Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Nynaeve506]

The Zombie Episode

Legacy
Synopsis:
Our favorite gang of Goa'uld headhunters finds themselves on a planet with a bunch of corpses. After gearing up (and hoping whatever killed them isn't airborne) Daniel does what he does best - touch things. After a failed attempt to make a Goa'uld tablet turn pages, they pack up and head home. There Daniel starts hearing noises and, in the closest thing Stargate will ever get to an actual zombie episode, he keeps imagining the dead bodies waltzing around, pretending to be people he sort of knows, and trying to yank him into his closet (in which slashers may or may not find a deeper meaning). Dr. "Misunderstood" McKenzie and our very own Dr. "Napoleonic Warmonger" Frasier decide Daniel is schizo, lock him in a very nice padded cell, and put him on some fancy drugs.

In a show of team spirit the remainder of our fearless crew visits Daniel in the psycho ward where we have more zombie action. In a moment of pure and utter insanity, Daniel lunges at the not-really-there dead guy, is held off by Teal'c who catches the not so great CGI slug thing. Teal'c gets sick, everyone wonders why, Daniel convinces Dr. "Misunderstood" McKenzie to let him out and they figure out that Machello, that funny, crazy, body swapping old guy, apparently, like the Ancients, liked to leave his crap lying around the galaxy to torture innocent bystanders.

Jack, Janet, and Sam get a page turner thingy Fed Exed overnight to them (does this qualify as a biohazard?). They use it, CGI bugs come out of it, get into Janet and Sam, and somehow magically fly across the room and end up in Jack too (I mean, they're TINY, how'd they get all the way on top of that suction thing so fast???). As it turns out Sam's immune (remind her to send a thank you note to Jolinar later...) and through some brilliant thinking by Janet, Sam saves the day.

Random thoughts:
I noticed in this episode that Janet was a Captain and Dr. McKenzie was a Colonel. Don't know why this was interesting but it was.

Overall the acting, as usual, was great. The scenes in the padded cell had that great AT magic. Her eyes, her expressions were just spot on. My concerns came towards the latter half of the episode.

I had two main issues with the episode:

First we have Hammond refusing to let anyone in or let anyone out. What was he going to do? Keep them locked in there indefinitely without food or water? I thought his fear of contaminating the entire base was a little over the top as we had seen with Daniel, only a total of ten people would be infected max and judging from the fact that they react to the presence of a symbiote, it was unlikely that they would come out an infect another person. Yes it's a risk, but what was the alternative? They just happened to have what they needed to solve the problem.

Second, Dr. Warner is an idiot. How did he end up working at the SGC? He got shown up by a mentally incapacitated woman trapped in a room with limited resources. Really? Did you GO to med school or did you just buy a lab coat because it flattered your figure? Realistically it shouldn't have taken him THAT long to figure out what she was doing. Rant over...

I do want to take this moment to speak up in defense of Dr. McKenzie. He gets raked over and over again in fanfic as though he's incompetent, but watching the episode, I'd like to point out that Janet agreed with him! While Jack was vindicated in believing it was more than just Stargate induced insanity, at this point the program had only been operation for just over two years with a limited understanding of the technology. McKenzie can only go by the data he's given and he can only filter it through the experiences he has.

On an interesting side note - these days psychiatrists are less used for therapy and more used for medication management. They tend to be more medicine focused and usually refer you elsewhere for actual one on one talk therapy. So Dr McKenzie's behavior was in line with the way most modern psychiatrists behave - if there is a mental instability, treat it with medication... okay I'm done defending

Sam/Jack:
This episode was much more Daniel-centric and actually focused most heavily on Jack and Daniel. That said, I did notice the ease with which Jack and Sam gravitated towards each other. First, in the conference room with McKenzie, Sam echoes Jack's sarcastic comment - showing us how like minded they are. Jack snarked at the beginning of the series about how he hated scientists, but Sam, while being a scientist, is very military in her thinking. On a team of four, Sam and Jack truly have the most in common. There's something about the military that creates a bond.

Later, after Daniel is released and they're all by Teal'c's bed, Jack and Sam are sitting so close they're touching. The bed is empty, they could easily have put even an inch between them, but there isn't. We find this same proximity at the very end after Teal'c gets the antidote (so to speak) - they're close, Daniel is at least two feet away from Sam at the food of the bed.

