think about how much of this episode was ad-libbed. This is one of those times I really wish they had commentaries for the earlier seasons, not to mention wished they’d show the outtakes. I’d pay money for them!
                                Oh me too!

                                In an attempt to convince Sam not to switch him off, Urgo tries to make himself more appealing by appearing as a USAF officer in service dress. Is this just Urgo picking a random general thought about men in uniforms from Sam’s head, or is he specifically picking on a particular man in uniform (because, let’s face it, Jack’s pretty hot in his service dress.) Actually, if I am honest, I don’t really think that’s shippy because if Urgo was picking up on Sam’s specific appreciation of Jack in service dress, surely he would have appeared as Jack, not some youngerish looking version of himself that bears an uncanny resemblance to the guy who directed this episode? But it’s worth meentioning since I know a lot of people have raised it as being shippy before.
                                I think it's kind of shippy, because of the uniform thing, but I take your point, and in hindsight it becomes a bit less so with the fact that of course there is a bit of a resemblance to her future fiance that we all like so much

                                The scene immediately after this is in the briefing room. Jack and Sam sit next to each other, very close. This scene is probably most remembered for that cute little hand touch, but actually, watch the whole scene from before that and the way they almost perfectly mirror each other’s body language.
                                They do that mirroring thing a lot, but I think this is one of the more prominent scenes where we really see it and, even if you don’t watch the whole episode, I’d certainly stick it on and skip to this chapter just to see it.


                                And, because we’ve been discussing it fairly recently on the appreciation thread, I was instantly reminded of a much later occasion we see such blatant mirroring in a very similar pose:



                                Watching the two scenes back to back is really quite enlightening.
                                Oh good catch with the similarity to Threads! Really all this, and the exceptionally close sitting in the infirmary that you also pointed out, just underline your final point about how comfortable they are, and unconsciously so, at this point. I hadn't made the connection either that this is the last time - although I'd argue there are flashes of it between 100 Days and the end of the season - the scene in the briefing room in Crystal Skull for example where Sam's knee is practically in Jack's lap leaps to mind But yes, otherwise you are exactly right - and way to bring the angst to one of the least angsty episodes of the whole show!
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