Jump the Shark!

[Matt G]

Yeah well...I guess it depends on your definition of jumping the shark.

My hunch says that S7 though very hit and miss, is going to be a blip. The reason for this blip? The writers didn't know Season 7 was going to happen till the last minute.

I like what I'm hearing about 'New Order' though I think that a 3 person SG1 could be stretching things a bit and I believe that S8 should be able to make up for the worst elements of S7.

[Indiana]

Stargate can only jump the shark for individuals because as individuals we enjoy different things. I haven't enjoyed Stargate as much as I did watching seasons 1-3 and it's because when S4 came about I started reading the spoilers. Spoilers are called spoilers because they spoil the show. If you didn't enjoy season seven its probably because there was no element of surprises in the episodes. You knew what was going to happen because you read the complete episode synopses online here.

I've not read a single spoiler for S8 or the Atlantis series. All I've peeped at is the new Gallery for Atlantis (only one I'm looking at) and the odd photographs of new characters. Plot Lines I have tried to steer right away from.

It's not the show that jumps the shark but the people who watch it. I jumped the Shark in Season four by reading spoilers. I never read them in S1-3.

People say that characterization has weakened and so has plot lines, but most of you might feel this way because you knew what was going to happen before hand and so nothing was a surprise. For many it wasn't a surprise what happened in Part 2 of "Heroes", or for what happened in "Meridian", or the twist in the tale of "Revisions" was common knowledge if one kept up with the joneses on spoilers. Imagine what the show would be like if you didn't know what was going to happen week after week?

[ShadowMaat]

Imagine what the show would be like if you didn't know what was going to happen week after week?

I didn't know what was going to happen in Full Circle (other than Daniel returning) and I still hated the things they did. As you said, people enjoy different things. For you, maybe spoilres ruined part of your enjoyment of the show, but for others, they enhance the experience. Spoilers are not the bane of existence for everyone. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I hope you're right about S8, Matt, but I can't share your confidence.

[Indiana]

I didn't know what was going to happen in Full Circle (other than Daniel returning) and I still hated the things they did. As you said, people enjoy different things. For you, maybe spoilres ruined part of your enjoyment of the show, but for others, they enhance the experience. Spoilers are not the bane of existence for everyone. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I hope you're right about S8, Matt, but I can't share your confidence.

And you still knew what was going to happen. In S1-3 episodes I would know absoloutely nothing about new episodes. Nothing! Nathing! Zip! But like individual episodes, different people like different things.

I on the other hand enjoyed Full Circle. If TPTB had known they would be returning for another season they would have done it differently. The ending of full circle definitely lacks the adventurous upbeat endings that earlier season used to have. In the end, I enjoyed it and thats what it counts to me. Sorry you didn't enjoy it, but we can't like 'em all.

But to some up what I was trying to say, Spoilers for me is when I jumped the Shark. I guess I'm going to have to wait til I watch a few new episodes before I can say if not reading the spoilers will improve my enjoyment of the show or not because since I decided to stop reading the spoilers there have been no new episodes.

[ShadowMaat]

And you still knew what was going to happen.

I knew Daniel was returning, that was bout it. The thing that pissed me off the most came as a complete surprise. I sat there stunned before my TV set thinking, "They could not possibly have just done that. They aren't THAT stupid, are they?"

But whatever. Spoilers ruin things for you. For me, they've saved me the heartache of watching some truly wretched-sounding eps, and clued me in as to which ones I should watch, so I'm quite grateful to have them.

As for getting back on topic, I stand by my prediction that a lot more people will be finding their own personal shark jump points during the course of S8. I'll be curious to see how this thread plays out.

[Gategrrl]

I agree with you there: everyone is different.

People say that characterization has weakened and so has plot lines, but most of you might feel this way because you knew what was going to happen before hand and so nothing was a surprise. For many it wasn't a surprise what happened in Part 2 of "Heroes", or for what happened in "Meridian", or the twist in the tale of "Revisions" was common knowledge if one kept up with the joneses on spoilers. Imagine what the show would be like if you didn't know what was going to happen week after week?