Fitting in with the timeline of how the ship evolved, I see this as just that natural pull they have towards each other. They like being with the other person and they're not even fully aware of what that means exactly. As far as either is concerned they're teammates, close teammates. I wonder if Sam allowed her guard to be down with Jack because she has her guard down with Daniel... the problem is that she has chemistry with Jack which will come back to haunt them for the REST OF THE SERIES... until now (at least in my world...).

And in closing... my favorite line:
Favorite Quote:
All right, let's say for the sake of argument that it is the Stargate, a theory to which I do not ascribe, then why don't we just put a little sign at the base of the ramp that says 'Gate travel may be hazardous to your health.' I can live with that. - Jack O'Neill

[Rachel500]

Legacy is not one of my faves (although the whole Stargate in the closet thing is very cool) - I think because it's rather, well, dull. The medical profession overall gets a bit of whumping in this episode. Janet and Mackenzie misdiagnose Daniel (which I think is almost reasonable - they were going with what was likely given the symptoms but I do think they were being rather close-minded to the possibility that perhaps there was an alien influence - of course the reason for that from a writing perspective is to give the whole 'we might shut down the gate' note nonsense), Warner takes a while to clue in (although I do think that was to highlight Janet's brilliance, give her redemption for her earlier mistake, and to underscore why she got the job of CMO and not him).

For me, the main relationship here is Jack/Daniel friendship with a side of team. I do love the scene with Jack and Daniel playing chess and Daniel trying to save Jack from the imaginary Goa'uld. Also love the way Jack immediately heads off to see Daniel when Mackenzie calls him even though by then Teal'c is sick.

WHY is Jack is the isolation lab with Sam and Janet? Shouldn't he have been in observation room with the others? Maybe one of the other things to track is how often Jack elects to stay in a room to watch Sam's six...so yes, there is a comfortability (is that a word?) between Sam and Jack as in Fair Game. Neither is worried that they're sitting too close to each other, neither is concerned about their closeness. And yes, good observation, that perhaps Sam let down her guard with Jack because of her friendships with Daniel and Teal'c too.

It's also an interesting underlying theme of early season 3 that is all about Sam finding peace with her Jolinar legacy which is also highlighted here (the title doubly referring to not only the legacy left by Machello but also that left by Jolinar), and which comes to fruition in Jolinar's Memories. In Seth she uses the hand device, in Fair Game she uses the healing device, and here her blood is the key to creating an antidote.

Which I think is very important for her in terms of sorting out the Martouf situation and understanding what are her feelings compared with what was left over from Jolinar. Because while I do think her comment to Narim back in S2 that she was confused was in part to get out of the awkward situation with Narim, I also think it was true. In dealing with Jolinar and finding peace with it, it allows her to move forward and begin realising exactly what she feels for Jack.

[Cagranosalis]

Lovely review Shannon, well done!

This wasn't one of my favourites either; pretty much all the things you pointed out from the dodgy science to the somewhat dodgy effects (and then the memory of a dodgy and extremely smutty fanfic involving Jack, Sam and Janet going "wild" in the lab after bing infected with the slug things... *cough* )
My biggest bugbear here though isn't that Daniel seems to be instantly diagnosed as having some kind of mental illness, and more specifically that they use the term schizophrenia. Granted some of his symptoms suggest that but I think the episode would have benefitted from us actually seeing some of the process of ruling everything else out before leaping to that conclusion. And as for schizophrenia - rather an unoriginal mental illness to pick, but I guess it's one everyone is familiar with so saves a lot of explaining, I just didn't like the portrayal of mental illness in this episode at all. Which is a shame, becuase they've tackled similar controversial subjects (addictions etc.) in much more sensitive and realistic ways.

Generally I think they fudged the science a bit in this episode, which is fine and they've done it plenty of times but it only works if there's style over substance and this doesn't have that.

As for Sam and Jack, agreed on all the point about their relative closeness. Retrospectively, it's lovely to see how naturally it developed and just reinforces this ship and why it has such a loyal following.

