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    Originally posted by Rogue View Post
    When did they change the thread name? Guess I have been gone too long. Should have renamed it Sam O'Neill/Jack O'Neill Ship Thread.
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      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
      Like I said, I think Jack's "rivalry" with Martouf isn't a conscious thing. I don't see him explicitly thinking 'Martouf is a rival.'

      But I'm afraid we may have to agree to disagree on this one as I can't agree he doesn't subconsciously place Martouf as a rival.

      For me, it's a case of human nature: if you like person X romantically and see them interacting with person Y who has had a previous romantic relationship with X and is holding her hand, refers back to previous intimate occasions, that is going to make you uncomfortable on a whole other level than if you're only friends.
      I guess my main discomfort is with the term 'rival', because it seems to imply that Jack, even subconsciously, is competing with Martouf for Sam's affections, and I just never saw that. Plus, for me, I see Jack's feelings for Sam at this point to still be more friendship and attraction rather than love, so I can't quite see him considering Martouf as a romantic rival for Sam because he doesn't consider himself to be a romantic contender either. So agree to disagree it is.

      I think this is another example where two people can watch the same scene and come away with two very different interpretations.

      For me, his acknowledgement that he realises that Sam finds his relationship with Jolinar uncomfortable is one more rooted not so much in being supportive or caring of Sam's feelings but in ensuring Sam didn't do what Jolinar did and suppress the information vital for their mission to succeed because of any feelings she (Jolinar) may have had for him.
      I saw his caring for both reasons, he's aware of her discomfort of Jolinar's relationship with Martouf and is sorry for that, and he also wants her to not hold anything back because of those feelings. In that way, I think he's helping Sam differentiate between her feelings and Jolinar's, telling her not to follow/feel what Jolinar did, but do/feel what she wants to. That to me shows an acknowledgment and concern for Sam's feelings by Martouf.

      I just will always feel that Martouf sees Sam primarily as Jolinar's last host, the last connection he has with the love of his life, his soulmate (and I do have a soft spot for Martouf/Jolinar because I do think the two of them really did love each other and that love is overwhelming and intense, all-consuming), rather than Sam for herself.

      I think its telling in D&C when Martouf himself tells Sam explicitly that he has come to care for Sam and 'not only what she carries of Jolinar' - and these two episodes (more TDYK rather than JM) are where for me that separation between Sam and Jolinar occurs for Martouf.

      Here in JM, IMO, when he sets out, he's still looking primarily at Sam as Jolinar's host. I will say I think that scene where he acknowledges Sam is discomfitted by his and Jolinar's relationship is the beginning of his making a differentiation (and completed when Apophis tries to pass Sam off as Rosha/Jolinar).

      But I also thinks D&C's Martouf statement also gives away that he acknowledges/suspects that Sam's view of his feelings for her are also that he only cares for her because of what she carries of Jolinar, and not for her as a person in her own right. And I just think he had to come to that conclusion either from something Sam says to him offscreen or in viewing their last interaction (which was on this mission). And if so why does he? Because Sam must act or say something which suggests that's the conclusion she's drawn.
      For me, I see most of Martouf's interest in Sam as Jolinar's host in JM to be because her memories are the key to the mission, not that he only cares about that part of Sam. He continually shows concern/sympathy for Sam's concern for her Dad

      So while I'd agree that Martouf's interest in Sam began because she was Jolinar's last host, I think he was fairly quickly able to differentiate his feelings for Jolinar from his feelings for Sam, even before TDYK because he knew it was really Sam and not Rosha/Jolinar in Apophis's trick.

      I think Martouf is probably aware that Sam may feel he only cares about the memories/feelings of Jolinar she carries because even by D&C that is still probably the strongest connection between them. I also think Martouf knows that Sam doesn't really have his knowledge/experience with the details of the host/symbiote relationship, so I saw his statement in D&C as a clarification for Sam for those reasons.

