Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[leiasky]

I'm so glad this thread started up again. While I haven't been contributing to the discussion (and really, others say the same thing I'm thinking anyway, so why bother? ), I definitely enjoy reading all the differing opinions. It's fun to read when someone has a view of an episode that I hadn't considered (or noticed) before.

[EvenstarSRV]

Oh, there is no overt Jack vs Martouf rivalry as such - but I do think there is a subtext.

If you go on the basis (as I do) that I think Jack was aware that he cared about Sam a lot more than he should at that point but had buried it to the back of his mind, I do think he subconsciously views Martouf as a rival because Martouf had made his interest in Sam (or rather his fascination with her on learning she carried Jolinar) fairly clear during their previous encounters; he was very touchy-feely with her in The Tok'ra and here in JM too. There are a couple of beats - in the corridor when Martouf takes Sam's hand where Jack looks very uncomfortable, where he looks uncomfortable during the retelling of the memory, and the beat where he stops Martouf from pushing her which all kind of give away Jack isn't comfortable with Marty being too close with Sam.

While I also see Jack at this point aware that he cares about Sam more than he should, I don't quite go to the next step where Jack sees Martouf, or any guy who's interested in Sam, as a rival. I mean, both Jack and Daniel looked uncomfortable when Sam was experiencing those memories, which I took as discomfort at the pain their friend was going through. I felt the Jack didn't like Martouf pushing Sam because it was causing her pain, not that he was too close to her.

However, I don't think Martouf considered Jack a rival at all on any level. He was too preoccupied with his own feelings to consider either Sam's or Jack's, IMO. Here for instance even though he admits that he knows Sam is discomfitted by his previous relationship with Jolinar, he directs her to a memory of him with Jolinar where clearly there was intimacy. He could have directed her to a different memory where Jolinar was happy but not intimate with him. He's just too wrapped up in his previous relationship with Jolinar to really *see* Sam for herself and not what she carries of Jolinar until the events on Netu force him to realise the difference (particularly the scene in TDYK where he is faced with Apophis trying to pass Sam off as Rosha/Jolinar). For me, Martouf isn't so much supportive of *Sam* in JM as he is of *Jolinar's last host*.

I'd agree that initially Martouf seemed to more interested in Sam as Jolinar's last host. However, the memory he directed Sam to, while it was intimate, was one that happened just before Jolinar left on the mission where she got captured by Sokar. It was the best place for Sam to start looking for Jolinar's memories related to Netu, so I felt Martouf picked it for that reason, not that he wanted Sam to experience an intimate memory between him and Jolinar.

I also don't think Sam consciously has Martouf and Jack as love rivals in her head either during the events.

I think she begins to realise with the memory device what of what she feels when she's around Martouf is Jolinar. And I think she starts to work out that the familiarity she feels, the love and caring she feels towards Martouf and what he shows for her is rooted in Jolinar. And I think she begins to understand her own feelings are not the same. She cares about him but she doesn't love him the way Jolinar did, and she begins to realise that he doesn't care/love her the way he does/did Jolinar (and that's what I meant by her realising Martouf's more showy/touchy-feely love/caring for her wasn't so real).

In comparison, as she looks back in retrospect post the mission, I think Sam would recognise Jack's more understated, quiet just *being* there for her (along with Daniel and Teal'c) as being real caring for *her*, for Sam as herself. And I think she would appreciate that even if at that point she doesn't ascribe any romantic connotations to it.

Hope that explains myself a little bit better.

I get what you're saying, but I guess I don't quite see Martouf's concern being just rooted in Jolinar and not at all in Sam in JM. I mean, he apologizes to Sam having to deal with Jolinar's intimate memories with him, which to me suggests he does care about her feelings on the issue. And he came across as quite sympathetic about her concerns about her father.

