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    Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
    But I'm sure we can agree to disagree
    Well I was going to suggest a fight to the death, but your way is probably better (and less messy) LOL

    Besides we both have fics we're working on and how mad would everyone be if one of us died without finishing!

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      Learning Curve is one of my favorites.

      Daniel get some first hand discoveries about the source of the Orbanians culture. Here is my first gripe - if the source of their culture is MesoAmerican why the blue eyed blonds?

      Sam learns about the Naquada reactor from a child, who in turn learns from Sam that discovering things for yourself can be satisfying. I think Sam learns a little about Jack, too.

      Dr Fraiser learns all nanites are not evil (Jack might not agree).

      The Orbanians learn all that Merrin has learned.

      And Jack and Teal'c, both fathers, have encounters with children. Both men have been separated from their own children by circumstance and react to protect these children they meet. Teal'c because he is still on Orban has few options while Jack reacts as I would expect. He risks everything to save a child who doesn't want saving. He has seen his own child die in his arm and cannot begin to understand a culture that sacrifices their children. He gives her what he can and them accesses to her wishes and returns her to her fate. When he tell Gen. Hammond "If you want to punish me ... go ahead." it is reminicent of him telling Nirti she can do with him what she wants if she will only save Carter. He has done what he can to save this child and anything they do to him is worth it. It's Jack need for redemption.
      I'm not sure that Jack realizes the change in the Orbanian society he has effected by his excursion with Merrin.

      As for shippyness:
      I think the smile is for the drawing of Sam as well as Merrin 'getting it'
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        Banner by Regularamanda

        Synopsis:

        An alternate Sam Carter and Kawalsky come through the quantum mirror at Area 51, fleeing their world which is being destroyed by Apophis. They are brought to the SGC, and request asylum in our world, which is swiftly granted. When Jack goes to tell AU Sam, he discovers that she was married to his alternate self back in her reality. Not long after, AU Sam experiences a convulsion, which she and our Sam diagnose as entropic cascade failure, caused by there being two Sams in the one reality, and means she will inevitably die if she does not return to her own reality. SG1 and Kawalsky therefore hatch a plan to save Earth in the alternate reality by enabling AU Sam to contact the Asgard, and all of them (except for our Sam) go through the quantum mirror to do so. The plan goes off with a few hitches, as to be expected - Jack orders Daniel to switch the mirror off, which loses the setting to our reality so Daniel has to find it again; Teal'c kills his alternate self; Daniel, Jack and Kawalsky get captured; and AU Hammond gets zatted twice. However Sam does manage to get through the gate and meet the Asgard, who turn up in their big shiny spaceship, beam Apophis and the Jaffa away, and restore AU Hammond to life. Daniel and Teal'c then return to our reality, leaving Jack to say goodbye to AU Sam before he too steps through the mirror, leaving her alone.

        Analysis:

        This is one of my favourites, and is the episode that really turned me into a shipper in terms of feeling the emotional pull of Jack and Sam's relationship. The concept that was introduced in There But For the Grace of God, that an AU Sam and Jack where Sam never joined the Air Force would be in a relationship gets explored more fully, and with more of an impact on our Sam and Jack as they are forced to see it themselves (as opposed to just hearing Daniel mention it). It is also of course over a year later, and as we have been discussing for the last few episodes, have become really quite close by this point. I think therefore that this is the first major turning point in their relationship and I'll be interested as we watch the next several episodes whether there is any change in their behaviour towards one another - an easing back of that closeness perhaps? Anyway, I noted various things to talk about, so...:

        The S/J Theme: This is the episode where we get the theme for the first time, and it plays really strikingly on five occasions. Firstly right at the beginning, when Jack sees AU Sam for the first time and she says "It's not the same with us here, is it?; secondly when AU Sam goes into the VIP room and pulls out the wedding photo; the third and fourth times when she and Jack are talking, firstly when she says "But you don't even see her that way, do you?" and secondly when Jack says "c'mere" for the first time and pulls her into the hug; and the fifth and final time is right at the end when they say goodbye. It therefore plays mostly not just for AU Sam's grief, but also at the points when the contrast with our Sam and Jack is highlighted, which is interesting for the use of the theme in the future. As I think APA pointed out, the S/J theme is really the S/J angst theme - it plays whenever they are confronted with the fact that they can't be together, on every occasion except the kiss in Moebius, when it's in the major key with full swelling orchestra. But even then it's an AU

        Framing and seating arrangements: I noticed in this episode that there is hardly any framing of Jack and our Sam, and they sit opposite each other at both briefings. However there is quite a bit of framing of Jack and AU Sam, and it is AU Sam that sits next to Jack here. This of course culminates in the final scene where our Sam is separated from Jack and AU Sam by the quantum mirror. We do still get all the cutaway reaction shots to Jack, but here in response to AU Sam, not our Sam.

