Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

Pretense

Favorite Scene:
When we first meet Zipacna. This guy is a real trip, I have to say.

Favorite Quote:
“That’s a pretty fine line you didn’t cross.” (Not only is Sam’s assessment spot-on, it’s very Jack-like in the way she scrambles the two metaphors).

Awesome banner by jumble!

I love futuristic settings, and we don’t get to see enough of them in Stargate due to the fact that the team is always dealing with the goa’uld and they keep their conquered civilizations very primitive. Of course, that’s also what allows SG-1 to be the heroes so often so it’s a fair trade.

Personally, I love this episode because of the Triad and the logic presented there. Also, there seems to be pretense on all sides- not only the obvious duplicity of the goa’uld but the Nox pretending to be impartial and above the fray, when in fact they aren’t- but perhaps that’s what saves them in the end. Not only were the Tollan arrogant but they were also unwilling to call a bad guy a bad guy. Both the Tollan and Nox seem to be, in their own ways, “pre 9/11”. They don’t think anything can threaten them because they’re so advanced and civilized they don’t even think strategically any more, as Teal’c pointed out. It’s eerie that this aired in early 2001, I think.

Anyway, there’s some nice closure with Narim and Sam in this episode, (well, at least there’s closure for Sam). Personally, I liked Narim. Although, I do find Sam’s explanation a little bit off. I understand she might not be able to tell what her true feelings are for Martouf, but how would this affect her feelings for Narim? And what about her feelings for Jack? Does she suspect there’s some generic “love” switch that’s been flipped inside her head? I suppose it doesn’t have to make sense if she’s just using it as an excuse to let Narim down gently.

In some ways I think there are parallels between Pete and Narim. In both cases, she seems to enjoy the attention and the idea of having a relationship, but here she has time to reflect and figures out what’s right for her. And Narim seems more attuned to what she might be thinking. It also occurred to me that all of the aliens (Narim, Martouf, Fifth and Orlin) use some kind of alien influence to try to manipulate her feelings. Does this somehow make her wonder whether what she feels for Jack is the real deal? I would think it would have the opposite effect, but perhaps it just leaves her confused about these things.

Jack’s behavior in this episode sets up Shades of Grey very well. It’s completely plausible he’d be fed up with the Tollan’s attitude, especially since SG-1 saved their cute little grey butts. And also, we have another example of him letting his personal feelings sway him, because Teal’c was right about making Skaara a priority when the whole civilization was at risk. Sam wouldn’t go against Jack’s orders, but Teal’c would because he knows what’s at stake.

All in all, this is a very nice ep for all of the characters. Even Daniel gets to hone his negotiating skills a bit.

Implications for Sam and Jack: Sam’s comments to Narim are interesting. I wonder if this general confusion she has causes her to think that the feelings she has in A Hundred Days are not “real”, either. Or perhaps she disregards the feelings she has right now because of the whole Jolinar issue and so they sneak up on her a bit by the time of that particular episode.

[Nynaeve506]

Personally, Narim has always seemed a little icky to me. Maybe it's because I don't find the actor attractive and I'm thinking in my head "You can do hotter, like Jack hot..."

On the issue of Sam and her feelings - I think she's overly focused on Jolinar right now because of everything that's gone on recently. Perhaps there's difficulty because finds Martouf attractive and she's not sure if that's her or Jolinar (jumping ahead to Ripple Effect, we still see Jolinar's feelings having some power over her, but her alternate DID live with Martouf for a while in a romantic relationship which leads me to suspect that somewhere she has some fondness for him).

With Jack I think she has to be somewhat aware that she's attracted to him. We'll see this get stronger as the season progresses (although I personally don't think either of them understands the full depth of what they're feeling until the force field). It's like her brain knows she's not supposed to feel something for Jack so she clamps it down, she knows she feels something for Martouf but she doesn't know how much is her and how much is Jolinar.

Emotions get tricky - often times we make things more complicated or we choose to deny and use the "it's complicated" as an excuse to avoid dealing with it on any in depth level.