So while Martouf's caring for Sam is complicated by his feelings for Jolinar, which Jack, Daniel and Teal'c don't have to deal with, I don't see it as any less 'real' than theirs, it's just expressed differently. And as I don't see Sam ascribing romantic connotations to any of their caring/concern, I can't really see her even in retrospect comparing Martouf's and Jack's caring for her. I would think she'd just be appreciative of all of the guys' support for her as they helped her on this mission to save her dad.

[Rachel500]

While I also see Jack at this point aware that he cares about Sam more than he should, I don't quite go to the next step where Jack sees Martouf, or any guy who's interested in Sam, as a rival. I mean, both Jack and Daniel looked uncomfortable when Sam was experiencing those memories, which I took as discomfort at the pain their friend was going through. I felt the Jack didn't like Martouf pushing Sam because it was causing her pain, not that he was too close to her.

Like I said, I think Jack's "rivalry" with Martouf isn't a conscious thing. I don't see him explicitly thinking 'Martouf is a rival.'

But I'm afraid we may have to agree to disagree on this one as I can't agree he doesn't subconsciously place Martouf as a rival.

For me, it's a case of human nature: if you like person X romantically and see them interacting with person Y who has had a previous romantic relationship with X and is holding her hand, refers back to previous intimate occasions, that is going to make you uncomfortable on a whole other level than if you're only friends.

Were both Daniel and Jack uncomfortable with Sam discussing Jolinar's memory of the night with Martouf? Yes. But given I ascribe different feelings towards Sam to them (Daniel has a sisterly affection and deep friendship love, Jack has a romantic attachment and love), those reactions of discomfort are motivated from different places IMO.

Heck, while Jack was under the influence of the Neanderthal virus, he viewed Daniel just as a rival for wanting to check on Sam as a friend. Now while that was an extreme situation prompted by Jack's higher functions going dormant and I'm not suggesting at that point Jack was in love with Sam so much as attracted, I think it demonstrates very nicely the more subconscious reactions that go on under the surface of the human brain in regards to sexual rivalry.

I'd agree that initially Martouf seemed to more interested in Sam as Jolinar's last host. However, the memory he directed Sam to, while it was intimate, was one that happened just before Jolinar left on the mission where she got captured by Sokar. It was the best place for Sam to start looking for Jolinar's memories related to Netu, so I felt Martouf picked it for that reason, not that he wanted Sam to experience an intimate memory between him and Jolinar.

Rationallly, I'm sure that's the justification Martouf made. The memory is one related to the mission, it's a strong memory for Sam to latch on to in regards to Jolinar which would take her away from her own memories...yet I can't help feel that the choice is icky (for the want of a better word).

He really didn't have to start with that memory - he could have chosen another - and yet he doesn't. Again, subconsciously, I think his motivations have more to do with his own feelings about Jolinar (because that's the memory uppermost in his mind) than they are about supporting Sam.

I get what you're saying, but I guess I don't quite see Martouf's concern being just rooted in Jolinar and not at all in Sam in JM. I mean, he apologizes to Sam having to deal with Jolinar's intimate memories with him, which to me suggests he does care about her feelings on the issue. And he came across as quite sympathetic about her concerns about her father.

So while Martouf's caring for Sam is complicated by his feelings for Jolinar, which Jack, Daniel and Teal'c don't have to deal with, I don't see it as any less 'real' than theirs, it's just expressed differently. And as I don't see Sam ascribing romantic connotations to any of their caring/concern, I can't really see her even in retrospect comparing Martouf's and Jack's caring for her. I would think she'd just be appreciative of all of the guys' support for her as they helped her on this mission to save her dad.

I think this is another example where two people can watch the same scene and come away with two very different interpretations.

For me, his acknowledgement that he realises that Sam finds his relationship with Jolinar uncomfortable is one more rooted not so much in being supportive or caring of Sam's feelings but in ensuring Sam didn't do what Jolinar did and suppress the information vital for their mission to succeed because of any feelings she (Jolinar) may have had for him.

