Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

That's an interesting take on the whole diplomacy thing that I had never considered before. I don't think the Asgard were ever as innocent and altruistic as they sometimes came across. They, like the Tok'ra, often used Earth's forces for their own ends (albiet often with benefits for us too), but unlike the Tok'ra they were far more transparent as to their motives.

It's the kind of statecraft that happens on earth all the time. For instance, two years ago Israel apparently took out a nuclear bomb-making facility in Syria and almost nothing is officially known about it. All the Western countries said, "Bombing? What bombing?" and Syria could hardly make much of a fuss considering what they were doing. Of course, like the Asgard attitude toward Jack's arm-twisting, we didn't officially condone it but we're glad it was done all the same, and we can appear to remain neutral and try to get things worked out diplomatically.

[josiane]

Fantastic review Josi. I absolutely adore this episode and you summed it up so well. Picking up on a couple of your points:



I love this scene. It's not flirty or tense in a romantic or sexual way; it's just nice and friendshippy, just like you say:



And I think that last sentence does highlight that just when they've got to the point of not only trust and respect but friendship too, it's easy to understand why they - particularly Jack IMO - are so completely blindsided by the confrontation in later episodes of possible deeper feelings. I imagine, if we are to interpret regulations by the book, Jack should probably have been thinking, "I've become too friendly with this person make objective command decisions involving her" even at this point but I don't think he sees the problem; he's had subordinates as friends before (best friends if we're to beleive Kowalsky was his best friend in this reality too) and it's never been an issue so I guess why should this be any different. I always thought Sam was slightly more aware of their feelings from earlier on but that's really just me speculating based my own experiences on how men and women's minds operate.

I think that's exactly right, it does take Jack far more by surprise. I think also he probably hasn't had many (if any) women under his command in this way before, to judge from some of the comments in CotG for example, and I think he's so determined to tell himself that it's just the same as Kawalsky for example, or even Daniel, that he kind of forgets to notice that he is reacting to her differently. If that makes sense. I think he tells himself that any physical attraction is just natural and has nothing to do with anything if he doesn't let it that his guard is down, almost. It's only when he is forced to relate to her as a woman and not as a subordinate, in PoV, that he starts to realise, IMO. I'm not sure I'm explaining this well but never mind Sam on the other hand starts off with a bit of a case of hero worship and a bit of a crush, and I think she is therefore on her guard more about that turning into anything else. Not that she can really do anything to stop it, as we see by her distress in A Hundred Days, but I think she is aware of the growing feelings earlier.

I haven't decided if I'm going to count the scene from Seth that has Jacob in it. If I do, it's one to one. Other people besides the main four always complicate the statistics, but Jacob always sits next to Sam so it throws off the statistics in a nonrandom way.

But, even 50/50 is higher than it should be. Statistically, Jack and Sam should only sit by each other 1/3 of the time in a two-by-two arrangement. It's easy to see how often that is exceeded, isn't it? Like the cutaway shots Josi mentioned, the framing is relentless.

Absolutely We are continually being reminded that they are a pair, on this almost subconscious level.

[Cagranosalis]

I think that's exactly right, it does take Jack far more by surprise. I think also he probably hasn't had many (if any) women under his command in this way before, to judge from some of the comments in CotG for example, and I think he's so determined to tell himself that it's just the same as Kawalsky for example, or even Daniel, that he kind of forgets to notice that he is reacting to her differently. If that makes sense. I think he tells himself that any physical attraction is just natural and has nothing to do with anything if he doesn't let it that his guard is down, almost. It's only when he is forced to relate to her as a woman and not as a subordinate, in PoV, that he starts to realise, IMO. I'm not sure I'm explaining this well but never mind Sam on the other hand starts off with a bit of a case of hero worship and a bit of a crush, and I think she is therefore on her guard more about that turning into anything else. Not that she can really do anything to stop it, as we see by her distress in A Hundred Days, but I think she is aware of the growing feelings earlier.

You explained that perfectly and exactly the way I see it.

I will add to that I think Jack and Sam were both aware of each other in a physical sense from quite early on; it would be hard to think they aren't after the events in episodes like Empancipation, The Broca Divide and Out of Mind. There's nothing really special or important about that and people can work together with that without it meaning anything or going anywhere. It becomes special and important (or in this case dangerous) when the two people in question start to really like and respect each other too.


