Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[chocdoc]

Do you think so? I got the feeling that all four of the team were in charge at different points . Daniel was in charge during the teaser, Mitchell was in charge when Woolsey insisted SG-1 protect them, Teal'c was in charge when he and Mitchell were out trying to reach the fliers, and Carter was in charge when they went for the transmitter (I'm not counting her being in charge when she was alone guarding the delegates in the cave).

I really didn't see Mitchell taking a command role in this ep (though I think he was supposed to be doing so). It struck me as very odd that a team-leader does not know an essential mission protocol too and that Carter had to tell him (or very scary that he knew but forgot a crucial one, if that were the case).



I agree, I'm not looking for fairness. But I like to see plausibility, so at the moment the only plausible explanation for the character-dynamics, mission structures and especially Mitchell's behaviour is that Mitchell is learning to command an SG team while Carter has the same responsibilities and sort of trains him. That's what's happening on screen.

Great points. This is how I saw it too. All four of them seemed to be leading at different times. And for me too, it is an issue of plausibility. The only thing that makes sense to me is that Mitchell is learning from Carter (and Daniel and Teal'c).

I'm also surprised that Mitchell would not know the mission protocol. Clearly, Carter did.

Who should lead SG-1? Carter. I would like to see this in season 10.

[xtremixt]

Okay people, there is only one person elegible to lead SG1, and that person is me.

If it cant be me, then i suggest we get Carter to do it, cos shes smart, strong and she has pretty eyes. Other reasons include that if she led, then she would be in most of the episodes and then we could see her more often. And that means that the world would be safe cos if she was there nothing would go wrong.

[nccjones]

Ok...I'm reposting this from page 11. My original post was in the middle of a heated "debate" that most will probably skim over which is what I ended up doing. I don't mind debating, but when it's endless and the same points keep getting rehashed, it's not worth reading anymore.

Here's my original post:

I voted for Sam. Not sure why Daniel and Teal'c were put on the poll except to be politically correct (Though I'd love to see Daniel lead a team of some sort in the future).

Mitchell. Well, first off, the reason Sam isn't in charge is because of the unfortunate (yet blessed) timing of AT's pregnancy. It just so happened to coincide with RDA's departure.

Sam, whether she was gone 5 episodes or not, should have been the leader. She obviously deserved it. But TPTB needed someone to fill RDA's shoes, and they wanted someone big....not that BB is big in the TV industry...just in the Sci-fi industry (I never heard of him until he came to this show), so they couldn't put him lower in the credits. They needed someone who was big enough (supposedly) to take the lead credit. Now, if someone has the lead credit, how can they possibly justify making him the 21C?

I still think a better choice would have been Adam Baldwin. We've seen him lead in the past. He has the experience and the leadership abilities. He would have been more believable in the position. He has a name that's been out there, plus several major movie credits to his name. Who knows, maybe he was asked and turned it down. But I'd still rather have had him as leader than "Cam".

[ParadoxRealities]

Guys, maybe before you edit your posts you could just take out any mention of the word "you" (and maybe cursing?), maybe prevent personal attacks you didn't mean.

I loved what RealmofX and Lightsabre did with the Prototype scene. For myself I'd just like to add that even though we never had a permission briefing where Landry stated the mission objectives, it a good bet they were the latter because Sam's mission had already started.
Yes, I think you're right that the Mitchell nod thing was superfluous, but I think that was because Sam knew it would be ok. If she was addressing a different man than Mitchell (or Jack, etc), she would have been much more formal. And she would have stopped had Mitchell NOT nodded.
But as for her stating what she was going to do (working inside your assumption here), that's perfectly protocol. Mitchell might not have realized (ok in this case he would have, but not all) what needed to be done. No harm in another senior officer reminding him.

Lost City: I don't think Sam NEEDED to be terribly authorities, everything was getting done. We've seen missions with Jack where everything just kind of runs because he trust everyone to know their job. But, yes I will give it to you that she was a bit hesitant when she first ordered Jack, but I write that off as odd situation and good line for TPTB (but THAT really is purely my opinion, more than the rest).