I just will always feel that Martouf sees Sam primarily as Jolinar's last host, the last connection he has with the love of his life, his soulmate (and I do have a soft spot for Martouf/Jolinar because I do think the two of them really did love each other and that love is overwhelming and intense, all-consuming), rather than Sam for herself.

I think its telling in D&C when Martouf himself tells Sam explicitly that he has come to care for Sam and 'not only what she carries of Jolinar' - and these two episodes (more TDYK rather than JM) are where for me that separation between Sam and Jolinar occurs for Martouf.

Here in JM, IMO, when he sets out, he's still looking primarily at Sam as Jolinar's host. I will say I think that scene where he acknowledges Sam is discomfitted by his and Jolinar's relationship is the beginning of his making a differentiation (and completed when Apophis tries to pass Sam off as Rosha/Jolinar).

But I also thinks D&C's Martouf statement also gives away that he acknowledges/suspects that Sam's view of his feelings for her are also that he only cares for her because of what she carries of Jolinar, and not for her as a person in her own right. And I just think he had to come to that conclusion either from something Sam says to him offscreen or in viewing their last interaction (which was on this mission). And if so why does he? Because Sam must act or say something which suggests that's the conclusion she's drawn.

[Petra]

While I also see Jack at this point aware that he cares about Sam more than he should, I don't quite go to the next step where Jack sees Martouf, or any guy who's interested in Sam, as a rival. I mean, both Jack and Daniel looked uncomfortable when Sam was experiencing those memories, which I took as discomfort at the pain their friend was going through. I felt the Jack didn't like Martouf pushing Sam because it was causing her pain, not that he was too close to her.

That's also how I see it and therefore I agree completely. I guess Jack was a bit overprotective of Sam because he noticed Jolinar was the first thing on Martouf's mind, not Sam, while he as Sam's CO had a duty to ensure her safety and well-being. I don't see any rivalry between them but I do see Jack being a little peeved at Marty for focusing so much on the mission and Jolinar at the cost of Sam's comfort.

As for Jack and Daniel looking uncomfortable - I always assumed it was because of the implied intimacy Sam remembered. Sam says something like :You stayed the whole night together" and they are both adults, they know what it probably meant. Not a lot of people would be comfortable hearing that their friend has memories of another couple having sex.

I'd agree that initially Martouf seemed to more interested in Sam as Jolinar's last host. However, the memory he directed Sam to, while it was intimate, was one that happened just before Jolinar left on the mission where she got captured by Sokar. It was the best place for Sam to start looking for Jolinar's memories related to Netu, so I felt Martouf picked it for that reason, not that he wanted Sam to experience an intimate memory between him and Jolinar.

See, I don't buy that. He could have directed her to a memory of her getting her assignment. Or telling him about it. Or better yet, the last few minutes before her departure. There was absolutely no reason for him to prompt Sam to remember the whole night. I agree with Rachel; it's definitely a moment when Martouf is so focused on his relationship with Jolinar that he doesn't really see *Sam*. And then there is the "icky factor" already mentioned.

So while Martouf's caring for Sam is complicated by his feelings for Jolinar, which Jack, Daniel and Teal'c don't have to deal with, I don't see it as any less 'real' than theirs, it's just expressed differently. And as I don't see Sam ascribing romantic connotations to any of their caring/concern, I can't really see her even in retrospect comparing Martouf's and Jack's caring for her. I would think she'd just be appreciative of all of the guys' support for her as they helped her on this mission to save her dad.

I agree with the bolded part. I also agree that generally speaking Marty cared for Sam but he had several lapses when temptation of having some connection to Jolinar was too strong for him to resist and he was forcing Sam to focus on their relationship with no concern for what she might feel.

Of course I may be biased because I never liked Martouf. He was too slimy for me, there was something dishonest about him that made me unable to buy him as a good guy. Throughout the show I kept waiting for him to betray SG-1 or the Tok'ra or something and when he died, as a martyr really, I was like: "wow, so he was on the right side the whole time, huh.."