[EvenstarSRV]

And in closing... my favorite line:
Favorite Quote:
All right, let's say for the sake of argument that it is the Stargate, a theory to which I do not ascribe, then why don't we just put a little sign at the base of the ramp that says 'Gate travel may be hazardous to your health.' I can live with that. - Jack O'Neill

Heh, that's my favorite line too, with the great delivery by RDA.

Which I think is very important for her in terms of sorting out the Martouf situation and understanding what are her feelings compared with what was left over from Jolinar. Because while I do think her comment to Narim back in S2 that she was confused was in part to get out of the awkward situation with Narim, I also think it was true. In dealing with Jolinar and finding peace with it, it allows her to move forward and begin realising exactly what she feels for Jack.

Doesn't that happen later in S3? The one where the Tollan free Skarra from Klorel?

I rather like this episode, it offers some great Jack and Daniel friendship moments, as well overall team moments in their concern for Daniel and later Teal'c. I agree the medicine gets a bit wonky, though it did allow for some nice Sam and Janet interaction in the isolation lab.

For Sam and Jack, I like how in this case they were on the same wavelength concerning a medical/scientific situation, with their skepticism of Daniel's schizophrenia, when usually they seem to be most in sync on military matters to me.

[Rachel500]

Doesn't that happen later in S3? The one where the Tollan free Skarra from Klorel?
.

Oopsie.

Yes, it does. Pretense. For some reason I had it in my head it was S2. Ah well.

Anyway, I still stand my assertion that the 'Sam coming to peace with Jolinar' theme is there and maybe in fact her comment to Narim is an acknowledgement that she has personal feelings which she needs to sort out which are/have been confused by her Jolinar experience, (although not personal feelings about Narim per se because it is so clear in the episode that this is the 'its not you, it's me' speech of dumping).

[Nynaeve506]

I do remember thinking last night that McKenzie and Janet seemed rather close minded (I watched it at around 1 am... LOL). I think in my mind I imagined that they had done a full blood work-up and found nothing else. At the very least, I think McKenzie had the better excuse for being close minded - he's a psychiatrist. If there's a physiological explanation that's going to be more Janet's field than his. He gets called in if they think there's a mental issue. (Can I help it, I feel sorry for the guy getting beaten down in fanfics LOL)

As for the final scene with Janet and Dr. Warner - I can see that they wanted to highlight her brilliance, but Dr. Warner was just SO ignorant that it seemed to me to highlight more of his incompetence rather than her intelligence. No offense to Janet, but the solution seemed sort of Med School 101.

Rachel - I hadn't picked up on the theme this season of Sam needing to come to some sort of peace about Jolinar. Now I sort of wish they had played that up some more. Now I have an idea for a fanfic in regards to this episode.... hmmm....

[josiane]

*hangs head in shame because she was supposed to do the banner for this ep and forgot* I'll get it done tonight and then it can get put on the post in retrospect

Twilight, great review. I agree with your points that this is far from a perfect episode

Sam/Jack:
This episode was much more Daniel-centric and actually focused most heavily on Jack and Daniel. That said, I did notice the ease with which Jack and Sam gravitated towards each other. First, in the conference room with McKenzie, Sam echoes Jack's sarcastic comment - showing us how like minded they are. Jack snarked at the beginning of the series about how he hated scientists, but Sam, while being a scientist, is very military in her thinking. On a team of four, Sam and Jack truly have the most in common. There's something about the military that creates a bond.

Later, after Daniel is released and they're all by Teal'c's bed, Jack and Sam are sitting so close they're touching. The bed is empty, they could easily have put even an inch between them, but there isn't. We find this same proximity at the very end after Teal'c gets the antidote (so to speak) - they're close, Daniel is at least two feet away from Sam at the food of the bed.

Fitting in with the timeline of how the ship evolved, I see this as just that natural pull they have towards each other. They like being with the other person and they're not even fully aware of what that means exactly. As far as either is concerned they're teammates, close teammates. I wonder if Sam allowed her guard to be down with Jack because she has her guard down with Daniel... the problem is that she has chemistry with Jack which will come back to haunt them for the REST OF THE SERIES... until now (at least in my world...).