Nightwalkers: There's a few ways to look at this. Maybe she simply couldn't risk a signal. Yes, it probably would have been ok, but with so much on the line, her priority was to complete the mission (i.e. maintain her cover). That said, she may well have given a signal that Jonas, being the new guy, missed. Teal'c seemed to be watching Sam rather interestingly.

Paradise Lost: (nitpick) Where does Lee say 24 hour shifts? I'm have DVD issues and the transcript I read may be wrong, so feel free to correct me. The mission leader in this ep is very obscure, especially since Sam could well outrank him EITHER as an officer, or as a civilian. I don't see her not being on the planet as a sign of not being the leader. After all, it wasn't a military mission, she was trying to complete the mission, not monitor the scientist (which, as you have stated, aren't usually monitored).
I also see

LEE: We have no frame of reference, no way to interface.
CARTER: I’m working on it, Doctor. As you should be!
LEE: Right.

as a sign that he does indeed take some of his orders from her.

Collateral Damage: Mitchell goes off with a relative stranger on a foreign planet, YES mission protocol states he needs to tell his team where he is. Mission protocol also states not to accept invitations from lovely women. Not 24/7, but leaving the team on an off world mission to go with one of the aliens, no matter who, requires the member to inform the team.
Not doing so DID show poor judgment. If I were his CO (which I'm not)regardless of what happened I would have reprimanded him. And gone in to severe detail about what COULD have happened.
If I were on SG-1 I would suspect trouble, simply by virtue of the fact that I'd trust Mitchell enough not to go wondering off with an alien woman without telling me.

Menace (Reese): Jack had no reason to believe the situation had changed. Yes, he COULD have yelled, but there is nothing actually WRONG with him not. (IMO, Daniel seemed to agree with him in the end.)

The Other Side: Yes, Stargate does have a rather bad case of ethnocentrism, but they were trying to turn the tide of the war towards the "good guys". Think of it (if you like) like dropping the A-bombs, they had to cause this much damage to keep the good guys from loose "this much". That shows Jack IS a moral man rather than not. ((Just another way of looking at it. I myself wrote it off as ethnocentrism and the need for explosions. But I know its annoying to see people write things they don't like off as "TPTB at work".))

[the dancer of spaz]

Do you think so? I got the feeling that all four of the team were in charge at different points . Daniel was in charge during the teaser, Mitchell was in charge when Woolsey insisted SG-1 protect them, Teal'c was in charge when he and Mitchell were out trying to reach the fliers, and Carter was in charge when they went for the transmitter (I'm not counting her being in charge when she was alone guarding the delegates in the cave).

I really didn't see Mitchell taking a command role in this ep (though I think he was supposed to be doing so). It struck me as very odd that a team-leader does not know an essential mission protocol too and that Carter had to tell him (or very scary that he knew but forgot a crucial one, if that were the case).

I agree, I'm not looking for fairness. But I like to see plausibility, so at the moment the only plausible explanation for the character-dynamics, mission structures and especially Mitchell's behaviour is that Mitchell is learning to command an SG team while Carter has the same responsibilities and sort of trains him. That's what's happening on screen.

I saw it that way, as well. And I also was very puzzled at the fact that Cameron was so quick to reassure them of the Odyssey's arrival, because he had either forgotten or was unaware of the protocol.

I've said this before, but I honestly don't think TPTB are deliberately writing Sam as more competent than Cameron - which is kinda funny. I don't know if they think it's cute or funny for Cameron to make all of the calls, only to have Sam/Daniel/Teal'c politely correct him, but all it does is slowly make Cameron look like a buffoon.

Something as huge as a neurotoxin shouldn't just slip your mind, ya know?

[warmbeachbrat]

I agree, I'm not looking for fairness. But I like to see plausibility, so at the moment the only plausible explanation for the character-dynamics, mission structures and especially Mitchell's behaviour is that Mitchell is learning to command an SG team while Carter has the same responsibilities and sort of trains him. That's what's happening on screen.