[/QUOTE]

What WAS a surprise for ME, was seeing and noticing how much Sam was pushed forward, and Daniel pushed back. How Sam was made into Jack's New Best Friend, and Daniel relegated to most of the non Team Scenes/Plots.

What I noticed, that I do not think spoilers had anything to do with, was the spotty characterization and plotting of episodes.
Spoilers had nothing to do with spotty characterization of the main characters.
Spoilers had nothing to do with the poor storytelling.
Spoilers had nothing to do with the lack of team interaction.

Basically, using spoilers as a reason for why *I* think the show has jumped into sharkdom, has nothing to do with what I knew beforehand. The joy of discovery of SG-1 has died: unless it's an ep written by CJ, tho, I'd like to qualify.

[FeydJM]

This is all very interesting. I personally still love the show and think it's a long way from Jumping the Shark.

I liked how the creators got rid of Michael Shanks and I think the way they brought them back was appropriate. It's been an ongoing thing that Oma Desala was not the prime example of the ascended and was kind of a rebel. So it fit completely in that the ancients had to punish Daniel but Oma found a way to bring him back. I think a lot of people underestimate how hard it is to re-introduce a character.

It also fit with Oma "saving" all abydonians. I liked that as well. It was a shocking plot twist but not one that I would consider inappropriate.

As far as S7 goes, I enjoyed it. I especially liked Space Race (flame away) and Lifeboat. I wonder why they wrote out Janet but I thought it was appropriate the way they did it. And the whole story behind heroes with the film crew and all struck me as completely plausible. I imagine that happens in a lot of top secret places for documentation purposes.

All in all, I'm really looking forward to Atlantis and S8. I hope it ends in dignity and I also hope Atlantis can carry the torch forward.

[Wordsmit2]

Has Stargate SG-1 jumped the shark?

Yes. "Full Circle" was the turning point. "Hooray, Daniel's coming back. We don't have to try any more. The show will just write itself."

Dead wrong, guys.

Can it be saved?

Yes. The writers are going to have to go back to trying. They succeeded brilliantly in season 6 when they had to define a new character and get us to respect him, and shift the show's focus to Carter in order to give Richard Dean Anderson more time off. They also managed to reintroduce the series, for those who had only noticed it now it was on the Sci-Fi Channel instead of subscription TV.

*

Looking back at season 6, I'm struck by how much teamwork there was. Most noticeably there were Carter-Jonas and Teal'c-Jonas pairings. But even episodes like "Sight Unseen" had a sense of teamwork, because it was the *SGC* at work. Skills were complemented, weaknesses were recognized and patched, assumptions were put aside, agendas were adjusted or postponed.

That's something that seems lacking in season 7. Compare the "Homecoming" Daniel-Jonas and O'Neill-Carter teamwork with the solo episodes, or the ones where people don't work together, or the ones where they work together but it doesn't matter *who* they work with. There is soul in "Homecoming" and "Avenger 2.0", which is probably why fans disagree about them so vehemently. Too many of the other episodes seem sterile, passionless, insubstantial. No one is asked to change.

This explains why I liked "Fallout" whereas upon reflection there didn't seem to be a lot to it: Keana's agenda forced Carter and Jonas to adjust to battle or accommodate her, and in turn forced her to change her agenda. The bickering delegates and the increasingly gloomy revelations of the causes of their woes didn't play quite so well because the delegates never made any adjustments. Yet it *was* interesting watching Daniel, Hammond, and ultimately O'Neill attempt to adjust and eventually get pushed too far.

[Aphrodite]

I'm glad you still think that the story is moving forward. My personal opinion is that most of the changes for the past few seasons have been for the worse and that in S7 in particular the show is devolving, not evolving. Change is good, but only if it's for the better, and as far as I'm concerned, the latest changes in Stargate have been for the worse...