I think this is true, and it's most noticeable at this point early in S3, before they're on their guard against it - this point, as we've discussed in the last couple of eps too, is when they are at their most comfortable with one another, and this gravitation seems to be an obvious manifestation of that to me

WHY is Jack is the isolation lab with Sam and Janet? Shouldn't he have been in observation room with the others? Maybe one of the other things to track is how often Jack elects to stay in a room to watch Sam's six...so yes, there is a comfortability (is that a word?) between Sam and Jack as in Fair Game. Neither is worried that they're sitting too close to each other, neither is concerned about their closeness. And yes, good observation, that perhaps Sam let down her guard with Jack because of her friendships with Daniel and Teal'c too.

This is a very good point, and I think we can draw comparisons with ItLoD and Entity for example, which are other notable occasions when Jack is right there with Sam when really perhaps he should be a little further away. I know he feels a responsibility as her CO (and I'm sure that's how he justifies it to himself), but I think it is part of this gravitation and the closeness to one another that even when they are trying to keep apart they don't entirely lose.

It's also an interesting underlying theme of early season 3 that is all about Sam finding peace with her Jolinar legacy which is also highlighted here (the title doubly referring to not only the legacy left by Machello but also that left by Jolinar), and which comes to fruition in Jolinar's Memories. In Seth she uses the hand device, in Fair Game she uses the healing device, and here her blood is the key to creating an antidote.

Which I think is very important for her in terms of sorting out the Martouf situation and understanding what are her feelings compared with what was left over from Jolinar. Because while I do think her comment to Narim back in S2 that she was confused was in part to get out of the awkward situation with Narim, I also think it was true. In dealing with Jolinar and finding peace with it, it allows her to move forward and begin realising exactly what she feels for Jack.

Yes, absolutely, great observation

[Nynaeve506]

*hangs head in shame because she was supposed to do the banner for this ep and forgot* I'll get it done tonight and then it can get put on the post in retrospect

It's okay. I didn't remember until midnight last night that I was suppose to be doing a review LOL.

[EvenstarSRV]

Oopsie.

Yes, it does. Pretense. For some reason I had it in my head it was S2. Ah well.

Anyway, I still stand my assertion that the 'Sam coming to peace with Jolinar' theme is there and maybe in fact her comment to Narim is an acknowledgement that she has personal feelings which she needs to sort out which are/have been confused by her Jolinar experience, (although not personal feelings about Narim per se because it is so clear in the episode that this is the 'its not you, it's me' speech of dumping).

I definitely agree, I meant to mention that in my last post.

I really liked how the show continued the fallout of Jolinar after ITLOD, both physically and emotionally for Sam. It seemed like she came to terms physically with her new abilities first, like in Fair Game and Legacy, and emotionally later in Jolinar's Memories, Pretense, and into Divide and Conquer, I think.

[Nynaeve506]

Woohooo - the graphic is UP - Thanks jos

[Cagranosalis]

It's okay. I didn't remember until midnight last night that I was suppose to be doing a review LOL.

I was popping in on and off all day waiting for that review!


*remembers it's my turn tomorrow.*


Nice banner Josi.

I definitely agree, I meant to mention that in my last post.

I really liked how the show continued the fallout of Jolinar after ITLOD, both physically and emotionally for Sam. It seemed like she came to terms physically with her new abilities first, like in Fair Game and Legacy, and emotionally later in Jolinar's Memories, Pretense, and into Divide and Conquer, I think.

Possibly even later too. She must have felt some frustration when she could not heal Daniel with it in Meridian, and I am sure (although we dont see it) and eveery time a goa'uld is extrated from a host she'd probably revist her feelingss around it. I'm glad they didn't bang on about forever though as that would have been too much, but I am equally glad they did address it from time to time.

Actually, the whole Jolinar thing was a great move by the writing team all told. Prior to that she had no emotional connection to the Stargate programme - Jack had the fact it saved him, Daniel had Sha're and Teal'c, well he had the whole being from another planet / fighting for freedom thing. Making her host to a Tok'ra and then that leading to her dad becoming one cemented her motivation for being there.

Not sure I am making much sense; I haven't slept much this week!

[VSS]

Mind if I pop in for a bit? Haven't seen this group of my internet-friends in a while.

Hey, nice to see you're literally still alive.
So... are you saying that Jack never put Sam in the "comrade zone" because once a woman is categorized as such she'll never leave that zone? I kind of believe in that theory myself. If you ever see the recut CotG, the smile Jack gives Sam in the briefing room to me means she was never completely in the "comrade zone."