[JenniferJF]

Anyway, there’s some nice closure with Narim and Sam in this episode, (well, at least there’s closure for Sam). Personally, I liked Narim. Although, I do find Sam’s explanation a little bit off. I understand she might not be able to tell what her true feelings are for Martouf, but how would this affect her feelings for Narim? And what about her feelings for Jack? Does she suspect there’s some generic “love” switch that’s been flipped inside her head? I suppose it doesn’t have to make sense if she’s just using it as an excuse to let Narim down gently.

This episode is shortly after Jolinar's Memories and TDYK (which is when I think Sam fully realized her feelings for Martouf were 'artificial') and Urgo/100 Days... S4, Urgo being when I think Sam totally and completely fell in love with Jack (SG1 practically lived together for weeks and weeks) 100 Days when she figured it out, and S4 when they determined what they were going to do about it (repress their feelings for the next 4 years). But I do think Sam had feelings for Jack at the time of this episode (uhm.. not going to recite all the examples here).

So I think, at this point in that process, Sam was just confused. She wasn't sure which feelings were her own, which were a result of artificial memories/devices (remember, Narim had used that emotional thingie on her back in Enigma to make her feel love towards him - which has always bugged me even worse than Martouf letting Sam get close to him when channeling Jolinar) and which were her own emotions. So I think she really did need time to figure out what emotions were her own before she moved forward with any relationship. Though I think that happened fairly quickly with the events of Urgo then 100 Days , indicating to me she likely had some inkling some of those feelings inside here were true feelings...and not for Narim. So, in other words, I also think she was letting him down gently. Though, tbh, I think her feelings for Narim were always sort of like those for Pete - based more on her surprise at finding someone actually that attracted to her and flattering to that part of her than real true 'liking'.

As far as Twi mentioning the Ripple Effect connection - and I'm taking JM at his word that in the AU where she and Martouf got together she and Jack actually got together *sooner* - I tend to think the branch in that universe happened sometime around JM/TDYK, in which Sam didn't get her feelings vs. Jolinar's sorted out the way she did in our reality, and so attempted something with Martouf. Only, that being based on Jolinar, it eventually fell apart and she ended up - more quickly ironically, possibly because in the situation with Martouf she'd learned to look her emotions fully in the face without fear - with Jack anyway.

But.. back to Pretense. I've always found that conversation between Sam and Narim to be closure not just for Narim and her, but for her and Martouf, and to be the turning point at which she realizes her feelings for them were false and then searches to understand her true feelings - which she realizes are those she's beginning to feel for Jack.

Though I don't honestly think Sam only realized the true extent of her feelings for Jack at the forcefield. I really think she knew she was in love with him after 100 Days. I don't think, though, it was until D&C that she realized Jack loved her as much - and that his love for her was going to cost him his life. Which is why I think she turned down the fishing invite even after realizing it was, effectively, a 'date'. Not because she wasn't interested, but because she was and knew she was...

[Nynaeve506]

As far as Josi mentioning the Ripple Effect connection - and I'm taking JM at his word that in the AU where she and Martouf got together she and Jack actually got together *sooner* - I tend to think the branch in that universe happened sometime around JM/TDYK, in which Sam didn't get her feelings vs. Jolinar's sorted out the way she did in our reality, and so attempted something with Martouf. Only, that being based on Jolinar, it eventually fell apart and she ended up - more quickly ironically, possibly because in the situation with Martouf she'd learned to look her emotions fully in the face without fear - with Jack anyway.