I dred to think you maybe right. I mean they did kill off Dr. Frasier in the most rushed and for me not so right way.
Then in S8 Jack will barely be part of SG1 according to the spoilers and Hammond?? has he finally retired? Then there's Jacob/Sam's dad, he'll also barely be appearing on the show because of the strained Tokra alliance.....I mean I can keep going here....I mean it seems that the primary and some secondary casts appear to be leaving the show!!
Is that why Stargate - Atlantis was produced...to slowly end the original Stargate??

[Shemyaza]

I find myself wondering if the show hasn't become a victim of its own success. Everyone has their own expectation of a favourite show's direction. I admit that this show hasn't gone in my preferred direction and I think it came closest to jumping the shark during Season 4, which for me was one of the worst seasons. It was a defining season for me and afterwards, although I have not stopped watching the show, it felt to me as though it had taken a direction so far removed from the original concept that it had almost become another show. For me it was always about the Stargate, yet that aspect has appeared to diminish with the constant focus on the SG1 team members themselves. I know that many will say 'well it is called Stargate SG1' but for me that meant Stargate and SG1, not exclusively SG1. For me, the two were always inextricably linked to each other. I have a feeling that this was very much due to the perceptions of what viewers wanted from the show which some of the writers took on board rather too enthusiastically. They seemed to assume from the ensuing enthusiasm over the four main characters that this was the only thing that viewers wanted. More about Jack, more about Sam, more about Teal'c (albeit him to a slightly lesser degree than the others) and of course Daniel. The level of hysteria over his character reached such heights that when he left the show it bubbled over. That for me was the second defining point of the show and something which was handled excruciatingly badly. This wasn't so much a jumping the shark stage, although the shark fins were definitely circling when they had Daniel ascend and they've been circling ever since. However it's my feeling that the show hasn't actually jumped yet, but Season 8 is yet to come and as long as they don't get 'demob' happy and decide that because it's the last one they can do what they like no matter how ridiculous, hopefully the show will end on an upbeat note and won't be added to the annals of Jump the Shark! Unfortunately, given the fact that RDA seems to have switched off, Don S Davis' stabilising presence will no longer be there and Teryl Rothery, one of the few very talented members of the cast, has also gone, I'm not entirely sure they'll be able to resist turning it into a pantomime.

Still, here's hoping.........

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

My personal opinion is that most of the changes for the past few seasons have been for the worse and that in S7 in particular the show is devolving, not evolving. Change is good, but only if it's for the better, and as far as I'm concerned, the latest changes in Stargate have been for the worse...

I would have to agree. Not necessarily devolving, but being deconstructed. The show, for me, has lost its uniqueness, and become like any of the other recent crop of sci fi shows. What set it apart originally was the natural tensions that it had within it (discovering history versus military activity) and the placement of Earth itself within the heirarchy that was 'out there'. It's difficult to put it into words, but humankind doesn't seem to accept very gracefully that it's not the centre of the universe, and more and more the show has crept towards the postion where the humans are the most important people at the centre of everything, and no one else can do anything right, and everyone else needs help from the humans because humans have a manifest destiny to be 'better' than everybody else. In the early seasons, the program actually challenged this view. They actually made interesting plots out of it - such as Enigma, the Nox, and Learning Curve, where the SGC had to learn that it can't just go around demanding everyone change to suit their own ideas of what is good and right (although I do think the ending of Learning Curve was an awful cop-out). But recently it seems that it's become set in stone that the SGC does know best in every circumstance and everyone who has an opposing view seems to inevitably get bad Karma out of it...

The Asguard have been deconstructed, in that they now regularly need humans to pull their choobies out of the conflagration.

The Ancients have been deconstructed, in that it turns out they were humans after all, thus re-confirming humanity as the 'most important' species, and the natural heirs to all of that techie goodness...

The Ascended have been deconstructed, in that they now are embued with the same pettyness, the same trivial concerns as 'lesser' races, and the things which could have been explored about them will obviously now never be possible.

The Tollans have not so much been deconstructed as destructed...