VSS, I love that you are keeping such close score on this. Did you do so for the last two season? It would be interesting to compare and contrast?

[VSS]

You explained that perfectly and exactly the way I see it.

I will add to that I think Jack and Sam were both aware of each other in a physical sense from quite early on; it would be hard to think they aren't after the events in episodes like Empancipation, The Broca Divide and Out of Mind. There's nothing really special or important about that and people can work together with that without it meaning anything or going anywhere. It becomes special and important (or in this case dangerous) when the two people in question start to really like and respect each other too.


VSS, I love that you are keeping such close score on this. Did you do so for the last two season? It would be interesting to compare and contrast?

Yes I did. In season one it was statistically significant- that is Jack and Sam were deliberately seated by each other in a way that couldn't be just random. In fact, it was by a really huge margin.

In season two it was very nearly the other way- but that's much harder to demonstrate because if it's just random chance then they actually would not be sitting together most of the time anyway. So for me to show they're avoiding each other is really hard to do with a small sample size. But it was definitely trending that way and I don't know why. SOmeone suggested TPTB wanted to start up a relationship between Martouf and Sam. But maybe it was due to what you said- they're aware they're attracted to each other and are overcompensating for that.

The thing to keep in mind is that I can't just add up the times they sit next to each other at the table and the times they don't, because in a random 2 x 2 arrangement they should sit apart 2/3 of the time, not half the time. So any time they sit next to each other is actually against the odds.

[Cagranosalis]

*pulls out venn diagrams and scratches head*

You know I hated probability maths the first time around.

I do get what you are saying though. Basically as a foursome any one member should only sit next to the other a third of the time so if they're doing so more frequently than that then there's a clear trend towards if being by preference rather than chance.
I wonder how much of that was down to be being written that way and how much was down to actor choice? I say that because it's fairly well known CJ and MS are really good friends and it's obvious RDA and AT have a great deal of affection for each other on RL so I wonder if some real life affinity made its way onto the screen there?

[VSS]

*pulls out venn diagrams and scratches head*

You know I hated probability maths the first time around.

I do get what you are saying though. Basically as a foursome any one member should only sit next to the other a third of the time so if they're doing so more frequently than that then there's a clear trend towards if being by preference rather than chance.
I wonder how much of that was down to be being written that way and how much was down to actor choice? I say that because it's fairly well known CJ and MS are really good friends and it's obvious RDA and AT have a great deal of affection for each other on RL so I wonder if some real life affinity made its way onto the screen there?

I would think the directors always have reasons for where people sit and stand. But if the actors do what they want, then AT and RDA weren't getting along the entire second season.

I even remember somewhere in another thread a while back people were complaining about all the framing they did with Jack and Sam in recent years. It was especially noticeable in Continuum. I want to say it was in the short-lived SG-1 shipper thread, we were talking about SG-1 ships in general.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

im surprised i never heard this till now.

[Rachel500]

Fair Game...

It's one of those episodes that I really didn't like on first viewing but have really come to appreciate on rewatching (several times now - this being the latest).

Let me start with Jack (because who wouldn't really...); this is very much his episode and it underlines two things simultaneously: firstly, that his weakness (or area for improvement if we're phrasing this in 360 language) is diplomacy - the normal, political kind where you have people fencing around each other in a dance of language, half-truths, where cultural norms become diplomatic tools used to negotiate to gain a benefit or better bargaining position. Jack hates this stuff. He's not comfortable at all in this setting. He hates the suit; hates the conditions; hates the diplomatic vaguary.

This is where Daniel excels and Jack relies on Daniel hugely - even here where effectively Daniel is doing all the 'behind the scenes' work to keep the talks on track. I'm currently rewatching S6 and it is a great season for Jack because without Daniel he's really forced into that diplomatic role a lot more and I think that's good for him when he's General and he's having to deal with the politics of Washington. So, its a great character moment here in Fair Game where we see Jack having to deal with this situation where he's not comfortable and he's not at all confident about his ability to do it.