        Hints of things to come/future call-backs: Watching this in retrospect there's all sorts of little shippy hints and things which bring to mind things that happen in later episodes, almost like clues for our Sam and Jack's future relationship which we can now pick up on:
        - AU Sam's use of 'for crying out loud' in the video, obviously designed here to show that she's with Jack, is very similar to our Sam's use of 'you couldn't give a rat's a$$' in Continuum, and other Jackisms we get throughout S9&10.
        - This is the first time we see Jack hug Sam (albeit AU Sam) in the way we will later see him do so when she is in need of comfort, with the "c'mere" and the gently enveloping her in his arms. It's the second time we see them hug (or third, for the eagle-eyed who've spotted the one at the end of The Serpent's Lair ), but the first time that it's done so consciously - Fire & Water was much more a reaction than a decision on Jack's part.
        - All the lines about AU Sam's hair really make me smile now our Sam has long hair too Because it kind of seems to symbolise our Sam's acceptance of an alternative life she could have had, which of course Jack is a big part of. And now she is with Jack in her reality too, she has long hair as well
        - I have to fangurl AT's portrayal of the two Sams, and in particular the way they relate to Jack. AU Sam is so open in the way she looks at him - especially (and calling forward again) the way she seems to be drinking him in with her eyes both when she first sees him and when she comes into the briefing room and sits down next to him, very much like our Sam does when she meets AU Jack in Continuum. The way she smiles openly at Jack after his crack about Roswell grey aliens too is a lovely extension of the way our Sam reacts to Jack in similar situations - only our Sam tends to duck her head to hide the smile because she knows she shouldn't really find him as amusing as she does.
        - AU Sam tells Jack that "You don't have to say anything", which is very telling. Because Jack and Sam never do need words, and Jack never does need to say anything at any of the points when he basically tells Sam how he feels, such as in Divide & Conquer/Upgrades and Threads.
        - Similarly, Jack's humourous deflection right at the end ("Which brings to mind an obvious question, how could you marry such a loser?") is both so very him and also hints at one of the central difficulties that holds our Sam and Jack apart (aside from obviously the chain of command/regs thing ) - Jack genuinely doesn't think he's good enough for Sam. She's the 'national treasure', while he's the old soldier with a closet full of skeletons, and I think he really struggles with the idea that she might actually love him. - AU Sam is much more openly affectionate - she kisses both AU Hammond and Teal'c on the cheek. Partly this is her not having the military background, but I think is also interesting in the context of the way our Sam is much more openly affectionate and touchy-feely with people from S9 onwards, which many shippers (including me!) think is down to her finally being fulfilled and at ease with herself and her 'woman' aspect with her relationship with Jack.
        - I love Kawalsky's line to Jack - "You two look pretty good together". Nice little wink to the audience, because of course they do! Jack's reaction to this line of questioning is significant too I think - he doesn't deny but automatically hides behind the regs, in just the same way as we will see him do later on when questioned, such as in Entity.
        - I also love Jack's expression of pride in Sam which is revealed in his joke to Hammond after they get the news that AU Sam and Kawalsky can stay - "The combined IQ of Earth might go up a few points with two Carters around". Following on from Learning Curve I think this is a nice thing to see - Jack is very definitely proud of Sam's intelligence, and we see this continue right up to the national treasure comment and (spoilers for SGU)
        Spoiler:
        the comment about Carter saving him plenty of times with science to Young in Earth.


        continued...
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          continued...

          AU Sam and Jack: The scene in the VIP room is one of my favourite scenes of one of my favourite episodes. It is just so very very well played by both AT and RDA - you can feel the awkwardness radiating from the screen, particularly from Jack. And look at the body language as they're sitting on the bed, the gap between them, the hands clasped between the knees, all scream uncertainty and not really wanting to be there, but he still stays, and AU Sam still asks him. You can see he's really affected by seeing her so upset, and struggling with the fact that it's Sam but not Sam. I always wonder about Jack's lack of reaction to the 'you don't even see her that way' line - I can never make up my mind whether he doesn't respond because he does or because he's never let himself think about it. Because obviously he is attracted to her - that's been clear since CotG, but I think he has been very successful at not noticing his own attraction. This same lack of response comes of course when Kawalsky starts asking him about his relationship with our Sam, there combined with the knee-jerk reaction of hiding behind the regs. And he does kiss her back at the end, and seems almost as regretful as her that he isn't her Jack (or that she isn't his Sam) when she says 'I just wish...'.

          Our Sam and Jack: Seeing AU Sam really has quite an effect on both of them, starting with their reaction to AU Sam on the video and the FCOL. The biggest scene for this though is right after the scene in the VIP room, when Jack comes out from comforting AU Sam and runs right into our Sam. You can see he's very unsettled by his encounter with AU Sam, and his concern for her spills over into letting him reveal far more concern for our Sam than he ever usually lets her see. His offer to listen to her talk about her feelings is completely genuine, and the unusualness of it throws her. He then seems very concerned to keep the truth about her counterpart being married to his counterpart from her - preventing her going into the room to talk to AU Sam herself, and then later wincing when Kawalsky lets the cat out of the bag. Whether this is out of his own awkwardness with the situation, or a desire to protect her from being hit with the full implications of it, or wanting not to acknowledge the elephant in the room, I'm not sure. I'd tend to go with a mix of all three. However he seems to forget about all this when he lets AU Sam kiss him goodbye right at the end (and he must have known that or something similar was coming when he sent Daniel and Teal'c back and stayed behind on his own) - did he not realise our Sam was right there on the other side of the mirror? I'm assuming he was, because he doesn't seem self-conscious about it, so I'm imagining he just hasn't made the connection that they aren't actually alone. And it's really in contrast to the way he has been behaving the whole way through the episode, which is very striking. He is unusually subdued throughout, lots of pauses in his speech and much quieter than usual, showing how affected he is by this whole thing. Anyway, our Sam's look when Jack and AU Sam kiss is very telling - and there's two looks really. There's the cutaway to her while they are kissing, which is an incredible mixture of embarrassment and hurt, and then there's the little look up at Jack as he arrives back through the mirror, which is apprehensive and considering and accusing and hurt and surprised all at once.