[VSS]

Sam is sent back down to the pit, the denizens riot and they decide, hey, let's escape!

I think I heard the word "denizens" more in this ep than in the entire rest of the series. Did that bug you as much as it bugged me? While it's a cool word, it makes me wonder if someone lost their thesaurus.

Later when they're sleeping, Jack's the first up and the first to tell Martouf to stop and the first to have a chat with Martouf about pushing Carter. In fact, he says to Marty "Look, one, Carter's not going to let you go down there without her and two, I'm not going to let that happen." He's INCREDIBLY protective of her.

He takes Martouf aside (out of earshot of Sam) and has a chat with him at least three times during this episode- twice in the ship and once in the pit. Under the circumstances, that strikes me as excessive concern, bordering on paternalistic. And it illustrates the differences between Jack and Martouf- Martouf is almost like Sam's intellectual side only even more so. While he is sympathetic to Sam's plight he is able to rationalize the things he puts her through, including his suspicion (and later realization) that Jolinar slept with Binar in order to escape. I suspect this is because the Tok'ra have a very long view of things, and their goal of ridding the world of the goa'uld is paramount. Jack, ironically, is clearly more concerned about her emotional well-being, and getting Jacob out of there. And he doesn't see a conflict there- really there isn't one in this particular episode- but Martouf is right. The Tok'ra don't need the regs to put the mission first above their personal feelings.

I wonder if he's struggling with how he's feeling and at the same time, not wanting to do a disservice to her as a woman and a fine officer.

Oh, I'm glad you noticed this. I think Jack really manages to handle this well in this episode. One minute he's chatting with Martouf in private about her safety and the next shot he hands her a sidearm and then walks off to get in a pod. He never really doubts her competency, which is why it seems he's become completely irrational by the time of Zero Hour when he won't even let her lead a routine recon without an entire second team as backup.

Favorite Line:
Daniel wins this one with two:
"No one ever asked her how she escaped from an inescapable prison?!" (I love his disbelief)

Oh, it's the Daniel eyelash flutter that does it. Too funny! I also wanted to mention that scene with Sam on the ship is just lovely, it's really too bad that we don't see more between Sam and Daniel as the series goes on- in fact it's always been a source of disappointment to me that Daniel didn't appear to her when he was ascended. That always felt wrong to me.

Perhaps it's my non-shipper perspective, but I've never gotten a Jack vs. Martouf vibe from this episode and TDYK in regards to Sam.

I must honestly say that I didn't either, until I read what the others had to say about this ep and then went back and watched it. To me, the first half of this ep really highlights it. I don't think Jack likes Martouf in general, but it's more than just overall dislike that's his problem. In the very beginning there's that scene that Rachel mentioned of Jack, Martouf and Sam are walking down the hallway and Martouf stops her, and holds on to her hand. The framing there really jumped out at me- to the viewer, Jack literally comes between them as they're holding hands.

And when he walks back to address Martouf, his eyes flick down at their hands just for a second. That's what convinced me, along with Jack's general overprotectiveness in this episode. (To be honest, I had to go back and check that Martin Wood wasn't the director!). This is why I like Jack as a character and RDA's portrayal of him- as I mentioned a few days back, you really have to watch him, it's just so subtle.

Oh, there is no overt Jack vs Martouf rivalry as such - but I do think there is a subtext.

If you go on the basis (as I do) that I think Jack was aware that he cared about Sam a lot more than he should at that point but had buried it to the back of his mind, I do think he subconsciously views Martouf as a rival because Martouf had made his interest in Sam (or rather his fascination with her on learning she carried Jolinar) fairly clear during their previous encounters; he was very touchy-feely with her in The Tok'ra and here in JM too. There are a couple of beats - in the corridor when Martouf takes Sam's hand where Jack looks very uncomfortable, where he looks uncomfortable during the retelling of the memory, and the beat where he stops Martouf from pushing her which all kind of give away Jack isn't comfortable with Marty being too close with Sam.