      Originally posted by col aga View Post
      That's also how I see it and therefore I agree completely. I guess Jack was a bit overprotective of Sam because he noticed Jolinar was the first thing on Martouf's mind, not Sam, while he as Sam's CO had a duty to ensure her safety and well-being. I don't see any rivalry between them but I do see Jack being a little peeved at Marty for focusing so much on the mission and Jolinar at the cost of Sam's comfort.
      The bolded part was what I was trying to say. And to me, Martouf was focused on Jolinar not because that's the only part of Sam he cares about, but because her memories were the key to the mission. While Jack has always been skeptical about those memories to a degree, plus he never puts as much faith in them to help them with the mission like Martouf does.

      See, I don't buy that. He could have directed her to a memory of her getting her assignment. Or telling him about it. Or better yet, the last few minutes before her departure. There was absolutely no reason for him to prompt Sam to remember the whole night. I agree with Rachel; it's definitely a moment when Martouf is so focused on his relationship with Jolinar that he doesn't really see *Sam*. And then there is the "icky factor" already mentioned.
      Well, I saw it as Martouf using himself as a reference point for Sam to find Jolinar's memories related to going to Netu. Because Sam only gets vague flashes, it probably had to be a very strong/powerful memory, which I think the one on the ridge would be more than getting the assignment or leaving, which Martouf may not have even been there for.

      And personally, I don't think he specifically wanted her to remember the whole night, he seemed surprised that she did. So while yes, it was icky for Sam to remember Martouf and Jolinar together, I see it as an unfortunate side effect, not something that Martouf intentionally wanted Sam to experience.

      Of course I may be biased because I never liked Martouf. He was too slimy for me, there was something dishonest about him that made me unable to buy him as a good guy. Throughout the show I kept waiting for him to betray SG-1 or the Tok'ra or something and when he died, as a martyr really, I was like: "wow, so he was on the right side the whole time, huh.."
      Awww, I've always like Martouf. I guess that's why I'm probably little biased in relation to his actions and feelings in this ep.

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        Originally posted by Rogue View Post
        When did they change the thread name? Guess I have been gone too long. Should have renamed it Sam O'Neill/Jack O'Neill Ship Thread.
        I was going to say "well there is this thread titled 'Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread" ... and then I looked closely at what you wrote.

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          Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
          Were both Daniel and Jack uncomfortable with Sam discussing Jolinar's memory of the night with Martouf? Yes. But given I ascribe different feelings towards Sam to them (Daniel has a sisterly affection and deep friendship love, Jack has a romantic attachment and love), those reactions of discomfort are motivated from different places IMO.
          Posting after working for 16 hours, so maybe jumbled IMHO, and it was this way from the first time I watched it back when I didn't give two figs for 'the ship', Jack and Martouf, especially in the scenes on the ship and earlier, are butting horns over Sam. Its essentially a power struggle with her at the center. IMHO, of course. That's just how it *feels*, and how it looks to me.

          And people may see the idea of Jack somehow protecting Sam as being sexist, but frankly I see this episode as an example of how very non-sexist Jack is. Because what Jack is protecting - essentially - is *Sam* the person, her feelings and needs and emotions. He quite clearly respects and has no concerns for her ability as a military officer, which several of you have already given examples of (handing her the gun, assuming she'll figure out the way out) And he doesn't see her as being less of an officer because she has a softer emotional side and might be vulnerable there. And I can't help but think that's part of what draws Sam to Jack - she's gotta be starting to sense he doesn't see her as being less capable simply because she has emotional needs. She doesn't have to hide who she is around him.

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            Originally posted by hedwig View Post
            I was going to say "well there is this thread titled 'Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread" ... and then I looked closely at what you wrote.
            ditto
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              Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
              Posting after working for 16 hours, so maybe jumbled IMHO, and it was this way from the first time I watched it back when I didn't give two figs for 'the ship', Jack and Martouf, especially in the scenes on the ship and earlier, are butting horns over Sam. Its essentially a power struggle with her at the center. IMHO, of course. That's just how it *feels*, and how it looks to me.