The Nox have very sensibly dissapeared and are no doubt having a very good laugh at our expense somewhere.

The Tok'ra, who managed to survive without humanity's 'help' for two thousand years or so have now been all but wiped out - and I bet the remainder are now thinking that humanity wasn't that much help to THEM.

The Jaffa, who don't actually seem to be able to organise their way out of a paper bag without their Goa'uld masters, are now denied access to larval symbiotes because they are no longer trusted. Human intervention doesn't seem to have done them a lot of good either.

You know, when I think of what a writer like JMS might have done with the whole Tok'ra/Jaffa/Goa'uld/Human politics thing, it makes me want to weep for all the potential lost opportunities.

And I am not going to get started on particular characterisations.

[darklilac]

Regarding the post of this Indiana person, it's weird for a fan to post something like this, usually it's TPTB that are worried about spoilers, in fact didn't they say something exactly like that not so long ago to the webmaster of Gateworld?
Spoilers don't make an episode less interesting or not good, it's the plot.
If an episode is crap, then it doesn't matter how many spoilers we read, like for example Emancipation, D&C, Wormhole Extreme, I didn't read any spoilers and I found them horrible anyway.
After season 3 the shows started to go downhill, so that's why the episodes started to stink, not because of the spoilers.

It's also interesting to see that the fans that think Stargate didn't jump the shark and it's still so damn good are all Jack/Sam fans(see the icons).
Of course, since now Stargate it's the Sam/Jack show.

Another person here posted that it jumped the shark at the beginning of season 7, with the descended thing(Daniel), but then Stargate came back on track in the second half of season 7.
Againd JS fans, while the truth is that the second half of season 7 has nothing to do with Stargate, everybody has been killed or transferred, and the main storyline is now the JS love.

Stargate didn't jump the shark, because they're not out of ideas, or out of characters, and some of the actors are very good.
It's TPTB that chosed to drop the ball, and let Stargate become the loveboat.

My only satisfaction will be when Atlantis will flop, and it will.

[Dani347]

All I can say is, I've always read spoilers. I'm the type of person that flips to the end of a book before I start reading it. And, if a story is good, knowing how it's going to turn out has never affected my enjoyment. So no, for me spoilers are not the reason I think Stargate has jumped Papa Shark, Mama Shark, and all their little baby sharks. If I had watched season 7 without ever knowing anything beforehand, I still would have felt the same way.

[GateGipsy]

It's also interesting to see that the fans that think Stargate didn't jump the shark and it's still so damn good are all Jack/Sam fans(see the icons).
Of course, since now Stargate it's the Sam/Jack show.

A lot of aggro and upset has been caused in the fandom due to the use of generalisations such as yours. It is just your opinion that it is the Sam/Jack show. It doesn't happen to be my opinion. I am a Daniel fan - you can see my icon. And I don't think that it has jumped the shark. So please don't use the 'all [insert type of fan here] fans' remark unless you've exhaustively surveyed the fandom and know it for sure!

[GateGipsy]

What set it apart originally was the natural tensions that it had within it (discovering history versus military activity) and the placement of Earth itself within the heirarchy that was 'out there'.

Have you got any work done today?

Right, you raised a lot of excellent points there, but I've only got time to go into one of them.

With this I think you hit the nail on the head, at least for me. I always liked that aspect of the show, the tussle between the civilian and the military, the sense that neither was right or wrong always, but that by pushing the two together you can come up with something that is ethically and morally the right thing to do. It is how I always imagined that Starfleet and the Federation first came into being.

Although I do agree that this is something the show has lacked in Season 7, I just don't think it is enough to 'jump the shark'. The show has been deconstructed, and the writers haven't come up with the same level of storylines we're used to, but we haven't descended into the plain ludicrous - yet.

**stops to think**

although how easily they were suddenly able to defeat the super soldiers in Lost City, and how they took them all out with no deaths despite Tealc making a great honking target of himself could be seen as ludicrous...nope, not going to think about it... **sticks fingers in ears, la la lala la la**