Josi? But... but... I mentioned RE

Okay moving on LOL - I never heard JM's take on the whole Martouf thing. I guess in my head (and believe or not, this is a plot animal in my brain) I thought that perhaps she decided to pursue something (perhaps deciding that Jolinar's emotions were just a part of her) and they got together but it devolved as she realized that *she* really didn't feel more than a degree of fondness and friendship - as time went by Jolinar's emotions weren't sustained by her own and eventually faded - thus freeing her up to go marry Jack, her one true love (*insert useful Princess Bride Quote here*)

Though I don't honestly think Sam only realized the true extent of her feelings for Jack at the forcefield. I really think she knew she was in love with him after 100 Days. I don't think, though, it was until D&C that she realized Jack loved her as much - and that his love for her was going to cost him his life. Which is why I think she turned down the fishing invite even after realizing it was, effectively, a 'date'. Not because she wasn't interested, but because she was and knew she was...

I don't know that I agree that she came to an understanding of her feelings before D&C. I guess in my brain I just sort of put Jack and Sam together on the track... but so much of Sam's emotions go unsaid - we have to rely on behavior (whereas we get Jack's words in D&C - interestingly, this switches in S7 where we get Sam's words but we have to watch Jack's actions). I think in 100 Days Sam gets hit in the face with the fact that she's feeling something inappropriate and I do think she starts to get an inkling but I don't think she lets herself *consider* the point until D&C. Suddenly, faced with his emotions, I think she realizes this is way more than she thought it was on both sides. (I'm also of the tiny tiny camp that doesn't think Sam confessed to any feelings during the Za'tarc testing...)

[JenniferJF]

Josi? But... but... I mentioned RE

*hugs* *sniff* I fixeded it... *sniff*

[JenniferJF]

(I'm also of the tiny tiny camp that doesn't think Sam confessed to any feelings during the Za'tarc testing...)

So you think what she had to confess was that Jack stayed because he loved her? Which might make sense, only I think the determined way Sam says it, and the fact (and I love this) it's her strength which carries Jack through his confession as he looks her straight in the eye (which reminds me of the comments I just made re: Continuum on the other thread), she'd have made the admission if for no other reason than to make him feel better. Because I think it's fairly clear Jack does know afterwards... Because for the next few years, it's primarily Sam approaching Jack and him pushing her away.

And I can't really see Jack doing what he did in WoO the way he did it if he didn't know how he'd be received

[Rachel500]

As everyone probably knows by now I agree with Jenn on the timing of Sam's realisations (she gets hit in the face with the knowledge she loves Jack in A Hundred Days, hit in the face with the knowledge he loves her enough to die for her in D&C).

That said...Pretense...

The whole basis of that scene for me is Sam (and TPTB) effectively ending the Sam/Narim storyline while bringing back the Tollana.

Narim...how creepy art thou...the whole emotional recorder thing is just icky and I agree with Jenn, it's a shade worse than Martouf taking advantage of Sam's latent Jolinar memories to get close to her. Plus I agree I don't think physically that there was great chemistry between them (interestingly I think the actor looks hotter and has better chemistry when he's recast as Weir's other half in S1 of SGA).

I do think that when she says she's sorting her feelings out, I think she means it (although clearly the conversation is the 'it's not you, it's me' speech of dumping. But I do think it's more about her feelings in general, then her Jolinar feelings in particular. I do think after JM/TDKY Sam's ability to seperate out her memories and feelings from Jolinar's is probably at its zenith and I think she knows what she truly feels for Martouf (friendship) but has been confused by heightened feelings for Jack - and I think that's what's she's questioning. Are her feelings/attraction for Jack just because of the experience she's gone through/do they have something to do with Jolinar? And that's what's she trying to sort out.

With Martouf in RE, I always thought, D&C happens as it does and Martouf is put in stasis (which is what happens we just don't see it, we learn about it in Summit)...Entity happens...but in that AU they found some way of reversing the za'tarc brainwashing and were able to revive him. Maybe they get reunited in Summit which is when Sam and Jack are ostensibly trying to move on, and their friendship becomes something more...leading as Jenn says to an earlier resolution of Sam/Jack as Martouf effectively is that AU's Pete.