              And people may see the idea of Jack somehow protecting Sam as being sexist, but frankly I see this episode as an example of how very non-sexist Jack is. Because what Jack is protecting - essentially - is *Sam* the person, her feelings and needs and emotions. He quite clearly respects and has no concerns for her ability as a military officer, which several of you have already given examples of (handing her the gun, assuming she'll figure out the way out) And he doesn't see her as being less of an officer because she has a softer emotional side and might be vulnerable there. And I can't help but think that's part of what draws Sam to Jack - she's gotta be starting to sense he doesn't see her as being less capable simply because she has emotional needs. She doesn't have to hide who she is around him.
              I think it's also important to note that just because you feel protective of someone doesn't mean you think they can't handle it. It's a natural desire to keep someone you love from experiencing pain. I think it's just displayed differently in men and women.

              Comment


                Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                And people may see the idea of Jack somehow protecting Sam as being sexist, but frankly I see this episode as an example of how very non-sexist Jack is. Because what Jack is protecting - essentially - is *Sam* the person, her feelings and needs and emotions. He quite clearly respects and has no concerns for her ability as a military officer, which several of you have already given examples of (handing her the gun, assuming she'll figure out the way out) And he doesn't see her as being less of an officer because she has a softer emotional side and might be vulnerable there. And I can't help but think that's part of what draws Sam to Jack - she's gotta be starting to sense he doesn't see her as being less capable simply because she has emotional needs. She doesn't have to hide who she is around him.
                It always kind of confuses me when people say that, especially in regard to Sam and Jack. I suppose I can sort of understand why people who adore Carter and admire her for who she is and all she's done (I'm not even going to mention the haters because it's moot) - and I've been guilty of that myself, albeit in real life - might be extra sensitive when any speculation about her needing more protection than the guys, or any other variety of 'special treatement' arise.

                However, the desire to protect a person you care about - whether you care about them a lot more than you're supposed to, or just the appropriate amount - not wanting to see them hurt, and doing whatever is necessary to ensure that doesn't happen... I guess I personally see it as simply human, rather than sexist, or any other -ist. I'm a woman yet God knows I can be just as protective of my boyfriend at times as he can be of me. It never implies lack of respect or feelings of inferiority.
                Now, if Jack went out of his way to keep her out of any dangerous situations - which, then he might as well tell her to stick to her lab, considering their line of work - then I'd find it sexist, if for no other reason then for the simple fact that it would very much clash with her own wishes, aspirations, goals and her sense of duty. Since we know how much respect he has for her, and how much he trusts her abilities, I can't help but see his protectiveness as nothing but a human desire to (feel as if they can) ensure people they love are going to be fine.

                Not to mention, this is Jack we're talking about. We all know how he is about his people, romantic feelings or not.
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                  Synopsis:

                  After the big reveal that Na'onak is in fact Apophis (in his Phantom phase), things start to look down again for SG1 - they'd have escaped if it wasn't for that pesky Goa'uld! (Random aside: Apophis is so totally the evil version of Daniel - he dies almost as much ) Apophis seems rather thrilled to have SG1 in his grasp, and plans to use them as a bargaining chip to get him in with Sokar. So, after some gloating at Teal'c via the communication device he finds on Daniel, Apophis throws SG1 back down into a cell. He then calls them back one by one to torture and interrogate them, using the memory recall device that Sam was wearing combined with a narcotic called the Blood of Sokar that produces highly realistic hallucinations. Sam flashes back to her memory of the day of her mother's funeral, which Apophis uses to try and find out how to get through the Earth's stargate. Jack flashes back to a day shortly before Charlie died, and Apophis tries to find out how SG1 met the Asgard and about the Ancient repository. Daniel imagines talking to Jack, who Apophis uses to try and find out where Sha're's child was taken. And Martouf sees Sam as Jolinar and Apophis demands to know the location of the headquarters of the Tok'ra resistance. Teal'c meanwhile, having heard Apophis's message, flies back to Vorash to tell the Tok'ra, who send a representative back to Netu with Teal'c with a bomb that they will shoot down onto the moon to blow it up and take Sokar's ship out at the same time. Apophis reveals himself to Sokar and is ringed up to the planet, but Sokar sees right through him. Sokar then gets news of the rioting down on Netu and leaves on his ship. Teal'c and Aldwin arrive back, and hear from Sam via the communication device which Daniel managed to steal back from Apophis. However Aldwin arms and sends down the bomb anyway. Sam does a cunning thing with a vent to break them out of their cell, and Teal'c does some super nifty flying to intercept the matter stream to Sokar's ship just as they ring up, and then they speed away just as Netu explodes and duly takes out Sokar's ship. Apophis is left in Sokar's palace, having yet again cheated death.