Secondly, if diplomacy is his weakness, then Fair Game also shows that strategy and tactics especially in a crisis/in the field is where Jack truly excels. As soon as the proverbial hits the fan, Jack comes into his own. He just shines as he works out a way to trap the culprit, and gain Earth the advantage they need to enable them to keep the Gate open. *fangurls Jack*

Sam & Jack

I love, love that scene between them where she's helping him with his suit and they're just talking. I think it goes back to the previous conversation we were having about friendship. That is so clearly demonstrated here. They're not just team-mates, CO and subordinate, they are friends; comfortable with sharing confidences to an extent. And I agree with whoever said that really they at this point, like in Into the Fire really, should be questioning their closeness in respect to their ranks.

You know in terms of who suspected their feelings first, I started out on first watching believing that it was Sam who got the first clue and Jack came to the party later. BUT. When I rewatched specifically to create the bible I use for my fanfic, I realised that Jack is a lot more clued in, much earlier, than I had previously assumed.

And from a character perspective, for me, it's actually more likely that he suspected the truth of his feelings first. He's been married; been in love before; he knows what it feels like. So I do think Jack knows he's started to feel more than he should, is closer than he should be as early as In the Line of Duty. I think his own reactions to Sam In the Line of Duty give it away but I think he buries it, dismisses it, because in his mind, she will never feel the same way about him, she's dealing with the whole Jolinar thing, and so he settles for friendship. Which is why even at the danger point of early S3 where their friendship is too close really for their military ranks and working relationship he doesn't question it - especially since from a fairness point of view, he has a similarly too close friendship with Daniel & Teal'c even if those are not complicated by attraction. And I do think Jack doesn't really get how much Sam loves him until the force shield.

Whereas, Sam really is a bit of a naive in respect to her personal relationships and really hasn't truly been in love before. I do think she's very aware of the attraction early on and is guarding against it, warning herself off any kind of crush (but as some of her actions show still despite herself really being attracted and falling in like) but she's too busy trying to prove herself to him as a soldier in S1 for her to truly consider him in any other light for me. And through much of S2, Sam is dealing with the impact of Jolinar; her feelings are all over the place but she's incredibly grateful for the friendship she has with him, his confidence in her and again, unknowingly to some degree allowing herself to care for him a lot more than she should. Again, when she thinks about her own feelings, I think she considers them a crush and something she has to get past - never considering for a minute that he would feel the same way. The beginning of S3 to me is really the slide for Sam into the revelation she has in A Hundred Days where at the end she suddenly gets that it isn't a crush, isn't just the caring of friendship she feels for him, and that she does love him. And I don't think she truly gets that Jack loves her until he's standing on the other side of the force shield and refusing to leave her.

But I guess that's the beauty of the ship - we can all interpret what we wish.

EDIT: PS/OT - Can someone let me know when its safe to head back into the Appreciation thread? I poked my nose in yesterday and all the spoiler posts sent me running for cover as I don't want to be spoiled for Earth even accidentally (as some stuff always seems to end up outside spoilers despite best efforts). Ta.

[Cagranosalis]

And from a character perspective, for me, it's actually more likely that he suspected the truth of his feelings first. He's been married; been in love before; he knows what it feels like. So I do think Jack knows he's started to feel more than he should, is closer than he should be as early as In the Line of Duty. I think his own reactions to Sam In the Line of Duty give it away but I think he buries it, dismisses it, because in his mind, she will never feel the same way about him, she's dealing with the whole Jolinar thing, and so he settles for friendship. Which is why even at the danger point of early S3 where their friendship is too close really for their military ranks and working relationship he doesn't question it - especially since from a fairness point of view, he has a similarly too close friendship with Daniel & Teal'c even if those are not complicated by attraction. And I do think Jack doesn't really get how much Sam loves him until the force shield.

That's a really interesting perspective Rachel, and certainly one I shall look out for myself now. I do think you have a valide point about Jack knowing from earlier that he is too involved but I still apply the MaleBrain default setting of only dealing with things when they slap you in the face, hence I think he probably acknowledged those stirrings, then filed them away to be forgotten about. Maybe that's not a male thing at all just a my husband thing that I assume all men are the same.Evidence would suggest it though.
I would also point out that Sam was, previous to this, engaged to Jonas Hanson so I assume she has had adult relationships, including loving someone, before. I would think she'd have enough experience to recognise feelings too.