I think this is a great explanation. I've stayed out of this argument, because the answer doesn't make any difference. Mitchell was given the lead when he was only "SG-Me." Sam was leading SG-1 in Season 8--obviously that wasn't her highest priority, because she left that position to go to Area 51 (for admittedly good reasons). So we have Mitchell reforming the team, deferring to Sam when needed and learning from everyone on the team.

I guess my big question is: Does Sam want to be in command? It doesn't seem like it to me. She is in command when she has to be (and is perfectly competent), but I don't think she's entirely comfortable with it. I think she's content with things the way they are. But, of course, these are just my opinions.


Edit: Part of the problem with threads like this is the entrenched positions that tend to develop when defending your point of view. Sam is the best commander ever/the worst ever. Mitchell shouldn't be allowed to breathe the same air as Sam/is way better than she could ever hope to be. Sorry--employed a little hyperbole there. Defending either one tends to escalate to caricature. They both have their good and bad points regarding leadership and characterization. It needn't be so sharply drawn. I've seen instances of good command decision and bad command decision from both; I've seen instances of "insubordination" from both. I have a difficult time seeing Sam or Mitchell as either perfect or hopeless.

[ForeverSg1]

SHe has the right to call him by name, but she cannot TELL him what she will do if he is leading the mission.

I have read several of your comments regarding Sam and how she behaved insubordinately towards Cameron in Prototype, but I have yet to read what exactly it is that you think Sam did wrong.

When they got to the planet Mitchell said and I quote:

MITCHELL: Alright…let's see what all the fuss is about.

This is it. No other command nor order. Sam and SG-5 were there to check out the black hole, and I simply saw her as informing Mitchell of the fact that they wouldn't be able to do that until nightfall. So she informed SG-5 to set up their equipment. In past episodes where multiple SG teams were involved, Jack would normally make the obvious statement like SG-3 set up a defense perimeter and he'd be off with SG-1. Then the leader of SG-3 would bark off orders to his team.

I do not see this as any different than what happened with Sam and Mitchell. Mitchell said let's see what all the fuss is about. He didn't give any special instructions or commands. Sam therefore took command of her objective and set SG-5 off to set up camp and proceeded on with her next priority of making sure the DHD was in proper working order.

Would you have rathered that she waited until later to find out that it didn't work? Isn't this what Sam typically does in this sort of situation? We did not see a briefing on this mission so we really don't know who was in charge of the overall mission or what everyone's objectives were, but I can almost certainly say that Sam's first priority was to make sure the DHD worked as it should.

So what exactly was she suppose to do? Wait until Mitchell ordered her to do so? She's a Lt. Colonel, not a cadet. She knows what her job entails. Now if Mitchell had explicitedly told her to do one thing and she ignored him then I could understand your being upset with her, but I honestly think it's a matter of you interpreting the situation differently than most.

Kat

[Lightsabre]

I have read several of your comments regarding Sam and how she behaved insubordinately towards Cameron in Prototype, but I have yet to read what exactly it is that you think Sam did wrong.

When they got to the planet Mitchell said and I quote:

MITCHELL: Alright…let's see what all the fuss is about.

This is it. No other command nor order.

This has been hashed out already. Read above.

Sam and SG-5 were there to check out the black hole, and I simply saw her as informing Mitchell of the fact that they wouldn't be able to do that until nightfall. So she informed SG-5 to set up their equipment. In past episodes where multiple SG teams were involved, Jack would normally make the obvious statement like SG-3 set up a defense perimeter and he'd be off with SG-1. Then the leader of SG-3 would bark off orders to his team.

I saw it as Mitchell started talking and Sam took over. To me, that is insubordinate and quite damn rude. She may have had the right to order SG-5, but that scene didn't gel for me, for that reason.

I do not see this as any different than what happened with Sam and Mitchell. Mitchell said let's see what all the fuss is about. He didn't give any special instructions or commands. Sam therefore took command of her objective and set SG-5 off to set up camp and proceeded on with her next priority of making sure the DHD was in proper working order.