[Rachel500]

So you think what she had to confess was that Jack stayed because he loved her? Which might make sense, only I think the determined way Sam says it, and the fact (and I love this) it's her strength which carries Jack through his confession as he looks her straight in the eye (which reminds me of the comments I just made re: Continuum on the other thread), she'd have made the admission if for no other reason than to make him feel better. Because I think it's fairly clear Jack does know afterwards... Because for the next few years, it's primarily Sam approaching Jack and him pushing her away.

And I can't really see Jack doing what he did in WoW the way he did it if he didn't know how he'd be received

I think Sam did confess as much as Jack did. I think she followed his lead and used his words...

"I care about him more than I should..."

Jenn, why do you keep referring to Windows of Opportunity (WoO) as WoW??

[JenniferJF]

leading as Jenn says to an earlier resolution of Sam/Jack as Martouf effectively is that AU's Pete.

However you time things, the above statement is true.

Which is hysterical, really, and the funniest thing IMHO about RE. Because, effectively, TPTB are laughing at us shippers and our Great Fear of Sam having other boyfriends, by showing that the end point in her having them is, really, to get her feelings for Jack straightened out so she can end up with him. So as against the idea of Sam/Martouf as shippers were back in the day, if they'd gone there, we'd have ended up where we wanted to be sooner: having Sam and Jack together (and making babies, which is even funnier, cause to hit us over the head with it they gave us the whole ball of wax). Instead.. we got potatoes and delays.

Hmmm...

Maybe I'm the only one who giggles every time I think of that. Could be.

EDIT: WoO as WoW. ROFL. Cause I write WoW all the time elsewhere and my fingers typo it lol

[EvenstarSRV]

I love futuristic settings, and we don’t get to see enough of them in Stargate due to the fact that the team is always dealing with the goa’uld and they keep their conquered civilizations very primitive. Of course, that’s also what allows SG-1 to be the heroes so often so it’s a fair trade.

I like the futuristic setting here too, and later when Sam goes to the Asgard homeworld. It's a neat aspect to Stargate that they can go to such different civilizations every week.

In some ways I think there are parallels between Pete and Narim. In both cases, she seems to enjoy the attention and the idea of having a relationship, but here she has time to reflect and figures out what’s right for her. And Narim seems more attuned to what she might be thinking. It also occurred to me that all of the aliens (Narim, Martouf, Fifth and Orlin) use some kind of alien influence to try to manipulate her feelings. Does this somehow make her wonder whether what she feels for Jack is the real deal? I would think it would have the opposite effect, but perhaps it just leaves her confused about these things.

The main difference I see between the men like Narim, Martouf, Fifth, Orlin and Jack, is that Sam had only sporadic contact with them at best, while she worked and interacted with Jack on a daily basis. So I have a hard time putting any potential feelings Sam may have developed for them on an equal basis with what she develops for Jack, because she never got the opportunity to know and interact with them at a similar level.

I saw Sam's explanation as her still being confused in general about her feelings. She's gotten better at separating her feelings from Jolinar's after JM/TDYK, but it's still a new level of understanding she perhaps doesn't completely trust yet. Add to that her growing feelings for Jack, and then dealing with Narim's interest again, and Sam probably feels like her emotions are being tugged in 3 different directions. Though an varying strengths as I think her feelings for Jack (friendship or otherwise) are far stronger then the friendship (or otherwise) she feels for Martouf and Narim.

So I think, at this point in that process, Sam was just confused. She wasn't sure which feelings were her own, which were a result of artificial memories/devices (remember, Narim had used that emotional thingie on her back in Enigma to make her feel love towards him - which has always bugged me even worse than Martouf letting Sam get close to him when channeling Jolinar) and which were her own emotions. So I think she really did need time to figure out what emotions were her own before she moved forward with any relationship. Though I think that happened fairly quickly with the events of Urgo then 100 Days , indicating to me she likely had some inkling some of those feelings inside here were true feelings...and not for Narim. So, in other words, I also think she was letting him down gently. Though, tbh, I think her feelings for Narim were always sort of like those for Pete - based more on her surprise at finding someone actually that attracted to her and flattering to that part of her than real true 'liking'.