<snip>
I also don't think Sam consciously has Martouf and Jack as love rivals in her head either during the events.

This sums up what I think as well. And, as I said, I really never thought much about the Jack vs. Martouf issue ( for me, "rival" seems too strong a word) until now. Last season someone mentioned that TPTB considered a romance arc between Martouf and Sam, and then decided to drop it. I think this was a part of that particular arc. However, I'm in agreement with everyone else that at this point, Sam is starting to be able to separate her feelings from Jolinar's- and I've really never picked up much of a romantic feel from her in terms of Martouf, just genuine friendship, a little like she is with Daniel.

I wonder why Martouf calls her "Samantha". Because he's generally more formal? Or because it is so much more feminine than "Sam"?

I'd agree that initially Martouf seemed to more interested in Sam as Jolinar's last host. However, the memory he directed Sam to, while it was intimate, was one that happened just before Jolinar left on the mission where she got captured by Sokar.

I think so, too. It's a little like trying to recall the alphabet- it's easier to start from the beginning than jump in in the middle.

And as I don't see Sam ascribing romantic connotations to any of their caring/concern, I can't really see her even in retrospect comparing Martouf's and Jack's caring for her. I would think she'd just be appreciative of all of the guys' support for her as they helped her on this mission to save her dad.

Yes, I don't really see Sam making comparisons- partly because I don't really think she ever truly had romantic feelings for Martouf, and partly because at this point she needs all the support she can get from everyone. I really like the way the team pulls together for her in this episode.

In addition, she never really sees what Jack was doing behind the scenes for her in terms of the talks with Martouf. SO in many ways, there's nothing out of the ordinary for her to reflect upon- it's just another example of him doing things that she never knows about. Which isn't really a problem right now, but becomes more of a problem later when she starts basing decisions on his apparent lack of romantic feelings for her.

[es!]

Welcome, Nefer!

And thanks to everybody for this wonderful discussion!

[Nynaeve506]

I think I heard the word "denizens" more in this ep than in the entire rest of the series. Did that bug you as much as it bugged me? While it's a cool word, it makes me wonder if someone lost their thesaurus.

Martouf learned a new word and he was going to use it every chance he got! LOL This would be a great episode to play a drinking game to (1 shot for denizens, 2 shots every time Jack looks at Sam... you'd be drunk by the half hour...)

He takes Martouf aside (out of earshot of Sam) and has a chat with him at least three times during this episode- twice in the ship and once in the pit. Under the circumstances, that strikes me as excessive concern, bordering on paternalistic. And it illustrates the differences between Jack and Martouf- Martouf is almost like Sam's intellectual side only even more so. While he is sympathetic to Sam's plight he is able to rationalize the things he puts her through, including his suspicion (and later realization) that Jolinar slept with Binar in order to escape. I suspect this is because the Tok'ra have a very long view of things, and their goal of ridding the world of the goa'uld is paramount. Jack, ironically, is clearly more concerned about her emotional well-being, and getting Jacob out of there. And he doesn't see a conflict there- really there isn't one in this particular episode- but Martouf is right. The Tok'ra don't need the regs to put the mission first above their personal feelings.

I think it's a different way of thinking entirely. For several millenia fighting the Goa'uld is a way of life. You live on the run, sometimes spend months (maybe even years) embedded in the service of a Goa'uld - whereas our military is a career - you join up, you do a few years of service (or 30 years) and then you retire. You wake up, put on a uniform, but go home at the end of the day. The longest you might spend in a conflict is a few years but it's still this idea that it's something you do in addition to your regular life. So Martouf sees Sam (and has his feelings for Jolinar) but it runs co-current with his mission. Jack sees Sam and he sees two separate people - the soldier and the woman and as much as possible he doesn't want her being a soldier to destroy her as a woman (OH! I just had an idea for my next long fic!!!! SQUEEE). Does that makes sense? I don't know if I'm being clear...