[Rachel500]

That's a really interesting perspective Rachel, and certainly one I shall look out for myself now. I do think you have a valide point about Jack knowing from earlier that he is too involved but I still apply the MaleBrain default setting of only dealing with things when they slap you in the face, hence I think he probably acknowledged those stirrings, then filed them away to be forgotten about. Maybe that's not a male thing at all just a my husband thing that I assume all men are the same.Evidence would suggest it though.
I would also point out that Sam was, previous to this, engaged to Jonas Hanson so I assume she has had adult relationships, including loving someone, before. I would think she'd have enough experience to recognise feelings too.

You know, I do agree that I think Jack filed them away under a typical male reaction - and Jack reaction - of not needing to deal with it. I think when he realised he was too close, he just knew he didn't have to deal with it because Sam wasn't in the same place and in his mind unlikely to ever be in the same place, so there was no urgent, pressing need to deal with his feelings.

I guess where Sam is concerned, for me, I don't believe she really was in love with Jonas Hansen as much as she cared for him deeply and wanted to fix him; realised the truth that she couldn't and bailed. I'm sure at the time, she believed herself in love but I think she gets afterwards that it wasn't love. So while I think she recognises that's attracted to Jack and is admiring of him, I tend to think she does attribute it to a crush, as something she can *get over*, and their closeness to their growing friendship. I don't think she ever puts it together as *love* until she sees Jack with Laira and suddenly gets hit over the head with her own feelings.

I also think there is that moment in Need when Daniel hits out at her that she's never been in love; and I guess in my head, I can see the two of them (Sam and Daniel) at some point as friends discussing it and Sam admitting that she doesn't believe she's ever truly been in love like Daniel is with Sha're for instance, and Daniel using that confidence in Need to hurt her.

[EvenstarSRV]

And from a character perspective, for me, it's actually more likely that he suspected the truth of his feelings first. He's been married; been in love before; he knows what it feels like. So I do think Jack knows he's started to feel more than he should, is closer than he should be as early as In the Line of Duty. I think his own reactions to Sam In the Line of Duty give it away but I think he buries it, dismisses it, because in his mind, she will never feel the same way about him, she's dealing with the whole Jolinar thing, and so he settles for friendship. Which is why even at the danger point of early S3 where their friendship is too close really for their military ranks and working relationship he doesn't question it - especially since from a fairness point of view, he has a similarly too close friendship with Daniel & Teal'c even if those are not complicated by attraction. And I do think Jack doesn't really get how much Sam loves him until the force shield.

I liked your whole post and just wanted to comment on the bolded part because it nicely sums up how I see Jack and Sam in the context of the SG-1 team. I think Jack is used to becoming friends with his teammates, like Kawalsky and even Cromwell, so I don't think he really questioned also becoming friends with Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c. But like you said, his friendship with Sam is also complicated by an attraction towards her, which while it came up occasionally, I don't think really hit him directly until Point of View.

For Fair Game, it was fun to see Jack try to be the diplomat who, despite some early stumbles, was able to pull it off in the end. I also really liked the background on why Teal'c became Apophis's First Prime and why the ashrak was sent after Jolinar.

[m_wendy_r]

You know in terms of who suspected their feelings first, I started out on first watching believing that it was Sam who got the first clue and Jack came to the party later. BUT. When I rewatched specifically to create the bible I use for my fanfic, I realised that Jack is a lot more clued in, much earlier, than I had previously assumed.

And from a character perspective, for me, it's actually more likely that he suspected the truth of his feelings first. He's been married; been in love before; he knows what it feels like. So I do think Jack knows he's started to feel more than he should, is closer than he should be as early as In the Line of Duty. I think his own reactions to Sam In the Line of Duty give it away but I think he buries it, dismisses it, because in his mind, she will never feel the same way about him, she's dealing with the whole Jolinar thing, and so he settles for friendship. Which is why even at the danger point of early S3 where their friendship is too close really for their military ranks and working relationship he doesn't question it - especially since from a fairness point of view, he has a similarly too close friendship with Daniel & Teal'c even if those are not complicated by attraction. And I do think Jack doesn't really get how much Sam loves him until the force shield.