He didn't have a chance. Carter took over, issued orders and then told him what she would be doing.
Mitchell didn't have a chance to establish command because Carter simply took it, making him superflous. And before you say that's a good thing, think about it.
Carter essentially made her sometime CO superfluous on a mission. That's a bad predent to establish, even if it's not against military regs.

Would you have rathered that she waited until later to find out that it didn't work? Isn't this what Sam typically does in this sort of situation? We did not see a briefing on this mission so we really don't know who was in charge of the overall mission or what everyone's objectives were, but I can almost certainly say that Sam's first priority was to make sure the DHD worked as it should.

When did I EVER say she shouldn't have touched the DHD. Again, read the posts please. I said that when she TOLD Mitchell what she was doing that it was out of line.

So what exactly was she suppose to do? Wait until Mitchell ordered her to do so? She's a Lt. Colonel, not a cadet. She knows what her job entails. Now if Mitchell had explicitedly told her to do one thing and she ignored him then I could understand your being upset with her, but I honestly think it's a matter of you interpreting the situation differently than most.

Kat

Wait? No. Ask? yes.
And my interpretation is just as valid as the next person's. I cannot argue or defend my opinion, it is opinion.
If you see it differently, fine. But I think this scene has been discussed and re-discussed over and over.
Can we let Prototype drop now?

[Lightsabre]

I saw it that way, as well. And I also was very puzzled at the fact that Cameron was so quick to reassure them of the Odyssey's arrival, because he had either forgotten or was unaware of the protocol.

I've said this before, but I honestly don't think TPTB are deliberately writing Sam as more competent than Cameron - which is kinda funny. I don't know if they think it's cute or funny for Cameron to make all of the calls, only to have Sam/Daniel/Teal'c politely correct him, but all it does is slowly make Cameron look like a buffoon.

Something as huge as a neurotoxin shouldn't just slip your mind, ya know?

Daniel and Teal'c didn't seem to know about it either. I think it was a science thing.
I mean, what are the chances Lee and Carter (both scientists) would know, but Daniel, Teal'c and Mitchell didn't??

Also, I thought Mitchell did well on this ep.
He definately led, giving orders to his team.
He used the hand signals, again, orders, when silence was needed.
He came up with a good improvisation with the C4.
He worked out the bugs were going to go under them rather than over them.
All in all, I thought Mitchell did very well on this ep.

[ParadoxRealities]

Daniel and Teal'c didn't seem to know about it either. I think it was a science thing.
I mean, what are the chances Lee and Carter (both scientists) would know, but Daniel, Teal'c and Mitchell didn't??

Also, I thought Mitchell did well on this ep.
He definately led, giving orders to his team.
He used the hand signals, again, orders, when silence was needed.
He came up with a good improvisation with the C4.
He worked out the bugs were going to go under them rather than over them.
All in all, I thought Mitchell did very well on this ep.

The protocol in The Scourge was tractical; every off world military officer in the SGC should have known about it. There is nothing science about it. I'm sorry, its not up for debate. If you want to debate whether TPTB KNEW it, well then.... But its not a science thing. (wait, Dr. Lee was in Scourge?)

[Lightsabre]

Guys, maybe before you edit your posts you could just take out any mention of the word "you" (and maybe cursing?), maybe prevent personal attacks you didn't mean.

I loved what RealmofX and Lightsabre did with the Prototype scene. For myself I'd just like to add that even though we never had a permission briefing where Landry stated the mission objectives, it a good bet they were the latter because Sam's mission had already started.
Yes, I think you're right that the Mitchell nod thing was superfluous, but I think that was because Sam knew it would be ok. If she was addressing a different man than Mitchell (or Jack, etc), she would have been much more formal. And she would have stopped had Mitchell NOT nodded.

I guess I'm just not so sure she would have as you. The scene felt to me like a nod to military regs, but that's it. Mitchell could have said yes, no or chicken pot pie for all the difference it would make.

But as for her stating what she was going to do (working inside your assumption here), that's perfectly protocol. Mitchell might not have realized (ok in this case he would have, but not all) what needed to be done. No harm in another senior officer reminding him.

Maybe, it just made the scene seem different to the interpretation you guys have, for me.