Oh, it's the Daniel eyelash flutter that does it. Too funny! I also wanted to mention that scene with Sam on the ship is just lovely, it's really too bad that we don't see more between Sam and Daniel as the series goes on- in fact it's always been a source of disappointment to me that Daniel didn't appear to her when he was ascended. That always felt wrong to me.

I've always wondered why he didn't appear to her. I mean it's something the writers clearly decided not to do (and they have Sam notice when Teal'c and Jack mention having seen him).

On another note, his two moments in this episode reminded me of how hilarious he becomes in seasons 9 & 10 (I LOVED him in the hostage episode I think that has to be one of my favorite episodes).

Martouf v. Jack spoilered for space

Spoiler:

I must honestly say that I didn't either, until I read what the others had to say about this ep and then went back and watched it. To me, the first half of this ep really highlights it. I don't think Jack likes Martouf in general, but it's more than just overall dislike that's his problem. In the very beginning there's that scene that Rachel mentioned of Jack, Martouf and Sam are walking down the hallway and Martouf stops her, and holds on to her hand. The framing there really jumped out at me- to the viewer, Jack literally comes between them as they're holding hands.

And when he walks back to address Martouf, his eyes flick down at their hands just for a second. That's what convinced me, along with Jack's general overprotectiveness in this episode. (To be honest, I had to go back and check that Martin Wood wasn't the director!). This is why I like Jack as a character and RDA's portrayal of him- as I mentioned a few days back, you really have to watch him, it's just so subtle.

This sums up what I think as well. And, as I said, I really never thought much about the Jack vs. Martouf issue ( for me, "rival" seems too strong a word) until now. Last season someone mentioned that TPTB considered a romance arc between Martouf and Sam, and then decided to drop it. I think this was a part of that particular arc. However, I'm in agreement with everyone else that at this point, Sam is starting to be able to separate her feelings from Jolinar's- and I've really never picked up much of a romantic feel from her in terms of Martouf, just genuine friendship, a little like she is with Daniel.

I don't think it's a versus thing really - I think that Jack isn't particularly fond of Martouf and it makes him uncomfortable to see Martouf presume upon Sam with a certain degree of intimacy. Not that he would ever admit that At least not yet. One of the things that I think supports Sam being able to separate her emotions from Jolinar is her rolling her eyes at the beginning - she has a clear irritation at Martouf. And in the scene where she's recounting Jolinar and Martouf's last night together she's talking about it with an air of sympathy like a third person. I definitely think that the feelings are far more strong on Martouf's end - I also don't think he even picks up that Jack is at all a rival so to speak. Jack also isn't out to get Martouf - he doesn't interrupt or try to stop Marty from interacting with Sam. He just doesn't like it.

[VSS]

I don't think it's a versus thing really - I think that Jack isn't particularly fond of Martouf and it makes him uncomfortable to see Martouf presume upon Sam with a certain degree of intimacy. Not that he would ever admit that At least not yet. One of the things that I think supports Sam being able to separate her emotions from Jolinar is her rolling her eyes at the beginning - she has a clear irritation at Martouf. And in the scene where she's recounting Jolinar and Martouf's last night together she's talking about it with an air of sympathy like a third person. I definitely think that the feelings are far more strong on Martouf's end - I also don't think he even picks up that Jack is at all a rival so to speak. Jack also isn't out to get Martouf - he doesn't interrupt or try to stop Marty from interacting with Sam. He just doesn't like it.

I think this paragraph is a very nice summary of the situation. That part in bold is really something I never picked up before this rewatch, though. I always knew Jack didn't really like Martouf, but it's not just that Marty has no sense of humor and fails to clue Jack in on the details- he doesn't like that "degree of intimacy" Martouf seems to have with Sam, even though it seems a bit one-sided.