Whereas, Sam really is a bit of a naive in respect to her personal relationships and really hasn't truly been in love before. I do think she's very aware of the attraction early on and is guarding against it, warning herself off any kind of crush (but as some of her actions show still despite herself really being attracted and falling in like) but she's too busy trying to prove herself to him as a soldier in S1 for her to truly consider him in any other light for me. And through much of S2, Sam is dealing with the impact of Jolinar; her feelings are all over the place but she's incredibly grateful for the friendship she has with him, his confidence in her and again, unknowingly to some degree allowing herself to care for him a lot more than she should. Again, when she thinks about her own feelings, I think she considers them a crush and something she has to get past - never considering for a minute that he would feel the same way. The beginning of S3 to me is really the slide for Sam into the revelation she has in A Hundred Days where at the end she suddenly gets that it isn't a crush, isn't just the caring of friendship she feels for him, and that she does love him. And I don't think she truly gets that Jack loves her until he's standing on the other side of the force shield and refusing to leave her.

But I guess that's the beauty of the ship - we can all interpret what we wish.

EDIT: PS/OT - Can someone let me know when its safe to head back into the Appreciation thread? I poked my nose in yesterday and all the spoiler posts sent me running for cover as I don't want to be spoiled for Earth even accidentally (as some stuff always seems to end up outside spoilers despite best efforts). Ta.

Interesting. I honestly always believed it was Sam who first got the clue -- A Hundred Days is usually when it appears to me that she gets it -- I hadn't considered it being Jack before, but now that you say it, I see a reason to go back to S2 and have another watch.

One of the reasons I like to rewatch things is that I believe you miss things, and although we all interpret it differently, like you say, we all manage to point things out that we didn't see before. I like that.

[VSS]

I will add to that I think Jack and Sam were both aware of each other in a physical sense from quite early on; it would be hard to think they aren't after the events in episodes like Empancipation, The Broca Divide and Out of Mind. There's nothing really special or important about that and people can work together with that without it meaning anything or going anywhere. It becomes special and important (or in this case dangerous) when the two people in question start to really like and respect each other too.

I agree that eventually it came to this point with them, but early on I still think it could have been problematic because they aren't just coworkers- it's a superior/subordinate relationship. Having been exposed to that myself (you'd be surprised how very much like the military a medical residency is ) I think that Jack's comments in Emancipation and The Broca Divide were not quite appropriate. And although I completely agree with Josi that Jack treated her like any other airman, I think it wasn't really until Solitudes that their friendship was more on an even footing.

Fair Game...

Let me start with Jack (because who wouldn't really...);

*snort*
Well, I certainly would....

[I]Sam & Jack

I love, love that scene between them where she's helping him with his suit and they're just talking. I think it goes back to the previous conversation we were having about friendship. That is so clearly demonstrated here. They're not just team-mates, CO and subordinate, they are friends; comfortable with sharing confidences to an extent. And I agree with whoever said that really they at this point, like in Into the Fire really, should be questioning their closeness in respect to their ranks.

It was rather nice that when Sam confided she didn't want the goa'uld there because of her experience with the Ashrak, Jack sort of bends down to look her in the eye and says "I wouldn't want 'em anywhere, Major." His use of her rank to me means that he thinks she's not being overly sensitive because of her personal experience, but because it's just a bad idea from a tactical standpoint, too. It's just a really interesting way of affirming his faith in her to do the right thing as an officer- not acting on personal reasons alone.

And from a character perspective, for me, it's actually more likely that he suspected the truth of his feelings first. He's been married; been in love before; he knows what it feels like. So I do think Jack knows he's started to feel more than he should, is closer than he should be as early as In the Line of Duty.

I also think he realizes it first, and (with a few notable exceptions, like Shades of Grey) immediately goes into denial mode until Upgrades/D & C. And after those episodes, he does know it's the real thing and that explains a great deal of the difference between Sam and Jack after season 4, IMHO.

You know, I do agree that I think Jack filed them away under a typical male reaction - and Jack reaction - of not needing to deal with it. I think when he realised he was too close, he just knew he didn't have to deal with it because Sam wasn't in the same place and in his mind unlikely to ever be in the same place, so there was no urgent, pressing need to deal with his feelings.