          Other things:

          - AU Sam's reaction to our Sam being in the military is really quite anti the idea, which makes me wonder what her relationship with Jacob is like.
          - I love Teal'c's hardline attitude to his own alternate self, but even more than that I adore his reaction to Apophis's question, "Why do you betray me?" - just that little quirk of the eyebrow
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            I'll admit upfront that unlike many shippers, I'm pretty neutral on this episode, but it did grow on me a little this time around. I think's it's because I don't really like AU Sam at all. I suppose the writers wanted to differentiate between the two Sams but they made her rather... catty would be the nice term, but not my first choice.
            Originally posted by josiane View Post
            It is also of course over a year later, and as we have been discussing for the last few episodes, have become really quite close by this point. I think therefore that this is the first major turning point in their relationship and I'll be interested as we watch the next several episodes whether there is any change in their behaviour towards one another - an easing back of that closeness perhaps?
            In general I think they're both still pretty clueless by the end of this episode- we the viewers can see what's happening but I don't think they do. That's what I love about this ship- it's not forced. It evolves, even against the odds. Of course, in the AUs it happens very quickly which is another interesting thing- the timing in this AU is the same as TbftGoG, where two years ago they were engaged. Here, AU Jack and AU Sam have been married for a year.

            The S/J Theme: This is the episode where we get the theme for the first time, and it plays really strikingly on five occasions. Firstly right at the beginning, when Jack sees AU Sam for the first time and she says "It's not the same with us here, is it?; secondly when AU Sam goes into the VIP room and pulls out the wedding photo; the third and fourth times when she and Jack are talking, firstly when she says "But you don't even see her that way, do you?" and secondly when Jack says "c'mere" for the first time and pulls her into the hug; and the fifth and final time is right at the end when they say goodbye. It therefore plays mostly not just for AU Sam's grief, but also at the points when the contrast with our Sam and Jack is highlighted, which is interesting for the use of the theme in the future. As I think APA pointed out, the S/J theme is really the S/J angst theme - it plays whenever they are confronted with the fact that they can't be together, on every occasion except the kiss in Moebius, when it's in the major key with full swelling orchestra. But even then it's an AU
            But- there's another time, a sixth time that I never noticed before this rewatch. It's when AU Sam is saying goodbye to our Sam, it's clear as can be but since Jack's not there I never noticed it before. And I've got to think that really seals APA's theory about this being all about the angst- our Sam saying goodbye to a part of herself- someone she'll never be with a man she can't have- until Threads (when this song is no where to be found).

            It's very interesting to me how Jack handles all of this. Clearly, he's uncomfortable with the situation, but warms up to it pretty darn fast, IMHO. Had AU Sam been someone else, I'm not sure he would have been willing to be so helpful in terms of substituting for AU Jack. I think he's less likely to comfort a damsel in distress than, for instance, Daniel is. And except for Sara I can't really recall him ever doing it before (willingly, that is). But he doesn't seem to have much resistance To AU Sam when he really should be treating her with a great deal more suspicion.
            - AU Sam tells Jack that "You don't have to say anything", which is very telling. Because Jack and Sam never do need words, and Jack never does need to say anything at any of the points when he basically tells Sam how he feels, such as in Divide & Conquer/Upgrades and Threads.
            She also says, "I know you well enough to know you don't have a clue what to say," and that's the down side of his not talking- when they really do need words but can't say them.
            - Similarly, Jack's humourous deflection right at the end ("Which brings to mind an obvious question, how could you marry such a loser?") is both so very him and also hints at one of the central difficulties that holds our Sam and Jack apart (aside from obviously the chain of command/regs thing ) - Jack genuinely doesn't think he's good enough for Sam. She's the 'national treasure', while he's the old soldier with a closet full of skeletons, and I think he really struggles with the idea that she might actually love him.
            I'm not totally sold on the concept that he doesn't think he's good enough for her (although you almost have me convinced!), but I do think he believes he's not right for her and I think he idealizes her in some ways.
            - I love Kawalsky's line to Jack - "You two look pretty good together". Nice little wink to the audience, because of course they do! Jack's reaction to this line of questioning is significant too I think - he doesn't deny but automatically hides behind the regs, in just the same way as we will see him do later on when questioned, such as in Entity.
            And when questioned by the Tok'ra babe, and Kerry, and (as you pointed out) in this ep when he never answers AU Sam's question: "You don't look at her that way, do you?" He won't lie, but it's too hard to face the truth. At this point, he doesn't really know what to think, but later on he does. It's Jack's non-answer answer.