[Zoser]

C'mone, he's not that small..

Microscope may be used to inspect large things in minute detail!

[Zoser]

I think I heard the word "denizens" more in this ep than in the entire rest of the series. Did that bug you as much as it bugged me? While it's a cool word, it makes me wonder if someone lost their thesaurus.

He takes Martouf aside...

Jack doesn't like or trust Tok'ra and that goes double for Martouf (I'm with Jack)

Oh, it's the Daniel eyelash flutter that does it. Too funny!

I loved the time he held up his kbar and ask where to put the bullets. I can't remember the episode off hand.

I must honestly say that I didn't either, until I read what the others had to say about this ep and then went back and watched it. To me, the first half of this ep really highlights it. I don't think Jack likes Martouf in general, but it's more than just overall dislike that's his problem. In the very beginning there's that scene that Rachel mentioned of Jack, Martouf and Sam are walking down the hallway and Martouf stops her, and holds on to her hand. The framing there really jumped out at me- to the viewer, Jack literally comes between them as they're holding hands.

[]http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj116/VSS_photos/sg1_312_041JPG-1.jpg[/IMG]

And when he walks back to address Martouf, his eyes flick down at their hands just for a second. That's what convinced me, along with Jack's general overprotectiveness in this episode. (To be honest, I had to go back and check that Martin Wood wasn't the director!). This is why I like Jack as a character and RDA's portrayal of him- as I mentioned a few days back, you really have to watch him, it's just so subtle.

Watching this episode a few weeks ago I noticed that for the first time and had to rewind a few times to be sure. Jack suffers a twinge of jealousy or a supposed ally strong arming his 2IC by subtle means.

In addition, she never really sees what Jack was doing behind the scenes for her in terms of the talks with Martouf. SO in many ways, there's nothing out of the ordinary for her to reflect upon- it's just another example of him doing things that she never knows about. Which isn't really a problem right now, but becomes more of a problem later when she starts basing decisions on his apparent lack of romantic feelings for her.

YES!

So many excellent posts nothing much more to say.

[Aveo_amacus]

I loved the time he held up his kbar and ask where to put the bullets. I can't remember the episode off hand.

the sentinal I believe

Again, the protective urge comes out when they come to get Sam - he doesn't come out and say "not her" but instead works on goading the guards as if to take their attention off of her and make them so pissed at him that they go after him instead (if there are any ill intentions). When she makes the case to go, he let's her go reluctantly, but it's telling that his eyes stay fixed on the iron door even after she's gone. Later when he hears screaming, he flinches... he's worried. I also noticed in the scene when she comes back, he's sitting closest to the door, as though he's waiting for her return.

I have to say that although I agree Jack's worried for Sam, I did originally think that the first reason was because he was scared for her was a more basic concern for what Bynar would do to her as a woman.
That said I do agree that there are clearly other concerns at work as well.
I'm not going to rehash the conversation again, but I agree with various points that many of you have said on the whole romantic feelings of Martouf, Jack and Sam

[josiane]

Wow, excellent discussion everyone! You've all made so many great points, but there's a couple things I wanted to pick up on

While I also see Jack at this point aware that he cares about Sam more than he should, I don't quite go to the next step where Jack sees Martouf, or any guy who's interested in Sam, as a rival. I mean, both Jack and Daniel looked uncomfortable when Sam was experiencing those memories, which I took as discomfort at the pain their friend was going through. I felt the Jack didn't like Martouf pushing Sam because it was causing her pain, not that he was too close to her.