                  Analysis and implications for S/J:

                  It occurred to me when watching this time round that Apophis seems to have an awful lot of knowledge about SG1's backgrounds. I know the hallucinations come from their own memories (particularly in the case of Sam and Jack), but Apophis's questioning starts off very 'in character' and subtly, which would seem to indicate he knows what's going on in their heads at that point, and the context. But I don't think Apophis should know anything about Sam or Jack's pasts - there's been no instance where he would have found out, surely? So I'm not really quite sure how that works! Maybe someone else has a better idea, or maybe I'm overthinking this when really the flashbacks are there to give us backstory, particularly again for Sam.

                  On the subject of the flashbacks, I do like that in this part we get Sam confronting her own memories - it's a nice counterpart to her having to recall Jolinar's in the first part. As to why she remembers this conversation in particular - I guess it's her concern for Jacob and fear that she's going to lose her only remaining parent that causes her to remember the aftermath of her mother's death. However, before Jacob morphs into Apophis, there are a few nice lines from him that are telling of their relationship and foreshadow conversations to come. Sam accuses Jacob of always considering his work more important than his family, which as we see later (Secrets, Grace) is an attitude Sam really learnt from him, even though it's not what Jacob intended to teach her (cf. Grace and Threads). I really think this is the 'meat' of this episode, as it were, the emotional core is about Sam and her father, and is another stage in the progress of their relationship and Sam's journey away from this attitude which she thinks he has and wants for her, and towards the attitude he actually wants for her - to be happy and fulfilled and loved. I think the development of Sam and Jacob's relationship can in some ways be considered a complementary story to the development of the ship, as well as Sam's development as a character (the embracing all three parts of her personality thing) - Jacob does as much as anyone to show Sam that it's not a weakness to be a woman and to love and accept love. And I think therefore this is why it's this moment that gets referred back to in Threads when Sam tells Jack she "almost lost him four years ago". Sam is not just coming to terms with the remnants of Jolinar in this two-parter, but also with her relationship with her father. After all, this is the first time she sees him since he goes to The Tok'ra, and there wasn't a whole lot of time for building bridges then! It's here, and in the vacation that follows, that that happens, that they finally become close again.

                  This episode seems less shippy to me than the one preceding it, but we do get one nice example of Jack's protectiveness with the way he immediately steps forward when Apophis's lackeys come for Sam. And also a continuation of the way he also demonstrates complete confidence in her even while being protective, because he acquieses when Sam says it's OK. Although I don't think all his groaning and swearing when Daniel's fixing up his wound right afterwards is entirely down to the pain

                  There's also one really lovely piece of framing, when Jack wakes up back in the cell after his Blood of Sokar experience. Sam's face is in shot right behind his shoulder on the other side of the bars the entire time he's speaking. She doesn't say anything - the conversation is between Jack and Daniel - but we are never allowed to forget her reaction and the concern on her face.

                  Otherwise not a lot else for the ship. I do want to comment a bit on Sokar though - I always feel he had a lot of potential as a bad guy but kind of goes out with a whimper in this episode. I mean, seriously, he gets a half-season as the Big Bad. That's nothing! And he was so cool and freaky scary with his veinyness and long spiky fingernails and weirdly immobile hood. But never mind, he got blown up and we got Apophis back for a bit more. Oh well.