            Originally posted by josiane View Post
            continued...

            AU Sam and Jack: And he does kiss her back at the end, and seems almost as regretful as her that he isn't her Jack (or that she isn't his Sam) when she says 'I just wish...'.
            And he says, "Yeah..."

            I never heard that before this rewatch, either. Almost squee-worthy.

            I don't really like that scene at the end. It's obvious Sam is very uncomfortable. I don't think she's hurt- for one thing, throughout the ep she doesn't seem to be at all concerned about the amount of attention Jack is giving AU Sam. And when he offers to talk with her (a truly amazing event in and of itself) she doesn't take him up on it. But I think she is embarrassed and very confused.


            My favorite quote:
            "So it's possible there's an alternate version of myself who actually understands what the hell you're talking about?"

            Oh, and guess who co-wrote this episode?
            Brad Wright.
            Last edited by VSS; 13 November 2009, 04:37 PM.

            Comment


              VSS - while I wouldn't consider myself neutral, I don't consider this one of my favorite shippy eps. I watch it when I need something uber-shippy, kinda fluffy, kinda angsty, and I need a kiss LOL. Yes, I'm SO angsty PoV actually looks semi-fluffy to me. How bad is that???

              I too am not entirely sold on Jack not thinking he's good enough. This is how I imagine it - if the regs weren't in place, he might have pursued her, however, if she turned him down he'd probably chalk it up to being an old soldier, but if she jumped for it, heck, he's going to take what he can get and he sure as heck ain't gonna turn down a hot blond!

              One of my favorite scenes, believe it or not, is the conference room scene where Kawalsky let's out the marriage bit. Jack's subdued tone and Sam's utter shock are played so well by RDA and AT. It's just too perfect

              Question: Did anyone catch if Bizarro George Hammond was a General or Colonel? To be honest, my one critique of TBFTGOG was that I just don't see Jack as being General of the SGC so early. I was toying with the idea of writing an AU fanfic in that world (yes yes, I know it's been done ad naseum right? But *I* want to do it...LoL) - but I'd rather make it more like our universe than the one from TBFTGOG...

              Comment


                Firstly, just want to say to everyone whe does the 'official' kick-off review posts, that you're all doing a fabulous job! If only I could green you all but alas apparently I'm locked out for some of you...

                Anyways, POV...

                I've had an up and down relationship with POV. When I first watched it, I was thrilled. As a shipper, getting to see any kind of exploration of Sam/Jack so blatantly part of an episode's storyline was great. But on rewatching in the past few years, I'm much more aware of the fact that the interaction is mostly between Jack and AU Sam, and that our Sam is forced (literally) to watch from the sidelines most of the episode. So while it's still a favourite - still makes my top ten - but I don't have that same initial glee about seeing Jack getting to kiss Sam because it's not our Sam and Jack. (Although admittedly this lack of glee may also be down to the continued lack of our Sam and Jack kissing in future episodes without it being AU/Alternate timelines/dreams).

                Our Sam & Jack/Implications

                For me, this is the episode that forces both of them into consciously considering the possibility that they could be together if not for the military ranks.

                Jack - I do think Jack has worked out his own feelings for his Sam a while back; he's attracted to her, likes her a lot, cares about her more than he should but that's OK because as nothing can happen because of the regs, she's unlikely to feel the same way and he doesn't need to deal with it, and as someone put it a few posts back he effectively mentally files it away and doesn't really dwell on it. For me, the whole thing with Sam at this point sits in a box in his head with 'danger, go no further, regs!' scrawled across the top. (And interestingly whenever the possibility is raised of him and Sam being together such as in Politics when Daniel informs them of the engagement and here when Kawalsky mentions they look good together, Jack's immediate response is always the regs - which also to my mind indicates he has thought about it enough to slap a label on why it can't happen).

                Here he's effectively faced with a reality of what could happen if his feelings for Sam came out of the box - if they hadn't needed to go into the box in the first place. And I think for the most part he's bewildered because AU Sam relates to him without the subconscious barriers his Sam has in place with him. AU Sam knows him but more she needs him and shows it whereas his Sam even if she does need him will never admit to it because of the military ranks, because it's not appropriate, because she (and he) both invoke that invisible distance in terms of emotional confidences to maintain the illusion/self-delusion they're not over the line with their feelings already. (This is fantastically shown in the contrasting scene with Sam where he tries to relate to her as he has just done with AU Sam in terms of offering blatant comfort and his Sam deflects him).

                For me he doesn't tell his Sam because of the reason why he's dumped the whole thing in a box in his head in the first place: why deal with it if he doesn't have to? So long as his Sam is unaware of the relationship, they don't have to discuss it, don't have to make reference to it, it's easier if she doesn't know. So when it comes out, Jack acts like he's been caught with his hand in the cookie jar because I think deep down he knows he should have told his Sam and given her some warning. What is interesting is that he does immediately ignore the whole thing with his Sam again and trusts their military relationship will force her into following his lead and ignoring it too.