However, IIRC (because I haven't yet watched this back), the camera cuts to Jack significantly more than Daniel while she's remembering, which continues the pattern of emphasizing Jack's reactions to Sam (and Sam's to Jack) over anyone else's. I remember when I was first watching SG1, I used to attribute the frequency of cutaways to Jack more to the fact that RDA's the star, but the exact same thing happens the other way round - we cut to Sam far more than anyone else as a reaction to Jack - so I now think this is yet another very subtle way of planting the shippy seeds, as it were

I must honestly say that I didn't either, until I read what the others had to say about this ep and then went back and watched it. To me, the first half of this ep really highlights it. I don't think Jack likes Martouf in general, but it's more than just overall dislike that's his problem. In the very beginning there's that scene that Rachel mentioned of Jack, Martouf and Sam are walking down the hallway and Martouf stops her, and holds on to her hand. The framing there really jumped out at me- to the viewer, Jack literally comes between them as they're holding hands.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...2_041JPG-1.jpg

And when he walks back to address Martouf, his eyes flick down at their hands just for a second. That's what convinced me, along with Jack's general overprotectiveness in this episode. (To be honest, I had to go back and check that Martin Wood wasn't the director!). This is why I like Jack as a character and RDA's portrayal of him- as I mentioned a few days back, you really have to watch him, it's just so subtle.

I was going to post this pic too, but not for the framing reason. I wanted to use it to point out the body language - see how Sam and Jack's bodies (and note the position of Jack's feet) are angled towards one another? Their heads are looking at Martouf, but their bodies remain closed inwards, towards each other and away from him.

[Cagranosalis]

Hey Guys and Gals!

Longtime lurker coming out of the woodwork. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy this discussion (I really only signed up for this thread). I love the way you people see things I don't ;-) I haven't quite caught up with the whole thread, but I will.

Seeing as I don't have anything important to say at the moment: carry on! Eagerly awaiting new posts.

*Cheers*

Welcome!



I did pretty much the same thing a bit over a year ago.

[Cagranosalis]

I think I heard the word "denizens" more in this ep than in the entire rest of the series. Did that bug you as much as it bugged me? While it's a cool word, it makes me wonder if someone lost their thesaurus.

Yes! That bugged me too.

Oh, it's the Daniel eyelash flutter that does it. Too funny! I also wanted to mention that scene with Sam on the ship is just lovely, it's really too bad that we don't see more between Sam and Daniel as the series goes on- in fact it's always been a source of disappointment to me that Daniel didn't appear to her when he was ascended. That always felt wrong to me.

Yes, actually I agree with that last bit, especially becaus eof the way Jack (and later) Teal'c shut her down when she tries to talk about her feelings about Daniel's "death".

I must honestly say that I didn't either, until I read what the others had to say about this ep and then went back and watched it. To me, the first half of this ep really highlights it. I don't think Jack likes Martouf in general, but it's more than just overall dislike that's his problem. In the very beginning there's that scene that Rachel mentioned of Jack, Martouf and Sam are walking down the hallway and Martouf stops her, and holds on to her hand. The framing there really jumped out at me- to the viewer, Jack literally comes between them as they're holding hands.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...2_041JPG-1.jpg

And when he walks back to address Martouf, his eyes flick down at their hands just for a second. That's what convinced me, along with Jack's general overprotectiveness in this episode. (To be honest, I had to go back and check that Martin Wood wasn't the director!). This is why I like Jack as a character and RDA's portrayal of him- as I mentioned a few days back, you really have to watch him, it's just so subtle.

Oh nice catch both of you! I had to chuckle about the bolded. Yes he does have a way of catching those moments.

On RDA's acting (again since you mention it) I have recently been looking through some of his earlier work the last few weeks (leant to me by Jumble) and, while he may not have been so subtle in all of them, anyone who watches them and then says he's a mediocre actor is a bit barking IMO!




Umm, I did MQ a few others but they seem to have got lost and I can't be doing with going back over again.
Needless to say I have bee loving the discussion it generated, and kudos too to Shannon for another fab review.

[Rogue]

When did they change the thread name? Guess I have been gone too long. Should have renamed it Sam O'Neill/Jack O'Neill Ship Thread.