I noticed in this episode that Janet was a Captain and Dr. McKenzie was a Colonel. Don't know why this was interesting but it was.

Overall the acting, as usual, was great. The scenes in the padded cell had that great AT magic. Her eyes, her expressions were just spot on.

It's worth noting that Jack had a real poker face and Sam's emotions were written all over hers, even though they both had to have affected to the same degree by what was going on with Daniel. It's something to keep in mind for later when Jack decides he can't let his feelings for Sam show, either.

First we have Hammond refusing to let anyone in or let anyone out. What was he going to do? Keep them locked in there indefinitely without food or water? I thought his fear of contaminating the entire base was a little over the top as we had seen with Daniel, only a total of ten people would be infected max and judging from the fact that they react to the presence of a symbiote, it was unlikely that they would come out an infect another person. Yes it's a risk, but what was the alternative? They just happened to have what they needed to solve the problem.

I think Hammond's main problem here was letting them work on a biohazard in that little hood with plain rubber gloves. Didn't any of these people read The Andromeda Strain? So when that containment fails, I don't blame him for not opening the door. Among other things, the little buggers could multiply.

Second, Dr. Warner is an idiot. How did he end up working at the SGC? He got shown up by a mentally incapacitated woman trapped in a room with limited resources. Really? Did you GO to med school or did you just buy a lab coat because it flattered your figure? Realistically it shouldn't have taken him THAT long to figure out what she was doing. Rant over...

Totally true. Every doctor knows you can centrifuge blood, leave the red cells behind and just use the proteins. Big fail for Dr. Warner. Otherwise, I think the medical scenes and the logic in this ep were really quite good. The team and the doctors worked together without making anyone look clueless or incompetent- except Dr. Warner.

I do want to take this moment to speak up in defense of Dr. McKenzie. He gets raked over and over again in fanfic as though he's incompetent, but watching the episode, I'd like to point out that Janet agreed with him! While Jack was vindicated in believing it was more than just Stargate induced insanity, at this point the program had only been operation for just over two years with a limited understanding of the technology. McKenzie can only go by the data he's given and he can only filter it through the experiences he has.

Absolutely. The doctors did a quick survey and found that a lot of SG team members were having headaches- the only common denominator was gate travel. It's logical they should think it was the gate.

Jack and Sam didn't disagree that Daniel had schizophrenia- with the hallucinations and high dopamine levels, that's probably the right diagnosis. Where they differed with Drs. Frazier and MacKenzie was in the cause of the schizophrenia. And there, Jack and Sam are guilty of denial. They just didn't want to believe it was the gate because they didn't want to give up going through it!

On an interesting side note - these days psychiatrists are less used for therapy and more used for medication management. They tend to be more medicine focused and usually refer you elsewhere for actual one on one talk therapy. So Dr McKenzie's behavior was in line with the way most modern psychiatrists behave - if there is a mental instability, treat it with medication... okay I'm done defending

Yes. There are a great many more effective drugs these days. Psychiatrists treat serious chemical imbalances- if you need counseling they send you to a psychologist. Daniel's problem was clearly a physical, chemical problem because of its rapid onset and the high dopamine levels (don't know how they measured those but I know why they did).

MacKenzie was great here (except don't ever let a doctor try to give you a shot! Nurses do that- doctors are no good at it. ) For a moment, when he was with Daniel in the padded cell the second time, I thought they would play the "doctor won't listen to the patient" card and have him blow off Daniel's comment about Teal'c- but they didn't! Go Dr. MacKenzie!

Later, after Daniel is released and they're all by Teal'c's bed, Jack and Sam are sitting so close they're touching. The bed is empty, they could easily have put even an inch between them, but there isn't. We find this same proximity at the very end after Teal'c gets the antidote (so to speak) - they're close, Daniel is at least two feet away from Sam at the food of the bed.

They're definitely too close physically here. That's something I missed- probably because I'm so used to seeing it. But it's not normal for a collegial relationship.