                I do think, as Josi, the joking 'loser' remark does give away some of Jack's own deeper partly subconscious reasons about why beyond the regs he believes it wouldn't happen between him and his Sam; that he's not good enough of her on some level and he thinks she could do better. (But I do also think that what the AUs show is that if Sam really showed that she wanted him, Jack may not get *why* she wants him but he'd be happy to be with her).

                For me, Jack forgets that his universe can see through the mirror at the end - because he sends his Daniel and Teal'c back for what is evidently supposed to be a private goodbye. And I think the kiss is more curiosity on his part mixed with a dash of being there for AU Sam. But I think the kiss is bittersweet for both of them - he's not her Jack but equally she's not his Sam - she's not the Sam he wants to be kissing.

                Sam - I do feel for Sam here but there is a great kind of reveal with her. She's confronted in the beginning with the difference in *working* choices between her and her double, and that's the first thing she really focuses on: her double never joined the military but Sam can't imagine not. And its interesting that the consequence of not joining is raised as one of the reasons why the AU is invaded and our universe is saved. From Sam's perspective although she doesn't come and out blatantly say so (her AU Sam does that on her behalf), she does place an importance on her being military as being a factor in keeping the world safe (which may explain why later she's so reluctant at looking at changing her military situation to be with Jack because perhaps this importance has seeped into her subconscious).

                But next she's faced with the difference in her personal choices. AU Sam is married to Jack; she has a life as a woman beyond her work. Sam by comparison has nothing. But she barely gets time to process the news - she has to focus on the mission and so buries it to get the energy device working. And is only faced with it again after the universe is saved when she witnesses the kiss between her Jack and AU Sam.

                I do think she is hurt a little because I do think Sam is aware of her own attraction to him at least and it's never a comfortable thing watching a man you're attracted to yourself kiss someone else; but then that hurt is swamped by confusion because its not just someone else but an AU version of her he's kissing (indicating that he evidently is also attracted but also likes her enough to offer that type of comfort), and there is also embarrassment because heck he's doing it in front of everyone!

                After the events of POV, I do think Sam starts to think more about her relationship with Jack and the possibilities, leading her to her eventual realisation in A Hundred Days that she loves him. While I think Jack sticks everything back in the box with the anticipation that he won't have to deal with it again.

                ---

                See, for me, POV actually provides a high level outline of the story of our Sam and Jack that emerges from the whole series.

                Sam begins oblivious and focused on her career; Jack knows there's more there but hides behind the regs and tries to ignore the whole thing.

                They get confronted by the truth but both ignore it in order to focus on the mission. When Jack is pressed, he states the regs as the reason for him and Sam not being together.

                The mission is a success and they save the universe. Sam is forced to face the truth again, and they finally kiss.
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                  Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                  Question: Did anyone catch if Bizarro George Hammond was a General or Colonel? To be honest, my one critique of TBFTGOG was that I just don't see Jack as being General of the SGC so early. I was toying with the idea of writing an AU fanfic in that world (yes yes, I know it's been done ad naseum right? But *I* want to do it...LoL) - but I'd rather make it more like our universe than the one from TBFTGOG...
                  He's a General I think in POV.

                  I think in TBFTGOG Jack remained military between the first Abydos mission and Apophis coming to Earth in search of a host for Ammonet. And I tend to think maybe George in TBFTGOG wasn't so lucky and had his record smirched by a certain letting some prisoners escape back in 1969.
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                    Originally posted by VSS View Post
                    I'll admit upfront that unlike many shippers, I'm pretty neutral on this episode, but it did grow on me a little this time around. I think's it's because I don't really like AU Sam at all. I suppose the writers wanted to differentiate between the two Sams but they made her rather... catty would be the nice term, but not my first choice. In general I think they're both still pretty clueless by the end of this episode- we the viewers can see what's happening but I don't think they do. That's what I love about this ship- it's not forced. It evolves, even against the odds. Of course, in the AUs it happens very quickly which is another interesting thing- the timing in this AU is the same as TbftGoG, where two years ago they were engaged. Here, AU Jack and AU Sam have been married for a year.
                    That is an interesting point, and I think is supposed to make us think that it's just the military keeping them apart. But I think that it's them too, with the not talking and the emotional insecurities, and so it doesn't really ring true. But then since the purpose of the AUs, narratively, is to show us what could be, they kind of have to gloss over it. And I'm sure there's plenty AUs out there where Sam and Jack take every bit as long as ours do, just they're not the ones in need of help. Because I also very much like your theory, VSS, that there's a change happens at the end of S8 in the AUs - before then, Sam and Jack get together = the world ends/bad things happen. After then, Sam and Jack don't get together = the world ends/bad things happen. Proving that it's our Sam and Jack that got it right all along


                    But- there's another time, a sixth time that I never noticed before this rewatch. It's when AU Sam is saying goodbye to our Sam, it's clear as can be but since Jack's not there I never noticed it before. And I've got to think that really seals APA's theory about this being all about the angst- our Sam saying goodbye to a part of herself- someone she'll never be with a man she can't have- until Threads (when this song is no where to be found).
                    Oh excellent catch, and excellent point!