                  Oh and Teal'c is awesome in this episode too. We really see the loyalty he has to SG1 - he's separated from them the entire time but he never gives up on them.

                  Favourite lines:

                  I have to pick two, both from Jack.

                  (On Apophis) - "Well this experience doesn't seem to have humbled him much."
                  (On the Blood of Sokar) - "And then they gave me something that reminded me of the seventies."
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                    Originally posted by josiane View Post
                    On the subject of the flashbacks, I do like that in this part we get Sam confronting her own memories - it's a nice counterpart to her having to recall Jolinar's in the first part. As to why she remembers this conversation in particular - I guess it's her concern for Jacob and fear that she's going to lose her only remaining parent that causes her to remember the aftermath of her mother's death.
                    I think Apophis is attacking each of them at one of their weakest points, and I think what he's attacking here is Sam's fear of losing love - losing Jacob like she lost her mother. Because in that event, she lost her mother, and in many ways she almost lost her father - just like she might lose him there. And not simply losing Jacob through death, but the fear I think which is expressed in the last lines you quote below, because I think Sam was always afraid of not measuring up to Jacob's standards and became what she was in many ways to ensure she'd meet his expectations and gain his love - become a part of his world.
                    Originally posted by josiane View Post
                    However, before Jacob morphs into Apophis, there are a few nice lines from him that are telling of their relationship and foreshadow conversations to come. Sam accuses Jacob of always considering his work more important than his family, which as we see later (Secrets, Grace) is an attitude Sam really learnt from him, even though it's not what Jacob intended to teach her (cf. Grace and Threads). I really think this is the 'meat' of this episode, as it were, the emotional core is about Sam and her father, and is another stage in the progress of their relationship and Sam's journey away from this attitude which she thinks he has and wants for her, and towards the attitude he actually wants for her - to be happy and fulfilled and loved. I think the development of Sam and Jacob's relationship can in some ways be considered a complementary story to the development of the ship, as well as Sam's development as a character (the embracing all three parts of her personality thing) - Jacob does as much as anyone to show Sam that it's not a weakness to be a woman and to love and accept love. And I think therefore this is why it's this moment that gets referred back to in Threads when Sam tells Jack she "almost lost him four years ago". Sam is not just coming to terms with the remnants of Jolinar in this two-parter, but also with her relationship with her father. After all, this is the first time she sees him since he goes to The Tok'ra, and there wasn't a whole lot of time for building bridges then! It's here, and in the vacation that follows, that that happens, that they finally become close again.
                    Yes. And yes. You knew I'd agree . And all this ties back to why I think Apophis goes back to this moment - because rather than getting angry at her father, I think what Sam did was decide to do everything she could to make sure she was part of his world and her greatest fear is failing that and losing him that way... which is where her finally discovering in Threads that that's not true and that Jacob really loves and knows HER is so crucial. But it's that event, IMHO, which is the fulcrum for so much of her life and the birth of so many of Sam's issues and insecurities which we see her battle for the next four years. Just as you point out, in many ways TDYK is the beginning of the healing process and her getting to know her father which leads to her finally resolving those same issues later.

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                      Originally posted by josiane View Post
                      This episode seems less shippy to me than the one preceding it, but we do get one nice example of Jack's protectiveness with the way he immediately steps forward when Apophis's lackeys come for Sam. And also a continuation of the way he also demonstrates complete confidence in her even while being protective, because he acquieses when Sam says it's OK. Although I don't think all his groaning and swearing when Daniel's fixing up his wound right afterwards is entirely down to the pain
                      That's probably one of the moments my husband - who is not at all sentimental about the ship but calls it like he sees it - finds most obviously 'shippy' in the entire series. And indicative, really, of the consequences being in love with Sam has on Jack. As he says, "Poor guy. Even when he finally tries to jump in and stand up for her and Be The Man, he's completely useless and gets summarily shot in the leg for his trouble and left rolling around on the floor in pain..."