And in closing... my favorite line:
Favorite Quote:
All right, let's say for the sake of argument that it is the Stargate, a theory to which I do not ascribe, then why don't we just put a little sign at the base of the ramp that says 'Gate travel may be hazardous to your health.' I can live with that. - Jack O'Neill

Nice! I loved this one:
Totally crazy-looking Daniel: "Why are you so quick to jump to the conclusion that I'm crazy?"
(Camera pans back to the incredulous look on Dr. MacKenzie's face). LOL!

For me, the main relationship here is Jack/Daniel friendship with a side of team. I do love the scene with Jack and Daniel playing chess and Daniel trying to save Jack from the imaginary Goa'uld. Also love the way Jack immediately heads off to see Daniel when Mackenzie calls him even though by then Teal'c is sick.

I agree that this is a great Jack/Daniel episode. In particular, I noticed that Jack immediately picked up the fact that something was wrong with Daniel, whereas Sam had missed it. That's not to say she's not sensitive, but rather to emphasize that Jack and Daniel have a longer history together, and I like that subtle acknowledgment.

However, I think Jack goes to Daniel because Dr. MacKenzie asks him to, not Daniel. MacKenzie is the subject of the preceding paragraph, so when Hammond says :"He's requesting you go there," Hammond is referring to MacKenzie. Otherwise Jack wouldn't have left Teal'c, who was much more ill than Daniel.

Also, when a patient is committed, they might make all kinds of requests, which the medical staff is free to disregard if they're unreasonable, and Jack would be free to ignore for the same reason- Daniel is nuts. But if the doctor is asking, he'll go because he knows it's serious.

It's also an interesting underlying theme of early season 3 that is all about Sam finding peace with her Jolinar legacy which is also highlighted here (the title doubly referring to not only the legacy left by Machello but also that left by Jolinar), and which comes to fruition in Jolinar's Memories. In Seth she uses the hand device, in Fair Game she uses the healing device, and here her blood is the key to creating an antidote.

Oh, nice point. It's unfortunate that the writers let the effects of Sam- and later, Jack- having been hosts drop from later stories. It was a neat arc and also another unique thing that Jack and Sam ultimately share.

[Nynaeve506]

I think Hammond's main problem here was letting them work on a biohazard in that little hood with plain rubber gloves. Didn't any of these people read The Andromeda Strain? So when that containment fails, I don't blame him for not opening the door. Among other things, the little buggers could multiply.

The little guys couldn't multiply - there are five per stone - 10 people infected max. Get a couple of zats, a few nurses with some sedatives and take those bad boys DOWN LOL.

I guess my point was that Hammond wasn't really offering any real solutions (except "figure it out in there"). What if they hadn't had a centrifuge? Or needles? Or whatever? Was he just going to hang out in the observation room and watch them die? I was just sort of incredulous at his hardline "NO" to everything.

[josiane]

Actually, the whole Jolinar thing was a great move by the writing team all told. Prior to that she had no emotional connection to the Stargate programme - Jack had the fact it saved him, Daniel had Sha're and Teal'c, well he had the whole being from another planet / fighting for freedom thing. Making her host to a Tok'ra and then that leading to her dad becoming one cemented her motivation for being there.

Not sure I am making much sense; I haven't slept much this week!

Makes perfect sense - excellent insight there. And particularly important I think because Sam was always the dispassionate intellectual one - compare her reaction to witnessing the black hole in A Matter of Time, for example. Which isn't to say she's emotionally insensitive, because we see quite frequently that that's far from the truth, but when her intellectual curiosity gets aroused it tends to push everything else out of the way. And the Stargate is nothing if not a huge source of intellectual curiosity for her, pretty much her entire career.

[VSS]

The little guys couldn't multiply - there are five per stone - 10 people infected max. Get a couple of zats, a few nurses with some sedatives and take those bad boys DOWN LOL.

I guess my point was that Hammond wasn't really offering any real solutions (except "figure it out in there"). What if they hadn't had a centrifuge? Or needles? Or whatever? Was he just going to hang out in the observation room and watch them die? I was just sort of incredulous at his hardline "NO" to everything.

They had already made several mistakes with those bugs, and they didn't know they couldn't multiply. After all, they are alive. Unless Machello is God the bugs are the offspring of some living thing. I guess they did read Jurassic Park!
They really can't take a chance- it could infect the whole world. They just don't know. Like so many things that are done in the SGC, this all should have been done at an alpha site, to be honest.