                    It's very interesting to me how Jack handles all of this. Clearly, he's uncomfortable with the situation, but warms up to it pretty darn fast, IMHO. Had AU Sam been someone else, I'm not sure he would have been willing to be so helpful in terms of substituting for AU Jack. I think he's less likely to comfort a damsel in distress than, for instance, Daniel is. And except for Sara I can't really recall him ever doing it before (willingly, that is). But he doesn't seem to have much resistance To AU Sam when he really should be treating her with a great deal more suspicion.
                    I think you're exactly right here too, and in my mind it is entirely consistent with the way Sam is the only person who can get him to do things he doesn't want to, just by looking at him and saying please. He can't say no to her because she's Sam, regardless of reality.

                    She also says, "I know you well enough to know you don't have a clue what to say," and that's the down side of his not talking- when they really do need words but can't say them.
                    Well yes indeed!

                    I'm not totally sold on the concept that he doesn't think he's good enough for her (although you almost have me convinced!), but I do think he believes he's not right for her and I think he idealizes her in some ways.
                    That too. I guess I kind of conflate the two and have him thinking that he's not right for her and therefore she deserves more. And I always think the way Jack post Threads really seems like the cat who got the cream adds credence to this too

                    And when questioned by the Tok'ra babe, and Kerry, and (as you pointed out) in this ep when he never answers AU Sam's question: "You don't look at her that way, do you?" He won't lie, but it's too hard to face the truth. At this point, he doesn't really know what to think, but later on he does. It's Jack's non-answer answer.
                    *nods*


                    And he says, "Yeah..."

                    I never heard that before this rewatch, either. Almost squee-worthy.
                    Yeah It's soft, but it's very much there, and I don't think it's just to sympathise with her - I think he's feeling quite regretful at this point too.

                    I don't really like that scene at the end. It's obvious Sam is very uncomfortable. I don't think she's hurt- for one thing, throughout the ep she doesn't seem to be at all concerned about the amount of attention Jack is giving AU Sam. And when he offers to talk with her (a truly amazing event in and of itself) she doesn't take him up on it. But I think she is embarrassed and very confused.
                    I agree she doesn't show any signs of hurt or jealousy throughout most of the episode, but then again she hasn't really seen AU Sam and our Jack together together. He's been giving her attention, sure, but that's different from kissing her - the scene she witnesses on the other side of the mirror is very intimate. I think seeing them kiss stirred quite a lot of emotions, including jealousy (because after all, that Sam is kind of her, or a her she could have been - as in your point above about the sixth time the theme plays).


                    Oh, and guess who co-wrote this episode?
                    Brad Wright.
                    Yep Excellent

                    Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                    One of my favorite scenes, believe it or not, is the conference room scene where Kawalsky let's out the marriage bit. Jack's subdued tone and Sam's utter shock are played so well by RDA and AT. It's just too perfect
                    I just adore and completely fangurl both RDA and AT's acting throughout this episode - they convey so very much by their tones of voice and body language and what they don't say. Which of course is exactly how they manage to tell each other they love each other (and us) for so many years.

                    Question: Did anyone catch if Bizarro George Hammond was a General or Colonel? To be honest, my one critique of TBFTGOG was that I just don't see Jack as being General of the SGC so early. I was toying with the idea of writing an AU fanfic in that world (yes yes, I know it's been done ad naseum right? But *I* want to do it...LoL) - but I'd rather make it more like our universe than the one from TBFTGOG...
                    I didn't notice them say specifically, but I don't think AU Hammond looked taken aback when Teal'c called him General Hammond, so I'm thinking it's the same. Because yeah, I don't buy the changes of rank in TBFTGOG either
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                      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                      Spoiler:
                      Firstly, just want to say to everyone whe does the 'official' kick-off review posts, that you're all doing a fabulous job! If only I could green you all but alas apparently I'm locked out for some of you...

                      Anyways, POV...

                      I've had an up and down relationship with POV. When I first watched it, I was thrilled. As a shipper, getting to see any kind of exploration of Sam/Jack so blatantly part of an episode's storyline was great. But on rewatching in the past few years, I'm much more aware of the fact that the interaction is mostly between Jack and AU Sam, and that our Sam is forced (literally) to watch from the sidelines most of the episode. So while it's still a favourite - still makes my top ten - but I don't have that same initial glee about seeing Jack getting to kiss Sam because it's not our Sam and Jack. (Although admittedly this lack of glee may also be down to the continued lack of our Sam and Jack kissing in future episodes without it being AU/Alternate timelines/dreams).

                      Our Sam & Jack/Implications

                      For me, this is the episode that forces both of them into consciously considering the possibility that they could be together if not for the military ranks.

                      Jack - I do think Jack has worked out his own feelings for his Sam a while back; he's attracted to her, likes her a lot, cares about her more than he should but that's OK because as nothing can happen because of the regs, she's unlikely to feel the same way and he doesn't need to deal with it, and as someone put it a few posts back he effectively mentally files it away and doesn't really dwell on it. For me, the whole thing with Sam at this point sits in a box in his head with 'danger, go no further, regs!' scrawled across the top. (And interestingly whenever the possibility is raised of him and Sam being together such as in Politics when Daniel informs them of the engagement and here when Kawalsky mentions they look good together, Jack's immediate response is always the regs - which also to my mind indicates he has thought about it enough to slap a label on why it can't happen).