                      Actually, he sort of makes a reference to the general effect on guys of falling in love, but we won't go there

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                        It occurred to me when watching this time round that Apophis seems to have an awful lot of knowledge about SG1's backgrounds. I know the hallucinations come from their own memories (particularly in the case of Sam and Jack), but Apophis's questioning starts off very 'in character' and subtly, which would seem to indicate he knows what's going on in their heads at that point, and the context. But I don't think Apophis should know anything about Sam or Jack's pasts - there's been no instance where he would have found out, surely? So I'm not really quite sure how that works! Maybe someone else has a better idea, or maybe I'm overthinking this when really the flashbacks are there to give us backstory, particularly again for Sam.

                        I think you're overthinking it!

                        I think the situation is complicated by the fact they are using botht eh Tok'ra recall device and the blood off Sokar. One causes memories to rise to the surface and the other causes hallucinations. I see their visions are a morphing of both processes. So in part they are seeing what actually happend, in another they are hearing Apophis, but because of the hallucinogen, they sort of fill in the blanks - i.e. Dad wouldn't really talk like Apophis and Sam's brain knows that but she hears the words coming from hin so "tanslates" it into Dadspeak.

                        And if that makes any sense, well done to you for deciphering me!


                        There's also one really lovely piece of framing, when Jack wakes up back in the cell after his Blood of Sokar experience. Sam's face is in shot right behind his shoulder on the other side of the bars the entire time he's speaking. She doesn't say anything - the conversation is between Jack and Daniel - but we are never allowed to forget her reaction and the concern on her face.
                        Yes I noticed that moment too. It's very telling and beautifully framed.
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                          Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                          You knew I'd agree . And all this ties back to why I think Apophis goes back to this moment - because rather than getting angry at her father, I think what Sam did was decide to do everything she could to make sure she was part of his world and her greatest fear is failing that and losing him that way... which is where her finally discovering in Threads that that's not true and that Jacob really loves and knows HER is so crucial. But it's that event, IMHO, which is the fulcrum for so much of her life and the birth of so many of Sam's issues and insecurities which we see her battle for the next four years. Just as you point out, in many ways TDYK is the beginning of the healing process and her getting to know her father which leads to her finally resolving those same issues later.
                          I had an inkling But then you and I see Sam's character arc in almost exactly the same terms!

                          Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                          I think you're overthinking it!

                          I think the situation is complicated by the fact they are using botht eh Tok'ra recall device and the blood off Sokar. One causes memories to rise to the surface and the other causes hallucinations. I see their visions are a morphing of both processes. So in part they are seeing what actually happend, in another they are hearing Apophis, but because of the hallucinogen, they sort of fill in the blanks - i.e. Dad wouldn't really talk like Apophis and Sam's brain knows that but she hears the words coming from hin so "tanslates" it into Dadspeak.

                          And if that makes any sense, well done to you for deciphering me!




                          Yes I noticed that moment too. It's very telling and beautifully framed.
                          No, that does make sense It was one of those scenes where it has always made sense to me in the past, but when you're watching it in that heightened state of awareness that you do when you're taking notes for a write-up, it all got a bit confused
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                            Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                            I see this episode as an example of how very non-sexist Jack is. Because what Jack is protecting - essentially - is *Sam* the person, her feelings and needs and emotions. He quite clearly respects and has no concerns for her ability as a military officer,

                            Which he does throughout the entire series, regardless of his own emotional well being.
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                              Originally posted by leiasky View Post
                              Which he does throughout the entire series, regardless of his own emotional well being.
                              And, as I've often argued, that's why he's currently sitting undoubtedly hating his job in a room full of politicians and bureaucrats in DC Because - consistently - the one thing sure to get Jack to stand up, even if it meant getting shot in the leg, was because Sam needed him to.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                                And, as I've often argued, that's why he's currently sitting undoubtedly hating his job in a room full of politicians and bureaucrats in DC Because - consistently - the one thing sure to get Jack to stand up, even if it meant getting shot in the leg, was because Sam needed him to.
                                Well the benefit to working with those arrogant, vapid suits in DC is that he gets to go home and snuggle with Sam.
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