Backtracking to Enigma a bit, I never got the sense the Narim gave the emotion recorder to Sam to *make* her feel love for him. I just saw it as his culture's way of expressing his feelings for her, putting an Tollan technological-spin on an otherwise normal human act of telling someone 'I really like you'.

[Nynaeve506]

So you think what she had to confess was that Jack stayed because he loved her? Which might make sense, only I think the determined way Sam says it, and the fact (and I love this) it's her strength which carries Jack through his confession as he looks her straight in the eye (which reminds me of the comments I just made re: Continuum on the other thread), she'd have made the admission if for no other reason than to make him feel better. Because I think it's fairly clear Jack does know afterwards... Because for the next few years, it's primarily Sam approaching Jack and him pushing her away.

And I can't really see Jack doing what he did in WoW the way he did it if he didn't know how he'd be received

I'm not saying that Jack wasn't aware of how she felt. I think he's a perceptive enough guy that he knows when a woman is interested in him. You're right that he wouldn't have kissed her without some idea of how it would be received, but isn't it interesting that he waits until RIGHT before the loop starts again?

If I were to imagine her testimony it would sound something like this:

"I realized I was trapped. Colonel O'Neill started trying to find a way out and I told him that it was no use. The C4 was going to blow and he needed to get out but he refused."

"How did you feel?"

"Terrified. Frustrated. He looked so desperate and I knew he wouldn't leave me behind... I knew he was... I realized how he felt and I thought that if I was going to die then at least I wasn't going to die alone." (looks at Jack).

So... that's my take anyway. Feel free to disagree

[Nynaeve506]

However you time things, the above statement is true.

Which is hysterical, really, and the funniest thing IMHO about RE. Because, effectively, TPTB are laughing at us shippers and our Great Fear of Sam having other boyfriends, by showing that the end point in her having them is, really, to get her feelings for Jack straightened out so she can end up with him. So as against the idea of Sam/Martouf as shippers were back in the day, if they'd gone there, we'd have ended up where we wanted to be sooner: having Sam and Jack together (and making babies, which is even funnier, cause to hit us over the head with it they gave us the whole ball of wax). Instead.. we got potatoes and delays.

Hmmm...

Maybe I'm the only one who giggles every time I think of that. Could be.

EDIT: WoO as WoW. ROFL. Cause I write WoW all the time elsewhere and my fingers typo it lol

Aren't we all talking about the same thing? I'm confused. LOL I'm pretty sure in my head if she had been with Martouf it would have been in the early seasons.

And as for WoW - my brain just automatically replaced the 2nd W with an O - I so didn't even catch it LOL

[Rachel500]

<snip>


Backtracking to Enigma a bit, I never got the sense the Narim gave the emotion recorder to Sam to *make* her feel love for him. I just saw it as his culture's way of expressing his feelings for her, putting an Tollan technological-spin on an otherwise normal human act of telling someone 'I really like you'.

I think at the time it does come across as "sweet" but by the time we hit Between Two Fires and he has Sam's voice in his home, it definitely takes on a fairly creepy air in retrospect for me.

[JenniferJF]

Aren't we all talking about the same thing? I'm confused. LOL I'm pretty sure in my head if she had been with Martouf it would have been in the early seasons.

Yes. We are. I was just pointing out I think it's funny in RE. That is all (cause that episode just cracks me up every time ) Mostly cause I'm obviously insane.

[EvenstarSRV]

I think at the time it does come across as "sweet" but by the time we hit Between Two Fires and he has Sam's voice in his home, it definitely takes on a fairly creepy air in retrospect for me.

Heh, the voice thing came across the same way as the recorder did for me, a Tollan equivalent of keeping a picture of Sam or something along those lines. He clearly never meant for her to hear it and had accepted Sam's letdown in Pretense since he never again brought up his feelings for her, so I didn't get a creepy vibe from either. Of course, I really enjoyed Sam's interactions and friendships with Narim (and Martouf) so I'm kinda biased in their favor.