Lost City: I don't think Sam NEEDED to be terribly authorities, everything was getting done. We've seen missions with Jack where everything just kind of runs because he trust everyone to know their job. But, yes I will give it to you that she was a bit hesitant when she first ordered Jack, but I write that off as odd situation and good line for TPTB (but THAT really is purely my opinion, more than the rest).

LOL, it was a good line, however, I felt the delivery was such that she was...pushing the limits almost. Not sure about how much authority she had and curious to see if Jack would obey HER. That may be a natural response, but it also doesn't make a good leader in my book.
you are right tho, in Lost City, she didn't need to be. Everything ran smoothly.
However, I wasn't confident that if they didn't, she could handle things.
Jack always was in charge. Even when the others argued, Jack said, 'Thanks for your opinion. DO it my way.'
When there was a compelling argument, he changed his mind, but it was always his call.
Can you see Sam slapping down Daniel like Jack did in 'The Other Side'.
I'm just not confident in her ability to make the hard choices because I've never seen her make them.

Nightwalkers: There's a few ways to look at this. Maybe she simply couldn't risk a signal. Yes, it probably would have been ok, but with so much on the line, her priority was to complete the mission (i.e. maintain her cover). That said, she may well have given a signal that Jonas, being the new guy, missed. Teal'c seemed to be watching Sam rather interestingly.

Possibly. I just felt the whole scene was wrong. I thought the 'keep an eye on x' was just wrong as I've said.
I'll rewatch it(I hate that ep) and see if I can pinpoint what it was that jars me.

Paradise Lost: (nitpick) Where does Lee say 24 hour shifts? I'm have DVD issues and the transcript I read may be wrong, so feel free to correct me. The mission leader in this ep is very obscure, especially since Sam could well outrank him EITHER as an officer, or as a civilian. I don't see her not being on the planet as a sign of not being the leader. After all, it wasn't a military mission, she was trying to complete the mission, not monitor the scientist (which, as you have stated, aren't usually monitored).
I also see as a sign that he does indeed take some of his orders from her.

Yeah, I messed up. I thought he was misremembered. IT was the bit where he said they'd been there a week.
As to her being the leader, like I said, to me, it seemed that Lee was in charge of the scientists and Carter was simply working WITH them, to work out the doorway.
Lee accepted her first reprimand, not cause she was in charge but cause
a)They hadn't been there that long and might have found something. Lee was being negative and he realised when she yelled at him
b)Sam Carter is a legend to the SGC science geeks
c)She is smarter than him. He may have felt like that entitled her to snap a little at him
d)He recognised she was upset and emotional and he knew that arguing would simply make her madder.
Later on, when she goes off again, he calmly says, 'we're leaving' and leaves.
He doesn't appear to have gotten into a snit or gotten a power trip, he has the air of a man who did his job and isn't going to hang around on a fools errand.
Again, I can't seem him mouthing off to Carter like that if she WAS in charge.

Collateral Damage: Mitchell goes off with a relative stranger on a foreign planet, YES mission protocol states he needs to tell his team where he is. Mission protocol also states not to accept invitations from lovely women. Not 24/7, but leaving the team on an off world mission to go with one of the aliens, no matter who, requires the member to inform the team.
Not doing so DID show poor judgment. If I were his CO (which I'm not)regardless of what happened I would have reprimanded him. And gone in to severe detail about what COULD have happened.
If I were on SG-1 I would suspect trouble, simply by virtue of the fact that I'd trust Mitchell enough not to go wondering off with an alien woman without telling me.

I dunno about this. He didn't seem to plan to spend the whole night with her.
The team saw him leave.
Going off with her may have been a little silly, but it's hardly the be all end all mistake it's been made out to be.
Furthermore, Mitchell goes through considerable pain and mental distress to prove himself innocent. If he made a mistake, he certainly paid for it.

Menace (Reese): Jack had no reason to believe the situation had changed. Yes, he COULD have yelled, but there is nothing actually WRONG with him not. (IMO, Daniel seemed to agree with him in the end.)