Yes, I think that Jack's practical mind doesn't let him dwell too much on things that either have no solution or no impact on the situation at hand. Unfortunately, he was wrong about both of those things!

I guess where Sam is concerned, for me, I don't believe she really was in love with Jonas Hansen as much as she cared for him deeply and wanted to fix him; realised the truth that she couldn't and bailed. I'm sure at the time, she believed herself in love but I think she gets afterwards that it wasn't love. So while I think she recognises that's attracted to Jack and is admiring of him, I tend to think she does attribute it to a crush, as something she can *get over*, and their closeness to their growing friendship. I don't think she ever puts it together as *love* until she sees Jack with Laira and suddenly gets hit over the head with her own feelings.

I also think there is that moment in Need when Daniel hits out at her that she's never been in love; and I guess in my head, I can see the two of them (Sam and Daniel) at some point as friends discussing it and Sam admitting that she doesn't believe she's ever truly been in love like Daniel is with Sha're for instance, and Daniel using that confidence in Need to hurt her.

This is a nice summary, and what's interesting about Sam is that once she does finally get hit over the head with her own feelings, she still doesn't understand what that means, which leads to a lot of her problems later on. After all, Grace is somewhat of an exercise in logic. She doesn't understand you can't reason your way out of something you didn't use your brain getting into in the first place.

I liked your whole post and just wanted to comment on the bolded part because it nicely sums up how I see Jack and Sam in the context of the SG-1 team. I think Jack is used to becoming friends with his teammates, like Kawalsky and even Cromwell, so I don't think he really questioned also becoming friends with Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c. But like you said, his friendship with Sam is also complicated by an attraction towards her, which while it came up occasionally, I don't think really hit him directly until Point of View.

Yes, I think he didn't have any kind of clue until PoV, and even then it was pretty muddled. As he told AU Sam, "I get confused." He's got a tactical mind, and it's easier just to bury all those emotional issues and convince himself that Sam is a comrade-in-arms like his other friends.

[Coela Bellatore]

Yes, I think he didn't have any kind of clue until PoV, and even then it was pretty muddled. As he told AU Sam, "I get confused." He's got a tactical mind, and it's easier just to bury all those emotional issues and convince himself that Sam is a comrade-in-arms like his other friends.

Mind if I pop in for a bit? Haven't seen this group of my internet-friends in a while.

You hit the nail on the head there. Someone in another thread asked me why my Weather Team and an entire Gulf Co. of Marines are obsessed with Jewel Staite to such a degree. There are other women around (granted the veils take the locals out of the equation), we see female service members out in the battlespace and often take them along on Ops to search and interact with female Afghans. Why then are we so obsessed with this "woman" to the extent that a picture of said female human had the equivalent value of a television? Well the reason is that female service members =/= women. To work with them in the same way that we would work with other soldiers we have to basically create an asexual persona for them. Some of us treat them as "one of the guys" which can lead to some crude and awkward situations. I personally get no sexual or romantic reference off them, they are a comrade, a person, just the same as the male soldier next to them. I clean up the rhetoric for them but that's just it; they are a "different" group, not women but not men. This mindset allows us to function with them in this environment and can be near impossible to overcome. It is basically impossible to move female comrades back to the "woman" zone after mentally classifying them this way. That's why there aren't that many women or men falling in love with people in the military, most marry or date outside the fold (granted base personnel are different, they don't enter the combat arena).

[Zoser]

Definitely. And I think that's what Thor and the Asgard like about Jack. They show a remarkable amount of trust in him right from the very start. I think though that the Asgard do so because they recognise that the Tauri are the best chance of defeating the Goa'uld to come along in pretty much ever. They can't spare the resources to deal with them themselves, and can't risk the Goa'uld finding out they have been bluffing this whole time, so they jump at the chance of encouraging SG1 to do it instead. And good point on the ship not leaving until the very end, I hadn't caught that really it should have already been gone!

I agree and wonder if when the Asgard took the Ancient knowledge out of Jack's brain did they wonder about in there? (For some strange reason the scene in Unnatural Selection with First in Jack's mind and Jack saying "You'd think there would be more lights on.") Do you think the Asgard trust Jack because the know him better than maybe they should?