                      Here he's effectively faced with a reality of what could happen if his feelings for Sam came out of the box - if they hadn't needed to go into the box in the first place. And I think for the most part he's bewildered because AU Sam relates to him without the subconscious barriers his Sam has in place with him. AU Sam knows him but more she needs him and shows it whereas his Sam even if she does need him will never admit to it because of the military ranks, because it's not appropriate, because she (and he) both invoke that invisible distance in terms of emotional confidences to maintain the illusion/self-delusion they're not over the line with their feelings already. (This is fantastically shown in the contrasting scene with Sam where he tries to relate to her as he has just done with AU Sam in terms of offering blatant comfort and his Sam deflects him).

                      For me he doesn't tell his Sam because of the reason why he's dumped the whole thing in a box in his head in the first place: why deal with it if he doesn't have to? So long as his Sam is unaware of the relationship, they don't have to discuss it, don't have to make reference to it, it's easier if she doesn't know. So when it comes out, Jack acts like he's been caught with his hand in the cookie jar because I think deep down he knows he should have told his Sam and given her some warning. What is interesting is that he does immediately ignore the whole thing with his Sam again and trusts their military relationship will force her into following his lead and ignoring it too.

                      I do think, as Josi, the joking 'loser' remark does give away some of Jack's own deeper partly subconscious reasons about why beyond the regs he believes it wouldn't happen between him and his Sam; that he's not good enough of her on some level and he thinks she could do better. (But I do also think that what the AUs show is that if Sam really showed that she wanted him, Jack may not get *why* she wants him but he'd be happy to be with her).

                      For me, Jack forgets that his universe can see through the mirror at the end - because he sends his Daniel and Teal'c back for what is evidently supposed to be a private goodbye. And I think the kiss is more curiosity on his part mixed with a dash of being there for AU Sam. But I think the kiss is bittersweet for both of them - he's not her Jack but equally she's not his Sam - she's not the Sam he wants to be kissing.

                      Sam - I do feel for Sam here but there is a great kind of reveal with her. She's confronted in the beginning with the difference in *working* choices between her and her double, and that's the first thing she really focuses on: her double never joined the military but Sam can't imagine not. And its interesting that the consequence of not joining is raised as one of the reasons why the AU is invaded and our universe is saved. From Sam's perspective although she doesn't come and out blatantly say so (her AU Sam does that on her behalf), she does place an importance on her being military as being a factor in keeping the world safe (which may explain why later she's so reluctant at looking at changing her military situation to be with Jack because perhaps this importance has seeped into her subconscious).

                      But next she's faced with the difference in her personal choices. AU Sam is married to Jack; she has a life as a woman beyond her work. Sam by comparison has nothing. But she barely gets time to process the news - she has to focus on the mission and so buries it to get the energy device working. And is only faced with it again after the universe is saved when she witnesses the kiss between her Jack and AU Sam.

                      I do think she is hurt a little because I do think Sam is aware of her own attraction to him at least and it's never a comfortable thing watching a man you're attracted to yourself kiss someone else; but then that hurt is swamped by confusion because its not just someone else but an AU version of her he's kissing (indicating that he evidently is also attracted but also likes her enough to offer that type of comfort), and there is also embarrassment because heck he's doing it in front of everyone!

                      After the events of POV, I do think Sam starts to think more about her relationship with Jack and the possibilities, leading her to her eventual realisation in A Hundred Days that she loves him. While I think Jack sticks everything back in the box with the anticipation that he won't have to deal with it again.

                      ---


                      See, for me, POV actually provides a high level outline of the story of our Sam and Jack that emerges from the whole series.

                      Sam begins oblivious and focused on her career; Jack knows there's more there but hides behind the regs and tries to ignore the whole thing.

                      They get confronted by the truth but both ignore it in order to focus on the mission. When Jack is pressed, he states the regs as the reason for him and Sam not being together.

                      The mission is a success and they save the universe. Sam is forced to face the truth again, and they finally kiss.
                      I think this is the key point for me, and the reason I love PoV so much (aside from the nostalgia feeling of this being really the start of the ship for me - not that I didn't see the ship before then, but that this was where I started to feel it). It tells us so much about our Sam and Jack's relationship, the potential, the pitfalls, their hang-ups, and how they would be together. So many things that when you've seen the whole story unfold in the later seasons and right up to now, you can go back to PoV and see the seeds of them there.