I can see Jack's point of view. I really can. I guess I'm just more of a Daniel person.
To me, the fact Daniel was there, alive, still talking, means that maybe killing her wasn't the only option.
LIke I siad, the problem was Jack prejudice. (And I loved that about the character btw. That instinctive distrust of anything that had been an enemy or wasn't human)

The Other Side: Yes, Stargate does have a rather bad case of ethnocentrism, but they were trying to turn the tide of the war towards the "good guys". Think of it (if you like) like dropping the A-bombs, they had to cause this much damage to keep the good guys from loose "this much". That shows Jack IS a moral man rather than not. ((Just another way of looking at it. I myself wrote it off as ethnocentrism and the need for explosions. But I know its annoying to see people write things they don't like off as "TPTB at work".))

Oh I agreed with what Jack did. Racism really really annoys me.
However, looking at it from an objective view point, he killed a civilisation and lost the SGC the tech it had bartered for.
To me, that's a tick in the 'bad' column.
Am I making sense with this?

[Lightsabre]

The protocol in The Scourge was tractical; every off world military officer in the SGC should have known about it. There is nothing science about it. I'm sorry, its not up for debate. If you want to debate whether TPTB KNEW it, well then.... But its not a science thing. (wait, Dr. Lee was in Scourge?)

Yup, Lee was there.
Landry goes to him to make the bug posion, Lee tells him that using the protocol will kill any humans on the planet.
Then Carter starts talking about it.
Daniel and Teal'c have been at the SGC for years and they didn't seem to know it either, like I said above.
I think it was a science thing.

[ParadoxRealities]

I think we've hit rock bottom on the actual debate then, haven't we? All down to interpretation. Suppose that's why its TV.

Scrouge: Sorry, I was think about IN the cave . But there's nothing science about the protocol (implementation, yes, statement, no). Its an SGC protocol, and any off world team member would have to know it, its vital to their survival. It makes sense that Lee would also know about it, but not that Mitchell wouldn't. Having observed the difference between civilian scientist and military knowledge of the mission first hand, its just the way it works. Every officer needed to know it, and every officer should have. Take it how you will, maybe someone else can explain it better.

[Lightsabre]

I think we've hit rock bottom on the actual debate then, haven't we? All down to interpretation. Suppose that's why its TV.

Yeah I guess. Still you've been fun to argue against. Always willing to listen.
That's becoming rare.

Scrouge: Sorry, I was think about IN the cave . But there's nothing science about the protocol (implementation, yes, statement, no). Its an SGC protocol, and any off world team member would have to know it, its vital to their survival. It makes sense that Lee would also know about it, but not that Mitchell wouldn't. Having observed the difference between civilian scientist and military knowledge of the mission first hand, its just the way it works. Every officer needed to know it, and every officer should have. Take it how you will, maybe someone else can explain it better.

I do take your point. But Daniel and Teal'c don't appear to know about it either.
The only specific people we've seen who know about it are Sam(scientist), Lee(scientist) and Landry(Base commander).
I agree all off world team members SHOULD know about it. However, it appears here only ones with a science background do.
That's all I was saying by 'science' thing.

[ParadoxRealities]

Yeah I guess. Still you've been fun to argue against. Always willing to listen.
That's becoming rare.

I do take your point. But Daniel and Teal'c don't appear to know about it either.
The only specific people we've seen who know about it are Sam(scientist), Lee(scientist) and Landry(Base commander).
I agree all off world team members SHOULD know about it. However, it appears here only ones with a science background do.
That's all I was saying by 'science' thing.

why thank you. you're not bad yourself

And I suppose I can see your angle. Daniel figured would never know anything like that, and I assumed Teal'c did and was just being Teal'c by not talking until needed. He probably knew Sam knew it. With those 2 (however weak you precive them) statments to back me up, I stand by the fact that Mitchell is a Lt. Col. and has been at the SGC for almost a year, and since officers SHOULD know it, he should too. but again, we're assuming by how we see the show. That and I trust the military as a whole, and you don't (as much), but I can hardly blame you for that! (sorry if that put words in your mouth, it's how I see it.)