                      Great analysis of how Sam and Jack are feeling throughout this episode too, btw
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                        Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                        I too am not entirely sold on Jack not thinking he's good enough. This is how I imagine it - if the regs weren't in place, he might have pursued her, however, if she turned him down he'd probably chalk it up to being an old soldier, but if she jumped for it, heck, he's going to take what he can get and he sure as heck ain't gonna turn down a hot blond!
                        I think not being able to pursue a relationship puts him in a situation where he spends far too much time thinking and not doing, which for him is very unusual. And while I totally agree with Rachel that he just boxes up his feelings because they're impractical and thus irrelevant, he's not entirely successful. Between those two things it gave him plenty of opportunity to confuse himself so thoroughly with all the complexities of their relationship that the thought: "she's too good for me," just gets woven in there with all the other excuses. Because I thinks it's a rare person who really believes that to the point where they're willing to let someone go because of it. It is just an excuse.

                        Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                        because she (and he) both invoke that invisible distance in terms of emotional confidences to maintain the illusion/self-delusion they're not over the line with their feelings already. (This is fantastically shown in the contrasting scene with Sam where he tries to relate to her as he has just done with AU Sam in terms of offering blatant comfort and his Sam deflects him).
                        Yes, that had to have been quite a shock for Jack. That scene is definitely one of those "fork-in-the-road things," he'd referred to earlier, only in his own life, because this is the last time he ever makes an effort to talk to Sam about what's going on between them, he doesn't shut her down, he's even the one making the offer. And she refuses- arrrggghhh!!!!

                        Originally posted by josiane View Post
                        That is an interesting point, and I think is supposed to make us think that it's just the military keeping them apart. But I think that it's them too, with the not talking and the emotional insecurities, and so it doesn't really ring true.
                        Well, in many ways I think that the writers here did an excellent job because they really did need to find another reason than just the rules. Sam's uncertainties about her personal life in general and Jack's difficulties with communication thrown together with the regs are the problem, not the regs alone. Because that would be easy enough to fix- if they really wanted to. So- either they didn't really want to (which wasn't the case) or it had to be more difficult than it seemed to be for both of them. It was a nice bit of work in how the writers intertwined the various emotional problem areas of these two people with the rules to come up with a barrier that was almost impenetrable.

                        Because I also very much like your theory, VSS, that there's a change happens at the end of S8 in the AUs - before then, Sam and Jack get together = the world ends/bad things happen. After then, Sam and Jack don't get together = the world ends/bad things happen. Proving that it's our Sam and Jack that got it right all along
                        Yes, indeed, the fate of the world pivots on Sam and Jack being together at the right place in time. It's destiny.
                        Or maybe just a process of elimination.
                        Last edited by VSS; 14 November 2009, 04:43 AM.

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                          Originally posted by VSS View Post
                          Yes, that had to have been quite a shock for Jack. That scene is definitely one of those "fork-in-the-road things," he'd referred to earlier, only in his own life, because this is the last time he ever makes an effort to talk to Sam about what's going on between them, he doesn't shut her down, he's even the one making the offer. And she refuses- arrrggghhh!!!!
                          Hmmm. I never got the impression that he wants to talk to Sam about what's going on between them so much in that scene as he was offering to talk to Sam about how she was feeling about the situation and suddenly having a twin - just being there for his Sam in what was a weird situation when he'd already comforted said twin. (I just love that beat where she says 'have you got a few hours' and he just goes 'OK' much to her complete and total surprise.)

                          Jack never brings up the subject of them at all - the closest thing he gets to it is the initial offers to go fishing - and of course Sam does decline those.

                          It is rare after POV though that we get Jack actually openly offering to be there for her - after that he tends to simply be there without actually asking her such as in Jolinar's Memories, Grace or Death Knell, or he'll offer in very rare circumstances such as in Heroes and Threads with the 'c'mere' (echoing the comfort that he gives AU Sam).
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                            Originally posted by VSS View Post
                            Yes, that had to have been quite a shock for Jack. That scene is definitely one of those "fork-in-the-road things," he'd referred to earlier, only in his own life, because this is the last time he ever makes an effort to talk to Sam about what's going on between them, he doesn't shut her down, he's even the one making the offer. And she refuses- arrrggghhh!!!!
                            I didn't see it as her refusing to discuss it with him (since at this point there is nothing going on "between them" - he's asking if she wants to talk about her having a double and the revelation about her double and his now deceased double being together in another reality). She said something like "have you got a few hours", meaning to me that she was confused and unsettled about the whole thing and perhaps didn't feel like she could even begin to have any kind of intelligent discussion with him about it (if she did want to discuss it, she'd probably want to go off and think it all over before attempting to discuss it with anybody). If I remember correctly (and I might not be), her comment left it open for him to continue the discussion and when he didn't, she cheerfully said "goodnight, sir" and he didn't try to pursue it. He didn't know what to say about it either. I might be in the minority here, but I think neither of them really wanted to talk about it at that point, so it was an easy way out for both of them.

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                              you gotta wonder cause in a fan fic i read regarding POV the writer wrote the asgard revived AU Jack O'Neill and those two Live Well Not Really a Happy Ending Cause the Goa'uld nearly destroyed the SGC (Sorry SGA) and That Earth but they got to be back together again. what do u guys think happened after POV in That AU World

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                                as much as i love our little Original Timeline I kinda am Starting to Like AU Episodes Like POV, TBTGOG, 2010, Moebius (i'm a little Iffy on) and well Continuum (well the jury is definitely still debating on that)

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